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The bad side of Christianity
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Posts: 1800 		  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The bad side of Christianity
    Posted: 28-Sep-2007 at 16:23
Originally posted by Adalwolf

How do you know? They were just as sure what they were doing was right as you are, Byzantine.
 
I have no doubt that many of them believed what they were doing was right.  However, like I said before, the crusades and the actions of those who went on them does not match up with the official source of the Christian faith: the New Testament.  What else are we to measure their actions against?  It is not a religion where everything is made up as one goes along and everyone is allowed to do what they want to do.
 
Does what I think is right and what I am advocating match up with what Christ says in the New Testament?
 
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2007 at 18:47
I don't see the bad side of Christianity or the bad side of Islam or the bad side of atheism or the bad side Hinduism or whatever as being very different though they may have manifested themselves at different times in different places.
 
We might do better with simply a topic on the bad side of humanity.
 
Or possibly its good side.


Edited by gcle2003 - 28-Sep-2007 at 18:48
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There are so many hypocrits who claim to be Christians. Don't even let me start all the religious factions claiming that they are Christians. Will you say that I am Muslim if I don't follow the path of Allah? Of course not. So whay blame the evilness of Christians by looking at crimes done by non-Christians? Gott, I want to slap you silly for still thinking about it this way...


Hi, Pekau,



I agree with you that most people shouldn't be called a Christians. A smart ass once said that Jesus was the last of the Christians.

At the same time, this is an unrealistic argument for us to make. Regardless if the crusaders were true Christians or not, they killed in the name of Christ. So where the many persecutions of Jewish people done in Christ's name.

Christianity lacks in the Gospels a doctrine for warfare, but St. Augustine created one that has been used ever since. It is the the concept of the "Just War." This was a radical departure from Christ, but it has been a doctrine in the Western Church for about
1400 years. It may not be in the New Testament, but this doctrine is treated almost as if it were the gospel.

Whether we like it or not, Christianity as the community of people claiming to follow Jesus has been a violent group, either within themselves or with others.

All religions that become state religions will most likely endorse violence and war (I know of at least one case when this didn't happen).

Maybe we should then accept the bad things that other have been done in the names of other religion, and instead of picking out what is bad from each religion, we should look for what is good and focus on those who actually live the true spirit of their faith, don't you agree?
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Posts: 1423 		  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2007 at 19:15
I saw that there is a long thread on the bad sad of Islam. I think that it is only fair to have a thread on the bad side of Christianity.


First, you should define what is Christianism. You may refer to the doctrines (because is not only one Christian doctrine) or to the deeds of the (people called) Christians.


If you refer to the doctrine, I think a religion should not be judged for its moral and ethical precepts because religion should not be a social system but the aspiration for the knowledge of a metaphisical truth.


There is also the historical evidence that Christianity went through a reformation in the fifteenth century. Part of this movement had at its core the removal of violent and militant strains of Christianity in order to bring it back to its Apostolic roots.


The mistake of Reformation consists in that it tried to reconstitute what it considered was the Apostolic Christianism on the ground of New Testament writings. This seems rather a dramaturgic act than a religion.



I would also question the sincerity of their salvation acceptance, if there are no obvious signs of redemption and sanctification in their lives.


The redemption and sanctification is a concrete thing. There is no need of aparent signs.




Why is it bad for a Christian to believe in the exclusivity of his means of salvation? It doesn't follow, as a result of his belief in exclusitivty, that he should then beat others over the head with it or use it as a justification for killing nonbelievers. On the contrary, he should still follow the instructions of Christ and the examples of Paul and the Apostles in his efforts to convert nonbelievers.


This battle, who convert who is a manifestation of the fact that at most people the religion is in the head, not in the heart as a mystical experience.


Well, Christians wiped off populations in 3 continents: Australia, North America, South America.


Is true that much (most?) of the populations in these continents have been exterminated but also I think these territories were low peopled.

Edited by Menumorut - 28-Sep-2007 at 19:16
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2007 at 23:18
Originally posted by hugoestr

Hi, Pekau, I agree with you that most people shouldn't be called a Christians. A smart ass once said that Jesus was the last of the Christians.
 
There is some truth in that statement. Even the "true" Christians often find themselves difficult to walk in the path of Christ. Jesus taught that temptation is not a sin, but to fall for temptation is to sin. However, Jesus was merely a man like every one of us. God sent Jesus in human flesh. He felt pain, love, betrayal, suffering, pleasure, and temptation. Jesus, effectively, is not special  someone that magically change the world. Jesus was, like everyone else, a common man. In fact, the story tells us that Jesus was born in low class society.
 
What makes Jesus so profound is not because he is the "Son of God", but because he was able to live a sinless life and resist all temptation to the bitter end. Because he was born by virgin mother, he does not have the sin of all humanity's forefather, Adam. Since his father is sinless God himself, he bore no sin in birth.
 
Remember God said that punishment of sin is death. Jesus allowed himself to die on the cross... but if he lived in sinless life... he should not have died. God is of love and justice. His death despite his innocence is enough  to relinquish Satan's power over humanity if they believed in Christ. Jesus was, after all, part of humanity. Jesus rose to life because he should not have died. But those that reject resurrection of Christ rejects that sinless man died and never rose again. So what are they saying? Are they saying that Jesus lived in sinful life? Are they saying that Almighty God is of injustice? This is the sole reason why those that do not believe in resurrection of Christ cannot be saved. That is how I believe it.
 
So technically, it is just possible for one to live in sinless life. But those that do not believe in Christ, regardless of how they lived, have sin in their life because Adam's sin still binds people, since Adam was the first and origin of humanity.
 
You don't need to go to Church to be saved. You don't need to donate to be saved. You don't have to read Bible everyday. What saves people to heaven is to recognize that Satan, Lord of Death, broke the rule by killing a man who lived in sinless life... hence it justifies the fact that Adam's sin passed to you is no longer valid. Therefore, Satan no longer has the right to lay sin in your life... as long as you continue to live in sinless life. Living in sinless life is to follow Jesus' instructions and God's. But even if one somehow sinned, they can ask God for forgiveness and cleanse the sin. This is possible because it was God's choice to send Jesus to the mortal world. He is of mercy and justice. While he must enforce justice and order, he can show mercy if it does not break the rules.
 
Some Christians say that Friday the 13th is a bad and sad day because Jesus died. I beg to differ. I love Friday the 13th. If Jesus didn't die, then we would all be done for. 
 
Originally posted by hugoestr

At the same time, this is an unrealistic argument for us to make. Regardless if the crusaders were true Christians or not, they killed in the name of Christ. So where the many persecutions of Jewish people done in Christ's name.
 
What? I thought I made this clear. Why would be disregard that fact that crusadors are true Chistrian or not? They weren't. Jesus did not say slay bunch of innocent people to spread his name. You cannot spread his Gospel if they are dead. And so what if they killed in the name of Christ. I could walk to you with a sniper rifle and kill you in the name of John F. Kennedy. Will the court accuse Kennedy for the crime? Absolutely not. They will accuse me because I committed the crime. See where I am getting at? Just because they killed in Christ's name doesn't make Christ evil. It just means the crusadors are brainwashed or liars.  It so happens that it was a bit of both.
[/QUOTE]
 
Originally posted by hugoestr


Christianity lacks in the Gospels a doctrine for warfare, but St. Augustine created one that has been used ever since. It is the the concept of the "Just War." This was a radical departure from Christ, but it has been a doctrine in the Western Church for about
1400 years. It may not be in the New Testament, but this doctrine is treated almost as if it were the gospel.
who actually live the true spirit of their faith, don't you agree?
 
So you should condemn the Catholic and Orthodox Church. If this is how you believe, it's fine. They were the hyprocrites, and they need to pay the price. But why are you dragging Christianity into this? Jesus didn't say he's going to publish New Testament. He didn't say that his Gospel should be used for pretext of war. Jesus did not set up the Western Church doctrine and you kindly pointed out that it was Church that treat the gospel as if it was the gospel, not Christ or his ideal of Christianity. Thank you for making my point, it was sinful men who too advantage of divine Christ and they will get what they deserve, for God is just. But Christianity has nothing to do with this. Church has many definitions. Building to worship and religious organization is one, which is appropriate for Church. Jesus' definition of Church is the gathering of Christians. Well, the hypocrites are not Christians, so it doesn't apply right?
 
If I have to repeat this again, I will slap people silly. Typing hurts my fingers...
 
 
     
   
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Well there doesn't really seem to be anything new in this thread, does there? It has all been thoroughly discussed before. Consequently, I will limit myself to a few statements.
 
First, I think we need to distinguish between Christians and those to whom the Didache attributes the term Christemporoi, or "Christmongers." The Christmonger is an individual who seeks personal gain, recognition, or political goals through a professed allegiance to Christ. The Christian seeks to serve Christ for the sake of service alone.
 
Secondly, I think we need to draw a further distinction between individuals/groups and their ideologies across the board. We can compare two ideologies, or we can compare two individuals/groups; we cannot, however, seek to compare an individual/group and an ideology. For example, I can compare a Christian and a Muslim, or I can compare Christianity and Islam; I cannot, if I seek a fruitful comparison, compare an individual Christian to Islam, or an individual Muslim to Christianity.
 
Thirdly, I do think that it is necessary, especially in light of the modern relativistic trend, to compare different ideologies. I think that it is less productive to compare two individuals--at least if we seek, as we so often do, to make a value judgment of the ideologies these individuals ostensibly hold.
 
Finally, I do not think there is a bad side to authentic Christianity, because it is the calling of every individual to seek to follow the teachings of Christ as expressed through the universal testament of the Church. I do think that there is a bad side to individual's calling themselves Christians (Christmongers and Christians alike), precisely because the imperfection of man is born out repeatedly in the universal testament of the Church. The Church carries the heavenly treasures of revelation in the earthly vessels that are her members.
 
I am willing to spar on these points with anyone who cares to dispute them. I am unwilling to engage in the entirely fruitless--and oft repeated--finger pointing.
 
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Posts: 2091 		  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2007 at 23:27
Originally posted by pekau

So you should condemn the Catholic and Orthodox Church. If this is how you believe, it's fine. They were the hyprocrites, and they need to pay the price. But why are you dragging Christianity into this? Jesus didn't say he's going to publish New Testament. He didn't say that his Gospel should be used for pretext of war. Jesus did not set up the Western Church doctrine and you kindly pointed out that it was Church that treat the gospel as if it was the gospel, not Christ or his ideal of Christianity.
 
The Orthodox Church has always held that war is inherently sinful. Check the canons dealing with soldiers returning from war if you like; they all require penance. As for the Gospel, you are quite correct: Jesus did not say that he was going to publish the New Testament. The New Testament was revealed and composed in the universal Church, and its canon was set--and, if you like, published--by her.
 
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Posts: 3987 		  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2007 at 02:30
Hi, Pekau,

Let me make two quick points:

First, people should take responsibility for the atrocities committed in the past in the group that they belong to. My killing in Kennedy's name makes no sense because I don't identify myself or other people recognize me as a John F. Kennedy; they do recognize me as a Christian though.

Second, my point is that many of us are only too happy to judge other religions and focus on their negative part. When judging other religions, we are only too eager to equate the behavior of the believers with that the religion.

We should follow the suggestion of gcle and focus on the good side of all religions. It would be the way we would like people to judge our religion.
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2007 at 02:47
Originally posted by Menumorut

Well, Christians wiped off populations in 3 continents: Australia, North America, South America.

Is true that much (most?) of the populations in these continents have been exterminated but also I think these territories were low peopled.

Not for South America I think, but for Australia it is certainly true.
Originally posted by Ako

The Christmonger is an individual who seeks personal gain, recognition, or political goals through a professed allegiance to Christ.

Ah! Barrack Obama!
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^
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2007 at 04:23
Originally posted by hugoestr

Second, my point is that many of us are only too happy to judge other religions and focus on their negative part. When judging other religions, we are only too eager to equate the behavior of the believers with that the religion.

We should follow the suggestion of gcle and focus on the good side of all religions. It would be the way we would like people to judge our religion.
 
I am confused. Your last two last paragraphs completely is opposite of the reason why you opened this forum... Allow me to quote your first post in the forum:
 
 
Originally posted by hugoestr

I saw that there is a long thread on the bad side of Islam. I think that it is only fair to have a thread on the bad side of Christianity.

Where can we start? Maybe on how Christians abandoned the teachings of Jesus, who demanded nonviolence at the face of violence, and how it became a warmongering religion since the 3rd century on.

How about the role that it played on colonialism?

Or how about the crusades? Maybe we should have a discussion on the religious toleration that has been a feature of Christianity for most of its history... oh, wait, it hasn't.

Let's explore the dark side of Christianity, and I expect the participation of Christians especially. After all, we don't want to repeat the horrible behaviors of the past... or the present in the right places.

spelling edit.


Edited by pekau - 29-Sep-2007 at 04:23
     
   
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2007 at 14:22
 
Originally posted by pekau

Originally posted by hugoestr

Hi, Pekau, I agree with you that most people shouldn't be called a Christians. A smart ass once said that Jesus was the last of the Christians.
 
There is some truth in that statement. Even the "true" Christians often find themselves difficult to walk in the path of Christ. Jesus taught that temptation is not a sin, but to fall for temptation is to sin. However, Jesus was merely a man like every one of us. God sent Jesus in human flesh. He felt pain, love, betrayal, suffering, pleasure, and temptation. Jesus, effectively, is not special  someone that magically change the world. Jesus was, like everyone else, a common man. In fact, the story tells us that Jesus was born in low class society.
More like educated middle class really (respectable craftsman, good family, able to go up to Jerusalem, and so on). Not a labourer. Not a peasant. Certainly not a slave.
 
Jesus wasn't born in a manger because his parents couldn't afford a hotel room, but because there was no room at the inn.
Still it's just a detail.


Edited by gcle2003 - 29-Sep-2007 at 14:26
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Posts: 2979 		  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2007 at 21:28
i found this video from a program called wife swap or something and this woman just came from the other family.
 
pretty extreme i think.
 
Add%20Video%20to%20QuickList
 
and what she mean by "dark sided"   non-believers or its a new term?
 
 
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Originally posted by Sparten

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The stupidist man to ever seek the presidency of the US.


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Pekau,

My first post was ironic. I started it because I was annoyed at having yet another thread on why Islam is terrible.

This is an idea that is especially popular among warmongering Christian in the U.S. I don't know about other places. And they tend to blend the religion with the practitioners in their desire to cast Islam as a wicked religion.

Yet when it is Christianity that is put on the defensive, many Christians will explain that one cannot judge Christianity by the action of its followers. Furthermore, if one commit heinous acts, then by definition they are not Christian.

I wished I had express myself the way gcle did, and that is why I praised his contribution. I it my fault that I started this thread with an ironic lash: I was angered at the sight of intolerance.

Edited by hugoestr - 30-Sep-2007 at 02:23
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Posts: 0 		  Quote Comet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 03:17
Originally posted by hugoestr

This is an idea that is especially popular among warmongering Christian in the U.S. I don't know about other places. And they tend to blend the religion with the practitioners in their desire to cast Islam as a wicked religion.

Yet when it is Christianity that is put on the defensive, many Christians will explain that one cannot judge Christianity by the action of its followers. Furthermore, if one commit heinous acts, then by definition they are not Christian.



I feel bad for those who actually follow Islam the way it was intended to by Allah. I'd like to say that 85 to 90% (my estimate) of Islamic practitioners do it peacefully. However, the 10-15% who are apart of Islamic fundamentalism, ruin it for those who do practice peacefully. It's funny...a lot of what the American public knows of Islam comes from the media...which shows how those 10-15% follow Islam.

BTW, Christians really have no room to talk. The religion's history is full of despicable acts of violence and torture.
History is never clear cut...there are hardly any absolutes
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 03:35
Originally posted by Comet

Originally posted by hugoestr

This is an idea that is especially popular among warmongering Christian in the U.S. I don't know about other places. And they tend to blend the religion with the practitioners in their desire to cast Islam as a wicked religion.

Yet when it is Christianity that is put on the defensive, many Christians will explain that one cannot judge Christianity by the action of its followers. Furthermore, if one commit heinous acts, then by definition they are not Christian.



I feel bad for those who actually follow Islam the way it was intended to by Allah. I'd like to say that 85 to 90% (my estimate) of Islamic practitioners do it peacefully. However, the 10-15% who are apart of Islamic fundamentalism, ruin it for those who do practice peacefully. It's funny...a lot of what the American public knows of Islam comes from the media...which shows how those 10-15% follow Islam.

BTW, Christians really have no room to talk. The religion's history is full of despicable acts of violence and torture.
 
Mein Gott, I will not type same thing again. Read the previous posts before making comments...Confused
     
   
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Posts: 5711 		  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 03:39
Originally posted by azimuth

i found this video from a program called wife swap or something and this woman just came from the other family.
 
pretty extreme i think.
 
Add%20Video%20to%20QuickList
 
and what she mean by "dark sided"   non-believers or its a new term?
 
 


Dark side? Sounds like something from Star Wars - which was probably her inspiration for it...

Actually I think this is just a convenient term she invented, so she can literally see the world in black and white. You're either with me and agree with my beliefs (which means you are good), or you believe something different (so you are bad and a part of the "dark side").

I watched the video. What an incredibly selfish and egotistical lady, inflicting so much grief on her family whilst she pompously arrogates herself the title of "religious warrior". I really, really, really feel sorry for her poor children. That kind of angry zeal can have an unbalancing effect on youngsters.
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Posts: 0 		  Quote Comet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 06:39
Originally posted by pekau

Originally posted by Comet

Originally posted by hugoestr

This is an idea that is especially popular among warmongering Christian in the U.S. I don't know about other places. And they tend to blend the religion with the practitioners in their desire to cast Islam as a wicked religion.

Yet when it is Christianity that is put on the defensive, many Christians will explain that one cannot judge Christianity by the action of its followers. Furthermore, if one commit heinous acts, then by definition they are not Christian.



I feel bad for those who actually follow Islam the way it was intended to by Allah. I'd like to say that 85 to 90% (my estimate) of Islamic practitioners do it peacefully. However, the 10-15% who are apart of Islamic fundamentalism, ruin it for those who do practice peacefully. It's funny...a lot of what the American public knows of Islam comes from the media...which shows how those 10-15% follow Islam.

BTW, Christians really have no room to talk. The religion's history is full of despicable acts of violence and torture.
 
Mein Gott, I will not type same thing again. Read the previous posts before making comments...Confused


I actually did read...and I agree with both of you. Just given a bit more info on the topic. Sorry to come off so strong and I should have worded my last part better. I'm glad I know someone else who speaks German Wink
History is never clear cut...there are hardly any absolutes
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2007 at 06:45

Though German is one of the languages I really want to learn, I am afraid I am not even close to being fluent. It's hard to master lots of Western language for oriental like me. When I have the luxery, I will definitely try to be fluent in German, French, and Mandrian.

The only phrasing I can use frequently in German is "Mein Gott in himmel". Don't ask why...
     
   
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