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Neo-Eurasianism, Russian-Turkic Union
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Anton View Drop Down
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Neo-Eurasianism, Russian-Turkic Union
    Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 05:24
Originally posted by Sarmat12

This criticism is only about some of his works. However, the works like for example Hunnu and Ancient Turks as well as his articles about Khazarian archeology enjoy a very high reputation in the historical community.
Not necessarily. I remember Pletnyova in some TV shaw spoke about Gumulev's work on Khazars and especially archeology. She told he writes interestingly for those who are not familiar with the subject. He has no clue abotu archeology andso on. I, myself, remember mentioning blunders in populations ecology in his ethnogonesis book-- he was operating with terms he had no understanding about. Artamonov wasn't among his supporters either -- but this was probably about ethogenesis book.


Edited by Anton - 29-Feb-2008 at 05:27
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 06:42
Well. I'm talking not about his essay about the location of Samandar. But about his articles about the Khazar archeological findings. They are very valuable for the experts.

Edited by Sarmat12 - 29-Feb-2008 at 06:44
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Posts: 1108 		  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 07:36
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Did you read the parts from the book of Ukrainian historian?  What else do you want?
 
I want the truth. That's all. I will give you an example.

This is Grushevsky's opinion:

'Ukrianian aristocracy unorganizes and crashed was overwhelmed by the deluge of the Polish nobility in the Western Ukraine and forced to the bottom; and only by andjustment to their Polish masters and conversion to Catholicism could they achieve real equality'


And the fact is that only 19,1% of Government offices in Ukraine in the period 1569-1648 were possesed by Polish noblility, while 78,5% were possesed by Ruthanian (Ukrainian if you prefer) nobility. Henryk Litwin in the book alredy mentioned (Napływa szlachty polskiej na Ukrainę 1569-1648) counts name by name, year by year people who possesed Government offices in Ukraine in that period.

For example pisarz ziemski of Kijev Palatinate (name/ period of time when the guy possesed an office/ nationality, religion):

1. Bogufał Pawsza, 1566-1574, Ruthenian, Orthodox

2. Dymitr jelec, 1574-1598, Ruthenian, Orthodox

3. Iwan Łozka, 1599-1608, Ruthenian, Orthodox

4. Wasyl Woronicz, 1608-1613, Ruthenian, Orthodox

5. Fedor Proskura-Suszczański, 1615-1647, Ruthenian, Orthodox


Another example. Horodniczy of Kijev Palatinate (name/ period of time when the guy possesed an office/ nationality, religion):

1. Michał Dewoczka, 1567-1570, Ruthenian, Orthodox

2. Jerzy Podbielski, 1571-1575, Polish, Catholic

3. Semen Synhur, 1583-[unknown], Ruthenian, [unknown]

4. Bohusz Hulkiewicz-Hlebowski, [unknown]-1598, Ruthenian, Orthodox

5. Mikołaj Hulewicz-Dolski, 1595-1606, Ruthenian, Orthodox

6. Stanisław Wogura, 1607-1633, Ruthenian, Orthodox

7. Semen Wigura, 1640-1673, Ruthenian, Orthodox


Another example. Kasztelan of Kijev (and simultaneously, senators of Poland):

1. Paweł Sapieha, 1566-1580, Lithuanian, Orthodox

2. Michał Wiśniowiecki, 1581-1584, Ruthenian, Orthodox

3. Iwan Czaplic-Szpanowski, 1585-1607, Ruthenian, Arianism

4. Jerzy Wiśniowiecki, 1609-1618, Ruthenian, Catholic

5. Adan Sanguszko, 1618-1621, Ruthenian, Catholic

6. Hawryło Hojski, 1621-1632, Ruthenian, Orthodox

7. Roman Hojski, 1632-1635, Ruthenian, Orthodox

8. Aleksander Piasoczyński, 1635-1646, Ruthenian, Catholic

9. Adam Kisiel, 1646-1648, Ruthenian, Orthodox


Do you want more examples?


So? Where do you have this neccesity of conversion? Who was oppressed? Ruthenian nobility? Orthodox nobility? The one who claims that Ruthenians and Orthodoxs were oppressed only because they were Ruthenians and Orthodoxs, doesn't know basic facts.

There were peasents (it doesn't matter if they were Polish or any other, or Catholic or any other) who were oppressed in PLC (like in the whole Europe), but not nobles. In fact, Polish peasents were more oppressed than Ukrainian one (economic encumbrances of peasenst in central Poland were higher than in eastern Ukraine).

There were also Cossacks/warriors who aspired to be the nobility, while most of them were degradated to peasents in 1638.



Edited by ataman - 29-Feb-2008 at 08:05
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 08:23

I don't have any reasons to believe your book. Simply because it is written by a Polish author. He clearly wants to represent PLC in a very positive light. I don't even want to comment on the opinion that there were no difference in the treatment Orthodox and Catholic residents of PLC. It's simply false.

I'm sure that the voice of the opressed is always more valid than the voice of the oppressors. And please do not say the Grushevsky didn't know the basic facts. He did know enough basic and other facts to come to his conclusions.
 
Unfortunately, I'm afraid that you can't convince me, sorry. Just imagine, for example, the situation when I'm trying to persuade you that the third partition of Poland was a blessing and the Russian rule there was  even a bigger blessings. And you know, I can even give you the books, and cite the pages. They exist and even modern ones. I'm just reasonable enough to not believe that BS.
 
I can give more books and citations to support my opinion. There are many. I just thought Grushevsky is enough to show how Ukrainian and Belorussian view this problem. But, you reject this. Perhaps you think that all their historical science is a falsification. You can believe whatever you want. But I have other views.
 
Thank you


Edited by Sarmat12 - 29-Feb-2008 at 08:30
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Posts: 1138 		  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 08:43
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Originally posted by Roberts


Well maybe I didn't wrote clear. What i mean is that Livonian branch of Teutonic knights didn't have any dealings with the Horde, because the neighboring Russian principalities - Novgorod, Pskov, Polotsk weren't part of Horde's Russian vassal states.
 
I wonder where do you get such a distorted information. I assume you have an idea about Alexander Nevsky who was also a prince of Novgorod? He was paying tribute regularly to the Horde. Tatar baskaks i.e. tax collectors collected tribute in Novgorod and Pskov which once even let to the mutinity. In any case, those lands did have tributary relations with the Golden Horde and were considered its vassals.

Did Novgorod continued to pay taxes to Mongols after the death of Nevsky?
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Posts: 1144 		  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 17:43
Originally posted by Anton

Yes, you mean "passionarnost' " theory. It is  interesting indeed.
 
Yes, that's the word I lacked. I've read it in secondary school so I don't remember well but it was a good book.
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Posts: 1108 		  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 17:53
Originally posted by Sarmat12

I don't have any reasons to believe your book. Simply because it is written by a Polish author.
 
You don't need to believe my Polish books. Check your books and tell me who was:
1.  pisarz ziemski of Kijev Palatinate before Khmielnicki uprising
2.  Horodniczy of Kijev Palatinate before Khmielnicki uprising
3.  Kasztelan of Kijev before Khmielnicki uprising
 
Later, you can check who possessed another offices in Ukraine before Khmielnicki uprising.
After that, we can continue this discussion.
 
thank you
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 19:00
Maybe turkic union but absolutely not Turkish union.
 
Hell, we have not even one common point with russia, why should we join it? 
 
If this idea is real, It is funny.  If It is joke, It is not funny. Big%20smile
 
 
 
 
 
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Posts: 1144 		  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 19:30

In my opinion if Turkey doesn't join EU within nex 20 days, Russian-Turkish cooperation would be possible although I doubt there would be any union. Besides Russia supports Armenia which is in bad realtions with Turkey.

Russia is already in union with some Turkic countries - Содружество Независимых Государств.
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Posts: 1144 		  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 19:34
Well, Sarmat doesn't understand position of nobles in PLC so discussion is pointless. Wonder why Polish nobles choose for a king Ruthenian noble if they called Ruthenians "cattle". This is an interesting theory that in PLC also nobles were persecuted if they were not Polish.
Sarmat, nationalism was born at the end of XVIIIth century not in XVIth.
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Posts: 1138 		  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 19:34
Originally posted by Majkes

In my opinion if Turkey doesn't join EU within nex 20 days, Russian-Turkish cooperation would be possible although I doubt there would be any union. Besides Russia supports Armenia which is in bad realtions with Turkey.

Russia is already in union with some Turkic countries - Содружество Независимых Государств.


We need to hurry then. Must not allow Russians cooperate with Turks LOL


Edited by Roberts - 29-Feb-2008 at 19:35
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 19:44
LOL
Majkes, problem is not only armenia. Infact, Armenia is most easy problem between russia and turkey. If russia take azerbeyjan back, She will quickly sell ROA.
 
 
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 21:30
Originally posted by Majkes

Well, Sarmat doesn't understand position of nobles in PLC so discussion is pointless. Wonder why Polish nobles choose for a king Ruthenian noble if they called Ruthenians "cattle". This is an interesting theory that in PLC also nobles were persecuted if they were not Polish.
Sarmat, nationalism was born at the end of XVIIIth century not in XVIth.
 
Did you understand the quotes from the Ukrainian history book which translated for you?
 
Why do you point me at the "Ruthenian noble" who was a Catholic and spoke Polish most of his life?
 
There was a Polish guy Rokossovsky who spoke Russian better than Polish and was made by Moscow Poland Minister of Defence of Poland. I am aware of the nice feelings which Poles had towards him.
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Posts: 1144 		  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 21:35
Turkey should be at last informed about their current situation concerning EU membership and when they become meber because if they will be pushed outside EU like now they may find other allies and Russia first comes to my mind.
I know Azebeyjan is more precious because of oil but what are the other real problems between Russia and Turkey except history?
 
There is also slight possibility that first Turkey and then Russia will become EU members. That would be interesting. Do You think it is possible?
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Posts: 1144 		  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 21:58
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Originally posted by Majkes

Well, Sarmat doesn't understand position of nobles in PLC so discussion is pointless. Wonder why Polish nobles choose for a king Ruthenian noble if they called Ruthenians "cattle". This is an interesting theory that in PLC also nobles were persecuted if they were not Polish.
Sarmat, nationalism was born at the end of XVIIIth century not in XVIth.
 
Did you understand the quotes from the Ukrainian history book which translated for you?
 
Why do you point me at the "Ruthenian noble" who was a Catholic and spoke Polish most of his life?
 
There was a Polish guy Rokossovsky who spoke Russian better than Polish and was made by Moscow Poland Minister of Defence of Poland. I am aware of the nice feelings which Poles had towards him.
 
But notice a small diffrence. Rokossovsky was forced by Stalin and Wisniowiecki was chosen by Polish nobles. It's not normal that people choose for their king a person whose familly was Orthodox not more than 60 years before. You claim they promoted from cattle to royal highness in 60 yearsLOL. Do You claim that Ruthenians nobles were forced to change religion? Were Ruthenians forced to learn Polish?
 
 
We saw in what situation Ukrainian nation was put by the Polish nobility. It brought to the Ukrainian people masses enslavery and economic ruin.
 
How Polish nobility put up this situation if it was minority on Ukraine He doesn't explain. What about Polish peasants in similar situation?
 
It brought the towns to the decline and blocked the access of Ukrainian middle class to the  business and trade.
 
LOLNobles blocked everone and wanted to get rid any competition. Don't see any diffrence between Polish or Ukrainian part of PLC. I don't know why this guy calls Ruthenian nobility Polish all the time!
 
Ukrianian nobility was the only strata which was allowed to vote and influence political life but even this right was taken away by the polish nobles and made their (Ukrainian nobles) political ifluence null. 
 
Yes, how? Were they taken away their civil rights, forbidden to vote?
 
Ukrianian aristocracy unorganizes and crashed was overwhelmed by the deluge of the Polish nobility in the Western Ukraine and forced to the bottom; and only by andjustment to their Polish masters and conversion to Catholicism could they achieve real equality.
 
Another total crap from Your "scientist". I would like to hear some facts. How was Ruthenian nobles forced to the bottom? I see the guy hatred toward Polish and PLC but his historical competence is close to zero. 
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 22:32
This guy is not "mine." He is a famous Ukrainian historian. I think they
even open a monument dedicated to him in Poland recently.
 
He explains all the details in his book. Very detailed. I just gave you the excerpts to show you the general idea. I don't have the time to translate everything there for you right now.
 
And also if we want to discuss the situation of Ruthenians in PLC let's open a new thread. We already went too far off topic with that discussion.
 
Thank you.
 
Also you didn't understand my comparacent with Rokossovsky. I was saying that Ruthenians treated Michal Korybut Wisniowecki the same as Poles regarded Rokossovsky. I.e. as a foreign ruler. He was a kin for Poles, but an Alien for Ruthenians. Hope you understand now. You BTW should now very well that his farthter Jerema, although born Ruthenian Orthodox, later converted to Catholicism and was famous as a butcher of common Ukrainian people. He was definetely a Polish hero, but a tyrant for Orthodox Ruthenians.
 
 
 


Edited by Sarmat12 - 29-Feb-2008 at 22:43
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Posts: 117 		  Quote kafkas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 22:38
There's a conflict now within Turkic peoples about whether to achieve political/economic/cultural unity through Russia, or to draw a clear line between themselves and the Russian Federation.

 Great strides have already been made such as switching from the Cyrillic script to the Turkish-Latin one, and making native languages requirements in schools. Here is some recent news:

A decision was made to establish Parliamentary Assembly of the Turkic-speaking countries. "The representatives of Azerbaijan, Turkey, Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan signed a protocol of intentions to establish a Parliamentary Assembly of the Turkic-speaking countries," Azerbaijani MP Rafail Jabrailov, who attended the first meeting of the Inter-Parliamentary Council of Turkic-speaking countries, reported to Trend News by telephone from Antalya on 22 February.

The meeting focused on the Board of the Council, its composition, conditions of membership and other organizational issues. The goal in establishing the Council, which will bring the parliaments of the Turkic-speaking countries together, is to create a central mechanism amongst them as Parliamentary Union, strengthen the relations, coordinate political views, exchange experience, as well as carrying out of the joint projects.

Jabrailov said that the agreement on establishment of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Turkic-speaking countries will be signed at the meeting of the Parliament chairmen in May.

The protocol on intentions was signed by the vice-speakers of the four states. A suggestion was made that the Secretariat of the Assembly should be located in Azerbaijan, but yet, it will be located in Turkey. Discussions are continuing on this issue.

"The chairmanship to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Turkic-speaking countries will be levied on turn basis, for a year. The meeting of the organization will be held in the chairing country. The working language of the Assembly will be the official language of the chairing country," he MP added.

According to him, the number of representatives to the Assembly will be determined depending on the urgency of the discussed issue.

Jabrailov said that the reasons for absence of the representatives of Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan at the meeting are unclear. However, the protocol on intentions says that other Turkic-speaking countries may join the establishment of the Parliamentary Assembly after signing the protocol.

"I highly assess the agreement on establishment of the Parliamentary Assembly. It is important from the point of view of acting from a unified position of the Turkic-speaking countries," Jabrailov said.

Azerbaijan was represented at the meeting by the delegation headed by the Vice Speaker of Azerbaijan Parliament, Ziyafet Askerov. The delegation also included MPs Rafail Jabrailov, Ahmed Veliyev, Seyyad Aleskerov.
---------------------------------------------------

 Turkey has been investing a lot of money in not only the independent Turkic Republics but in Russia as well. As for the EU, if Russia really wanted to she could enter the EU within a couple of years probably, but it seems Russian nationalists are opposed to it. During a visit to Turkey, Putin told Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan "If you join the European Union we won't be able to talk this much anymore".

A common Turkic market is currently a main goal in the foreign policies of not only Turkic governments, but businesses and corporations as well. I'm sure it will pick up speed once the Soviet regimes in Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan finally lose their grips on the people.
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 00:51
Originally posted by Majkes

 
There is also slight possibility that first Turkey and then Russia will become EU members. That would be interesting. Do You think it is possible?
 
I don't think Russia would be member of EU soon. Just opininons of EU and Russia on many things are different. And those differences are principal. For instance for Russian "external" shining is much more important than a wealth of every particular citizen, whereas in EU it is totally different.
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Posts: 1144 		  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 07:09
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Majkes

 
There is also slight possibility that first Turkey and then Russia will become EU members. That would be interesting. Do You think it is possible?
 
I don't think Russia would be member of EU soon. Just opininons of EU and Russia on many things are different. And those differences are principal. For instance for Russian "external" shining is much more important than a wealth of every particular citizen, whereas in EU it is totally different.
 
I know that now there are too big differencies and in the near future nothing changes but for 50 years who knows what can happen. Russia can be tottaly diffrent country and EU can change as well. I expect Russia to become EU member sooner or later, partially because of external dangers. If EU and Russia would like to have a chance for a big place in international relations in the future they will have to unite cause US and China will be getting stronger.
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Posts: 1144 		  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 07:15
Originally posted by Sarmat12

This guy is not "mine." He is a famous Ukrainian historian. I think they
even open a monument dedicated to him in Poland recently.
 
He explains all the details in his book. Very detailed. I just gave you the excerpts to show you the general idea. I don't have the time to translate everything there for you right now.
 
And also if we want to discuss the situation of Ruthenians in PLC let's open a new thread. We already went too far off topic with that discussion.
 
Thank you.
 
Also you didn't understand my comparacent with Rokossovsky. I was saying that Ruthenians treated Michal Korybut Wisniowecki the same as Poles regarded Rokossovsky. I.e. as a foreign ruler. He was a kin for Poles, but an Alien for Ruthenians. Hope you understand now. You BTW should now very well that his farthter Jerema, although born Ruthenian Orthodox, later converted to Catholicism and was famous as a butcher of common Ukrainian people. He was definetely a Polish hero, but a tyrant for Orthodox Ruthenians.
 
 
 
Yes lets cut this disscussion because we stole this thread. To sum up I can agree peasants and Cossacks were discriminated and brutally treated in PLC but I don't agree with nobles being brutally polonized because it's not true. Orthodox church was discriminated comparing to Prothestants and Catholics but not brutaly persecuted. You should understand that Ruthenian or Lithuanian noble felt bigger brotherhood with Polish nobles than with Ruthenians or Lithuanians peasants.
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