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why didn't ancient persia ever conquer india?

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: why didn't ancient persia ever conquer india?
    Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 19:27
Originally posted by ruffian

Originally posted by Sparten

No. Dead serious. Maydan mein ah jahain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindi#Varieties_and_registers
Aaap jung chedna chahte hain?
Nahin mein sirif such chatha huon.
 
Anyhow, the seem to call all N Indian languages as "Hindi" which is palpably wrong. I stand by that.
 
 
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  Quote ruffian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 02:51
Originally posted by Sparten

Originally posted by ruffian

Originally posted by Sparten

No. Dead serious. Maydan mein ah jahain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindi#Varieties_and_registers
Aaap jung chedna chahte hain?
Nahin mein sirif such chatha huon.
 
Anyhow, the seem to call all N Indian languages as "Hindi" which is palpably wrong. I stand by that.
 

No. These are just dialects of hindi which is spoken in uttar pradesh (most populous state in India) , Bihar, Madhya Pradesh, Haryana, Rajasthan. If you add the population of these states it is more then 1%! Where did you get this data from?
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  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 06:22
India was very wealthy during most of its history. Colombus didnt attempt to circumnavigate the world because he was bored, rather because he was hoping to trade with Indians.
 
Jewelery of Jaipur, Gold of Hyderabad, and Film Industry of Mumbai have kept India rich for thousands of years. Before there was Brad Pitt, there was Dilip Kumar.
 
 
 
Okay, im just joking about the movie industry. However, Wikipedia your face, my friends.
 
You will notice India will maintain top 3 positions throughout history, until the British Empire; which is why I say they were the worst disaster in Bharati History.
 
In fact, look at 1870. There is a seperate section for British Empire, and #3 is British Raj. Incredible.  


Edited by Mughaal - 01-Mar-2008 at 06:23
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 07:08
Originally posted by Mughaal

India was very wealthy during most of its history. Colombus didnt attempt to circumnavigate the world because he was bored, rather because he was hoping to trade with Indians.
 
Jewelery of Jaipur, Gold of Hyderabad, and Film Industry of Mumbai have kept India rich for thousands of years. Before there was Brad Pitt, there was Dilip Kumar.
 
 
 
Okay, im just joking about the movie industry. However, Wikipedia your face, my friends.
 
You will notice India will maintain top 3 positions throughout history, until the British Empire; which is why I say they were the worst disaster in Bharati History.
 
In fact, look at 1870. There is a seperate section for British Empire, and #3 is British Raj. Incredible.  
 
     The British was the biggest disaster that ever befell this region... ever.
 
     It should also be noted that India started falling behinde even in Mughal times. Mughals like the british were foreign rulers who were not at all interested in the well being of the general populace and only on enriching themselves by ruling through turkish army most notabely their cavalry.


Edited by bilal_ali_2000 - 01-Mar-2008 at 07:14
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  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 07:12
Also, I already told you guys, the reasons the Persians could not hold India was because they lost in a Cricket match and went home.
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  Quote ruffian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 12:53
Originally posted by Mughaal

Also, I already told you guys, the reasons the Persians could not hold India was because they lost in a Cricket match and went home.

Great posts Mughaal especially on how rich India was. Hey did the persians loose in a game of polo and not cricket perhaps?
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  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 15:51
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

 
     The British was the biggest disaster that ever befell this region... ever.
 
     It should also be noted that India started falling behinde even in Mughal times. Mughals like the british were foreign rulers who were not at all interested in the well being of the general populace and only on enriching themselves by ruling through turkish army most notabely their cavalry.
 
Just to point out though, Mughals lived in India and supported India with Mughal money; Britain didnt do the same.
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 16:11
Originally posted by Suren

so powerful Indian emperors never wanted to conquer other countries...#@!Confused Hey wake up! if the Indians were that much brave and fierce how come they never conquered Persia, China, central Asia or near east?
         I think this line of thought needs to be a bit elaborated upon. It should be noted that in the entire history of the sub-continent there is only one political entity which tried to behave like an Empire and that was the Gupta empire of around 300 B.C. I think that their fourth or fifth emperor was Ashoka. He was called Chand Ashoka by the general populace for coming to power by killing his brothers a rather routine affair in most other kingdoms, for example in the mughal line there was hardly any emperor which did not come to power by killing his brothers or father or at least imprisoning them. Then Ashoka went to the task of doing what empires do which is annexing territory to his empire. Enter Kalinga whose king was rather a proud man and he vowed not to giev in too Ashoka. Naturally enough Ashoka attacked the kingdom. They were no hopers in front of the mighty Army of Ashoka. But according to subcontinental tradition the males of the kingdom of Kalinga did not surrendered to the armies of Ashoka and preffered to die. This resulted in massive bloodshed. Ashoka was watching this all from behinde the lines and his reaction to this all was "Oh!!! What have i done". Then in his privacy he pondered over the fact that the blood of all those which he shed did him no harm unlike those before which he had killed (like his brothers). He then made a decision and decided to embrace Bhuddism and Bhuddism speard under his rule. His nature can be peeked in one of his lines in the Ashoka pillars
"I think all of humanity as my children and just like all every father wants his children to be happy i also want all of humanity to be happy"
          And so that is how the only native empire of the sub-continent ended. 
        After that there was hardly ever any political entity which can be called an empire, and by empire i mean a political entity which annexes territories which are completely out of its sphere of influence, after that.
       The people of the subcontinent proudly claim that they have not attacked any foreign country for the last 10,000 years and while that maybe slightly incorrect but generally it is true that the people of this region have almost never indluged in unprovoked agression against anyone right throughout their history. The two sole superpowers of the ancient world India and China never locked horns despite being right next to each other for this same reason. Uneccessay bloodshed especially one gennerally whose sole purpose is the blostering of the ego of one man (the emperor) was looked down upon by the culture.


Edited by bilal_ali_2000 - 01-Mar-2008 at 17:01
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 16:15
Originally posted by Mughaal

Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

 
     The British was the biggest disaster that ever befell this region... ever.
 
     It should also be noted that India started falling behinde even in Mughal times. Mughals like the british were foreign rulers who were not at all interested in the well being of the general populace and only on enriching themselves by ruling through turkish army most notabely their cavalry.
 
Just to point out though, Mughals lived in India and supported India with Mughal money; Britain didnt do the same.
       Yes but the money was used to built projects like the Taj Mahal and the peacock throne. These type of projects do not bloster the infrastructure and don't lead to further development. 
           Akbar planned city which was abondoned after only 15 years just shows you that how reckless Mughals could be with their money


Edited by bilal_ali_2000 - 01-Mar-2008 at 18:11
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 17:26
Bilal, the reason China and India never went to war is due to the fact China did nit always rule Tibet (which is next to India) and there is a little thing called the Himalayas seperating the two.
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 18:02

^      Yes of course, you are right. But still nations with even more geographical disonance locked horns. These regions never clashed with each other even in indo-Chian where both of them had their interests.    



Edited by bilal_ali_2000 - 03-Mar-2008 at 08:25
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2008 at 13:14
         And even that first empire arose was to derive the froeigner Greeks out.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2008 at 18:41
actually if you look at persian historical writings, it doesn't really mention India that often. Maybe the reason they didn't go east of Indus is that they had no idea what India beyond Indus was like.
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 08:22
Originally posted by saba

actually if you look at persian historical writings, it doesn't really mention India that often. Maybe the reason they didn't go east of Indus is that they had no idea what India beyond Indus was like.
          The Elamites before them (who might have been Dravidians) did not look east and let the Indus Valley Civilization have Afghanistan. Iranians also apart from northern Afghanistan did not look east too much. I think it was because of Geography, the mountains of Afghanistan as well as the Himalayas prevented these people from looking to east too much.       
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  Quote ruffian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 12:02
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

Originally posted by saba

actually if you look at persian historical writings, it doesn't really mention India that often. Maybe the reason they didn't go east of Indus is that they had no idea what India beyond Indus was like.
          The Elamites before them (who might have been Dravidians) did not look east and let the Indus Valley Civilization have Afghanistan. Iranians also apart from northern Afghanistan did not look east too much. I think it was because of Geography, the mountains of Afghanistan as well as the Himalayas prevented these people from looking to east too much.       

I do not think geography was a deterrant at all. Trade routes existed in Indus valley civilization using which goods of this civilization have been unearthed in mesopatamia. People knew how to cross these mountains through passes. Real reason was that persians did not lock horns with Indians , India was a formidable entity. Please Darius's letter requesting for help from Porus.

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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 12:34

Originally posted by baniyas

^ your axis theory is wrong because if you consider pakistan, Pakistan's areas such as Baluchistan and NWFP were under persians more then Indian through history, so how are they part of indian axis?

I really feel offended by these type of comments. People who make these comments should gather their facts more carefully. Baluchistan was never really seriously part of the Persian sphere of influence. There were three Persian empires which exerted influece in this region. The eastern part of the Sassanid empire was hotly contested and it could never be called a real part of the Persian empire. The Saffarid empire controlled western Pakistan for a very a short while and it was not actually ruled by a proper dynasty but rather just a warlord dynasty rather like the Lodhi one. And the Saffavid dynasty ruled only a tiny part of Balochistan. The change of language from a Indo-Aryan one to a Iranian one is very recent considering the antiquity of this region. Before the 12th century the population of Baluchistan was speaking Indo-Aryan Prakrit and only with the arrival of the Westenr Iranian Baloch's did the language changed to an Iranian one. But the history of Balochistan goes very far back in time with the Mehrgarh culture from 10,000 years ago and hence this Iranianization of Baluchistan is very recent. Similarly NWFP historically known as Ganshara the Pakhtuns originally a mountain tribe as indentified by Herodotus moved to south east into NWFP and assimilated a population which spoke the Pothohari Indo-Aryan tongue of hindko and which can still be found mainly concentrated in the cities and comprise 30% of that province's population. And considering the history of this region that too is very recent. Pannini lived in the Peshawar valley and he spoke Sanskrit and the vernacualr language of the population was also a dialect of Sanskrit as his work was on the difference between Vedic Sanskrit and spoken Sanskrit of his times .

So i really don't get what you mean by saying that Balucistan and N.W.F.P have historically been always a part of Persia than ruled by the dynasties from what is now Pakistan. Please back up your claim with historical facts.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 15:26
I didn't say always^ but more part of their history they have been either under persian or central asians. So they are more central asian/persian then they are indian
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 21:37
Originally posted by baniyas

I didn't say always^ but more part of their history they have been either under persian or central asians. So they are more central asian/persian then they are indian
       Please back up waht you are saying. I have told you that the Iranianization of this region is very recent so how can you say that for "most" of their history they have been under Persian rule.       
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  Quote True Afghan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 03:27
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

Originally posted by Sparten

Not really, the Persians in what is now Pakistan had far greater influence esp w of the Indus. The decision to stop at the Beas was based upon the fact that they had reached pretty much the natural boundry. Most people from the west did that, the Afghans and Mongols and Turks.

         I don't tend to agree with that. Apart from the Achaemnids Persia borders never went inside into what is now Pakistan and apart from a few invaders like Nadir Khan Pakistan didn't saw much Persian attempts at expansionism.

The Perisianiazation of the west of Indus was indirect rather than direct. Many groups of people who were heavily Persianized like the Turks, Mughals, Afghans, Balochis (their movement into Baluchistan was not pan Iranian exopansionism) and not Persia itself brought Persian influence there.

But we are talking about a time when Persia had just came into being and in 300 B.C Afghanistan was a lot more under the subcontinental sphere of influence than it was Persian as a few centuries later under the Khushanis it would be a hub of Shiva worship and then later it would be largely Bhuddist.

When the Parsis moved east in about 700 A.D to protect their religion they moved into Gujrat and not what is now Pakistan pretty much indcating that til that time beofre the Afghani, Balochi, Turk and Mughal expansion that area had little Persian influence.

 

 

I agree to some extend but you need to tell me who is a "Persian"? one who speak Farsi language? or one who is from Fars province?

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  Quote True Afghan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 04:31
Originally posted by bilal_ali_2000

Originally posted by saba

actually if you look at persian historical writings, it doesn't really mention India that often. Maybe the reason they didn't go east of Indus is that they had no idea what India beyond Indus was like.
          The Elamites before them (who might have been Dravidians) did not look east and let the Indus Valley Civilization have Afghanistan. Iranians also apart from northern Afghanistan did not look east too much. I think it was because of Geography, the mountains of Afghanistan as well as the Himalayas prevented these people from looking to east too much.       
 

What you mean by "Iranian"? I think you actually mean Iranic ---Pashton, Tajik, Kurd, Persian and Baloch. Iranian means citizen of country "Iran" that included, Azari  Turk, Armani, Asserians, Bakhtari Turks, Turkman, Arab and...

 

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