Popes, Patriarchs, Turks and Religious Repression

Originally posted by bg_turk 1) The Patriarchate is a Turkish institution set up by and for Turkish citizens.

Wrong.
The fact that forummers from all accross the world are involved in this topic proves that it is not just Turkish citizens that care about the patriarchy.

2) Only Turkish citizens can be patriarchs.

You'd better give citizenship to anyone who wants to be patriarchy then.

Are you even a turkish citizen, mr bulgarian?

3) The Patriarchate has to use the Turkish language among all others so that Turkish Christians can understand it.

That is up to the Church to decide not anyone else.

When it comes to your demands and complaints, there is no legal basis for the Turkish government to follow them. You may go and complain at the ECHR if you so wish, I doubt that you will find a sympathetic ear.

The guy who makes to law gets to decide whats legal and whats not.

Turkish should be one of the languages it uses - currently its website is only in Greek and English. How are Turkish christians supposed to read it?

Why do I suspect that turkish christians can speak greek?

1) I think Turkey's long term goal of integrating its Christian community  is far more important than some tourist dollars. 2)With regard to Greeco-Turkish relations, the patriarchate should bear no relevance as it is a Turkish institution, and therefore strictly an internal Turkish affair. 3) I do not see how the points I have laid above are in any way unjust or in contravention to anybodies human rights.

1) Excuse me mate but I think I am in a better position to understand "integration" of religious minorities than you are.
If you give people a sense of security, equality and respect they'll integrate if you pick on them and threaten then they'll fight you.
2) This is complete rubbish. Religions do not follow national boundaries
3) Your loss, you can't know the meaning of justice or human rights.

Originally posted by Janus Rook I think the Gagauz might have something to say to that Omar......

I meant turks from the Turkish Republic, not turkic peoples.

Originally posted by BG turk No thank you. It will be far easier if the patriarchate would bother to learn Turkish, like all other religious minorities in their host countries

Ha! This statement stinks of so much ignorance you deserve to get exiled to cambodia (or similar country where you don't speak the language). I damn well bet his turish is better than yours.

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim 1) Excuse me mate but I think I am in a better position to understand "integration" of religious minorities than you are. If you give people a sense of security, equality and respect they'll integrate if you pick on them and threaten then they'll fight you.

Then how come you do not understand that learning the language of the host is the most important part of integration?

2) This is complete rubbish. Religions do not follow national boundaries

In the Balkans they do.

3) Your loss, you can't know the meaning of justice or human rights.

Care to cite which one of the clauses of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is being violated?

Originally posted by Antioxos This is your personal opinion because i live in Balkans and i think that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights  applied also in Balkans. If you are interest to read it here is the site   http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

I am very well aware of the Universal Declaration of Human RIghts and II have never stated that it is not applicable in the Balkans.

right thing? right thing for who?  Absolutely not Turks.

1) The Patriarchate is a Turkish institution set up by and for Turkish citizens.

Secular republic, that suppress muslim. Why do you think she would to treat better to greek or armenian christians? I should also add, Patriarch have political power.

See, I'm sure that if you talked to Turkish christians they would say that they are the ones being oppressed and the muslims are getting it easy. That's not the point I'm making though. It sounds to me as if Turkey might be using religious differences to divide it's population so that there attention is drawn elsewhere. If the christians and muslims allied for greater religious freedom instead of blaming each other and being divisive then Turkey would be able to become a more internationally friendly place.

I also agree that the Patriarch has political power, it's just he has no political authority within the Turkish state. Although I believe the Patriarch neither wants nor expects political authority, just to keep his political power.

I know that the situation with the Christian community within Turkey, as with other religious minorities such as the Alevi, is not rosy at the moment, and the violations that you have stated above are legitimte concerns that should be looked into and corrected. Property confiscations, vandalism attacks and insults against the patriarchate are of course unacceptable.

But the turkish citizenship requirement, the need to use the Turkish language, and the non-recogntition of the ecumenical nature of the Patriarchate as far as I can see are not in violation of any of the articles you cited and shall remain in place.

Who are after all Turkish citizens.
They have minority rights, including to know and use their langauge freely, and they are far from becoming Turkish. It is stupid greeks claim turks as muslim greeks, and It is not more sensible to call greek as turk. They must not speak Turkish. It is their preference to learn or not..

I do not understand the need to use the Turkish language. I would, in all honesty and humility, appreciate an explanation. Personally, I think it is kind of foolish of the Patriarchal see to not use Turkish, as that would seem to be the best way to communicate with the citizens of the nation in which it finds itself, but I fail to see the reason behind a need to demand it.

Originally posted by Mortaza I do not understand the need to use the Turkish language. I would, in all honesty and humility, appreciate an explanation. Personally, I think it is kind of foolish of the Patriarchal see to not use Turkish, as that would seem to be the best way to communicate with the citizens of the nation in which it finds itself, but I fail to see the reason behind a need to demand it.   Infact It is stupidy to want patriarch to speak Turkish. Why should we put Turkish christians under patriarch? should we reinforce patriarch?

The Patriarch is the spiritual leader of all Turkish citizens professing the Orthodox faith, regardless of their ethnic origins.

The Patriarch is the spiritual leader of all Turkish citizens professing the Orthodox faith, regardless of their ethnic origins.