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Russian Hostage Crisis

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Jalisco Lancer View Drop Down
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  Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Russian Hostage Crisis
    Posted: 06-Sep-2004 at 23:30

 

  Too sad that a bunch of fanatics ( from whatever religion they are/were ) targeted a group of inocent people.

   If they wanted to die, why not face as a man to the russian army ?

   Crazy and coward enough to kill innocent civilians, but not with enough guts to fight against professional and trained soldiers ? What a crap

   May the innocents slaughtered rest in peace

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  Quote John Doe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2004 at 01:01
Amen to that Jalisco.
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  Quote Gallipoli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2004 at 03:25
This is where Islam goes extreme....Shooting kids on the back is not being religious. These people are who use the word "Jihad" for their inhuman purposes.
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  Quote Chono Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2004 at 08:27
Chechens did a huge mistake by involving the whole fundamentalist muslim-terrorist elements in the struggle. Now they're getting razed by russian forces, too bad. They became a toy for two corrupt forces. I guess this would push the other separatist minded republics to different solutions.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2004 at 18:42

Looks like someone in Russia discovered real scenario and publicated it. Affcourse he is no longer a journalist because was imidatelly fired. I mean the chief of Izviestia newspaper.

Russian special forces didnt clean the area around the school and there were thousands of civilians - of whom hundrieds were armed. They started attacking the school.

Before it izviesta found that there were much more hostages in the school than russian authorities officially claimed. Someone in Kremlin decided that it is too much, talked to the newspapers owners and now the people who were describing whole event got to look for new job.

Long live Russian democracy and freedom of speech. Now after Jukos example and other similar examples there are few who dare to criticise Putin and his henchmen.



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  Quote sephodwyrm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2004 at 01:23

I wonder why there's some people who criticizes Russia no matter what Russia does. Russia-, Sino- and Islam- phobe still reign pretty supreme in this forum. Things never seem to improve.

At least feel sympathy for those that died. If those terrorists have some form of moral conscience and are truly love Allah they'll be attacking the Red Army or Putin's office instead (and not some school with innocent school children and shooting at them when they're running away, not giving them food, water or even allowing them to go to the bathroom beforehand).

As for the gas, it killed many people because most of those in the theater didn't have any food or water for more than 24 hours. The only criticism I have about this matter is how the attack was only carried out in 62 hours. The special forces should have moved in within 48 hours!!

"Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them"
"Not what goes into the mouth that defiles the Man, but what comes out of the mouth" Matthew 7:12, 15:11
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  Quote Gallipoli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2004 at 05:05
Well good old Chechen separatism has turned into terrorism. No wonder why the Al-Queida videos always showed the execution of Russian soldiers while showing clips of other atrocities...
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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2004 at 15:20
Did anyone read about Putin going ballistic on Western reporters today?
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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2004 at 16:53
Russia Threatens to Strike Terror Bases

42 minutes ago

By STEVE GUTTERMAN, Associated Press Writer

MOSCOW - A wounded Russia threatened Wednesday to strike against terrorists "in any region of the world," offered a $10 million reward for information leading to the killing or capture of Chechnya (news - web sites)'s top rebel leaders, and criticized the United States for its willingness to hold talks with Chechen separatists.

Photo
AP Photo

AFP Photo
AFP
Slideshow Slideshow: Terror Attack On Russian School

AP Video Russia Seeks Info on Rebels in School Attack
(AP Video)
 

The announcements marked a show of resolve aimed at Russia's stunned citizens, as well as Western countries President Vladimir Putin (news - web sites) accuses of hindering its fight against terror, in the wake of three attacks that killed more than 400 people in the past two weeks.

In a nationally televised meeting, Prosecutor-General Vladimir Ustinov also briefed Putin on the investigation into the taking of more than 1,200 hostages in a school last week in the southern town of Beslan.

His was the first official acknowledgment that the number of hostages had been so high; the government initially said about 350 people were seized. A regional official later said the number had been 1,181.

Col.-Gen. Yuri Baluyevsky, chief of the general staff of Russia's armed forces, asserted Russia's right to strike terrorists beyond its borders.

"As for carrying out preventive strikes against terrorist bases ... we will take all measures to liquidate terrorist bases in any region of the world," he told reporters.

Baluyevsky made his comments alongside NATO (news - web sites)'s supreme allied commander in Europe, Gen. James Jones, after talks on Russia-NATO military cooperation, including anti-terror efforts.

European Union (news - web sites) officials reacted cautiously to Baluyevsky's statements, with spokeswoman Emma Udwin saying she could not be sure whether they represented government policy. Udwin said the 25-nation EU is against "extra-judicial killings" in form of pre-emptive strikes.

Russian leaders have previously claimed the right to attack terrorists beyond the country's borders tacitly threatening neighboring Georgia that Moscow would pursue Chechen rebels allegedly sheltering on its territory. Two Russian agents were convicted this year for the February car bombing in Qatar that killed a Chechen rebel leader, Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev. Russia denied involvement in the assassination.

The Bush administration also has a policy of pre-emptive military action against terrorists.

NATO officials declined comment. The alliance released a statement with Russia stressing both sides' "determination to strengthen and intensify common efforts to fight the scourge of terrorism."

Nationalist lawmaker Dmitry Rogozin told Ekho Moskvy radio the warning appeared to be an effort to ease fears of terrorism in Russia following the crashes of two planes after explosions, a Moscow suicide bombing and the school seizure.

Anger over the school attack simmered in North Ossetia, the southern Russian region bordering Chechnya mourning the deaths of hundreds of children, parents and teachers.

Regional President Alexander Dzasokhov promised a furious crowd of 1,000 that the local government would step down within two days and said he would follow suit if he could not fulfill the protesters' demands for an independent inquiry the first sign of officials being punished for failing to prevent the attack.

Russia's Federal Security Service offered a reward of $10 million its biggest bounty ever for information that could help "neutralize" Chechen rebel leaders Shamil Basayev and Aslan Maskhadov, whom officials have accused of masterminding last week's hostage crisis.

The agency said Basayev and Maskhadov have been responsible for "inhuman terrorist acts on the territory of the Russian Federation."

Maskhadov, the former president of Chechnya, had denied any involvement in the school standoff, according to aides. There has been no word from Basayev, a longtime rebel warlord who had claimed involvement in bloody raids and hostage-takings in the past.

 

Basayev is believed to be hiding in Chechnya; Russian officials have sometimes reported that Maskhadov has left the country.

Ustinov said 326 hostages were killed and 727 wounded in the school attack, which ended Friday in a wave of explosions and gunfire. North Ossetian Deputy Health Minister Teimuraz Revazov later said 329 were confirmed dead.

Ustinov said 210 bodies had been identified, and forensic workers also were trying to identify 32 body fragments.

His deputy, Sergei Fridinsky, said the bodies of 12 attackers had been identified and that some had taken part in a deadly June attack in the neighboring republic of Ingushetia, the Interfax news agency reported.

The authorities appeared to be backpedaling from their previous insistence on describing the attack as the work of international terrorists. At a meeting with visiting Western journalists and analysts Monday, Putin repeated investigators' allegations that 10 of the attackers were of Arab descent and denied that the hostage-taking was linked to Russia's policy in Chechnya.

However, Ustinov said nothing about Arabs in his briefing. Asked about the silence, a Kremlin spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, told The Associated Press that forensic experts were working to identify the terrorists "and until that work is finished, it's impossible to tell."

"According to preliminary data, there were Arabs," he said. "No one is denying the presence of Arabs."

Fridinsky also appeared to contradict Putin by saying the attackers' demands were tied to the war in Chechnya.

"The demands concerned chiefly political motives and were related to the anti-terrorist operation," he said, according to Interfax, using the formulation Russian authorities use instead of war.

The global issue of terrorism drew Russia closer to the United States and other Western nations following the Sept. 11 attacks, when Putin expressed support for U.S. anti-terror efforts.

But since the attack in Beslan, Putin and other top officials have turned up the volume on their accusations that Western nations apply double standards and hinder Russia's fight against terrorism by questioning its policy in Chechnya.

Responding to a statement by State Department spokesman Richard Boucher, Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said Wednesday that "we solve our internal problems ourselves and there's no need to search for an American route to political normalization in Chechnya," Interfax reported.

Foreign Ministry spokesman Alexander Yakovenko also lashed out at the United States, saying talks with Chechens linked to rebel leaders are "absolutely unacceptable."

"After all, we are talking about those individuals who stand behind bloody attacks by terrorists in Russia, which have drawn the indignation of the entire civilized word," Yakovenko said in a statement.

While joining condemnation of the school attack, the State Department said Tuesday that Moscow ultimately must hold political talks with rebellious Chechen leaders.

Wednesday's TV broadcast of Ustinov's briefing was the first attempt by the government to give a formal account of the tragedy. The prosecutor said his information was based on interviews with witnesses and the one alleged attacker.

Ustinov said the approximately 30 attackers, including two women, had met in a forest early Sept. 1 before heading to School No. 1 in Beslan in a truck and two jeeps packed with weapons and ammunition.

People who had gathered to mark the first day of school were herded into the gym by the militants, some of whom voiced objections to seizing a school. Detainee Nur-Pashi Kulayev said the group's leader, who went by the name Colonel, shot one of the militants and said he would do the same to any other militants or hostages who did not show "unconditional obedience."

Later that day, he detonated the explosives worn by two female attackers, killing them to enforce the lesson, Ustinov said.

One of the militants was stationed with his foot on a button that would set off the explosives, Ustinov said; if he lifted his foot, the bombs strung up around the school gymnasium would detonate, he said.

On Friday, the militants decided to change the arrangement of the explosives, and they appear to have set off one bomb by mistake, Ustinov said. That sparked panic as hostages tried to flee and the attackers opened fire.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=518& ncid=732&e=4&u=/ap/20040908/ap_on_re_eu/russia_schoo l_seizure



Edited by Genghis
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  Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2004 at 17:10

 

  Do you really believe, Russia will mount operations beyond her borders ?

  Israel was sucessful doing that ( Entebe and the revenge operations after the slaugther of israeli athlets in Munich ).

  I see a more cooperative Russia with other former soviet republics and the US to supress any terrorist activities in their influence area.

   What are your thoughts ?

   Regards



Edited by Jalisco Lancer
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2004 at 17:15
Originally posted by Jalisco Lancer


   What are your thoughts ?


As long as Russia continues to oppress people it will be targeted by terrorism. Terrorism is not stopped by killing terrorists, but by taking away the reasons people have to support terrorism.
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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2004 at 19:53

Originally posted by MixcoatlToltecahtecuhtli

Terrorism is not stopped by killing terrorists, but by taking away the reasons people have to support terrorism.

You need both of them, you can't use just violence or just winning hearts and minds, you have to use the iron fist and the velvet glove.

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2004 at 22:50
Russia has proven to be the most inept hostage handler, do I need to cite all of the cases they have failed in the past freaking two years?
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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  Quote babyblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2004 at 08:28

        hmmm.....before the siege ended i was very curious about what the Russians would do to resolve it...are they gonna give in to the demands or are they gonna storm the school disregarding the lifes of the hostages.

        what apparently happened as we found out was that the russians got a very convenient opportunity to storm the place when the terrorists started to fire on fleeing hostages.

                what do you guys think might have happened if that weren't the case? if the hostages didn't attempt to escape and they weren't fired upon...then the russians wouldn't have to try to provide covering fire for the so they can escape.

         the siege woul've dragged on for much longer, and what i'm really interested in finding out was what would've happened otherwise.

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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2004 at 10:04
Originally posted by babyblue

what do you guys think might have happened if that weren't the case? if the hostages didn't attempt to escape and they weren't fired upon...then the russians wouldn't have to try to provide covering fire for the so they can escape.

         the siege woul've dragged on for much longer, and what i'm really interested in finding out was what would've happened otherwise.

Nothing good. The terrorists refused the kids water and food. I wonder if an earlier assault would even have been a better choice. Easy to tell in hindsight though...

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2004 at 13:46
I used to support the Chechens, I really cant do that anymore I suppose.
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I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2004 at 14:38
Originally posted by Tobodai

I used to support the Chechens, I really cant do that anymore I suppose.

You still can support the Chechen people. Supporting the people doesn't make you a supporter of those terrorists.
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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2004 at 15:14

Everybody seems to be against the Chechens now... weird indeed. Some sensless jibbery about the Chechens going bad from that day on since some of their men occupied the schoolhouse. Chechens have fought Russians for over a century and the Russians still claim them to be their people or something like that. The Chechens do one atrocity (and it is indeed an extremely evil one) of this scale for the first time, but the Russians have done it for decades, whenever the policy demands it and noone has ever talked about the Russian soldiers "going bad." Professional Russian soldiers raiding, raping and killing Chechens of all ages in the Chechen villages has made zero impact to the world public this far.

And what is this demand of aid in a war against terrorism from Putin or whatever. Russia hasn't done one good thing to his neighbours in its history (except make them poorer than ever) and now it wants their friendship and support in not putting their invasion under question. This is just a good time for Putin to invade some new areas where "terrorists" are probably holding up.

Putin had better stay in his own borders!!!! 



Edited by Kalevipoeg
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2004 at 16:57

For the 98237th time (well, the 3rd tme, to be more precise, but I am still basically repeating myself), Russia has already given Chechnya functional independence twice. The first time, the region turned into a criminal state, filled with bandits, raids were sometimes launched on Russia, ethnic Russians were cleansed out (250,000 in 1990, 30,000 in 1994). The second time, Chechnya turned into a criminal and a Wahhabist state, and once again swarmed with bandits, and the leader of one attacked Russia straight out with 2000 troops, thus justifying Chechnya's later re-evacuation). What other option is there? Chechnya has sronng clan traditions, which prevent the emergence of a strong peacetime leader capable of controlling the region - the only option is having a leader, loyal to and supported by superior, foreign armed forces. Otherwise, it sinks into both a crime magnet (like Nagorno-Karabh, Transdnietra, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, need I name more?), a feuding region dominated by warlords (Afghanistan) and possibly a Wahhabist state, with sharia law, and giving refuge to extreme Islamic groups.

So a question for you Kalevipoeg - what precisely would you have Russia do, in regards to Chechnya?

I have suggested improving living standards, Chechenization, stabilization (all 3 succesfully pursued by Kadyrov) and improving anti-terror organizations (obviously, this hasn't been as succesful).

"Chechens have fought Russians for over a century and the Russians still claim them to be their people or something like that. The Chechens do one atrocity (and it is indeed an extremely evil one) of this scale for the first time, but the Russians have done it for decades, whenever the policy demands it and noone has ever talked about the Russian soldiers "going bad." Professional Russian soldiers raiding, raping and killing Chechens of all ages in the Chechen villages has made zero impact to the world public this far. "

Chechnya was gradually annexed in early and middle 19th C, because of their raids against outlying settlements and the routes going to Armenia and Georgia (important then because of the Ottoman Porta). Besides, imperialism was accepted then. What atrocities have Russians committed against Chechens 'for decades'? As for the conduct of professional Russian soldiers, obviously some violations have occured and some have escaped punishment. But, given the amount of bandits in the area, I wouldn't be in the slightest surprised to learn that they are responsible for the great majority of civilian deaths in the region. And you talk of 'zero impact on the world public'? Just what are you smoking? During the theatre siege, the BBC dared to refer to the Chechen terrorist bastards as 'freedom fighters'. Plus, if anything, you should know well that you yourself are the perfect counter-argument to your original argument!

"And what is this demand of aid in a war against terrorism from Putin or whatever. Russia hasn't done one good thing to his neighbours in its history (except make them poorer than ever) and now it wants their friendship and support in not putting their invasion under question. This is just a good time for Putin to invade some new areas where "terrorists" are probably holding up. Putin had better stay in his own borders!!!!"

Firstly, precisely what good has Estonia to its neighbours? Secondly, Russia voluntarily let China have Manchuria back in...1949 was it?, and in the late 1980's all of Eastern Europe. Precisely what areas does he want to invade, and what grounding have you got for your assertation that he will invade something? Anyway, don't worry, Estonia is safe, as long as it keeps its nationalistic Russophobic policies within its 'own borders'.



Edited by Lord Anatolius
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  Quote Chono Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2004 at 16:59
Were the terrosists chechen at all? Supposedly lots of arabs were found. In any case, that Maskhadov guy was trying hard to distance himself from the events...
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