QuoteReplyTopic: Gaza flotilla activists or terrorists? Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 08:11
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
TheGreatSimba, you are exactly like those brainwashed Iranians that I meet everyday in this country!
Who brainwashed me? The American media brainwashed me? Come on Cyrus, dont be ridiculous. What you dont know is that there are many many westerners who do not like Israeli policies. Look at all the international condemnation against Israel's actions because of what they did.
In fact, you are just like all those Iranians who do and say things because its "fashionable".
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
Ok, guys, lets all stop for a second, and cut the crap, we're getting no where with this back and forth stuff.
Lets stick to, and review, the facts:
-------------------------- The Israeli claim:
Israel claims that those on board were terrorists and that the ship was carrying weapons.
The truth:
Israel has provided no evidence that anyone on board was a terrorist, and in fact released all the prisoners shortly after.
No weapons were found on board any of the ships.
There were people from all over the world on the board on those ships, including politicians, reporters, professors, students, a Nobel Laureate, film makers, etc... (for a full list of notable people on board as well as the countries represented, see here)
Question: If Israel is right, and the ships were carrying weapons and the crew were terrorists, then why not show the evidence and detain the terrorists?
------------------------ The Israeli Claim:
Their troops acted in self defense.
The Israeli account is that they gave the ships a warning, then boarded them. As they were boarding the ships, they were ambushed in an organized attack and therefore used their lethal weapons in self defense.
According to eye witness accounts from the boats:
The Israeli's began shooting prior to boarding the vessels, there was no organized resistance
Here are some of the accounts by passengers:
Arafat Shoukri, of the Free Gaza Movement (FGM) which helped organise
the convoy, said those on board one ship had told them by telephone
that Israeli helicopters had arrived.
"Then we started to hear screams, shouting, shooting
everywhere," he said. "We heard some of them shouting 'We are raising
the white flag, stop shooting at us'."
"Yes, we took their guns. It would be self-defence even if we fired
their guns. We told our friends on board: 'We will die, become martyrs,
but never let us be shown... as the ones who used guns'. By this
decision, our friends accepted death, and we threw all the guns we took
from them into the sea."
He described how a doctor and a journalist were both shot at
close range, and said another activist was shot as he was surrendering.
"I took off my shirt and waved it, as a white flag. We thought
they would stop after seeing the white flag, but they continued killing
people," he said.
Norman Paech, a former member of Germany's Left
Party, was aboard the Mavi Marmara.
Speaking at a news conference in Berlin, he said the ship was
surrounded by small Israeli assault boats on Monday morning at about
0430 local time.
"Moments later, we heard detonations and then soldiers from
helicopters above us dropped down on board.
"The soldiers were all masked, carrying big guns and were
extremely brutal."
Mr Paech said he only saw three activists resisting.
"They had no knives, no axes, only sticks that they used to
defend themselves," he told reporters.
But he said he could "not rule out" that others used weapons
somewhere else on the boat.
Turkish activist Nilufer Cetin told reporters
she hid with her baby in the bathroom of her cabin aboard the Mavi
Marmara.
"When the Mavi Marmara continued on its course, the harassment
[from Israeli ships] turned into an attack," she said.
"They used smoke bombs followed by gas canisters. They started
to descend on to the ship with helicopters.
"It [the violence] was extremely bad and brutal. The ship
turned into a lake of blood.
Activist Dimitris Gielalis, who had been aboard
the Sfendoni, was among six Greeks who returned home on Tuesday.
"Suddenly from everywhere we saw inflatables coming at us, and
within seconds fully equipped commandos came up on the boat," he said.
"They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had
electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used."
Mr Gielalis said the boat's captain was beaten for refusing to
leave the wheel, and had sustained non-life-threatening injuries, while a
cameraman filming the raid was hit with a rifle butt in the eye.
"Of course we weren't prepared for a situation of war," he
said.
Aris Papadokostopoulos was aboard the Free
Mediterranean, travelling behind the Mavi Marmara and carrying mainly
Greek and Swedish activists.
"The Turkish ship [the Mavi Marmara] was in front of us... on
which there was a terrible raid from the air and from the sea and from
everywhere, with shooting," he said.
Mr Papadokostopoulos said aboard the other boats, commandos
beat activists but nobody was gravely injured.
He said no-one put up resistance on the Free Mediterranean,
which was carrying a cargo of wheelchairs, building material and medical
and pharmaceutical aid.
"Some people were hit by clubs and electric shocks. During
their interrogation, many of them were badly beaten in front of us," he
said.
"The attack on the Mavi Marmara came in an instant: they attacked it
with 12 or 13 attack boats and also with commandos from helicopters. We
heard the gunshots over our portable radio handsets, which we used to
communicate with the Mavi Marmara, because our ship communication system
was disrupted. There were three or four helicopters also used in the
attack. We were told by Mavi Marmara their crew and civilians were being
shot at and windows and doors were being broken by Israelis."
Michalis Grigoropoulos, who was at the wheel of the Free Mediterranean,
said: "We were in international waters. The Israelis acted like pirates,
completely out of the normal way that they conduct nautical exercises,
and seized our ship. They took us hostage, pointing guns at our heads;
they descended from helicopters and fired tear gas and bullets. There
was absolutely nothing we could do … Those who tried to resist forming a
human ring on the bridge were given electric shocks."
Grigoropoulos, who insisted the ship was full of humanitarian aid bound
for Gaza "and nothing more", said that, once detained, the human rights
activists were not allowed to contact a lawyer or the Greek embassy in
Tel Aviv. "They didn't let us go to the toilet, eat or drink water and
throughout they videoed us. They confiscated everything, mobile phones,
laptops, cameras and personal effects. They only allowed us to keep our
papers."
As all the passengers have now been released, more statements are sure to follow.
What we do know is true:
Israel hijacked the boats in international waters, and the crew had every right to defend themselves against piracy.
A 19 year old American was killed, with 4 shots to the head and one to the chest at close range. (Source: ABC News)
Israel refuses to release the full video of the incident (Israel refuses to show the video prior to boarding and the shooting of the civilians).
Israel is opposed to any international investigation of the incident.
Israel confiscated all the laptops, cameras, and memory cards that the passengers had and will not return them.
Question: If Israel did nothing wrong, then why all the secrecy and refusal for an international investigation? Surely if the soldiers shot back in self defense, Israel would want the whole world to see the video. ------------------------
Israeli claim:
Israel offered to transport the ships humanitarian aid to Gaza.
The truth:
Israel would transport the goods to Gaza after the goods were inspected for contraband. Almost everything the boats were carrying are considered contraband by Israel, such as some food stuffs, medicines, building equipment, playgrounds, books, pencils, motorized carts, etc... Therefore, most of the goods would never have reached Gaza.
Edited by TheGreatSimba - 03-Jun-2010 at 08:51
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
Who brainwashed me? The American media brainwashed me? Come on Cyrus, dont be ridiculous. What you dont know is that there are many many westerners who do not like Israeli policies. Look at all the international condemnation against Israel's actions because of what they did.
The problem of you and those westerners who already live peacefully, is that you really don't know the meaning of "Terrorism", you can't believe there can be some people who want to kill you just because your beliefs, unfortunately you even can't understand the danger of these people, I have to say that I hate some emotional idiots who call themselves humanitarianist, I really think their brains don't work, according to this site: http://cozay.com/ One in six African children dies before the age of five because of extreme poverty. Does it really matter for them? No, the important thing is just that a kid in Gaza didn't eat his ice craze special coffee jelly dessert.
Lauren Booth, one of these human rights activists visited Gaza in the last year:
On the very same day that Lauren Booth gave this interview, Islamic Jihad held their annual Iftar breakfast for journalists south of Gaza City in a restaurant. Palestine Today covered the event.
Note the distended stomachs, the threadbare clothing, the suffering faces, and the awful humanitarian conditions that these brave Gazans are forced to survive in, day in and day out:
I don't know about you, but when I first saw these pictures the very first word that came to my mind was "Darfur!"
Thanks Cyrus for posting something actually relevant to this discussion!
It is obvious that the people of the Gaza Strip are the ones held hostage by both sides!
For example, just why does Egypt keep its access to the "Strip", mostly closed? Are not they all "Islamists?"
No, it because Hamas has cultivated such a world wide support network, thru its ties to Socialists, Communists, Progressives and Anarchist groups, and those who just "Hate the Jews!" Which just might describe the feelings of most members of all of the above groups?
If you are I were really smart, and if conditions tended to support the fact that a lot of "sh-t" was about to hit the fan", just whom would you like on your side? Would you like Syria?, or Jordan?, or Egypt?, or Saudi Arabia?
Or would you like a small group of people who mostly "Never loose" in battle?
Gee! A tough question to our opposition? Maybe we should give this some thought?
Times up, I will pick Israel!
As TGS posted some time ago;
"The truth is clear, the facts dont lie. Israel can lie as much as it wants (and like it always does) but eventually, like the kid that cried wolf, people wont buy it anymore."
Yes TGS, there is truth, but you and your group of "Anti-Semites", which includes all Socialist, and Progressive groups in the world, just refuse to face the "TRUTH!"
The "TRUTH" is that TGS, and his fellow travellers want to turn the Western World into another "third world" area! As was mentioned earlier, just where is the vast wealth of the Arabic World, being directed? Is it sent to the Sudan, or other starving parts of the world where there exists millions of followers of their "Faith", who are starving to death?
No, it is rather sent to those who would strap a bomb upon the breast of their own mothers to kill Christians, or Jews, etc.!
Sad, very sad!
If, indeed, I had any vote, you and those who support your views of hate and murder, and terrorism, whould be banned!
It is the "hate" that is most discusting!
By the way, just what difference do you give to the difference between an "activist" and a "terrorists?"
It seems peaceful dissent, like that of Ghandi or MLK, is more preferrable than the activities of those persons aboard that one ship?
The problem of you and those westerners who already live peacefully, is that you really don't know the meaning of "Terrorism", you can't believe there can be some people who want to kill you just because your beliefs, unfortunately you even can't understand the danger of these people,
Lets see, 9/11, the military base shooting, the Time Square bomber, the shoe bomber, the anthrax attacks, the DC sniper... yea you're right, we dont know the dangers of terrorism.
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
I have to say that I hate some emotional idiots who call themselves humanitarianist, I really think their brains don't work, according to this site: http://cozay.com/ One in six African children dies before the age of five because of extreme poverty. Does it really matter for them?
Yes, it does matter, to me it matters, to any one who says they are a humanitarian it does matter. No one in the world would say that African children dieing of poverty and starvation is a good thing, unless they are racist or have some backwards religious ideology.
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
No, the important thing is just that a kid in Gaza didn't eat his ice craze special coffee jelly dessert.
Yes, that is important. Children deserve to live a happy life no matter where they are! Hey Cyrus, what if tomorrow the IRI banned pasta in Iran tomorrow, would you be ok with that?
Cyrus, like I said, lets cut the crap and lets address the facts... Why do you not want to address the facts?
-------------------------- The Israeli claim:
Israel
claims that those on board were terrorists and that the ship was
carrying weapons.
The truth:
Israel has
provided no evidence that anyone on board was a terrorist, and in fact
released all the prisoners shortly after.
No weapons were
found on board any of the ships.
There were people from
all over the world on the board on those ships, including politicians,
reporters, professors, students, a Nobel Laureate, film makers, etc...
(for a full list of notable people on board as well as the countries
represented, see here)
Question: If Israel is right,
and the ships were carrying weapons and the crew were terrorists, then
why not show the evidence and detain the terrorists?
------------------------ The
Israeli Claim:
Their troops acted in self defense.
The
Israeli account is that they gave the ships a warning, then boarded
them. As they were boarding the ships, they were ambushed in an
organized attack and therefore used their lethal weapons in self
defense.
According to eye witness accounts from
the boats:
The Israeli's began shooting prior to boarding
the vessels, there was no organized resistance
Here are
some of the accounts by passengers:
Arafat
Shoukri, of the Free Gaza Movement (FGM) which helped organise
the convoy, said those on board one ship had told them by telephone
that Israeli helicopters had arrived.
"Then we started to hear screams, shouting, shooting
everywhere," he said. "We heard some of them shouting 'We are raising
the white flag, stop shooting at us'."
"Yes,
we took their guns. It would be self-defence even if we fired
their guns. We told our friends on board: 'We will die, become martyrs,
but never let us be shown... as the ones who used guns'. By this
decision, our friends accepted death, and we threw all the guns we took
from them into the sea."
He described how a doctor and a journalist were both shot at
close range, and said another activist was shot as he was surrendering.
"I took off my shirt and waved it, as a white flag. We thought
they would stop after seeing the white flag, but they continued killing
people," he said.
Norman Paech, a
former member of Germany's Left
Party, was aboard the Mavi Marmara.
Speaking at a news conference in Berlin, he said the ship was
surrounded by small Israeli assault boats on Monday morning at about
0430 local time.
"Moments later, we heard detonations and then soldiers from
helicopters above us dropped down on board.
"The soldiers were all masked, carrying big guns and were
extremely brutal."
Mr Paech said he only saw three activists resisting.
"They had no knives, no axes, only sticks that they used to
defend themselves," he told reporters.
But he said he could "not rule out" that others used weapons
somewhere else on the boat.
Turkish
activist Nilufer Cetin told reporters
she hid with her baby in the bathroom of her cabin aboard the Mavi
Marmara.
"When the Mavi Marmara continued on its course, the harassment
[from Israeli ships] turned into an attack," she said.
"They used smoke bombs followed by gas canisters. They started
to descend on to the ship with helicopters.
"It [the violence] was extremely bad and brutal. The ship
turned into a lake of blood.
Activist
Dimitris Gielalis, who had been aboard
the Sfendoni, was among six Greeks who returned home on Tuesday.
"Suddenly from everywhere we saw inflatables coming at us, and
within seconds fully equipped commandos came up on the boat," he said.
"They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had
electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used."
Mr Gielalis said the boat's captain was beaten for refusing to
leave the wheel, and had sustained non-life-threatening injuries, while a
cameraman filming the raid was hit with a rifle butt in the eye.
"Of course we weren't prepared for a situation of war," he
said.
Aris Papadokostopoulos was aboard
the Free
Mediterranean, travelling behind the Mavi Marmara and carrying mainly
Greek and Swedish activists.
"The Turkish ship [the Mavi Marmara] was in front of us... on
which there was a terrible raid from the air and from the sea and from
everywhere, with shooting," he said.
Mr Papadokostopoulos said aboard the other boats, commandos
beat activists but nobody was gravely injured.
He said no-one put up resistance on the Free Mediterranean,
which was carrying a cargo of wheelchairs, building material and medical
and pharmaceutical aid.
"Some people were hit by clubs and electric shocks. During
their interrogation, many of them were badly beaten in front of us," he
said.
"The attack on the Mavi
Marmara came in an instant: they attacked it
with 12 or 13 attack boats and also with commandos from helicopters. We
heard the gunshots over our portable radio handsets, which we used to
communicate with the Mavi Marmara, because our ship communication system
was disrupted. There were three or four helicopters also used in the
attack. We were told by Mavi Marmara their crew and civilians were being
shot at and windows and doors were being broken by Israelis."
Michalis
Grigoropoulos, who was at the wheel of the Free Mediterranean,
said: "We were in international waters. The Israelis acted like pirates,
completely out of the normal way that they conduct nautical exercises,
and seized our ship. They took us hostage, pointing guns at our heads;
they descended from helicopters and fired tear gas and bullets. There
was absolutely nothing we could do … Those who tried to resist forming a
human ring on the bridge were given electric shocks."
Grigoropoulos,
who insisted the ship was full of humanitarian aid bound
for Gaza "and nothing more", said that, once detained, the human rights
activists were not allowed to contact a lawyer or the Greek embassy in
Tel Aviv. "They didn't let us go to the toilet, eat or drink water and
throughout they videoed us. They confiscated everything, mobile phones,
laptops, cameras and personal effects. They only allowed us to keep our
papers."
As all the passengers have
now been released, more statements are sure to follow.
What
we do know is true:
Israel hijacked the boats in
international waters, and the crew had every right to defend themselves
against piracy.
A 19 year old American was killed, with 4
shots to the head and one to the chest at close range. (Source: ABC News)
Israel refuses to release
the full video of the incident (Israel refuses to show the video prior
to boarding and the shooting of the civilians).
Israel is
opposed to any international investigation of the incident.
Israel
confiscated all the laptops, cameras, and memory cards that the
passengers had and will not return them.
Question:
If Israel did nothing wrong, then why all the secrecy and refusal for an
international investigation? Surely if the soldiers shot back in self
defense, Israel would want the whole world to see the video. ------------------------
Israeli
claim:
Israel offered to transport the ships
humanitarian aid to Gaza.
The truth:
Israel
would transport the goods to Gaza after the goods were inspected for
contraband. Almost everything the boats were carrying are considered
contraband by Israel, such as some food stuffs, medicines, building
equipment, playgrounds, books, pencils, motorized carts, etc...
Therefore, most of the goods would never have reached Gaza.
Edited by TheGreatSimba - 03-Jun-2010 at 15:32
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
You , TGS, would not know the "truth" if it hit you in the face! You actually deny it with most every post you make! It is only hatred that keeps you going!
How can I tell if you are lying? When your fingers hit the keys!, and you press "enter!"
You are no different than the old National Socialists!
Yea, and all the sources I post I just make up too...Oh wait, the only person whose wrong ALL THE TIME and NEVER POSTS ANY SOURCES is...yourself. Interesting huh?
Anyways, here is what a reporter has to say after being released and able to speak for the first time:
As soon as this attack started, I was on the top deck and
within just a few minutes there were live shots being fired from above
the ship, from above, from where the helicopters were. [...]
The first shots that were fired were either some sort of sound
grenades, there was some tear gas that was fired as well as
rubber-coated bullets. They were fired initially and the live bullets
came roughly about five minutes after that.
It was evident there was definitely fire from the air,
because one of the people who was killed was clearly shot from above —
he was shot, the bullet targeted him at the top of his head. There was
also fire coming from the sea as well. Most of the fire initially from
the sea was tear gas canisters, sound grenades, but then it became live
fire. After I finished filing that last report and I was going down
below deck one of the passengers who was on the side of the deck holding
a water hose — trying to hose off, if you will, the advancing Israeli
navy — was shot in his arm by soldiers in the boats below. [...]
There is no doubt from what I saw that live ammunition was fired
before any Israeli soldier was on deck. What I saw, the sequence of
events that took place, there was a pool camera, so reporters took it in
turns to file, so after I had done my first file, I turned around to
see what was going on and there were several shots fired. In fact, one
of the helicopters at the front of the ship, you could almost see the
soldiers pointing their guns down through some sort of hole or
compartment at the bottom side of the helicopter and firing almost
indiscriminately without even looking where they were firing. And those
bullets were definitely live bullets.
Kevin Ovenden of Britain, an activist on the ship that arrived in
İstanbul on Thursday, also said a man who had pointed a camera at the
soldiers was shot directly through the forehead with live ammunition,
with the exit wound blowing away back of his skull.
A photojournalist from Today’s Zaman Kursat Bayhan who was on board an
international aid convoy for Gaza said he tried to hide a flash disk
which included the photos from the moments of Israeli attack on the
convoy under his tongue to prevent Israeli authorities from seizing it
but his effort failed during a medical examination.
Israel has confiscated some of the most important material for the
investigation, namely the films, audio and photos taken by the
passengers [and] journalists on board and the Mavi Marmara’s security
cameras. Since yesterday, Israel has been editing these films and using
them for its own PR campaign. In other words, Israel has already
confiscated most of the evidence, held it from the world and tampered
with it. No court in the world would [trust] it to be the one examining
it.
British survivor of Gaza flotilla raid: 'Israelis ignored SOS
calls'
Sarah Colborne said
pleas for aid were dismissed by the troops who fired live rounds at the
activists and handcuffed medical staff
Source, also includes video of the interview: The Gaurdian
"At around 4.10am I woke up, went up to the deck so I could see
outside and I saw small dinghies bristling with guns and Israeli
military speeding towards the ship," she said.
"Helicopters then
appeared and gas and sound bombs were used ... We then had the first
passenger fatally injured. He was brought to the back of the deck below.
He was shot in the head.
"I saw him. He was in a very bad way and
he subsequently died. There were bullets flying all over the place. We
asked for the Israelis to stop the attacks. We asked this in English:
'We are not resisting, please help the injured.' Instead of helping the
injured the saloon remained surrounded by soldiers targeting individuals
with laser sights.
"The captain announced live ammunition was
being used, to stop resisting and to go downstairs. At 5.15am we started
broadcasting over the Tannoy for help to evacuate the critically
injured and for emergency medical assistance. We asked the Israelis to
stop the attacks in English."
She said she could "see the red of
the laser sights sweeping over people's heads".
"The Israeli
military were firing on us," she said. "We had no arms. We made two
attempts to get the message across in the written form. We wrote a sign
in Hebrew saying 'SOS! Need medical assistance. People are dying.
Urgent.'"
So it turns out, as more interviews are done with the crew, that Israel has been in fact lying. Their stories are consistent, and the fact that Israel refuses to release full videos of the attack from beginning to end, the fact that Israel confiscated all laptops, camera's, and memory cards, and the fact that Israel refuses an international investigation also supports the fact that Israel is, indeed, trying to cover something up.
I will post more accounts as they become available. So far, it is evident that the Israeli's were firing on the ships prior to landing.
Edited by TheGreatSimba - 03-Jun-2010 at 16:45
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
Back to the point the real enemy is Pakistan--They are fermenting the insurgency--Also I have read they have captured Mullah Omar, not confirmed officially.
Geeeee. I never knew one could ferment an insurgency. You'd need loads and loads of jute juice, and perhaps several bowls of the obligatory yeast - to add to the in-sugar-cy - to make jute wine, or maybe jute beer. I'll ask the Tal to send you a couple of barrels or something, when the stuff is ready.
Maybe that could help you improve your spelling a bit more.
Until then, it'd be a bit hard for me to take your comments seriously enough. Kid.
Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 03-Jun-2010 at 20:25
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
Back to the point the real enemy is Pakistan--They are fermenting the insurgency--Also I have read they have captured Mullah Omar, not confirmed officially.
Geeeee. I never knew one could ferment an insurgency. You'd need loads and loads of jute juice, and perhaps several bowls of the obligatory yeast - to add to the in-sugar-cy - to make jute wine, or maybe jute beer. I'll ask the Tal to send you a couple of barrels or something, when the stuff is ready.
Maybe that could help you improve your spelling a bit more.
Until then, it'd be a bit hard for me to take your comments seriously enough. Kid.
Once again all fur coat and no knickers. I am likley older than you. Have you figured out yet how to mount a bayonet on an UZI? (as you state an another post) Or why Arabs would use an Israeli weapon--- or is your knowledge base limited to bollywood movies ( I do mean BOLLYWOOD) and B rated trash
Nobody really here takes you seriously you are a joke.
Who brainwashed me? The American media brainwashed me? Come on Cyrus, dont be ridiculous. What you dont know is that there are many many westerners who do not like Israeli policies. Look at all the international condemnation against Israel's actions because of what they did.
Note the distended stomachs, the threadbare clothing, the suffering faces, and the awful humanitarian conditions that these brave Gazans are forced to survive in, day in and day out:
I don't know about you, but when I first saw these pictures the very first word that came to my mind was "Darfur!"
[/QUOTE]
If they really cared about their suffering Islam brothers--They should send a Flotilla to Darfur-- Look at the Palis sporting around in suit jackets fine plates of food while there Arab brothers suffer-- Isn't charity a pillar of Islam. Yes/No or has that Pillar been replaced with lest just muck over Israel and forgot the truly suffering.
Ok, guys, lets all stop for a second, and cut the crap, we're getting no where with this back and forth stuff.
Lets stick to, and review, the facts:
-------------------------- The Israeli claim:
Israel claims that those on board were terrorists and that the ship was carrying weapons.
The truth:
Israel has provided no evidence that anyone on board was a terrorist, and in fact released all the prisoners shortly after.
No weapons were found on board any of the ships.
There were people from all over the world on the board on those ships, including politicians, reporters, professors, students, a Nobel Laureate, film makers, etc... (for a full list of notable people on board as well as the countries represented, see here)
However Israelis have no foreknowledge but it has been proved that they were right:
ISTANBUL—The Islamic charity that was a key organizer of a flotilla intercepted by Israeli commandos this week claimed martyrdom and victory Thursday, in scenes that appeared to set it apart from other aid groups.
Turkish-American Furkan Dogan, shown in 2008, died Monday.
Members of Turkey's Humanitarian Relief Foundation, or IHH, distinguished themselves from other activists involved in the aid mission by a willingness to fight.
"We do not even have a jackknife here, but we will not let Israeli soldiers on board this ship," IHH leader Bulent Yildirim told reporters via a live video stream before the convoy set sail from Cyprus.
The nine activists known to have been killed in the clash on board the IHH-owned Mavi Marmara were members of or volunteers for the group, Mr. Yildirim said, including a joint American-Turkish citizen, 19-year-old Furkan Dogan.
"We were given the bodies of nine martyrs," Mr. Yildirim said when the bodies arrived on flights with hundreds of activists at Istanbul's airport early Thursday morning. A crowd of well-wishers chanted "God is Great" in the background.
Later, at a funeral service at Istanbul's Fatih Mosque, thousands of mourners passed the coffins of eight of the activists hand-to-hand over their heads. The service of the ninth casualty was scheduled for Friday.
The fact that all the dead belonged to the IHH, and that the group's ship was the only one in the convoy that chose to fight rather than offer passive resistance, has further focused attention on whether the group's motives were simply to provide aid to residents of the blockaded Gaza Strip.
"We know that IHH representatives have met with senior Hamas officials in Turkey, Syria and Gaza over the past three years. That is obviously of great concern to us," said State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley on Wednesday. Hamas is the Palestinian faction that controls the Gaza Strip.
TheGreatSimba, I don't think that you are a fanatical Muslim, but I maybe wrong?! You yourself somehow said that you are not also a racist or an anti-Semitist, I'm really interested to know why you hate Israel? Why do you want to be Haman, not Cyrus the Great? Please don't talk about the history and the human rights, if you don't know Cyrus the Great and what he did.
it seems this event has been deeply political rather than simply humanitarin gesture from the beginging. as you mentioned about hunger . it is true that millions of people around the world have much worse condition than people in gasa do and we need to send hundred of ships every week to save the life of children which die from starvation in both asia and africa and south america.
but the way israely reacted was too not correct. they could wait until they could have them outside intrnational water and also not shooting for kill at unarmed civilians.these are things which can favour the world opinion against israel and in favour of hamas . unfortunately israely gov has never been realy put under question for the wrong doings they have done before and it make them believe that everything they do is OK and it will finish by political isolation .
the impact of this event in europe has been very negative and hope the isrealy may wake up and see that they are not supported by world's opionion any more and they have to respect the international laws even if their enemies don't give a sh---t about law and civilian and human right.
for those who want to help starving children in the world please google and you can see how many million children around the world are starving daily and many to death
We're not condemning the entire Israeli people here. Make no mistake about that. There're even many Israeli citizens who disagree with the policies of their government and the way they're implemented.
What we're condemning is the Israeli government and the savagery and brutality of its state apparatus, particularly its armed forces.
That's 2 different things altogether.
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
Turkish-American Furkan Dogan, shown in 2008, died Monday.
"We do not even have a jackknife here, but we will not let Israeli soldiers on board this ship,"
In any culture, at any time in history, that sort of statement, in that sort of context, would have been perfectly accepted as a sign of valour, bravery and courage. I just can't agree that having those qualities makes anybody a bad guy. Even an enemy, a chivalrous and honourable enemy, would have respected and admired them.
Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 04-Jun-2010 at 04:14
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
Hmmmm. Well. What else would ya expect from an Afghanistan veteran? Ask him how many innocent children, women and elderly he enjoyed killing in Kabul and Kandahar. I pray that he doesn't end up in Iran one of these days. I wouldn't wish any Iranian to be the object of his enjoyment any time in the future.
Oh! You can still keep clapping that time if you like, but you can't sing, scream or shout anymore, cos your throat, or your arse, will be filled full with a bayonet at the end of an Uzi.
Thats higly inappropriate SoD and very shameful of you.
Also Uzi's dont have bayonet fixtures.
SoD you are hereby banned from speaking about any military technology. If you don't know sub machine guns like UZIs don't have Bayonet fixtures how can you even talk about tanks? I feel dumber for even arguing with you about Armor (Tanks)
Why would Arabs use an UZI it is a symbol of IDF victory over them.
The Uzi was used as a personal defense weapon by rear-echelon troops, officers, artillery troops and tankers, as well as a frontline weapon by elite light infantry assault forces. The Uzi's compact size and firepower proved instrumental in clearing Syrian bunkers and Jordanian defensive positions during the 1967 Six-Day War
Total sales of the weapon to date (end 2001) has netted IMI over $2 billion (US)
I did so however that some Iranians use the UZI kind of hypocritical eh?, Oh I guess not they still use American F-14s also.
Edited by Maximus Germanicus - 04-Jun-2010 at 05:52
TheGreatSimba, I don't think that you are a fanatical Muslim, but I maybe wrong?!
I'm an atheist, what are you? Whats fashionable in Tehran these days? Religion or ethnicity play no part in my ability to process the FACTS and come to a conclusion.
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
You yourself somehow said that you are not also a racist or an anti-Semitist, I'm really interested to know why you hate Israel?
I hate Israel the same way I hate Nazi Germany, the same way I hate the Islamic Republic, the same way I hate all evil governments.
Why do you hate Arabs so much? I know its pretty fashionable in Iran to hate Arabs...whose the real racist? If you're like most Iranians, you probably have a real deep seeded hatred of Arabs. So the question is, are you an anti-Semite (as I'm sure you know, Arabs are Semites as well)?
Racism has always been fashionable in Iran unfortunately.
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
Why do you want to be Haman, not Cyrus the Great? Please don't talk about the history and the human rights, if you don't know Cyrus the Great and what he did.
I dont want to be Cyrus the Great because I'm not an ultra nationalist. These nationalistic notions dont really suite my taste Cyrus, try something else. As for Haman, I dont put too much trust in what the bible says.
-------------------------------
Again, WHY DO YOU KEEP AVOIDING THE FACTS AND WHAT WE KNOW TO BE TRUE ABOUT THIS SITUATION, AND KEEP EMBRACING THIS DELUSION? If you are not here to discuss the facts, then whats the point of your contribution to this discussion? Are you discussing the Gaza Flotilla raid or are you here just to call other users anti-Semites?
And Yes SoD, that picture is a fake. Israel has put out many fake images regarding this situation and many of them have proved to be fakes.
Back to the point the real enemy is Pakistan--They are fermenting the insurgency--Also I have read they have captured Mullah Omar, not confirmed officially.
Geeeee. I never knew one could ferment an insurgency. You'd need loads and loads of jute juice, and perhaps several bowls of the obligatory yeast - to add to the in-sugar-cy - to make jute wine, or maybe jute beer. I'll ask the Tal to send you a couple of barrels or something, when the stuff is ready.
Maybe that could help you improve your spelling a bit more.
Until then, it'd be a bit hard for me to take your comments seriously enough. Kid.
THAT DOESNT MAKE ANY SENSE! yes I am shouting.
The use of the word ferment is perfectly acceptable in the context of the sentence, its also not a matter of spelling its grammar and syntax, all you've proceeded to do is make yourself look like a right numpty.
Is English your first language? If its not best leave off the native speakers and criticising their choice of verbage.
Religion or ethnicity play no part in my ability to process the FACTS and come to a conclusion.
what about "hatred"?
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba
I hate Israel the same way I hate Nazi Germany, the same way I hate the Islamic Republic, the same way I hate all evil governments.
I think you replied my previous question, governments are built by people, so you also hate all peoples.
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba
Why do you hate Arabs so much? I know its pretty fashionable in Iran to hate Arabs...whose the real racist? If you're like most Iranians, you probably have a real deep seeded hatred of Arabs. So the question is, are you an anti-Semite (as I'm sure you know, Arabs are Semites as well)?
I never hate Arabs or any other ethnic peoples. Some million of Iranians are themselves Arabs, but people have a natural right to defend their own identity and for this reason you can't call them racists, for example we say "Persian Gulf" is correct, not "Arabian Gulf", does it mean we hate Arabs?
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba
Racism has always been fashionable in Iran unfortunately.
Iranians are one of the most tolerant peoples, the vast ethnic diversity of Iran shows this fact.
Originally posted by TheGreatSimba
I dont want to be Cyrus the Great because I'm not an ultra nationalist.
I feel sorry for you if you think Cyrus the Great was a ultra-nationalist, would you please tell us what his nationality was? He has never mentioned his ethnicity in his insciptions, unlike Darius the Great and other Persian kings who proudly said "I'm a Persian, son of a Persian".
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Come on Cyrus, dont be ridiculous. What you dont know is that there are many many westerners who do not like Israeli policies. Look at all the international condemnation against Israel's actions because of what they did.
