Hijab vs. Niqaab

There are 2 things that I would like to ask, and the first concerns the above mentioned; where exactly do you think the generations of the community has learned how to practice faith? You said to learn from mostly the Sunni community; Sunnis traditionally follow Madhahib, schools of law. I don't know how familliar you are with 'Usul al-Fiqh if at all, but this is the basis of such a school. The schools use different sources, but all agree on the first 4: Qur'an, Sunnah (of the Prophet), Ijma and Qiyas.

The most relied upon way to retrieve the Sunnah of the Prophet are the 'Ahadith. All four schools rely on this, so if you learned from the Sunni community you indirectly learned from 'Ahadith. To follow the Sunnah through 'Ahadith does not mean one digs up the 'Ahadith himself or researches the books of Hadith, this is primarily the task for the `Ulema of Hadith (the Muhaddithun) and the `Ulema of Fiqh (the Fuqaha).

I'll give you an example of an alternative way, which is used in one school alongside with the 'Ahadith. This is the principle of Imam Malik, called `Amala Ahlul Madina, the works/practices of the people of Madina. he based themselves on their practices which he calls the living Sunnah, sometimes relied more upon them than on certain 'Ahadith. This is a principle in the Maliki school, and I'll give you an example pertaining to Salah. In the Maliki school, there is Ikhtilaf on the positioning of the arms. From the `Amala, Sadl (arms along the sides, like Shi`as do) is concluded and from 'Ahadith Qabd (one arm over another) is concluded. Imam Malik permits both, but his preferred position is Sadl and so you will find many Maliki Sunnis practices Sadl instead of Qabd.

Now you requested for evidences for prayer from 'Ahadith, for the Hanafi school you can find them in numerous books, even online. For example:

Sifatus Salah - Shaykh Muhammad Iliyas Faysal

The second question, you seem to have problems with Abu Huraira, which has enormous consequences, and as you seem to constaly rely on the Submitters/19ers of Rashid Khalifa, I would like to know your view on the following: they deny that the second of the Shahadatayn, namely 'Ashhadu 'anna Muhammadu r-Rasoulullaah (I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of God), is not part of Islam and this because it is supposed to be from a Hadith narrated by Abu Huraira. Is this your view as well?  

I have the nerve to ask you so many questions? I only ask you 2 questions, if your complaints would be for any other purpose than rhetoric you would simply not have answered at all. In fact, you didn't answer my second question; why is that? Do you agree with the submitters claim that the second of the Shahadatayn is not part of Islam, or don't you? It's a simple question.

I tried to be helpful by pointing out a book that offers evidences from 'Ahadith for prayer in the Hanafi school, but now I wouldn't be willing to say where in the Qur'an it says the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad is to be followed, right? I linked many works, it's all in there; do you want me to copy paste each verse that commands to obey the Messenger in here, so you can pretend to be a Mufassir and explain me how it means something else than following his Sunnah?

In any case, you didn't properly respond to the first question either and rather turned it into another attempt to disprove the value of `Ilmu l-Hadith. Who are you trying to convince?  You seem to be heavily confused whether you are denying the Sunnah of the Prophet or `Ilmu l-Hadith, if not rather both or haven't even made up your mind yet if any at all. But you do mention to take from the community, so i'll assume it's limited to Hadith. What does Hadith mean? When I say, so and so Hadthana such and such, what am I saying? I am saying that so an so has related to us such and such, and the process goes on for we relate it to others, and they to others. Thus the Sahaba relate it to the Tabi`oun (which includes Imam Abu Hanifa), the Tabi`oun to the Atba Tabi`oun (which includes the other three Fuqaha) and so forth. So where does the community get it from if not from Hadith, even if Muslim would have been born a century ago to collect it all in a book what does it change in the fact that the community gets it through Sanad?  

I have even the nerve to ask you another question, considering that things are unreliable from your perspective and the fact that the society of the Prophet was an oral one, how are you sure that anything we know, Muslim scholars and Orientalists alike, about all aspects of that society which are not mentioned in the Qur'an are reliable? Maybe we don't even have a history, made it's all just made up. Right? You don't have to respond, but for everyone to know respond to the question of the Shahadatayn. Is saying 'ashhadu 'anna Muhammadu r-rasoulullah part of the Shahada, or is it as the submitters claim, who you like to rely upon, from a Hadith frabricated by Abu Huraira? This is their claim: http://www.submission.org/true-shahada.html 

what do you mean by "my view versus your view"? its a discussion and mostly it has views against each others.but sure its your choice to end your responses or keep going here or in PMs. i dont see the difference its a discussion in an Intellectual discussion and i think its important for many to read. if you dont think so then do what you want and dont replay. its your choice to replay or not.

and i didnt mean to "nit" pick anything, if you felt so then i apologieze.

iam just trying to see it from your point of view and to do so i had to ask you questions. this is normal in any discussion.

yes thank you for presenting the details of the prayers which are mentioned in the Quran. by the way i knew them before you presented them, i just wanted to see how would you know how to pray like you are praying now from these verses?

now you mentioned the community part which i asked what are they, you said they are the Islamic community, i dont want to ask a question here where do you think this community got its prayer details from? i would say Hadiths  unless you have a different answer please do so.

this will make the community you are following is following the Hadiths too along with the Quran (which what most muslims around the world doing).

and from the above its simply saying that you are following the Hadiths in some way. and instead of calling it Hadiths you prefered to call it Community. i know this assumption still depend if the community you follow has other sources than Hadiths for their details.

i did reread history of your post and the Quran is avaiable to me in many ways and in many translations and the meaning of the words of the Quran are available to me through Arabic/Arabic dictionaries online and books at home, and the interpretation of the verses are available through Tafseer books of most famouse Sunnie sources (which are using Hadiths and actions of the prophet and his companions and their companions and the early scholars which includes Imams of Sunnie branches and after all these sometimes the author of the Tafseer says his opinion)

from the above paragraph i would say i have enough sources and idea of the religion. if needed more then i will just have to look though sites or just visit City Library or ask a trusted scholar who has to provide sources.

so i didnt deny the mentioning of prayers movements and sayings in the Quran.

what i said is that it doesn't has the order nor does it has the details, you agree with me on that since you said the rest of the details you learned from the community.

again i didnt deny that and i fully appreciate the Quran and i didnt say i didnt appreciate it.

The Quran is complete and has all what a muslim needs from birth to death. thats muslims suppose to belive as a fact. i do belive that too.

the Quran which is God's words has details of many thing and has briefly described other details and ORDERED muslims to Follow the Prophet and ask the knowledable people. that covers the not mentioned details. and by that the Quran proovs to be Complete and covering all aspects of human life.

you are agreeing with me that muslims should follow the prophets , but its look like that there aren't a source to do so aside from the Quran, and as i said the Quran came not to describe each prophet life it came for all humanity and the last prophet's life and sayings arent all mentioned in the Quran.

and about the Tashahud and the english version of that Hadith, I didnt say there aren't english version of that hadith i said "i" couldn't find it because the site i vist doesnt has the same organization in the English page as it does in the Arabic one. so if i did some "diging" i would've found it.

also i did mentione that  providing the prayers details in the Hadiths to you are not helping here since you reject all hadiths ( which i did presented in 3 languages but they were in bulk and you have to do the "diging" which you didnt ) and claiming that the Quran as those details in it. you provided the verses in the Quran about those details and then admitted that the rest of the details are NOT from the Quran but from another sources which you called Community.

the Tashahud was an example i chose, there are more, such as How do you know that the first Sura is requied in every Prayer?. those details were mentioned in the Quran.

i dont know how you got that i dont appreciate the Quran

as i mentioned above the Quran is complete. i respect it and apreciate it.

in the other hand you insulted the Imams of the Hadiths and accused them of making up the Quran themselvs and by following the Hadiths we are actully following them not God.

hmmm, so from that you are saying that the Hadiths aren't prophet saying and recored of his actions, at the same time saying the the "communitites" have those practice.

now the important Question where did the Communites got those practices from? From the Prophet? yes? did these communities  see the prophet praying? the early ones did? oh ok those early ones did record that and those record are called HADITHS.

hmmm still i think its mostly a matter of language interpretation/translation, that verse is talking about God witnessing himself to be the only god. Tashahud means YOU witness that God is the only God and Prophet Muhammed is his Messenger. unless there are another meaning of Tashahud then please tell us.

then the Belessing on the Prophet Muhammed Family and Prophet Abraham's Family are to their house hold, to their wives and sons and daughters.

dont know how they are "dead unbelivers" to you.

hmmm its a matter of personal choice here i think, like many religions Islam has its Principles and rules which muslims suppose not to alter as per their own liking or wishes. and again the Community must have a source for their doings and it most probably will go back to the Prophet's sayings and actions records AKA Hadiths.

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i know that there are not Gaurantees but God also told us to do "Tawakul" which roughly means "take proper reasons" to make what you want accepted. and that applies for everything not only prayers, for example if you want to pass an exame you take all reasons to pass such as study the subject and do the past exams do a group study, ask lecturers...etc.

for the prayer "tawakul" would be do the Basic things such as the washing, the direction, the place, the order, what to do and what not do while praying ...etc.

you think Communities are the Better source for those not the Hadiths, mmm first you need to prove that the Communites aren't following the Hadiths, if so then you are Following the Hadiths and dont know that.

yes it was wrong iam not saying it was right, iam saying it doesnt say that they got it from the early prophet and did it wrong as you said.

as i said from what sources? the jewish and Christan sources are corrupted as Muslim belive. so that will leave you with the Quran which has Stories of the Prophts and its the first source.

but other than the Quran, are they any other sources? community too?

i didnt say anything about if they were muslims or anything about picking.

i was asking how would you follow the messengers, you answer here is from the Quran. thats very true.  what about the last prophet? the Master of the Prophets and their Imams?

how did you assume that Abu Huraira is vague?

late convert or not that doesnt change that he became a muslim and he is one of the Prophet's companions and by becomming a muslim his past was ereased as it is said in the Quran.

now here you are explaining the community that they learned them from thier fathers and their fathers ! based on whom at the end? all prophet companions who had any knowledge to share about the prophet is recored as Hadiths, so if your fathers' fathers's ... were converted sometime 300 years after prophet's death. how did they got that knowlege? i think from Hadiths (Shea or Sunnie Hadiths still Hadith just the Shea's has different Hadith scholars and many hadiths are in both branches).

i did provide all the Hadith (sunni) regarding Prayers, you want me to put them in order from the start to the end of Prayers? sure i will just need to find another site which has an english translation of Hadiths in order. by the way they are in order in the Arabic version which unfortunatly you wont understand.

by the way another member has a site with Prayers in order for one branch of Sunnies. check them out the Hadiths i gave you has those and more. the only thinkg that they are not in the order you require.

iam just wondering i noticed that you have a source for hadiths that you posted some in another thread, wonder if the prayers Hadiths aren't available in your source.

since you said that your communiy is/was sunnies then most probably the trustable sources which you dont know are the Hadiths.

and please dont take that as a rejection to the Quran. as i said the Quran is Complete and its the First source. dont mix up the piorities i take both as the Quran the first and the Hadith the secound.

i didnt say its fully details , i said it has the order , and by that i meant from standing then doing Rakah then Sajdah. this is called one Rakah.

and the 2nd Rakah is done the same by standing up after the Sajdah, after the 2nd Rakah there is a rest period which a 1st Tashuhad is said then again standing .... until the last Tashahud ans saying the Salam.

as i said earlier they are in the site i provided just the problem is with the organisation , check the one Hamoudeh gave. its part from that.

but if you insist then i will do the search by myself and do the "diging" but that will take time.

again it seems that you do have a source of Hadiths, please share with us a site if its a site. maybe its more organised than the one i have.

lol since you reject all Hadiths and their scholars Bukhari...etc. i dont think that you will consider anything reliable and or valid  there.

anyway there are on that site. check them if you dont have them already in your own source.

you are talking like i rejected the Quran as you rejected the Hadiths ! i didnt reject any remember.

and what do you mean by "ask your sheiks and i will ask my scholars and God"?

whats the different between Sheiks and Scholars?

and where did i say that i ask Sheiks and not ask scholars ( if there are any difference) and where did i say i dont ask God?

and please show us the Contradictions. iam sure as most of whats happenining here its nothing more than Misunderstanding of the Arabic Language and the Interpretaion of the Words.

you reminded me of a member used to be here, when i told him women shouldn't be forced  Not to wear Hijab he said that i want Turkey to be like Saudi Arabia.

as you wish, i dont see a reason to go PMing, unless its personal. neither a conclusion which i dont see we would reach anyway. since you are rejecting what you aready practicing.

i did present what you asked (you didnt want to do the diging)and told you that its useless to show you whats in the Hadiths to and its you who needed to show me the other sources you learned how to pray from.

you gave me the Quran verses (which i knew) and finally told us the other source which is the Community who you dont know from which sources they got their practice from even though you saying that they are Sunnies .

plus dont forget that i asked some question which you ignored more than once.

for example the Hijab while praying one.

just please if this is bothering you for some reason dont bother to replay.

from my side i have no problems replaying, iam not a scholar nor i studied religion in college , i just have my sources which i use and which i dont know all the details in them. i check back and ask people who i think know more and see the other views as i mentioned before.