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Who is Jesus Christ, Really?

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Red Russian View Drop Down
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  Quote Red Russian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who is Jesus Christ, Really?
    Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 18:41
Wait, so your saying that the earth has only been around for 14,000 years? and your denying something that HAS been proven, for something that hasn't.....?
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  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 18:51
He is a young Earth Creationist, the dumbest denial I have ever heard. These people do not know what the word proof means, they just know what some hypocritical book that has no scientific backing tells them. Science has already proven that the Earth is in the billions, any denial of that puts somebody with the "flat earth" theorists.

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  Quote Red Russian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 18:58
^^ I couldn't agree more.

The Problem with many Christains i find. Is that the are afraid to question there faith, due to the fact they might lose it. I have to admit. At one time, was much like many Christians, ruthlessly Defending god. Then, ALAS! I saw the truth through all the lies. I like to refer to my self as a born agian atheist!
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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 19:12
Originally posted by boomajoom

This age of the earth is almost 14,000 years old. This is marked by the "days of creation", each lasting a thousand years. Man has been around for about 8,000 years of that. Before the creation of this age, we all existed in spirit with God. So really, we kinda did know. As far as Christ coming when He did, this is because God's plan operates very systematically. By days. So Christ came on a particular day because it accorded with the plan. All others who lived before Christ were visited while Christ was in the grave and given the same opportunity at salvation that we have. We only are here now because Satan rebelled and many of us needed to be tested.

I know I must be respectful to other people's beliefs and all... But... Just... Can't help it.

    
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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 19:19
I have a question too:

Earth's size in the universe proves that we are obviously unimportant. How about that?

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  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 20:07
Originally posted by Red Russian

^^ I couldn't agree more.

The Problem with many Christains i find. Is that the are afraid to question there faith, due to the fact they might lose it. I have to admit. At one time, was much like many Christians, ruthlessly Defending god. Then, ALAS! I saw the truth through all the lies. I like to refer to my self as a born agian atheist!

I was raised a Christian, but after using logical argument, I found the factual errors in Christianity. I could then see that all religions never presented proof. Different from you, I became an agnostic, not an athiest.

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  Quote boomajoom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 21:07
...   
    

Edited by boomajoom - 25-Jul-2006 at 21:12
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 21:32
    
I do know of on miracle where the statues of the deity Ganesha drank milk on Sept 21, 1995. There were no holes in the trunks of the statues, and from what this article says, India was basicly closed for the day so everyone could feed the statues. To me, this sounds like the most believable miracle, and yet I'm still scepitcul until I could see it, and exmine it myself. I also would like to know of the possibilities before I jump to convlusions.


I think is quite impossible that so many cases in the same time in India to be fake. I`m convinced that miracles appears in other than Christian religion. In Orthodox teachings there is speak about true miracles and fake miracles, the second being also supernatural phenomena but made by bad spirites.

.......................

Not a one from his own lifetime.


The nature of Christian religion made not necesary the images in the first decades. Christian teachings speak about God as Persons and man made after His image. So, icons are not necesary, they are supliments of religious acts.


.........................

There Is Scientific proof that te world has been around for something like 5 billion years. Just these last 2,000 years thats 1/2,500,000 of the time this earth was created. People have been christians and belived in a god. Now WHY would a god let his great earth floourish for so long wihtout knwoing that he is teh creator?


If God exists, than the scientific proofs are ratherly His simulations, not existential realities.

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  Quote Red Russian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 21:38
Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa


Originally posted by Red Russian

^^ I couldn't agree more.

The Problem with many Christains i find. Is that the are afraid to question there faith, due to the fact they might lose it. I have to admit. At one time, was much like many Christians, ruthlessly Defending god. Then, ALAS! I saw the truth through all the lies. I like to refer to my self as a born agian atheist!
I was raised a Christian, but after using logical argument, I found the factual errors in Christianity. I could then see that all religions never presented proof. Different from you, I became an agnostic, not an athiest.


Well, you could probaly still call me agnostic. I would still LIKE there to be a god, and quite possibly their is! But, until proof arises, I will be an agnostic.

My freinds ask me "Do you belive in god?" My response: "Some days"
    
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  Quote boomajoom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 22:29
I'm going to drop out of the "debate". You guys really aren't listening to me. I never said the earth was just 14,000 years old, just that this age was. The age where man would be flesh. The world is billions of years old.

It would seem to me that some of you are more interested in making fun of my beliefs and/or trying to apply an artificial stereotypes on me and other believers. And I won't have any part of that.    
    

Edited by boomajoom - 25-Jul-2006 at 22:30
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  Quote Red Russian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 23:28
Were not trying to make fun of you. Its jsut from any Outside veiw of this situation, we are jsut so bewildered about this whole "Christianity" thing. Its Blows our minds that people can be so close minded toward the facts! No offense is Intended. And wer are listening, we have listened before! I was raised a christian, and in Texas at that! BELIVE ME! I know about Christianity! The thing is we feel that you are not listening to the reasoning here.

The best Advice i cna give to you is: Don't be afraid to question your faith. Whawts the worst that could happen? You see the truth?
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  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 23:31
American christian vs Communist atheist.

SOunds familiar
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  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 23:32
Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa


Originally posted by Red Russian

^^ I couldn't agree more.

The Problem with many Christains i find. Is that the are afraid to question there faith, due to the fact they might lose it. I have to admit. At one time, was much like many Christians, ruthlessly Defending god. Then, ALAS! I saw the truth through all the lies. I like to refer to my self as a born agian atheist!
I was raised a Christian, but after using logical argument, I found the factual errors in Christianity. I could then see that all religions never presented proof. Different from you, I became an agnostic, not an athiest.

Maybe instead of being "enlightened" this is your way of rebelling against your upbringing? or rebelling against your parents. and this is just speculating

    

Edited by Ponce de Leon - 25-Jul-2006 at 23:33
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  Quote Red Russian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 23:38
Thats what my Parents thought when i told them I was an atheist, man they were dissapointed...........then i told them I was also a commy lol. Not a good day, to say the least!
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 05:12
Originally posted by gcle2003


I'm studing magic, at least by its modern name: Engineering.
That sounds like someone who read my book. (And understood it).

Is this a metaphorical or actual book?
Originally posted by Ellin

I can't be bothered repeating myself, right now, so I'll just press on with more proof for you.

Archaeological Discoveries that confirm Biblical Accounts:

Large post, not going to quote it all. My answer: So? Thats not proof at all, it just shows that the writers of the bible used historical names. Just like lots of other historical fiction books.

A number of passages in the Qur'an make rather direct
reference to the death and resurrection of Jesus.

"Behold! Allah said:
'Jesus I am about to cause you to die [take thee] and lift you up to
Me. I shall take you from the unbelievers and exalt your followers above
them till the day of Resurrection'" (Surah 3, Ali-'Imrans, The Family
of Imran: 55).
Perhaps one of the clearest declarations in the Qur'an on
this question is in the words attributed to Jesus Himself: "Peace on me
the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised
alive! Such was Jesus, son of Mary [this is] a statement of the truth
concerning which they doubt," (Surah 19, Maryam, Mary: 33,34).

Even the Qu'ran states Jesus' sinless nature
For an angel comes to tell Mary, "I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son" (Surah 19, Maryam, Mary:19).
At the same time, the Qu'ran acknowledges that Jesus was born through power of the Holy Spirit of God, not through any human agency:
"And Mary, daughter of 'Imran, whose body was chaste, therefore We breathed there in something of Our Spirit"
(Surah 66, Al-Tahrim, Banning: 12).
Therefore, in a spiritual sense, one who is born with God's Spirit should be called God's Son.

LOL! Now I'm laughing my head off! A chrisitan using the Quran to justify thier beliefs! I thought you didn't believe in the Quran?!

[19:55];
    None of the translations I have available mention the word die.
Originally posted by [19:55

]YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
PICKTHAL: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.
SHAKIR: And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

I don't see anything in any of these that give mention to the resurrection of Jesus. (the 'Day of Ressurection' is the same as 'Day of Judgement'). Even from the translation you provided, nothing supports the ressurection of Jesus at any other time than the day of judgement.

[19:33-34] Again, resurection in the Quran always means the day of judgement (the day of resurrection). Nothing to do with easter.

Yes, Jesus is a prophet and a virgin birth (which is not necessarily scientifically impossible, just extremely improbable). But certainly not a 'Son of God'
Originally posted by [19:35

]It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

If I were to clone an embryo, and implant it in womb. Although I created that creature, I am not its father.
Originally posted by boomajoom

What are you? You don't sound like a catholic, are you orthodox?
I'm a Christian.

I'm alive.
Since this is a discussion about christianity I don't think that was an unfair question.


I like how you misunderstand something and then attempt to use that as supposed "proof" that it isn't true. One of those geneologies, if I remember correctly, uses the word "begat" while the other does not. One is for Mary, the other is for Joseph. I already pointed this out.

What!? Are you reading the same bible as me?
Originally posted by Luke

23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought,
of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat,
       the son of Levi, the son of Melki,
       the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,
...

 

Originally posted by Matthew

    1 This is the genealogy [a] of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham:

...

    15 Eliud the father of Eleazar,
       Eleazar the father of Matthan,
       Matthan the father of Jacob,

    16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary,
and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.

Sorry, no. They are clearly contradictory. The bible was not written by an infalliable being.

A pure bloodline...Christ is of the king line. He is a direct descendant of Abraham and of a bloodline that wasn't tainted by the Nephilim or anything else funky. His descent was perfect.

So? I'm a direct decendant of Abraham too. That doesn't mean anything.

Originally posted by Barbarossa

Originally posted by RedRussian


The Problem with many Christains i find. Is that the are afraid to question there faith, due to the fact they might lose it. I have to admit. At one time, was much like many Christians, ruthlessly Defending god. Then, ALAS! I saw the truth through all the lies. I like to refer to my self as a born agian atheist!

I was raised a Christian, but after using logical argument, I found the factual errors in Christianity. I could then see that all religions never presented proof. Different from you, I became an agnostic, not an athiest.

If I was born a Christian, I'd be atheist or agnostic too. I just can't figure out why people still follow it.

Well, you could probaly still call me agnostic. I would still LIKE there to be a god, and quite possibly their is! But, until proof arises, I will be an agnostic.

My freinds ask me "Do you belive in god?" My response: "Some days"

Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on belief in God. Just because the oven's broken it doesn't mean you need a whole new kitchen.

Edited by Omar al Hashim - 26-Jul-2006 at 22:29
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 05:44
 Out of the dark ages  before 600bc  history was debatable ,however the gospels were written. It does`nt matter who believes in them or not.  As for me, its not so much of how Jesus was born, or how he died, but of what he had to say.He seem to know more of the state of heaven then anyone. If that makes him more of a god or son of god does`nt matter etheir. Jesus `s church was within.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 06:31
 
Originally posted by Ellin


Looks like some of you have 'selective reading' haha..
I can't be bothered repeating myself, right now, so I'll just press on with more proof for you.
 
You haven't given any at all so far. Just a collection of tales and some proof that the collections of tales existed - which no-one denies, though there may be some minor disagreement about dates. That they existed doesn't mean they were true.


Archaeological Discoveries that confirm Biblical Accounts:

An inscription at a Roman theatre in Caesarea Martima reading, "Pontius Pilate, prefect of Judea".

Duh! Of course there are Roman remains that mention the name of the Roman governor. They're all over the place. No-one disputes that Pilate was the Roman governor (whatever his exact title).

You know something? There are signposts all over France pointing to Paris. Does that prove the Da Vinci Code is true? I mean, I've BEEN to the Louvre and I've SEEN the Mona Lisa.
 
It doesn't prove that Jesus married Mary Magdalene, although by your logic it does.


An inscription found in Northern Israel mentioning King David's
dynasty. The inscription is the oldest reference to any Biblical figure outside the Bible.

Duh! again. I don't know whether David was a historical figure or not; he may have been. But he was certainly a well-known figure, so it's hardly surprising he is mentioned.

Again - There's an inscription that says King Arthur's round table hangs on the wall in Winchester. And I've SEEN the table.
 
But, unlike you, I don't find that convincing proof that the Morte D'Arthur is anything but fiction.


The discovery of an ossuary, a stone box used for retaining bones of
the deceased, inscribed with the name of Caiaphas, the high priest who
presided over the trial of Jesus shortly before his crucifixion.

Again no-one (well maybe someone does) disputes that Caiaphas was High Priest. So?

In Aachen Cathedral you'll find a tomb inscribed with the name of Charlemagne. Does that mean the story of Roncesvalles is true?
 
Legends quite often incorporate historical figures. It doesn't prove anything.


Israeli archeologists have uncovered a 1st century cave, in
a suburb south of Jerusalem, which served as a tomb to a family of
disciples of Jesus Christ.


The burial cave, carved in the mountainside, off the Kidron Valley,
contained several coffins, with names engraved on their sides, as well
as signs of the cross. These inscriptions identified the cave as the
burial vault of the Barsabas family. This family is well known to us,
since several of its members are mentioned in the book of Acts
. The
tomb remained hidden for nearly 2000 years.
 
There were Christians in Palestine. True. They died. True - at least I guess they did. They were buried in ossuaries. Usually. Some of them were named Barnabas. Virtually certainly. This was the family named in Acts. Highly unlikely but I guess possibly since Acts (in its accounts of the disciples' journeyings) probably has a fair basis in fact.
 
No-one challenges any of that. It just doesn't prove anything except stuff we already knew.


Eminent Jerusalem Historian, Prof. Ory N. Mazar, states that "at
least some members of this family were among the very first disciples
of Christ."
 
At a stretch, that coulr even be true. We know that there were followers of Jesus. Some of them must have been the very first. Thay're probably all dead now, so they're probably buried somewhere. Why not here?
 
It doesn't prove anything Jesus said, or the Gospel writers recounted, was true.
 
The stuff that follows about the historical references in the Old Testament is nothing new. Everyone accepts that the OT has at least some historical accuracy. As the eventually written down oral history of a culture it would be surprising if it didn't.
 
But, once more, the legends of Arthur correctly refer to England and France. They mention the Roman Empire. Many of the place names within Britain have been identified.
 
But that doesn't prove the legends are true.
 
I'm pretty patient but I can't be bothered with the rest of the nonsense.


Edited by gcle2003 - 26-Jul-2006 at 06:48
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 06:45
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by gcle2003


I'm studing magic, at least by its modern name: Engineering.
That sounds like someone who read my book. (And understood it).

Is this a metaphorical or actual book?
 
Actual. Managers and Magic, 1971 Longmans, London; 1973 EP Dutton, NY; and various other editions around the world.
 
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 07:24

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Likely Image of Jesus
Likely Image of Jesus

Early Image of Jesus Found
By Jennifer Viegas, Discovery News
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Dec. 23, 2005 A rare 6th-century seal that bears the likely image of Jesus on one side and a cross symbol signifying the name "Christ" on the back recently was excavated in Tiberias, Israel, according to archaeologists who continue to work at the site.

Since seals with this imagery do not appear before the middle of the 6th century, the object is one of the first to show such early Christian symbolism.

"It is around this time that various images that later became popular in Christianity began to be depicted, such as Maria Theotocus the Virgin Mary holding the baby Jesus which appears on both seals and coins throughout the empire," said dig leader Yizhar Hirschfeld, a professor of archaeology at The Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

While Hirschfeld does not know precisely what influenced early artists' notion of what biblical figures looked like, he said, "It is reasonable to assume that artists who originally depicted Jesus had some kind of 'historical memory' of his character."

He told Discovery News that the lead seal had the shape and size of a large coin with a diameter of approximately .79 i

 
 
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  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 09:27
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon

Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa


Originally posted by Red Russian

^^ I couldn't agree more.

The Problem with many Christains i find. Is that the are afraid to question there faith, due to the fact they might lose it. I have to admit. At one time, was much like many Christians, ruthlessly Defending god. Then, ALAS! I saw the truth through all the lies. I like to refer to my self as a born agian atheist!
I was raised a Christian, but after using logical argument, I found the factual errors in Christianity. I could then see that all religions never presented proof. Different from you, I became an agnostic, not an athiest.

Maybe instead of being "enlightened" this is your way of rebelling against your upbringing? or rebelling against your parents. and this is just speculating

    

I'm not a rebel. I'm not just "rebelling against my upbringing". I found the fault in the religious belief system of my parents, and then later in all religions. How does that have anything to do with rebelling?

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