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Who is the next member of the atomic club?

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Ponce de Leon View Drop Down
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  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who is the next member of the atomic club?
    Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 22:30
Originally posted by prsn41ife

Originally posted by Zagros


If Iran really had a weapons programme, it would have simply withdrawn from teh NPT, quitelegally, when India and Pakistan went nuclear.



the west doesnt care about that, they want a weak iran, if they could, they would stop iran from making pistols too.


like the iranian negotiator said "just because the US as the strength to bring pain and suffering doesnt mean they are immune to it themselves, if they want it, then let the ball roll."


however, i dont want any iranians or americans to die, i would feel bad both ways...


but still "peaceful nuclear energy is our right!"




Peaceful energy is everybody's right. You are most certainly correct on that. But there is a problem with how Iran is getting it. You see..there are two types of uranium U233 and U235. The U233 is the element that you can find in your own backyard in the soil. This element is enough to power a nuclear reactor, giving you all the nuclear energy you need. U235 is much much much harder to get. It is mixed up with all the U233 and is the component with making nuclear bombs. This is the enriched Uranium, and investigations into this exposed this. Why does Iran persist in having enriched Uranium if the regular Uranium can provide all the nuclear energy you need?

--If anyone else discuessed this already i am liek.."Sorry"
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  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 22:30
Wait I am not sure  we are talking about the same thing.

Armenia has a Nuclear power plant that currently creates electricity. It has been put to work since the 1990's mainly due to the double blockade.

Does Turkey have a Nuclear power plant?
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  Quote erci Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 22:44
I was talking about plants for enriched uranium processing facilities not for power to be exact.

Turkey doesn't have nuclear power plants as of now but it will build 3 new power plants by 2015
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  Quote Qajar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 22:47

mamikon

I really don't want dissapoint you, but it's not serious to talk about "armenian nuclear weapon"

Economicly Armenia is the weakest country in the region and it's spend almoust 30% of their legal budget on military needs ( $125 mln), and it's a huge problem for Armenia and it's economy.

Russia will never help Armenia to buid nuclear weapon or to provide them with russian neclear weapon. It will never happened unless Russia and US became enemies and cold war will start again.

Sorry mate..., but if Turkey oneday will produce nuclear bomb, armenia can only accept this and live with this..sorry cavetanem

Shah Ismail I Sefevid - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasti of Iran.

Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar - the founder of the greatest azeri-turk ruler dinasty in Iran.
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  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 22:49
you dont need another power plant to enrich Uranium I believe.  At any rate,

right not Armenia is ahead of Turkey in nuclear power (even though its

broke (financially))
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  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 00:19
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon

Originally posted by prsn41ife

Originally posted by Zagros


If Iran really had a weapons programme, it would have simply withdrawn from teh NPT, quite legally, when India and Pakistan went nuclear.



the west doesnt care about that, they want a weak iran, if they could, they would stop iran from making pistols too.


like the iranian negotiator said "just because the US as the strength to bring pain and suffering doesnt mean they are immune to it themselves, if they want it, then let the ball roll."


however, i dont want any iranians or americans to die, i would feel bad both ways...


but still "peaceful nuclear energy is our right!"




Peaceful energy is everybody's right. You are most certainly correct on that. But there is a problem with how Iran is getting it. You see..there are two types of uranium U233 and U235. The U233 is the element that you can find in your own backyard in the soil. This element is enough to power a nuclear reactor, giving you all the nuclear energy you need. U235 is much much much harder to get. It is mixed up with all the U233 and is the component with making nuclear bombs. This is the enriched Uranium, and investigations into this exposed this. Why does Iran persist in having enriched Uranium if the regular Uranium can provide all the nuclear energy you need?

--If anyone else discuessed this already i am liek.."Sorry"

you need to enrich uranium to have uranium 233. that is why they need to enrich it.

"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 00:28
Originally posted by Qajar

mamikon

I really don't want dissapoint you, but it's not serious to talk about "armenian nuclear weapon"

Economicly Armenia is the weakest country in the region and it's spend almoust 30% of their legal budget on military needs ( $125 mln), and it's a huge problem for Armenia and it's economy.

Russia will never help Armenia to buid nuclear weapon or to provide them with russian neclear weapon. It will never happened unless Russia and US became enemies and cold war will start again.

Sorry mate..., but if Turkey oneday will produce nuclear bomb, armenia can only accept this and live with this..sorry cavetanem



haha ok

lets hope they done give it to Azerbaijan

wait why is it the weakest...Armenia is ahead of Azerbaijan and Georgia in all International indexes, and in some cases even ahead of Turkey (most cases actually )

I think this is turning into an Armenian-Turkey thing so I am not going to argue with you after this post.
 

Edited by mamikon
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  Quote Illuminati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 00:46
nuclear powr is the next big thing. I know Bush is pushing for an increase in nuclear power in the US, and Russia is getting into it more also. IN the future, with so many nuclear power plants popping up all over the world, it's going to be very hard to watch for nuclear weapon production. Right now it's easy as only a few nations have nuclear plants
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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 01:09

Uranium doesn't have any isotopes with a mass number of 233.  Natural Uranium ore is mostly U-238 and a little U-235, which is then enriched so the fraction of U-235 is greater.

Here is a list of methods by which uranium can be enriched: http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/intro/u-enrichment.htm

Also, if the Iranians wanted to prove to the world that they intend their project for peaceful purposes, they could develop a Pressurized Heavy Water Reactor which doesn't require any enrichment facilities.  Yet they seem intent on developing gigantic enrichment facilities.



Edited by Genghis
Member of IAEA
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 02:39

Originally posted by mamikon

At any rate,

right not Armenia is ahead of Turkey in nuclear power (even though its

broke (financially))

 

True, Turkey, does not have a nuclear power plant, but they are now planning to build one. With the recent interruptions in Russian gas flow, the need for nuclear energy becomes more pressing.

The problem is that the country is on an earthquake zone (as is Armenia by the way) so it is quite dangerous. Imagine the consequence if one of those nuclear power plants was to blow off

 



Edited by bg_turk
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 05:31
Pakistani nuclear technology: the best in the world.
Do we make the biggest bombs? No
Do we make the best delivery systems? No
We're the only people who can do it on 240V power.

Now all we need is 240V power... Maybe the Iranis have some?


Originally posted by Leonidas

not suprised about the pakistani help either, who havent they helped?

I take the opinion that either everyone should have nukes or no-one should. I don't think I am the only paki who thinks like this.

[QUOTE-RomiosArktos]There is i think a well-standing alliance between Pakistan and Turkey.I think that Pakistan has also recognised as a sovereign state the turkish-occupied north part of Cyprus.I am not sure though.Their regimes,Pakistan's and Turkey's are quite similar![/QUOTE] Yes Pakistan recognises TRNC

Originally posted by merced12

peaceful energy

iran have lot of petrols and gas

Yes, but you can't use either to produce electricity. What actual options are their nowadays to increase your electrical generation. The only scalable large generators are steam driven. We are still locked and tied to the steam engine. This means Coal, Nuclear and Oil. Gas and wind are small scale, solar too expensive, Hydro unscaleable.
Coal and Oil are dirty, and unfashionable. Nobody wants to be the bad guy and build a new Coal plant. So the Only option is nuclear.

Originally posted by Ponce de Leon


Peaceful energy is everybody's right. You are most certainly correct on that. But there is a problem with how Iran is getting it. You see..there are two types of uranium U233 and U235. The U233 is the element that you can find in your own backyard in the soil. This element is enough to power a nuclear reactor, giving you all the nuclear energy you need. U235 is much much much harder to get. It is mixed up with all the U233 and is the component with making nuclear bombs. This is the enriched Uranium, and investigations into this exposed this. Why does Iran persist in having enriched Uranium if the regular Uranium can provide all the nuclear energy you need?

Your nuclear physics fails you.
A nuclear reactor is effectively a slow bomb. In a bomb all neutrons that are released from a Urainium atom are free to collide with more uranium atoms. In a reactor rods of different materials (commonly water or carbon) are used to mop up the majority of neutrons controlling the reaction. U233 doesn't even exist. The common form of Urainium is U238. You cannot setup a chain reaction with U238, at the very least you need U235. Enriched Urainium is P239 (plutonium), which can be manufactured from U238. U235 is rare and expensive, which is why people prefer to enrich U238.


Originally posted by mamikon


you dont need another power plant to enrich Uranium I believe.

Yes you do. You need a breeder reactor. How do you think you enrich it? Stick the extra neutrons in by hand?

Originally posted by prsn41ife

you need to enrich uranium to have uranium 233. that is why they need to enrich it.

No. U233 doesn't exist. You need to enrich Uranium to ensure you have enough fissionable materials, not just reling on U235.

Edited by Omar al Hashim
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 07:55

Ay Omar, I got to agree

Not sure what AQ Khan actually sold, but the alleged selling was done in the early nineties, from wat it seems those countries havent produced any nukes as yet - I'm pretty sure Libya gave up on it. Most nuclear-capable countries have distributed some form of nuclear technology anyway, or at least suspected of selling something they shouldnt have.

The 240V power is the firing set?

 

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  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 09:23

Originally posted by Genghis

Also, if the Iranians wanted to prove to the world that they intend their project for peaceful purposes, they could develop a Pressurized Heavy Water Reactor which doesn't require any enrichment facilities.  Yet they seem intent on developing gigantic enrichment facilities.

why should iran sacrifice technological advancement just because the west says so.

heres an idea, why doesnt the USA and UK switch to heavy water reactors first, since they dont need anymore uranium.

Genghis, iran will get nuclear technology whether you like it or not, the USA can either be on good terms with iran, or on bad terms.

did you know that iran, in 2003, offered the USA to reopen diplomatic ties after 27 years, and work to being friends again?

the stupid a$$ bush administration said no. what morons. again, iran is asking the USA  to have diplomatic ties again in regards to iraq, and again the bush administration is saying no.

dont you see, the bush administration doesnt want peace, they want war, and they are doing everything they can to get war.

iran has:

1) allowed in inspectors.

2) allowed the inspectors to put cameras all over the place.

3) stopped enrichment for 2 years in hope of finding a solution.

4) offered to have part of its nuclear program in russia, while still maintaing a little part of it in iran.

5) given up many documents, parts, samples, and has admitted its past program to the IAEA.

6) only restarted enrichment with the consent of the IAEA, who came and removed the seals from natanz.

7) offered to pay the USA to build the nuclear power plants, so that it could be sure that iran wont make nukes.

the USA has rejected all of this.

its obvious the USA wants war and nothing less than war.

would a country that wanted to make nukes do all of that? would they have suspended enrichment for 2 years? would they have allowed their greatest enemy to build the nuclear power plants?

the fact of the matter is, iran has the technology, and it will use the technology, and it has the support of the public.  infact, never since the begining of the revolution have the mullahs had so much support by the public, both secular and religious, both democratic and theocratic.

 

"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 09:28

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim





Originally posted by merced12

peaceful energy

iran have lot of petrols and gas

Yes, but you can't use either to produce electricity. What actual options are their nowadays to increase your electrical generation. The only scalable large generators are steam driven. We are still locked and tied to the steam engine. This means Coal, Nuclear and Oil. Gas and wind are small scale, solar too expensive, Hydro unscaleable.
Coal and Oil are dirty, and unfashionable. Nobody wants to be the bad guy and build a new Coal plant. So the Only option is nuclear.

finally, some one who knows what he is talking about.

in the west, they make it seem like if a country has oil, they have energy. the fact is that it costs more money to build refineries, and to convert that oil into usable energy than to build nuclear reactors.

iran is a net importer of energy.  these oil producing countries dont make their own energy with it because they dont have the technology. they ship the oil to europe or USA, where they have the refineries and the technology to make that oil into gasoline and other products, and then these same oil producing countries have to buy gasoline.

governments like the bush administration arent telling you this. they want you to believe that oil=energy when it doesnt.

"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 10:09
Iran has allowed inspectors to come, but they have these cut and run policies that come afterwards. And i am sorry about the U-233 stuff i am not very good at physics . But i do know that you "do not" need enriched uranium to have a full functioning nuclear plant. And the fact of the matter that the leader of Iran is a bit unstable also causes concern for me and the rest of the world.

Some people believe that it is already too late to stop Iran from making the bomb anyway. And that, good fellows, scares me
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  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 10:14
you do have to enrich uranium for nuclear energy. why dont you go and read about the process first.
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 10:27
I talked with pysics teachers in my school, they were the ones who let me know about the entire Uranium process man
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 11:05

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Pakistani nuclear technology: the best in the world.
Do we make the biggest bombs? No
Do we make the best delivery systems? No
We're the only people who can do it on 240V power.

Hmm, what do you mean? Nuclear reactors usually deliver in the magnitude of 10-20kV. If you mean the end user output it doesn't have anything to do with nuclear technology, and that others doesn't use 240V is just a choice of standard (eg 230 was chosen in Europe). Iirc Australia and New Zealand and some countries in the Perisan Gulf use 240V.


Originally posted by prsn41ife

you need to enrich uranium to have uranium 233. that is why they need to enrich it.

No. U233 doesn't exist. You need to enrich Uranium to ensure you have enough fissionable materials, not just reling on U235. [/QUOTE]

It does, though not naturally on this planet. It occurs as a rest product in some reaction chains though. This is just nitpicking though

 

 

---

 

 

Anyhow, just to make some things clear: U-235 is what you need to get a useful reaction going; U-238 isn't suitable. Uranium occuring naturally consists of 0.3-0.7% (roughly) U-235 and the rest U-238. Ie not separated, like if 1% of all rocks of uranium in the ground was U-235 and 99% U-238, but ALL rocks have a certain percentage of either isotope. To use it as fuel in a plant you need to get the level of U-235 to reach some 5% (enrichment), while to use it as a bomb, that level need to be AT LEAST 20%, but preferably much higher.

(That goes for the common reactors, there are technology to use the waste, ie uranium rich in U-238 and natural uranium as well as thorium as fuel, though it isn't in use yet. )

 



Edited by Styrbiorn
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  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 11:30

Originally posted by Ponce de Leon

I talked with pysics teachers in my school, they were the ones who let me know about the entire Uranium process man

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/sci_nat/05/nuclear_fue l/html/enrichment.stm

for the last time, you have to enrich uranium to use it as energy! your physics teacher obviously doesnt know what hes talking about.

For uranium to work in a nuclear reactor it must be enriched to contain 2-3% uranium-235. Weapons-grade uranium must contain 90% or more u-235.

all iran wants to do is enrich it to use for power, but the USA says that once it has the capability to enrich it, theres nothing stopping it from enriching it more to get nukes.

with that mentality, then no country  should have nuclear reacotrs.

"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 11:35
Ok sure, 2-3% enriched Uranium is fine. The problem is "why" are they stockpiling so "much" of it. You are the devil's advocate on this one sir
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