QuoteReplyTopic: Who is the next member of the atomic club? Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 23:10
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon
Stop asking the same question. Yes it is al Qaeda, and also other terrorist groups coming from bordering nations. It is like "Doctors without borders" except it is "terrorist without borders"
Personally i prefer "Doctors without Borders" Just sounds nicer
i think you mean "reporters without borders" not "doctors without borders"....
and i dont expect someone who thinks iranians are arabs, ahmadinejad is the leader of iran, and that you dont need to enrich uranium to use it as energy, to be able to answer those questions.
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon
Also, the world really does not need another country with nukes. It really doesnt
exactly, and its not going to get another one. i think north korea will be the last for a long long time.
but personally, i think countries that already have nukes should give them up, like israel.
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
the amount of war heads is not what makes a country stronger.
We've all heard the expression about making rubble bounce but the
numerical superiority both the US and the USSR strove for wasn't just
silly posturing. Here's two articles from opposite viewpoints
outlining the very thing.
First one by a Harvard Prof. written in the late 70s:
The Communist revolution eliminated that segment of Russian society
that was most Westernized, and put the peasant class in power. History
had taught the Russian peasant that cunning and coercion assured survival;
cunning when weak; cunning and coercion when strong. "Not to use force
when one had it indicated some inner weakness." That concept of the use
of power and the fact that, since 1914, the USSR has lost up to 60,000,000
citizens through war, famine, and purges and survived has no doubt conditioned
the development of Soviet nuclear strategy. Soviet nuclear
doctrine, expounded in a wide range of Russian defense literature, has
five related elements:
Preemption (first strike).
Quantitative superiority (a requisite for preemption and because the war
may last for some time, even though the initial hours are decisive).
Counterforce targeting.
Combined-arms operations to supplement nuclear strikes.
Defense, which has been almost totally neglected by the U. S. under its
concept of mutual deterrence.
Soviet Doctrine is both a continuation and an extension of the Soviet belief
that all military forces -- nuclear and conventional -- serve a political
purpose as guarantor of internal control and an instrument for territorial
expansion. Thus, large military forces are accepted in the Soviet Union
as a rational capital investment, regardless of their impact on social
programs.
Soviet writing on nuclear strategy has been largely ignored, or has
been ridiculed in this country because if its jingoism and crudity, and
the obscurity of Communist semantics. It is a strategy of "compellance,"
in contrast to the U. S. doctrine of deterrence.
But "... the relationship of Soviet doctrine and Soviet deployments
(is) sufficiently close to suggest that ignoring or not taking seriously
Soviet military doctrine may have very detrimental effects on U. S. security."
Finally, "... as long as the Soviets persist in adhering to the Clausewitzian
maxim on the function of war, mutual deterrence does not really exist.
And unilateral deterrence is feasible only if we understand the Soviet
war-winning strategy and make it impossible for them to succeed."
http://www.etpv.org/bills_page/nuclear.html
The second from contemporary Russian sources:
The Nuclear Parity Concept: Its Emergence and Evolution
Immediately after World War II, the USA, which
was the first to develop nuclear weapons and, thus, left behind the
rest of the world, began to build up its nuclear arsenal to ensure its
superiority in this area. This course of action was aimed at achieving
military superiority over the USSR so that the USA could dictate the rules of the game
and destroy the USSR, under certain circumstances, at least, as a
developed state. The USA had such an opportunity for several years
before the USSR constructed its own nuclear weapons and delivery
systems.
As soon as the Soviets acquired nuclear arms, and
hence the ability for retaliatory strike, the USA accelerated the pace
of nuclear build-up. In the mid-1960s the US nuclear arsenal reached
its peak and amounted to more than 30,000 warheads. The possession of
such a huge nuclear arsenal was necessary to disarm the enemy
with a nuclear strike. At the same time, nuclear weapons were supposed
to play a decisive role in resolving armed conflicts. The US nuclear
superiority in the 1960s implied that an exchange of counter-force
strikes (i.e. strikes against military targets only) during a limited
nuclear conflict would have led to the US victory. Hence, any
retaliatory counter-force strikes of the Soviet Union would have only
deteriorated its situation because of the remaining US nuclear arsenal.
Thus it was only natural that the Soviet nuclear concept, approved in
the early 1960s, was based on the principle of unlimited retaliatory
strike, i.e. any US counter-force strike would have resulted in the
Soviet counter-value strike to inflict unacceptable damage.
This concept met the interests of nuclear deterrence but, evidently,
the decision-making barrier for a total retaliatory strike was quite
high, since one could hardly compare the damage from the first strike
with the damage inflicted by the second strike. This balance of power
affected the entire system of political relations and weakened the
position of the USSR.
Obviously, Moscow was not satisfied with the
situation that a total retaliatory strike, and hence unlimited nuclear
war (equal to suicide), was the only response in the case of an
escalating limited conflict. Thus, the USSR made titanic efforts and
achieved relative nuclear parity with the USA in the early 1970s. The
system of strategic nuclear weapons created a state of strategic
balance in which each party possessed the capability to inflict unacceptable damage in
a retaliatory strike the essence of the concept of mutually assured
destruction. At the same time, at this stage, neither party,
theoretically, had the ability to gain superiority after exchanging
counter-force strikes. However, the USA continued to seek such
superiority. The most vivid example was the US forward deployment of
nuclear forces in Europe and the Reagan doctrine of limited nuclear war.
The concept of mutually assured destruction provided
for a strategic balance and each party was interested only in
maintaining the ability to inflict unacceptable damage in a retaliatory strike. This situation implied that the parties would not strive to obtain the ability of making a first disarming strike, since such a change would have destabilized the balance and provoked the other party to make a preemptive strike.
Nonetheless, the balance concerning total nuclear
war did not ensure a balance concerning lower-scale conflicts. Such
conflicts included the aforementioned exchange of counter-force strikes
and conventional arms conflicts. When TNW emerged, the conflict with
the use of TNW joined this group in an intermediate position.
TNW were, in fact, NATO's response to WTO's
conventional superiority in Europe. For European NATO members, TNW
guaranteed US participation in defense of an armed conflict. Meanwhile,
the USA, making plans to use TNW in conventional conflicts, believed it
could contain the conflict within Europe. The USSR rapidly deployed its
TNW in response (the adequacy of this response can be called into
question). Thus, the unstable situation concerning conventional forces
in Europe transformed into a nuclear balance. However, this balance was
asymmetric, since TNW deployed in Europe belonged to the USA and were
targeted at the USSR. The US territory, at the same time, could not be
reached by the Soviet tactical nukes. Nonetheless, stability concerning
conventional and tactical arms in Europe played a positive part in
achieving and maintaining global balance.
One of the most important instruments for achieving
strategic balance (or unilateral superiority) is strategic defense.
Strategic defense is known for its paradoxical nature: the concept of
mutually assured destruction implies that the protection of valued
facilities (cities) is a destabilizing and aggressive act, since it
deprives the enemy of inflicting unacceptable damage with a
retaliatory strike. At the same time, activities to enhance the
viability of offensive nuclear means are stabilizing and defensive by
nature, since they help to preserve the potential for retaliatory
strike.
The development of missile defense systems is an
expensive action with unpredictable results. The creation of such a
system would have provided an impetus for an arms race in this area and
in adjacent spheres, i.e. the modernization of offensive means
(equipping them with gadgets to penetrate the defense), the build-up
and development of anti-defense systems, anti-anti-defense systems,
etc. Moreover, the development of missile defense systems to counter a
massive nuclear strike implies the commissioning of means that have
been tested in conditions significantly different from the would-be
situation of their deployment and hence, have an unknown efficiency.
Therefore, the parties lose stability factors as important as certainty
about the efficiency of its own means and information about the
capabilities of the enemy. This understanding resulted in the 1972 ABM
Treaty with indefinite term.
However, in the mid-1980s, the USA made another
attempt to gain superiority with the help of SDI (whose co-lateral
damage was the Soviet involvement in a new extremely expensive arms
race). If one presumes that the USSR had survived in this arms race and
the parties had implemented all measures relating to the deployment of
such systems (development of the systems, modernization of offensive
means, development of counteraction means, etc.), the planet would have
found itself at a new higher, more unstable, and far more dangerous
level of nuclear stockpiles.
The changes that have occurred during the last 10
years have significantly changed the military-political situation in
the world and have had a positive impact on the strategic balance. Some
of these changes can be regarded as positive (e.g. the end of
ideological confrontation); others are negative (the collapse of the
Soviet Union and the disintegration of one of the poles). However, all
these changes inevitably result in a number of complicated and
dangerous transitions to a new system of international relations.
Their perspective may be totally different but both sources understand the significance of numerical superiority.
And as for one of your other points, the US isn't
invading North Korea right now because it'd be very pointless.
They ruffle more Chinese feathers with no real gain in exchange.
The DPRK can blackmail for a while but if it comes to preparing
for a war with the US, the astounding gap in the military power isn't
going to be compensated for by a dozen warheads and a handful of
largely inaccurate long range missles.
i understand what your saying, but again, with all those nukes, neither side would ever use more than a couple hundred, because more would literraly destroy the earth!
if numerical superiority is so important, like you say, then why did the US cut back its nuclear arsenal without any fear?
once you ahve a couple hundred nukes, thats all you need, nothing more.
israel is perfectly content iwth teh 200 to 300 nukes they have, they dont want more, nor do they need more.
(i assume they dont want more, and i assume that they are not building more, the israeli's could be.)
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
Yeah I agree, no one really planned to use their whole aresenal of
strategic nukes. The whole idea of having more than the other
side had more to do with being able to have more weapons in reserve for
a retaliatory strike even if they took out most of your primary
installations in a first strike. I'm actually reading a book
right now which has a section in it about Carter's, Brezhnev's etc.
detente policies. Perhaps I'll have more to say when I'm done
Since everyone is getting nukes, France should secretly develop biological weapon. What a wonderful option would that be. It is unfortunate the bleeding heart had stopped the development of that splendid super-weapon, seriously reducing France's ability to devastate enemy nations
I doubt a missile of such a small size can have a range of 12,000 km, unless that 6 warheads is of very low yield.
The latest French missile will have a range of around 10,000 km with a payload of 16 warheads, about three time that of a chinese missile but still it's a much bigger and expensive missile.
Since everyone is getting nukes, France should secretly develop biological weapon. What a wonderful option would that be. It is unfortunate the bleeding heart had stopped the development of that splendid super-weapon, seriously reducing France's ability to devastate enemy nations
france already has chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons.
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
Since everyone is getting nukes, France should secretly develop biological weapon. What a wonderful option would that be. It is unfortunate the bleeding heart had stopped the development of that splendid super-weapon, seriously reducing France's ability to devastate enemy nations
france already has chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons.
No, France have neither chemical or biological weapon, although she has the potential to develop them. BW program was abandoned after the fall of France in 1940.
The only program dealing with weapon of mass destruction going now in France is the Megajoule laser to simulate nuclear fission. The technology can be used to create smaller tactical nukes.
I doubt a missile of such a small size can have a range of 12,000 km, unless that 6 warheads is of very low yield.
The latest French missile will have a range of around 10,000 km with a payload of 16 warheads, about three time that of a chinese missile but still it's a much bigger and expensive missile.
the smaller the size the icbm is, the more technologically advanced it is.
old icbm and nuclear weapons are of a much bigger size.
such as the following Chinese DF-5 deployed in 1971:
It has a range of 15,000 km and it is of a much bigger size.
yet, it is not more technologically advanced. modern nuclear icbms are generally of a much smaller size.
big icbms such as the DF-5 can only be silo based. DF-45 can be both silo and mobile based. The Chinese DF-35 can be submarined based as well with a range of 8000 km.
no mater how much you want to doubt, well, it's a fact. the DF-45 isn't even the longest range icbm china has. it is the latest variant, but not the longest range. it is more mobile and flexible than the DF-5 and has a longer range than the DF-35. The Chinese DF-5 from the 70's is the one with the longest range which is around 15000 km.
what is the code of the french icbm you are talking about?
as far as i know, the longest range icbm france has is the french MSBS M45 with a range of only 6000 km deployed in 1996. It is submarine based and can only carry 6 nuclear warheads as well.
bigger doesn't mean better. bigger in many cases actually means less flexibility. and no one knows how much each icbm costs, but the chinese seem to have an upper hand than the french in term of its strategic forces.
beside, currently, there are no icbms in the world that can carry more than 10 warheads. the us LGM-118A Peacekeeper can carry 10 warheads and it's the newest icbm in the world. there are no icbms that can carry 16 warheads as u indicated. do u mean 16 icbms can fit into a submarine or a missile can carry 16 warheads? i believe you have mixed it up. a nuclear strategic submarine can carry around 16 nuclear missles.
Edited by Sino Defender
"Whoever messes with the heavenly middle kingdom, no matter how far s/he escapes, s/he is to be slaughtered"
Since everyone is getting nukes, France should secretly develop biological weapon. What a wonderful option would that be. It is unfortunate the bleeding heart had stopped the development of that splendid super-weapon, seriously reducing France's ability to devastate enemy nations
Chemical weapons would be better. Contagious germs have as much of a chance as killing your own side as killing the other side. The only real time I think it would be useful to use biological weapons is if you're in a large total war against an enemy extremely distant from you. Like if the United States and the USSR had gone to war, both sides could have used biological weapons against the other's homeland with minimal or nonexistent contamination of their own homelands. Nowadays if France spread a terrible disease within one of their enemies' homelands, there's a good chance it would spread like SARS did and kill Frenchmen themselves.
Advanced nerve, blood, and vesicant agents would be a wiser investment in my humble opinion. New delivery systems would also be interesting to pursue, such as UAV chemical agent dispensers.
France would have more opportunities to actually use them, and her enemies would realize that there would therefore be a greater chance of France deploying such weapons against them.
Note: This is not to say toxins are worth looking into, they're just toxic chemicals assembled by organisms as opposed by chemists.
I doubt a missile of such a small size can have a range of 12,000 km, unless that 6 warheads is of very low yield.
The latest French missile will have a range of around 10,000 km with a payload of 16 warheads, about three time that of a chinese missile but still it's a much bigger and expensive missile.
the smaller the size the icbm is, the more technologically advanced it is.
old icbm and nuclear weapons are of a much bigger size.
such as the following Chinese DF-5 deployed in 1971:
It has a range of 15,000 km and it is of a much bigger size.
yet, it is not more technologically advanced. modern nuclear icbms are generally of a much smaller size.
big icbms such as the DF-5 can only be silo based. DF-45 can be both silo and mobile based. The Chinese DF-35 can be submarined based as well with a range of 8000 km.
no mater how much you want to doubt, well, it's a fact. the DF-45 isn't even the longest range icbm china has. it is the latest variant, but not the longest range. it is more mobile and flexible than the DF-5 and has a longer range than the DF-35. The Chinese DF-5 from the 70's is the one with the longest range which is around 15000 km.
what is the code of the french icbm you are talking about?
as far as i know, the longest range icbm france has is the french MSBS M45 with a range of only 6000 km deployed in 1996. It is submarine based and can only carry 6 nuclear warheads as well.
bigger doesn't mean better. bigger in many cases actually means less flexibility. and no one knows how much each icbm costs, but the chinese seem to have an upper hand than the french in term of its strategic forces.
beside, currently, there are no icbms in the world that can carry more than 10 warheads. the us LGM-118A Peacekeeper can carry 10 warheads and it's the newest icbm in the world. there are no icbms that can carry 16 warheads as u indicated. do u mean 16 icbms can fit into a submarine or a missile can carry 16 warheads? i believe you have mixed it up. a nuclear strategic submarine can carry around 16 nuclear missles.
I made a mistake in the number of warheads, well I've confused number of warheads per missile with number of missiles per sub.
What missile I'm talking about: the M51 with a range in btw 8,000 km and 11, 000 km carrying 6 Tn 75 or 10 TNO (each independently targetable). unit cost 4 billion dollar.
And you got to be kidding by saying the primitive cold war chinese ballistic missiles is strategically superior to the French one.
French technology in that field is second only to the US, and emphasis is put on the stealthy MIRV rather than a delivery system. French MIRV can penetrate anything. In that area, the chinese are light years backward.
Yea the bigger the nukes the more fuel and more the range, it is simple logic. You can use a smaller for the same range as an older missile only if the fuel is more efficient.
And the statistic released on french nukes is always inferior of what they really are for tactical reason. For instance, it the Triomphant max depth is reported as 300 m but the real figure will twice that number.
Chinese and Russian on other hand tend to exxagerate their statistics to mask the inferiority of the weaponry. THis has been proven over and over by spies during the cold war.
The chinese has only 20 strategic nuclear missile, the rest is junk. On the other hand France can atomise at will 384 chinese cities.
Since everyone is getting nukes, France should secretly develop biological weapon. What a wonderful option would that be. It is unfortunate the bleeding heart had stopped the development of that splendid super-weapon, seriously reducing France's ability to devastate enemy nations
Chemical weapons would be better. Contagious germs have as much of a chance as killing your own side as killing the other side. The only real time I think it would be useful to use biological weapons is if you're in a large total war against an enemy extremely distant from you. Like if the United States and the USSR had gone to war, both sides could have used biological weapons against the other's homeland with minimal or nonexistent contamination of their own homelands. Nowadays if France spread a terrible disease within one of their enemies' homelands, there's a good chance it would spread like SARS did and kill Frenchmen themselves.
Advanced nerve, blood, and vesicant agents would be a wiser investment in my humble opinion. New delivery systems would also be interesting to pursue, such as UAV chemical agent dispensers.
France would have more opportunities to actually use them, and her enemies would realize that there would therefore be a greater chance of France deploying such weapons against them.
Note: This is not to say toxins are worth looking into, they're just toxic chemicals assembled by organisms as opposed by chemists.
Well chemical weapon from my POV is the worst WMD. On a tactical level chemical weapon can be useful but not on a strategic level. Simply because chemical tends to diffuse and become ineffective over a wide area and therefore an extremely impractical amount of chemical is needed to destroy 30% of an enemy population.
Biological agents on the other is a superb weapon, needed only in minute quantities. It can be discreetly spread onto enemy territory while you've already immunised your own population (secretly or by some kind of conspiracy by spreading a similar but less lethatl agents within your own population). By the time the enemy figure out the vaccine, his country will be in turmoil. Also, with technology, you can tailor your biological agents to have a short latent period, killing say over 24 hrs rather than days. this way if the germs spread in your country, you can easily quarantine the diseased, halting the spread.
So you need to design carefully the agents and you can choose an immediate animal host that doesn't exist in your country as vector of transmission.
I doubt a missile of such a small size can have a range of 12,000 km, unless that 6 warheads is of very low yield.
The latest French missile will have a range of around 10,000 km with a payload of 16 warheads, about three time that of a chinese missile but still it's a much bigger and expensive missile.
the smaller the size the icbm is, the more technologically advanced it is.
old icbm and nuclear weapons are of a much bigger size.
such as the following Chinese DF-5 deployed in 1971:
It has a range of 15,000 km and it is of a much bigger size.
yet, it is not more technologically advanced. modern nuclear icbms are generally of a much smaller size.
big icbms such as the DF-5 can only be silo based. DF-45 can be both silo and mobile based. The Chinese DF-35 can be submarined based as well with a range of 8000 km.
no mater how much you want to doubt, well, it's a fact. the DF-45 isn't even the longest range icbm china has. it is the latest variant, but not the longest range. it is more mobile and flexible than the DF-5 and has a longer range than the DF-35. The Chinese DF-5 from the 70's is the one with the longest range which is around 15000 km.
what is the code of the french icbm you are talking about?
as far as i know, the longest range icbm france has is the french MSBS M45 with a range of only 6000 km deployed in 1996. It is submarine based and can only carry 6 nuclear warheads as well.
bigger doesn't mean better. bigger in many cases actually means less flexibility. and no one knows how much each icbm costs, but the chinese seem to have an upper hand than the french in term of its strategic forces.
beside, currently, there are no icbms in the world that can carry more than 10 warheads. the us LGM-118A Peacekeeper can carry 10 warheads and it's the newest icbm in the world. there are no icbms that can carry 16 warheads as u indicated. do u mean 16 icbms can fit into a submarine or a missile can carry 16 warheads? i believe you have mixed it up. a nuclear strategic submarine can carry around 16 nuclear missles.
I made a mistake in the number of warheads, well I've confused number of warheads per missile with number of missiles per sub.
What missile I'm talking about: the M51 with a range in btw 8,000 km and 11, 000 km carrying 6 Tn 75 or 10 TNO (each independently targetable). unit cost 4 billion dollar.
And you got to be kidding by saying the primitive cold war chinese ballistic missiles is strategically superior to the French one.
French technology in that field is second only to the US, and emphasis is put on the stealthy MIRV rather than a delivery system. French MIRV can penetrate anything. In that area, the chinese are light years backward.
Yea the bigger the nukes the more fuel and more the range, it is simple logic. You can use a smaller for the same range as an older missile only if the fuel is more efficient.
And the statistic released on french nukes is always inferior of what they really are for tactical reason. For instance, it the Triomphant max depth is reported as 300 m but the real figure will twice that number.
Chinese and Russian on other hand tend to exxagerate their statistics to mask the inferiority of the weaponry. THis has been proven over and over by spies during the cold war.
The chinese has only 20 strategic nuclear missile, the rest is junk. On the other hand France can atomise at will 384 chinese cities.
Country
Suspected Strategic Nuclear Weapons
Suspected Non-Strategic Nuclear Weapons
Suspected Total Nuclear Weapons
China
20
390
410
France
384
80
464
India
0
60+?
60+?
Israel
0
200+?
200+?
Pakistan
15-25?
0
15-25?
Russia
~ 6,000
~ 4,000
~10,000
United Kingdom
185
0
185
United States
7,200
~ 3,300
~10,500
i am not saying the DF-5 is superior, but the DF-45 is. DF-5 is from the cold war era, but the DF-45 has just been deployed. It also can carry 6 independently targeted warhead as well with a longer range than the french ICBM.
Russian and the US are around the same in term of technology of nuclear warheads. Russian nuclear and space forces are superior to France and are superior to the US in some areas such as the space station.
Stealth is not the right word to use on ICBM since ICBMs are launched into space and then return to earth to hit the target. They are not like traditional missiles that fly in air. Therefore, it's not a matter of being stealthy or not. I can see you lack some military knowledge.
just so u know, russian armed forces are superior to the French in both traditional and strategic weaponry. They are second to the US.
After all, Russia, US, China all got much larger defence budget than France. ICBM technology is related to space technology. China, USA, and Russia are the only countries that can perform manned space flights.
Edited by Sino Defender
"Whoever messes with the heavenly middle kingdom, no matter how far s/he escapes, s/he is to be slaughtered"
I doubt a missile of such a small size can have a range of 12,000 km, unless that 6 warheads is of very low yield.
The latest French missile will have a range of around 10,000 km with a payload of 16 warheads, about three time that of a chinese missile but still it's a much bigger and expensive missile.
the smaller the size the icbm is, the more technologically advanced it is.
old icbm and nuclear weapons are of a much bigger size.
such as the following Chinese DF-5 deployed in 1971:
It has a range of 15,000 km and it is of a much bigger size.
yet, it is not more technologically advanced. modern nuclear icbms are generally of a much smaller size.
big icbms such as the DF-5 can only be silo based. DF-45 can be both silo and mobile based. The Chinese DF-35 can be submarined based as well with a range of 8000 km.
no mater how much you want to doubt, well, it's a fact. the DF-45 isn't even the longest range icbm china has. it is the latest variant, but not the longest range. it is more mobile and flexible than the DF-5 and has a longer range than the DF-35. The Chinese DF-5 from the 70's is the one with the longest range which is around 15000 km.
what is the code of the french icbm you are talking about?
as far as i know, the longest range icbm france has is the french MSBS M45 with a range of only 6000 km deployed in 1996. It is submarine based and can only carry 6 nuclear warheads as well.
bigger doesn't mean better. bigger in many cases actually means less flexibility. and no one knows how much each icbm costs, but the chinese seem to have an upper hand than the french in term of its strategic forces.
beside, currently, there are no icbms in the world that can carry more than 10 warheads. the us LGM-118A Peacekeeper can carry 10 warheads and it's the newest icbm in the world. there are no icbms that can carry 16 warheads as u indicated. do u mean 16 icbms can fit into a submarine or a missile can carry 16 warheads? i believe you have mixed it up. a nuclear strategic submarine can carry around 16 nuclear missles.
I made a mistake in the number of warheads, well I've confused number of warheads per missile with number of missiles per sub.
What missile I'm talking about: the M51 with a range in btw 8,000 km and 11, 000 km carrying 6 Tn 75 or 10 TNO (each independently targetable). unit cost 4 billion dollar.
And you got to be kidding by saying the primitive cold war chinese ballistic missiles is strategically superior to the French one.
French technology in that field is second only to the US, and emphasis is put on the stealthy MIRV rather than a delivery system. French MIRV can penetrate anything. In that area, the chinese are light years backward.
Yea the bigger the nukes the more fuel and more the range, it is simple logic. You can use a smaller for the same range as an older missile only if the fuel is more efficient.
And the statistic released on french nukes is always inferior of what they really are for tactical reason. For instance, it the Triomphant max depth is reported as 300 m but the real figure will twice that number.
Chinese and Russian on other hand tend to exxagerate their statistics to mask the inferiority of the weaponry. THis has been proven over and over by spies during the cold war.
The chinese has only 20 strategic nuclear missile, the rest is junk. On the other hand France can atomise at will 384 chinese cities.
Country
Suspected Strategic Nuclear Weapons
Suspected Non-Strategic Nuclear Weapons
Suspected Total Nuclear Weapons
China
20
390
410
France
384
80
464
India
0
60+?
60+?
Israel
0
200+?
200+?
Pakistan
15-25?
0
15-25?
Russia
~ 6,000
~ 4,000
~10,000
United Kingdom
185
0
185
United States
7,200
~ 3,300
~10,500
i am not saying the DF-5 is superior, but the DF-45 is. DF-5 is from the cold war era, but the DF-45 has just been deployed. It also can carry 6 independently targeted warhead as well with a longer range than the french ICBM.
Russian and the US are around the same in term of technology of nuclear warheads. Russian nuclear and space forces are superior to France and are superior to the US in some areas such as the space station.
After all, Russia, US, China all got much larger defence budget than France. ICBM technology is related to space technology. China, USA, and Russia are the only countries that can perform manned space flights.
No china and Russia don't have a larger defense budget than France (unless that $26 billion official figure china provides is much larger) . French defense budget is around $42 Billion dollar this year. France may have never been interested in manned flight but was the creator of ariane space agency, now part of the ESA. Ariane rockets are more advance than anything the chinese ones and have a very low failure rate as compared to any other rockets.
I doubt a missile of such a small size can have a range of 12,000 km, unless that 6 warheads is of very low yield.
The latest French missile will have a range of around 10,000 km with a payload of 16 warheads, about three time that of a chinese missile but still it's a much bigger and expensive missile.
the smaller the size the icbm is, the more technologically advanced it is.
old icbm and nuclear weapons are of a much bigger size.
such as the following Chinese DF-5 deployed in 1971:
It has a range of 15,000 km and it is of a much bigger size.
yet, it is not more technologically advanced. modern nuclear icbms are generally of a much smaller size.
big icbms such as the DF-5 can only be silo based. DF-45 can be both silo and mobile based. The Chinese DF-35 can be submarined based as well with a range of 8000 km.
no mater how much you want to doubt, well, it's a fact. the DF-45 isn't even the longest range icbm china has. it is the latest variant, but not the longest range. it is more mobile and flexible than the DF-5 and has a longer range than the DF-35. The Chinese DF-5 from the 70's is the one with the longest range which is around 15000 km.
what is the code of the french icbm you are talking about?
as far as i know, the longest range icbm france has is the french MSBS M45 with a range of only 6000 km deployed in 1996. It is submarine based and can only carry 6 nuclear warheads as well.
bigger doesn't mean better. bigger in many cases actually means less flexibility. and no one knows how much each icbm costs, but the chinese seem to have an upper hand than the french in term of its strategic forces.
beside, currently, there are no icbms in the world that can carry more than 10 warheads. the us LGM-118A Peacekeeper can carry 10 warheads and it's the newest icbm in the world. there are no icbms that can carry 16 warheads as u indicated. do u mean 16 icbms can fit into a submarine or a missile can carry 16 warheads? i believe you have mixed it up. a nuclear strategic submarine can carry around 16 nuclear missles.
I made a mistake in the number of warheads, well I've confused number of warheads per missile with number of missiles per sub.
What missile I'm talking about: the M51 with a range in btw 8,000 km and 11, 000 km carrying 6 Tn 75 or 10 TNO (each independently targetable). unit cost 4 billion dollar.
And you got to be kidding by saying the primitive cold war chinese ballistic missiles is strategically superior to the French one.
French technology in that field is second only to the US, and emphasis is put on the stealthy MIRV rather than a delivery system. French MIRV can penetrate anything. In that area, the chinese are light years backward.
Yea the bigger the nukes the more fuel and more the range, it is simple logic. You can use a smaller for the same range as an older missile only if the fuel is more efficient.
And the statistic released on french nukes is always inferior of what they really are for tactical reason. For instance, it the Triomphant max depth is reported as 300 m but the real figure will twice that number.
Chinese and Russian on other hand tend to exxagerate their statistics to mask the inferiority of the weaponry. THis has been proven over and over by spies during the cold war.
The chinese has only 20 strategic nuclear missile, the rest is junk. On the other hand France can atomise at will 384 chinese cities.
Country
Suspected Strategic Nuclear Weapons
Suspected Non-Strategic Nuclear Weapons
Suspected Total Nuclear Weapons
China
20
390
410
France
384
80
464
India
0
60+?
60+?
Israel
0
200+?
200+?
Pakistan
15-25?
0
15-25?
Russia
~ 6,000
~ 4,000
~10,000
United Kingdom
185
0
185
United States
7,200
~ 3,300
~10,500
i am not saying the DF-5 is superior, but the DF-45 is. DF-5 is from the cold war era, but the DF-45 has just been deployed. It also can carry 6 independently targeted warhead as well with a longer range than the french ICBM.
Russian and the US are around the same in term of technology of nuclear warheads. Russian nuclear and space forces are superior to France and are superior to the US in some areas such as the space station.
After all, Russia, US, China all got much larger defence budget than France. ICBM technology is related to space technology. China, USA, and Russia are the only countries that can perform manned space flights.
No china and Russia don't have a larger defense budget than France. French defense budget is around $42 Billion dollar this year. France may have never been interested in manned flight but was the creator of ariane space agency, now part of the ESA. Ariane rockets are more advance than anything the chinese can and have a very low failure rate as compared to any other rocket.
China's defence budget of 2004 was 65 billions and it did not include r and d expenses.
and ur statement about ariane. for the past decade, it actually has had one of the highest failure rates in the world. it cannot carry manned spacecraft because of low capacity. the chinese changzheng rockets of different variants have a higher capacity and have a much higher success rate than the ariance. there hasnt been a failure for the last 38 times of launches.
Edited by Sino Defender
"Whoever messes with the heavenly middle kingdom, no matter how far s/he escapes, s/he is to be slaughtered"
I know this source but the official source say china defense is $26 billion. That source is only estimating chinese defense. Anyway the chinese army is way larger than the french one so much of its resources is spread to buy large amount of low tech equipment.
I know this source but the official source say china defense is $26 billion. That source is only estimating chinese defense. Anyway the chinese army is way larger than the french one so much of its resources is spread to buy large amount of low tech equipment.
the official defense budget does not include r&d and funds for purchasing weapons. in other countries, the defense budget includes funds for purchasing weapons. the 26 billion figure only contains cost to maintain the military such as pensions and maintence costs. that's why the real figure is much higher when the budge for r and d and equippment purchases is included.
well, today's chinese armed forces are not like 20 yrs ago. they are much more advanced and modern now. www.sinodefence.com
check out the website if ur interested.
"Whoever messes with the heavenly middle kingdom, no matter how far s/he escapes, s/he is to be slaughtered"
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