Who is Jesus Christ, Really?

I didn`t say Jesus cleansed the world of its sin,  however the law of forgivenss was put into man`s conscious.

Originally posted by Atourian No matter how much anybody belittles Jesus himself, his massive influence on much of humanity cannot be ignored. He's simply the best.

Edited by Bugay2 - 16-Jul-2006 at 03:59

Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa Originally posted by Kalevipoeg In the end if Jesus existed it makes no difference, he might have been just some random Palestinian speechman who had spent too much time in the sun and began preaching. Most likely no one even listened him. All theories are equally valid because there is no way to prove anything. One thing that makes it hard to say what Jesus is like is that the main parts of his story from the bible are taken from the Zoroastrian myth Mithras, which was a while before Jesus. Mithras, the son of God, born on December 25 to a virgin. He later was crucified. Sounds very similar to the Christian Jesus, eh?

" Mithraism was one of the major religions of the Roman Empire which was derived from the ancient Persian god of light and wisdom.  The cult of Mithraism was quite prominent in ancient Rome, especially among the military.  Mithra was the god of war, battle, justice, faith, and contract. According to Mithraism, Mithra was called the son of God, was born of a virgin, had disciples, was crucified, rose from the dead on the third day, atoned for the sins of mankind, and returned to heaven."

Originally posted by Komnenos If we accept that he actually existed,( which by no means is certain but probable) then all we know is that he was one of the many Jewish sectarian preachers that populated Palestine during the reign of Emperor Tiberius. Everything else is a simple figment of imagination, depending what you choose to believe in. Neither his life, his deeds nor his words can be historically authenticated.  Jesus really is what you make of him.

Originally posted by gargoyle Remember People, belief in Jesus is a question of Faith and not a question of Historical Reality.

Jesus was God incarnate.  He proclaimed himself as such on countless occasions.  He was the only prophet or religious leader (from the 5 main branches/sources of religion, ie Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity) to have professed/claimed himself as "God".

Matter of fact, Buddha, Mohammed, Confucius, Zoroaster, etc., never claimed to know God personally, never claimed they could give eternal life, never claimed they were able to grant forgiveness at a future judgement (even though they all believed in a future judgement), none of them claimed their teachings was meant for all peoples of all nations, in all ages.

I think most of us are guilty of being 'misinformed', 'misguided' and 'ignorant' of knowing who Jesus was exactly, and you won't know who
he was exactly or really (as the topic states) until you've 'actually' read
the bible.. (something i have only recently done myself).. otherwise it's
like giving a book review on a book that hasn't been read... how will you essentially know about the characters/figures depicted in them.

There is overwhelming evidence that the New Testament is an accurate and trustworthy historical document, but many people are still reluctant to believe what it says unless there is also some independent, non-biblical testimony that validates its statements.

This is "probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New Testament."  Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:

Nero fastened the guilt on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, (latin form of Christ) from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty (ie crucifixion) during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome
(Tacitus, Annals 15.44, cited in Strobel, The Case for Christ, 82.)

This confirms much of what the Gospels tell us about the death of Jesus.

***

Evidence from Pliny the Younger (Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor)

Early Christianity can be found in his letters to Emperor Trajan. In one of his specific letters, dated around AD 112, he asks Trajan's advice about the suitable way to conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians.  Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of Christianity.
(Pliny, Epistles x. 96, cited in Bruce, Christian Origins, 25; Habermas,
The Historical Jesus, 198). 9) (Ibid., 27).

They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to do any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver
it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble
to partake of food--but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.
(Pliny, Letters, transl. by William Melmoth, rev. by W.M.L. Hutchinson (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1935), vol. II, X:96, cited in Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 199).

***

Josephus (a first century Jewish historian)

On 2 occasions in his Jewish Antiquities, he mentions Jesus.  The 2nd, less revealing, reference describes the condemnation of one "James" by the Jewish Sanhedrin.
"This James was the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ"
(Josephus, Antiquities xx. 200, cited in Bruce, Christian Origins, 36).

In the "Testimonium Flavianum" declares:
"About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he wrought surprising feats.  He was the Christ. When Pilate condemned him to be crucified, those who had come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared restored to life.  And the tribe of Christians has not disappeared".
(Josephus, Antiquities 18.63-64, cited in Yamauchi, "Jesus Outside
the New Testament", 212).

Evidence from the Babylonian Talmud

The earliest period of compilation occurred between 70-200 AD.
(Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 202-03)
The most significant reference to Jesus from this period states:

(The Babylonian Talmud, transl. by I. Epstein (London: Soncino, 1935),
vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a)
On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged.
(Yeshu/Yeshua = Jesus in hebrew)
(hanged = can function as a synonym for "crucified." For eg, Galatians 3:13 declares that Christ was "hanged", and Luke 23:39 applies this term to the criminals who were crucified with Jesus).

For forty days before the execution took place, a herald cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy".
(The cry of the herald may simply indicate that the Jewish leaders were planning to have Jesus stoned, but Roman involvement changed their plans)
(sorcery = in reference to the Pharisees' accusations that Jesus cast
out demons)
(Apparently Jesus' miracles were too well attested to deny, so the only alternative was to ascribe them to sorcery! Likewise, the charge of enticing Israel to apostasy parallels Luke's account of the Jewish leaders who accused Jesus of misleading the nation with his teaching. Such a charge tends to corroborate the New Testament record of Jesus' powerful teaching ministry. Thus, if read carefully, this passage from the Talmud confirms much of our knowledge about Jesus from the New Testament).

***

Lucian of Samosata (2nd century Greek satirist)

"The Christians worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account... [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods
of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws".

( Lucian, The Death of Peregrine, 11-13, in The Works of Lucian of Samosata, transl. by H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler, 4 vols. (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949), vol. 4., cited in Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 206.)

It implies the belief that Jesus was more than human. Since they denied other gods in order to worship Him, they apparently thought Jesus a greater God than any that Greece had to offer!

***

In summary;

1. Both Josephus and Lucian indicate that Jesus was regarded as wise.
2. Pliny, the Talmud, and Lucian imply He was a powerful and revered teacher.
3. Both Josephus and the Talmud indicate He performed miraculous feats.
4. Tacitus, Josephus, the Talmud, and Lucian all mention that He was crucified.
    Tacitus and Josephus say this occurred under Pontius Pilate.
    And the Talmud declares it happened on the eve of Passover.
5. There are possible references to the Christian belief in Jesus' resurrection in both
    Tacitus and Josephus.
6. Josephus records that Jesus' followers believed He was the Christ, or Messiah.
7. Both Pliny and Lucian indicate that Christians worshipped Jesus as God!

 
Other 1st century anti-Christian historical writers who confirm significant details of the New Testament claims, include Roman Emperor Tacitus, Suetonius and Mara Bar-Serapion.  They all confirm that Jesus and his followers claimed he was God.

***

Mormons believes he and Lucifer(Satan) are brothers.

Originally posted by Le Renard That is correct. Jesus and Lucifer are brothers.

sorry, but that's got to be the most ludicrous thing i have ever heard/read.
also, i wouldn't mind some bible quotes to support this comment/belief??
ps and from a reliable bible source thanks.. none of these modified versions, that have
been cut down to size or modified to their liking or to suit their own desires. *rolleyes*

Jesus was God (and i can give more proof/evidence regarding this)...
God created Lucifer, so putting God's creature on an equal par with Him, is just unacceptable/laughable, really.

Originally posted by Le Renard In the premortal existence there was a great meeting in Heaven where God presented his plan unto his children (us). Lucifer was cast off from the presence of the Lord. 1/3 of God's children followed him. The 2/3 that stayed with God are the ones who have come down to earth and will come down to earth.

*huh* Again, wouldn't mind some bible references on this?
i think you are confusing "man" with "angels".. Man has never pre-existed in Heaven.  You seem to be describing the 'fall' of the angels, who then became demons.

Old Testament prophecies foretold the life and mission of Jesus Christ
hundreds of years before He was born.  There are 2000 specific prophecies which have already been fulfilled.  This is particularly astounding considering when we recall that there are no such prophecies in the 'scripture' of any other religion.

Just to name a few;
1.  The Messiah would be preceded by a messenger.
2.  The Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.
3.  The Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah.
4.  The Messiah would enter Jerusalem on a colt.
5.  The Messiah would be betrayed by a friend.
6.  The Messiah would be sold for 30 pieces of silver.
7.  The Messiah would be spit upon and beaten.
8.  The Messiah would be wounded by His enemies.
9.  The Messiah would be silent before His accusers.
10. The betrayal money thrown in the temple and given for a potter's field.
11. The Messiah would have His hands and feet priced.
12. The Messiah would be crucified with theives.
13. Prophet Daniel predicted when an anointed one would be rejected.
14. Isaiah foresaw the virgin birth of Jesus.
15. God promised another prophet like Moses.
16. God's salvation would reach the ends of the earth (spread of Christianity.
17. God's servant would be buried in a rich man's tomb.
18. Jesus' resurrection was foreshadowed in the Old Testament.

This link goes into more detail, including Old and New Testament comparisons... there's overwhelming evidence.
http://www.konig.org/messianic.htm

There's more to follow, esp if anyone's interested ??

"Very truly I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life and does not come under judgement but has passed from death to life"

Originally posted by Ellin Old Testament prophecies foretold the life and mission of Jesus Christhundreds of years before He was born.� There are 2000 specific prophecies which have already been fulfilled.� This is particularly astounding

Not, if you regard it as dress rehearsal for the creation of a myth. If Jesus never did exist but was a composite of people and events, mixed with myth, then it's hardly surprising that the legend was created as having satisfied all these prophecies.

Josephus (a first century Jewish historian) On 2 occasions in his Jewish Antiquities, he mentions Jesus.

Oh heck no. Josephus mentions nineteen completely different people named Jesus. Four of them were High Priests of the Temple (Jesus ben Phiabi, Jesus ben Sec, Jesus ben Damneus and Jesus ben Gamaliel).

The Jesus who is mentioned as being the brother of James, is Jesus bar Damneus, who Agrippa installed as High Priest after executing the former High Priest, who had accused James of something or other.

There are so many Jesuses in Josephus, they form gangs and throw stones at each other over the High Priesthood:

"And now Jesus, the son of Gamaliel, became the successor of Jesus, the son of Damneus, in the high priesthood, which the king had taken from the other; on which account a sedition arose between the high priests, with regard to one another; for they got together bodies of the boldest sort of the people, and frequently came, from reproaches, to throwing of stones at each other."

Jesus was God incarnate. He proclaimed himself as such on countless occasions. He was the only prophet or religious leader (from the 5 main branches/sources of religion, ie Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity) to have professed/claimed himself as "God".

Hardly! There is nothing in any of the scriptures that has Jesus proclaiming himself to be God incarnate.

The story of Jesus's claims to Messiah-hood are not at all unusual for the time. There were dozens upon dozens of religious zealots in Judea known to have proclaimed themselves the Messiah during the turbulent period from about the 2nd century BC to the early 2nd century AD. The notion of an individual with direct relationship with God go back thousands of years in Hebrew mythology.

Edited by edgewaters - 18-Jul-2006 at 01:31

Originally posted by Komnenos The possibilty that Christianity arose without having posessed an actual Christ is rather small.

Not really, syncretism can just as easily account for it, especially considering the time period and the prevalence of syncretic religions in Judea and throughout the Classical world during that period.
    

 qoute-Even when I was a believer, I always had a lot of problem with the awkward way the concept of the Holy Trinity was presented to me and defended by those who talked it. As a result, even while I was leading Bible study groups, I always secretly wished no one would ask me detailed questions on this concept because I wouldn't know what the heck I was talking about. As far as I know, the concept of "Trinity" is one of the most key concepts in Christianity that do not have a clear scriptural basis and it is definitely a subsequent theological "add-on".

Originally posted by gcle2003 Where does he proclaim himself to be God? I can't find it in my copies of the Gospels.   That apart, how does someone proclaiming himself God prove that he is?

John 17-20