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Topic: Understanding the U.S. Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 06:16 |
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy
Hate to keep talking about this subject, but people just eat plain peanut butter sandwiches? |
yes
at least in the Netherlands we do
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gcle2003
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Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 06:23 |
Originally posted by hugoestr
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy
What I want to know is why do many Americans vote against their own best interests. For example, one would think that people in the poor areas of the country, such as the South, would vote Democrat because they are more socialist and typically tend to favour the poor people. And Southern people actually used to vote Deomcrat in the 60's right? What happened? Why do so many poor people in America vote for the party which represents the interest of the rich people? |
Republicans are now known as the bible party. So the reason I think they vote for them is because most of poor are more religious so they vote for the Republicans. Other then that I honestly don't know, I'm from the North .
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Let me add a little bit to your good answer. Republicans have been good at presenting themselves as the party of the middle class to poor White American. It represents its cultural identity, so voting for the Republican Party is an act of affirming one's culture. So even though the Republican Party doesn't defend the economic interests of these people, it does represent the cultural ones very well. |
You and others are here skirting around the key issue, which is race. When Johnson pushed through the Civil Rights act Georgia's senator Richard Russell, previously a Johnson supporter, told him he would 'lose the South for two generations'.
Russell was right.
The white south overwhelmingly votes Republican and the black south votes Democrat. Except to some extent in a few major urban centres like Atlanta and Charlotte with a large number of immigrants from the North.
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Jhangora
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Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 06:35 |
Judging by the response so far it's going to be a popular thread.Thanx a lot for having started it.
My next question is what is the view of US citizens regarding 'their civilization'.Do they consider the ancient Red Indian civilizations as their civilization{my opinion-highly unlikely},do they consider ancient Greece n Rome as their civilization,do they think its no use worrying about such a thing considering they r the leaders of a unipolar world or do they think that they r living in an era dominated by the 'US/American Civilization'.
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Jai Badri Vishal
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 09:47 |
Originally posted by katulakatula
Judging by the response so far it's going to be a popular thread.Thanx a lot for having started it.
My next question is what is the view of US citizens regarding 'their civilization'.Do they consider the ancient Red Indian civilizations as their civilization{my opinion-highly unlikely},do they consider ancient Greece n Rome as their civilization,do they think its no use worrying about such a thing considering they r the leaders of a unipolar world or do they think that they r living in an era dominated by the 'US/American Civilization'.
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None of us can speak for 280,000,000 Americans, but it is probably fair to say that Americans feel they belong to "Western" civilization. By that, I mean European backgrounds; Graeco-Roman foundations and Judeo-Christian religious and ethical beliefs. Of course all these have been screwed with by human beings for the last 2,500 years or so, but that applies everywhere else too.
There are other influences. There are small but widespread communities of peoples from the other major civilizations...Chinese and other East Asian; Muslim and Indian, etc.
The character of many cities (and of older towns in the industrial north and east) has been changed by immigration from the Caribbean, Central America and of course Mexico, and that invigorates both the population as well as local cultural aspects, but this immigration is still part of the West, Latin America also being a strong part of that.
I don't think one can speak of an "American" civilization. It is part of Western civilization, and draws it's character from all that historical background.
In regard to Native American Indians, although there are aspects of numerous older cultures still maintained, I think they too are substantially acculturated into the West over the last century or so.
It might annoy some of our Canadian forumers, but I feel all the above applies to Canada as well.
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Jhangora
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Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 11:19 |
Thanx a lot for the reply pikeshot.My next question is regarding democracy.No form of governance is perfect n same is true for democracy.What according to US citizens r the flaws/shortcomings in the American democracy n what should be done to improve it.
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Paul
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Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 14:06 |
[QUOTE=gcle2003]
While Americans never take me for American, quite a lot of English people ask me if I'm American when they hear me talk. (That is of course foreigners from places in the far north like Oxford or the far east like London and Kent.)
[QUOTE]
Amazing I never knew carrot crunching could have such disasterous effects on the vocal chords.
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Perseas
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Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 14:14 |
Question: If most weather systems in US move from west to east and from North to south...how come hurricanes move from east to west and south to north?
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A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.
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Seko
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Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 14:18 |
I think it has to do with jet streams and warm temperatures. Hurricanes often start off in the southern Atlantic. Once they get over to the Gulf of Mexico or the eastern Us, it gets pushed the otherway by an eastbound stream.
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Illuminati
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Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 14:37 |
Originally posted by katulakatula
Thanx a lot for the reply
pikeshot.My next question is regarding democracy.No form of governance
is perfect n same is true for democracy.What according to US citizens r
the flaws/shortcomings in the American democracy n what should be done
to improve it. |
In my opinion, Americans dislike the fact that 2 parties control every
facet of the government. It's very difficult for a thrid party to get
started and rise up to a level where it can be considered a challenger
to the Republicans or Democrats.
Also, the fact that corporatiosn have too much say over government.
They ahve huge lobbying powers and often have huge effects on whether
or not a bill is successful or not. Politicians do too muhc to appease
corporations, and that is not beneficial to the public good. That is my
opinion, and I know it's shared by amny other Americans. And as mroe
and mroe problems arise in our country, more people are gradually
becoming mroe aware of this.
as far as improving American democracy, I think more political parties
need to be formed. I also think that a good portion fo the American
public needs to get more involved in politics. I think partisanship and
party loyalty is a huge problem. Conservatives and liberals have really
started to dislike each other even more, and when that kind of
animosity begins, people start becoming more loyal to their one side. A
great example would be the republican response to Katrina. I saw more
outrage from Republicans over the Miers nomination then I did over
issues regarding Bush and his response to Hurricane Katrina, and the
CIA leak scandal that just hit. Republicans jumped right to Bush's
defense over Katrina when there was overwhelming evidence of his
failure. Bush even took responsibility, thus proving that the
Republican voters were acting out of nothing more than loyalty, and not
acting upon the truth.
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 15:26 |
Originally posted by katulakatula
Thanx a lot for the reply pikeshot.My next question is regarding democracy.No form of governance is perfect n same is true for democracy.What according to US citizens r the flaws/shortcomings in the American democracy n what should be done to improve it. |
No, democracy is far from perfect. It does, however, tend to diffuse power away from authority (high office, the military and the super wealthy). Do all these have influence? Of course. Are they able to destroy the liberties of others, no. The free press, and now the electronic media have been able to focus attention on issues that force power elites to respond to grievances or modify behavior much more often and effectively than under authoritarian governance.
A free press sounds like it could be pretty fragile, but is has worked for a long time.
Not to say I am a fan of the current media...24/7 competition among too many news outlets; no time to verify info, reliance on very questionable sources to meet editorial deadlines, etc. (see the Katrina thread about all the rumor and false news stories) Still, as mismanaged and frustrating as it is, the media works and is valuable to our system.
And there has been sensationalist journalism for a long time. Still better than government censorship.
Before the Civil War, 1861-1865, the major dilemma of democracy was reconciling free government with slavery. However it was styled (economy; states' rights; representation in new western territories) that is what it was about...when politics failed, we shot it out for four years, wrecked the South, and over 600,000 soldiers were dead. It was a high price, but it better defined what kind of a people we would be.
After the Civil War, the biggest democratic dilemma was a concentration of wealth as the country got rich. Entrepreneurs, bankers, industrialists and the railroads tended to monopolize resources and access to politicians (which still happens) but one thing they could not control was the population.
There was such a labor shortage here 1870 to the 1910s, that they could never control wages. Immigrants were needed and they came here in many millions. Especially in big cities, political organizations that ran the city governments wanted the votes of new citizens, and helped them with jobs, access to loans and hospitals, etc. Then they had to pay some attention to constituencies.
As industrialization developed, problems arose in working conditions. Wages were not bad, but conditions were unhealthy and dangerous. Profit did not encourage change there, but by about 1905 when the big industrial "trusts" were broken up, politicians were taking note of the voting power of the work force. Industrialists and Capital still had their ear, but so did the voters.
Labor unions and the movement of population south and west in the twentieth century pretty much defined American democracy from the 1930s to the current era of "neo-conservatives" (1980s neo-classical economics/dismantling government [yeah, right]).
With the labor movement, the working class became a middle class with good incomes, better education and clout at the ballot box. The political center of gravity moved away from the Northeast to the South and West...most of the presidents in the last 40 years were from the South and California. Now, democracy here is faced with new challenges.
Globalization is altering employment, entitlements and personal security. Technology being more equal, jobs flow to where the labor is cheaper. How this will resolve itself is not clear, but remember that the last two national elections were VERY close, and the incumbent majority party tends to lose ground in interim elections. Both parties must nominate candidates for president, and much leadership and initiative must come from the office. There seem to be no clear contenders yet. It will be interesting. (And yes we can call the president any names we want if we choose )
The biggest issue for me now is the role of media in elections and how expensive it is. Politicians are full time fund raisers now, and have less time for issues and public policy. A dilemma in a more complicated world.
We argue with each other, news people yell at each other on TV, special prosecutors always find some dirt behind the 'veil of power,' but we still vote on something twice a year...there is always an election...and we have not had a war between the states for 140 years .
Hope this helps, and sorry it is so long.
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 15:28 |
Originally posted by Aeolus
Question: If most weather systems in US move from west to east and from North to south...how come hurricanes move from east to west and south to north? ![](smileys/smiley17.gif) |
We need a meteorology forum!![](smileys/smiley36.gif)
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Maju
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Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 15:53 |
Originally posted by Illuminati
In my opinion, Americans dislike the fact that 2 parties control every
facet of the government. It's very difficult for a thrid party to get
started and rise up to a level where it can be considered a challenger
to the Republicans or Democrats.
(...)
as far as improving American democracy, I think more political parties
need to be formed.
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Dificult to do in a rather homogeneous country used to circuscriptional elections in a winner-takes-all system.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Illuminati
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Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 16:27 |
Originally posted by Maju
Originally posted by Illuminati
In my opinion, Americans dislike the fact that 2 parties control every
facet of the government. It's very difficult for a thrid party to get
started and rise up to a level where it can be considered a challenger
to the Republicans or Democrats.
(...)
as far as improving American democracy, I think more political parties
need to be formed.
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Dificult to do in a rather homogeneous country used to circuscriptional elections in a winner-takes-all system.
|
The US is far from homogenous. It is the most culturally diverse nation
in the world. And there are independents in congress already. The only
issue is that people just stick with the two parties and don't relaly
care about third parties. And the political climate makes it difficult for a third to become all that powerful
Edited by Illuminati
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Thegeneral
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Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 17:46 |
We really do not need a nother party. You either have the beliefs that the democrats do or the rupublicans. An independant would be nothing more than a 'rose by another name', ir a republican or democrat with a different name. And I do not believe most Americans dislike the two party system.
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 18:08 |
Originally posted by Thegeneral
We really do not need a nother party. You either have the beliefs that the democrats do or the rupublicans. An independant would be nothing more than a 'rose by another name', ir a republican or democrat with a different name. And I do not believe most Americans dislike the two party system. |
I agree. Workable politics need sufficient compromise even when opposite camps disagree. There is much difference between modern Republicans and Democrats. Independents in office are usually a disaster. They have little, or insufficient, political support, and are almost always ineffective.
Multiple parties seem more suited to parliamentary systems where in a crisis, the government can be changed by things like "no confidence votes." I don't see that working well here.
Edited by pikeshot1600
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Maju
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Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 18:34 |
Originally posted by Illuminati
Originally posted by Maju
Originally posted by Illuminati
In my opinion, Americans dislike the fact that 2 parties control every
facet of the government. It's very difficult for a thrid party to get
started and rise up to a level where it can be considered a challenger
to the Republicans or Democrats.
(...)
as far as improving American democracy, I think more political parties
need to be formed.
|
Dificult to do in a rather homogeneous country used to circuscriptional elections in a winner-takes-all system.
|
The US is far from homogenous. It is the most culturally diverse nation
in the world. And there are independents in congress already. The only
issue is that people just stick with the two parties and don't relaly
care about third parties. And the political climate makes it difficult for a third to become all that powerful
|
I mean that you don't have nationalist or regionalist parties, like in
the UK or Spain or India, to add colour to the parlament. Your
diversity is not reflected in politics, at least not that way.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 18:49 |
Originally posted by Maju
Originally posted by Illuminati
Originally posted by Maju
Originally posted by Illuminati
In my opinion, Americans dislike the fact that 2 parties control every facet of the government. It's very difficult for a thrid party to get started and rise up to a level where it can be considered a challenger to the Republicans or Democrats.
(...)
as far as improving American democracy, I think more political parties need to be formed.
|
Dificult to do in a rather homogeneous country used to circuscriptional elections in a winner-takes-all system.
|
The US is far from homogenous. It is the most culturally diverse nation in the world. And there are independents in congress already. The only issue is that people just stick with the two parties and don't relaly care about third parties. And the political climate makes it difficult for a third to become all that powerful
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I mean that you don't have nationalist or regionalist parties, like in the UK or Spain or India, to add colour to the parlament. Your diversity is not reflected in politics, at least not that way.
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Our regionalists are mostly confined to the fans of state university football teams .
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Beylerbeyi
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Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 19:14 |
I see nothing wrong with lighthearted questions, but what starts me up is when questions like "Where are the WMD?" and "Why shoot to kill?". These questions have, for one, been answered many times, and are just posted to start more flame wars. |
US has invaded our neighbour claiming that they have illegal WMDs. Which never materialised. My question is perfectly valid, if a tad rhetorical. I am not interested in a flame war, if you don't want one, don't flame anyone. 'If you can't take the heat, leave the kitchen'
More questions,
- What percentage of Americans believe that Iraq had WMDs at the beginning of the war, but hid them or gave them to someone?
- Why does the US spend more than the rest of the world put together on weapons?
- Why does the US does not allow poor African countries to produce cheap AIDS drugs?
- Nuclear non-proliferation treaty says 'non-nuclear states should not develop nukes, and nuclear states should not develop new nukes, and the latter should work towards nuclear disarmament'. Why does the US accuse states such as Iran and N Korea whereas it does not comply with the agreement itself? Can this be called hypocracy?
- Why is the US, other than Israel (a.k.a. his master's voice), only state in the world which wants to overturn the current international agreement which bans militarisation of space?
- Before past elections in Lebanon (just after elections in Iraq), Dubya said 'Syria should end occupation of Lebanon, because it is impossible to have fair elections when a country is under foreign occupation'. Do you agree?
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Thegeneral
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Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 19:38 |
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi
I see nothing wrong with lighthearted questions, but what starts me up is when questions like "Where are the WMD?" and "Why shoot to kill?". These questions have, for one, been answered many times, and are just posted to start more flame wars. |
US has invaded our neighbour claiming that they have illegal WMDs. Which never materialised. My question is perfectly valid, if a tad rhetorical. I am not interested in a flame war, if you don't want one, don't flame anyone. 'If you can't take the heat, leave the kitchen'
More questions,
- What percentage of Americans believe that Iraq had WMDs at the beginning of the war, but hid them or gave them to someone?
- Why does the US spend more than the rest of the world put together on weapons?
- Why does the US does not allow poor African countries to produce cheap AIDS drugs?
- Nuclear non-proliferation treaty says 'non-nuclear states should not develop nukes, and nuclear states should not develop new nukes, and the latter should work towards nuclear disarmament'. Why does the US accuse states such as Iran and N Korea whereas it does not comply with the agreement itself? Can this be called hypocracy?
- Why is the US, other than Israel (a.k.a. his master's voice), only state in the world which wants to overturn the current international agreement which bans militarisation of space?
- Before past elections in Lebanon (just after elections in Iraq), Dubya said 'Syria should end occupation of Lebanon, because it is impossible to have fair elections when a country is under foreign occupation'. Do you agree?
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Let me explain a little more. I have no problem with these questions, but when you purposly phrase them so they sound agtagonizing, that is when I get annoyed. The last few pages have been worded very nicely, but you seem to have a lot of resentment which is easy to pick up. This is what I want you to refrain from because it does break the AE rules, and I will not hesitate to respond if you do so.
Now...
- I do not know the numbers, but if you think logically, you will see that there is just as much of a possiblity that he did have them as much as he didn't.
- The US spends more on weapons (although I am not sure about all the world together) because, quite simply, we are one of the largest military powers and are currently at war. Don't countries create armamant during war time?
- How many of those "poor countries" could afford the drugs anyways even if they were made?
- No it could not be called hypocracy. It could be called defensive and protective. What is to stop N. Korea and Iran from using their weapons if they get them? We should stop them before they even become a threat. America, on the other hand, has not used them since WWII and we used them to END the war, no matter how much you would like to debate that.
- I do not have any answwer to this one, i have not heard of it.
- Yes, I do believe that. And, as you so very subtly hinted at , America IS NOT occupying Iraq. We are there at the request of the Iraqis and their government and if the Iraqi government tells us to leave, we are obliged to leave or we then would be considered an occupation force. do not mix those up.
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SearchAndDestroy
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Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 19:43 |
- What percentage of Americans believe that Iraq had WMDs at the beginning of the war, but hid them or gave them to someone? |
I'm sure thegeneral will have a answer for this.
- Why does the US spend more than the rest of the world put together on weapons? |
It's also research on protection. I also believe we are one of the few countries trying to produce less-lethal weapons for wide military use. The objective in some of the research is to one day just incapacitate the enemy instead of killing him.
But we spend so much to keep us on top. We continuely update our equipment and come up with new developments, like recently we changed the training alittle to fit in with the kind of warfare we are facing in Iraq.
- Why does the US does not allow poor African countries to produce cheap AIDS drugs? |
Lobbist, I can't stand the idea of them. The governor in my state wants to get rid of them in my state so no politician can be influenced by them.
- Nuclear non-proliferation treaty says 'non-nuclear states should not develop nukes, and nuclear states should not develop new nukes, and the latter should work towards nuclear disarmament'. Why does the US accuse states such as Iran and N Korea whereas it does not comply with the agreement itself? Can this be called hypocracy? |
You honestly have to ask, the answer is simple, because we can. But I'll agree with you, it's wrong.
- Why is the US, other than Israel (a.k.a. his master's voice), only state in the world which wants to overturn the current international agreement which bans militarisation of space? |
You really hate us Americans don't you, I don't believe we put down your country. Anyways we give money to Israel and many of us Americans don't like it, but they have no control over us. They do have influence from lobbist, if you don't like it come over here with money and lobby yourself. It's alittle expensive and if you don't have enough money they will basicly brush you off.
- Before past elections in Lebanon (just after elections in Iraq), Dubya said 'Syria should end occupation of Lebanon, because it is impossible to have fair elections when a country is under foreign occupation'. Do you agree? |
You'll have to ask someone else about it, I followed the story alittle but not enough to give you a answer on how I feel about it. But the people of Lebanon were happy, and they don't seem like the radical type of people, so that's good right? Then again I don't know much about the situation.
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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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