I would say that the difference is the fact that the the American economy is structurally favorable to capitalism and growth, unlike much of Europe where business chastised with high taxes and powerful unions.
And cavalry4ever, what flaws are you talking about?
Currently, Social Security reform is a hot topic so that America will not be burdened with exorbitant taxes in the future. Is that not long term planning?
Europe on the other hand merely raises its taxes to very high levels. Is that not a short term solution with negative long-term consequences.
Thanks for posting the graph too.
The U.S. had a high level of taxation in the 1950s and 1960s, much higher than what people would accept in the U.S. today. Unions were probably at one of its strongest points during this period. According to your post, the U.S. businesses were "chastised with high taxes and powerful unions." This must have meant that the U.S. economy was, at the time, "unfavorable to capitalism and growth."
Yet, one of the biggest economic growths in the U.S. economy happened at this time. There seems to be a contradiction with your economic theory prediction and fact. But it could be that I don't understand. If you would be so kind to explain it to me, I would be grateful.
As you are explain it to me, also explain it to the millions of working families that don't have health insurance. Explain it to former Enron employees who lost their private retirement accounts. Explain it to the millions who have not seen a pay rise in the last four years.
Some people may say these are flaws. I like to see them as "opportunities." Don't you?
The US also had a low tax rate in the 1980's, which led to a boom after the semi-stagnant 1960's and 1970's. In the 1950's, most of the other economies in the world had been destroyed as well, so that has a big impact on it as well.
In America many people don't have health insurance,this is true, but we have decided that that is better than using tax dollars to provide it for those people and thus stifling the economy for everyone. Those things happen because America is not a welfare state, but because of that we have a very productive economy a smaller tax burden for everyone. I prefer the one that benefits the economy as a whole, if Europe wants to use their money for universal health care, go for it.
I could very easily say to you "tell that to all the Swedes who must give up 80% of their earnings".
America can easily endure with a segment of the population without health insurance, can Europe easily survive if they do not encourage economic growth?
- Correct: military domination over the whole world
- Correct: Political domination over the whole world
- Inocorrect/I] Economical supremacy. As I exhibited in another thread, the US economy is fragile, build on wrong premises, experiences huge difficulties and is on the verge of constant collapse, because of the overblown dollar, social instability and humangous social disrepancies and structural disrepancies as well.
- Completely incorrect: A stable society. The masses of unemployed, MacJob-ers, underpaid in USA are increasing expontaneously every day. The switch to neo-lessaiz faire models that worked decently in the 80s and wonders in the early 90s, has run out of steam and the gap between those who have and those who have not is getting wider and wider every day. The lack of actual welfare and relief for the neo-poor the system creates every day, and the talks to eliminate even the miniscule leftovers from "the New Deal" that provide a safety net for a few people, show that things can only get worse. There is a point in the (near) future when US economy will collapse due to economic and social factors and the problems we'll all face due to that, shall be enormous.
- Completely incorrect: a working democracy (or republic, if you wish). USA is an aristocracy, as correctly pointed out and explained by Paul in the OP. Furthermore, USA is not big on human rights, is in many aspects a huge police state, is exporting fascism since the first post-WWII decade to the whole globe, is not in compliance with any international treaty, harbors, aids and protects terrorist states and renowned war criminals and terrorists etc. etc.
...Just to put things into perspective, mates
Completely incorrect: Everything you just said.
Why is Aristoteles incorrect? Please elaborate.
All he is saying is just baseless and paranoid Antiamericanism.
ALso I think one importnat factor has yet to be mentioned, cultural
power. The US wields immense cultural power. jeans, mp3s, movies,
food etc. Make sure to steep your criticism carefully if your wearing
a pair of Levis, listening to American music or perhaps even
communicating on an international forum in English
Na gut, lassen wir denn auf Deutsch reden.
Vielleicht hat Amerika einen grossen kulturellen EinfluB, aber ich
denke nicht das die amerikanische Kultur besser ist als andere Kulturen
(sofern man berhaupt sagen knnte, weder eine Kultur besser ist).
Was ist brigens passiert mit das deutsche Topik in den kein-Englischen Forum?
Isn't the concept of un-Americanism or holding the belief something or someone is un-American just about the most unpatriotic thing there is?
History shows that mono-ideology societies, societies where it's populous are unable or unwilling to criticise it, quickly become moribund, stagnate and die. The healthiest countries in the world are the most self critical. Self criticism is also the first step to self improvement.
Criticism is one thing, hatred is another. Nations have also only shown greatness and strength when the populace has been energized to work for the good of the state. Why do you think the artificially created states of Africa, Indonesia, etc. have had many of their internal troubles? There is no energizing loyalty to the state.
IIRC (and please, correct me if I am wrong) the domination of the English language in international affais precedes the USA - after all, English is the spoken language of England predominately... and they had an empire when you still were their colony.
Secondly, not only is USA not the strongest economical entity, but also EU IS indeed the #1 economy in the world (the way we measure economies: size)
Japan is not #2, where did you get that from?
More economics for those who simply can't get it (Ghenghis, for instance):
Economic growth does not equal development.
USA favors constant growth (and that's why you have higher growth than the EU average, although countries like Ireland - 4.5% - and Greece - 4.2% - have a much higher growth rate than USA) with ridiculisly high deficits, while Europe's model is based more on the control of macroeconomic factors like deficits (and elimination thereof) inflation (ditto) and in the social stability that provides a safe business environment. Europe has - as a result - higher unemployment, for instance, but unemployed in Germany, Netherlands and the Skandinavian countries are living far better than MacJobers in USA. Isn't that a treat?
Higher GDP does not equal higher standards of life (in all other defining factors USA lags desperately behind ALL European countries, as well as Canada, Australia and a few others and in some aspects - human rights and civil liberties for instance - it's closer to third world countries than the advanced ones)
USAs rapid development in the 50s and the 60s was a result of the increasing spending power of the lesser classes (mid, low-mid and lower). In the 70s, inflation, oil crisis, Vietnam, government instability and a couple other factors led to a relative stagnation. In the 80s, neo-classical models were introduced and indeed they worked... temporary. Nothing like a boom, of course, that came in Clinton's era, the best - economically wise - since the booming 60s. But that was temporary. Fact is all half-decent economists have proven that the neo-classical models cannot work for prolonged periods of time. They can produce a superficial sense of growth and development, but in the long run they fail because they strip the bulk of the society from their buying power - and that's what moves our little capitalistic world, the flow of money.
The bubble burst occured, the policies introduced were even more lessaiz faire (when in reality a new "new deal" was needed) and we see the results. Now the american economy is declining and the main reason is that the lesser classes do not get a half-decent share of the wealth produced (unlike the 50s and 60s), so they are unable to continue to climax their spendings.
Damn, if people could understand simple economics...
Don't accuse me of not getting economics because you have failed to convince me with your socialist propaganda. And again, you say all these things, but show no empirical evidence for it. If you had a few graphs and charts, I might start to take you seriously, but you keep on making statements that you want us to merely take your word for.
Isn't the concept of un-Americanism or holding the belief something or someone is un-American just about the most unpatriotic thing there is?
History shows that mono-ideology societies, societies where it's populous are unable or unwilling to criticise it, quickly become moribund, stagnate and die. The healthiest countries in the world are the most self critical. Self criticism is also the first step to self improvement.
Ill agree with you here, this is why I feel the US is socially behind, I look at a society with different ideologies over time and I see when it is more open and questioning, it performs better. The US is too much in fear factor mode right now, and is having a puritanical revival, the fall of the US will come from inside, not from outside
and as for that other fun post, the EU does not and should not be considered one unified economy, even with its silly new laws and meaningless "constitution", it is still several competing states, and none of them can match either the US or Japan.
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
Don't accuse me of not getting economics because you have failed to convince me with your socialist propaganda. And again, you say all these things, but show no empirical evidence for it. If you had a few graphs and charts, I might start to take you seriously, but you keep on making statements that you want us to merely take your word for.
In that other topic, where I once again tried (unsuccesfuly) to communicate a few simple realities to you, I took the time and effort to provide you with a step-by-step guide so you can find all the date you need for yourself and come to an educated conclusion.
You didn't even reply to this, as it was probably too much work for you, to actually dig into a dozen websites and google for a few hours.
Don't accuse me for not providing data, when I took you by the hand and show you how you can find data that you won't dismiss on the sole premise that they are "from sources like Noam Chomsky and other liberals" . Data that is there for everybody to see, if they know what to look for. The fact that you didn't is your failure, not mine.
and as for that other fun post, the EU does not and should not be considered one unified economy, even with its silly new laws and meaningless "constitution", it is still several competing states, and none of them can match either the US or Japan.
that other fun post? You silly twit, the economic field is precisely what is EU all about = We ARE a unified economy, that's the point of the eurozone, the common currency and the unified and/or common economic procedures and policies. Meaning, to adress your obvious difficulty with large words, EU is a single economy.
Whatever your mind is too naive, small and inadequate to comprehend with, you shouldn't categorize as "fun", but as "beyond your understanding". I know you ain't a genious, but refering to a poster - who took the time and effort to address you by your name - as "that other fun post", shows extreme arrogance and is downright offending. Seems savoir vivre is beyond your comprehension as well...
well we certainyl are touchy today, all this anger because I used the word fun? Well I did read you r post, and I am glad that you took the time to make it, but I wasnt in the mood for a long response YET, I was going to, I didnt just blow you off and im sorry if it looked like that, I was going to get back to you, but I dont think I will now with this HUGE overaction. BAsed on your entire judgement of me from one word I really dont think you know anything about me so either lighten up or ...well just lighten up.
Edited by Tobodai
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
I would say that the difference is the fact that the the American economy is structurally favorable to capitalism and growth, unlike much of Europe where business chastised with high taxes and powerful unions.
And cavalry4ever, what flaws are you talking about?
Currently, Social Security reform is a hot topic so that America will not be burdened with exorbitant taxes in the future. Is that not long term planning?
Europe on the other hand merely raises its taxes to very high levels. Is that not a short term solution with negative long-term consequences.
Thanks for posting the graph too.
The U.S. had a high level of taxation in the 1950s and 1960s, much higher than what people would accept in the U.S. today. Unions were probably at one of its strongest points during this period. According to your post, the U.S. businesses were "chastised with high taxes and powerful unions." This must have meant that the U.S. economy was, at the time, "unfavorable to capitalism and growth." Yet, one of the biggest economic growths in the U.S. economy happened at this time. There seems to be a contradiction with your economic theory prediction and fact. But it could be that I don't understand. If you would be so kind to explain it to me, I would be grateful. As you are explain it to me, also explain it to the millions of working families that don't have health insurance. Explain it to former Enron employees who lost their private retirement accounts. Explain it to the millions who have not seen a pay rise in the last four years. Some people may say these are flaws. I like to see them as "opportunities." Don't you?
The US also hada low tax rate in the 1980's, which led to a boom after the semi-stagnant 1960's and 1970's. In the 1950's, most of the other economies in the world had been destroyed as well, so that has a big impact on it as well.
In America many people don't have health insurance,this is true,but we have decided that that is better than using tax dollars to provide it for those people and thus stifling the economy for everyone. Those things happen because America is not a welfare state, but because of that we have a very productive economy a smaller tax burden for everyone. I prefer the one that benefits the economy as a whole, if Europe wants to use their money for universal health care, go for it.
I could very easily say to you "tell that to all the Swedes who must give up 80% of their earnings".
America can easily endure witha segment of the population without health insurance, can Europe easily survive if they do not encourage economic growth?
First, the 1960s were not stagnant. The economy slowed towards the end of the decade, with real economic problems starting with the oil crisis, at the beginning of the 1970s. Yes, at the beginning of the 1950s European nation had it hard; but they also had an economic boom by the 1960s. Many Europeans who lived during the 1960s remember them as good times. The 1970s were a hard time though.
But so were the 1980s. Yes, you had a great ride if you were member of the upper classes who owned stock, but most people did not enjoy a share of that wealth. I know of several people who were young at the time, and they tell stories of inflation, high interest rates, no or poor jobs, and constant economic strife. I had a professor who graduate with an engineering degree in the 1980s, and it took him about 11 months to get a job. In the mean time, he literally flipped burgers at Burger King.
The Reagan-Bush years also delivered, until W. Bush came along, the greatest Federal debt that the country had ever had. This is what happens when you cut taxes and increase spendingno, not in social program, but in the military to build sci-fi weapons.
But back to your original argument. According to you, since the 1980s the U.S. has been in the right track. There should be more wealth in the country today. However, the number of people living under the poverty line has increased. Actually, it has increased faster during the tax-cut happy years of the Bush administration. These are not mentally ill homeless people: these are people who work real jobs. But your argument is that they should have more money because of the tax cuts. Why arent they better off today?
In America many people don't have health insurance,this is true,but we have decided that that is better than using tax dollars to provide it for those people and thus stifling the economy for everyone. Those things happen because America is not a welfare state, but because of that we have a very productive economy a smaller tax burden for everyone. I prefer the one that benefits the economy as a whole, if Europe wants to use their money for universal health care, go for it.
I could very easily say to you "tell that to all the Swedes who must give up 80% of their earnings".
America can easily endure witha segment of the population without health insurance, can Europe easily survive if they do not encourage economic growth?
You seem to underestimate the problem of uninsured in the U.S. According to what people believe is fair, if you work a real job, you should be able to get medical insurance. The greatest segment of uninsured is the working poor: honest people who work low paying jobs that do not offer medical insurance. They are playing by the rules, and they are getting cheated.
Furthermore, the uninsured are costing the U.S. money. It is not a direct cost, though. It comes in the form of foreclosures of homes, cars, or bankruptcies, when the heads of a household get sick and have to leave the workforce. It also comes as lawsuits against companies, corporation, or cities, when uninsured people get in accidents and cannot afford their medical bills.
Then you also have a public health problem brewing for the U.S. If these people are not getting medical treatment, it is possible that these people can start an epidemic that can spread to the rest of the population.
This is one of the greatest flaws of the U.S. How can a nation with 40% of Evangelical Christians allow such an un-Christian reality of leaving people without access to doctors and medicines? Dont they value life?
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