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Ancient Macedonian language

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  Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ancient Macedonian language
    Posted: 14-Dec-2006 at 05:09
The"Macedonian" I'm glad that you read Plato...Plato is good to open your mind...
What's your point now...that there isn't such ting as "greek language"?
Hermogenes and Socrates discuss about a word that doesn't sound hellenic...and they notice that Phrygians have some common words like udor(water) and kyn(dog)(have you ever heard IE language-family).
I don't think that there is even one to doupt for the value of the Greek language,espessialy the classic Attic...maybe you...
Have you ever heard the term "loan word"???Search your dictionary...except the thousand bulgarian(for you macedonian) words there is a huge ammount of greek words...don't be shocked...that happens...

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  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2006 at 05:13


Golden Ring found in grave in Sindos-central Macedonia,Greece.

Made of gold coming out of the nearby Echedoros/Gallikos river,by a local workshop.
Late 6th-early 5th century BC. (When Macedonian haven't adopted yet attic as official dialect of the state)

ΚΛΕΙΤΑΙ ΔΩΡΟΝ
Note that "ΔΩΡΟΝ" is the Greek word for Gift/Present  till now.



Edited by Brainstorm - 14-Dec-2006 at 05:20
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2006 at 14:23

I don't want to say that that means something but by fatal fortuity in all Slavonic languages words with root "ДАР" (DAR) means the same. But as Patrinos explained us there is a term "loan word" that usually explains all similarities between Greek and other languages Smile

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2006 at 20:33

OK Im Glad we can get on with writing again... this was a dead thread...

Ok how about...

Kledon
(this word is written in the dictionary of Hecili) <--- sorry for my translation
 
This word appears in both Macedonian and Greek...
- In the Greek version according to Lidle and Scot(dictionary) this word     ment "to fortell, prophecy, and was used to call out to someone".
- While the Macedonian meaning of the word "KLEDON" means "a bunch, a collection of things"
 
I don't know if modern Greek has this but in the Macedonian language there is a word "kladba" which basicly means "to bet, or to put a certan amount into a pile".
 
Kledon - Kled (with Kl[b]e[/b]d
Kladba - Klad (with Kl[b]a[/b]d
              (in dialect form of the Macedonian southern groupe we can see the word Klad-Kladi wich means "to put" ot "to place something near another object.")
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2006 at 20:34
Originally posted by Anton

I don't want to say that that means something but by fatal fortuity in all Slavonic languages words with root "ДАР" (DAR) means the same. But as Patrinos explained us there is a term "loan word" that usually explains all similarities between Greek and other languages Smile

 
Yes TRUE...
but the Question is ... who borrowed from who!?
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2006 at 22:36
Originally posted by theMacedonian2

OK Im Glad we can get on with writing again... this was a dead thread...

Ok how about...

Kledon
(this word is written in the dictionary of Hecili) <--- sorry for my translation
 
This word appears in both Macedonian and Greek...
- In the Greek version according to Lidle and Scot(dictionary) this word     ment "to fortell, prophecy, and was used to call out to someone".
- While the Macedonian meaning of the word "KLEDON" means "a bunch, a collection of things"
 
I don't know if modern Greek has this but in the Macedonian language there is a word "kladba" which basicly means "to bet, or to put a certan amount into a pile".
 
Kledon - Kled (with Kled
Kladba - Klad (with Klad
              (in dialect form of the Macedonian southern groupe we can see the word Klad-Kladi wich means "to put" ot "to place something near another object.")


OMG...Look, there is no "db"-sounds in the ancient macedonian language cause it is simply not slavic.

The word first of all is Κλειται (Klite) and not Kledon. In attic it is Kleito -s which means: famous, magnificent or excellent.

On a free traslation this would become a "magnificent gift" but in this case we could also to say "a gift for the excellency".

Other similar composite words are "Κλειταίχμη" (a type of spear), "Κύκλειται" (surrounded) and "Συνκέκλειται" (surrounded in non attic dialects). You also have names like Κλειτόμαχος (Excellent fighter) and Κλειταινετος.

Now doesn't it make sense?


Edited by Flipper - 15-Dec-2006 at 01:16


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2006 at 00:51
Also, I would like to recall one of Akritas researches about the ancient macedonian language. It has an ISO standard!!!

Ancient Macedonian language (provisional ISO-DIS 639-3.5 XMK).
Subgrouping Code : Ancient Greek language or IEGreekB
Group code: Greek Language or IEGreek.


Akritas
all credits goes out to you for this find!


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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2006 at 01:05
Originally posted by Flipper

Also, I would like to recall one of Akritas researches about the ancient macedonian language. It has an ISO standard!!!
Ancient Macedonian language (provisional ISO-DIS 639-3.5 XMK).Subgrouping Code : Ancient Greek language or IEGreekBGroup code: Greek Language or IEGreek.
Akritas all credits goes out to you for this find!

Thanks Flipper
A tribe that had only Greek names what language supposing to used for theirs daily life ?

Thracians used Greek and Thracian names
Illyrians used Greek and Illyrian names
Greeks used Greek names.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2006 at 01:10
Originally posted by akritas

Originally posted by Flipper

Also, I would like to recall one of Akritas researches about the ancient macedonian language. It has an ISO standard!!!
Ancient Macedonian language (provisional ISO-DIS 639-3.5 XMK).Subgrouping Code : Ancient Greek language or IEGreekBGroup code: Greek Language or IEGreek.
Akritas all credits goes out to you for this find!

Thanks Flipper
A tribe that had only Greek names what language supposing to used for theirs daily life ?

Thracians used Greek and Thracian names
Illyrians used Greek and Illyrian names
Greeks used Greek names.


The Thracians used Greek alphabet as well but wrote in their Thracian languages.

Let me add that their theater was in Greek as well. + That Macedonians had theaters (4 to be precise) before the Hellenistic years, something that was present only in Greek cultures by that time.


Edited by Flipper - 15-Dec-2006 at 01:22


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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2006 at 01:23
You are righ Flipper. It is a well-known fact that only the ancient Greeks had theaters in Classical period. The four ancient theaters in Macedonia are in Dion, Vergina, Philippi, and Thassos. The theater of Dion hosted the first performance (before an audience of Greek-speaking Macedonians, of course) of Euripides world-famous tragedy Bacchae, which he wrote at Pella of Macedonia. Euripides died and was buried in Macedonia.
    

Edited by akritas - 15-Dec-2006 at 01:24
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2006 at 05:00
Again, just to correct Flipper- most of Thracian inscriptions were made in Greek and only 4 found in Thracian language.

Edited by Anton - 15-Dec-2006 at 05:01
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2006 at 07:32
Originally posted by Anton

Again, just to correct Flipper- most of Thracian inscriptions were made in Greek and only 4 found in Thracian language.


I think we've been both short in getting into details. When I mean Thracian, I don't  mean the Ionian Greek inscriptions of Thrace, but those belonging to the Phrygian, Paionian and other non-Greek tribes before their Hellenization. The ones you refer to are all Phrygian and before Hellenistic years if i'm correct. Those are unreadable by me and ofcourse by any other Greek speaker.


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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2006 at 08:47
Originally posted by Flipper

  When I mean Thracian, I don't  mean the Ionian Greek inscriptions of Thrace, but those belonging to the Phrygian, Paionian and other non-Greek tribes before their Hellenization.
 
 
Since I do not understand this term applicable to Thracians I cannot say anything to agree or disagree with you. Smile
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2006 at 09:15
The Ionian thracian bla bla bla i said was unclear. Dead

I ment that inscriptions from the coastal Ionian colonies of Thrace are not Thracian inscriptions. Yes, they were found in Thrace but the Ionians do not fit to the group "Thracians".

So, to summarize it. The inscriptions in Greek that were found in Thrace, before the Hellenistic age, were Ionian. In other words there are no e.g Paionian inscriptions in Thrace that were written in Greek during the classical age. Those 4 you mention were Phrygian and were written in the Phrygian language using Greek letters.

Were I clear now? :)


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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2006 at 09:36
Maybe. I just do not see any reason to suppose that Thracian adopted Greek language during Hellenistic age and thus in every particular case one need to prove that they were made by Greeks instead of "educated Thracians".
Once we wrote each other PMs in English and Swedish which obviously does not mean that you are Englishman and I am (edited)Swedish. Right? I write this not to discuss Hellenization of Thracians again but to point out that your logic about Macedonians speaking Greek and difference with Thracians might not be as obvious as you suggest.  But I might be wrong and all inscriptions found in Thrace, Moesia and other places were indeed maid by Greeks.

Edited by Anton - 15-Dec-2006 at 10:59
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2006 at 11:08
Originally posted by Anton

Maybe. I just do not see any reason to suppose that Thracian adopted Greek language during Hellenistic age and thus in every particular case one need to prove that they were made by Greeks instead of "educated Thracians".
Once we wrote each other PMs in English and Swedish which obviously does not mean that you are Englishman and I am Greek. Right? I write this not to discuss Hellenization of Thracians again but to point out that your logic about Macedonians speaking Greek and difference with Thracians might not be as obvious as you suggest.  But I might be wrong and all inscriptions found in Thrace, Moesia and other places where indeed maid by Greeks.


Yeah, I agree, it doesn't mean everything got Hellenized in one day.

However, don't compare our current globalized, non isolated society with that one back in the days. This is a very common error.

The best parallell in the case of Thrace is the Phrygians of thrace. The rest is not much to compare with the Macedonians. So, we can be more specific now.

A better example than Thrace could be some Italic tribes in Italy who used the Greek alphabet at a very early stage but wrote in their language. Anyway, the point is that in the areas mentioned by Akritas, they didn't start to write in Greek from one day to another at the same extend.




Edited by Flipper - 15-Dec-2006 at 11:10


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2006 at 11:24
Also one more thing about the English/Swedish thing and the PMS.

The fact that we're able to communicate this way, is because you have lived in Sweden and for me swedish is a native language. On the English side, I can speak with you in English because I went to a private school for english, I got certificated with Lower, Advanced and Technical English diplomas, I had an native english speaking girlfriend,my work etc ect.

Now, if I'm going to do a dedication to my dead wife I will definetely not write it in English. I would do it in Greek. Furthermore, I would give my kids a Greek or Swedish name and not an English f.ex Ian, like you wouldn't name your kids for Torbjrn, Torsten or Gunilla. And I would definetely not name my kids for United Kindom LOL

The last is a funny statement but there were women in Macedonia named Hellas lol. I mean, even in Greece today it is extremelly rare to find a girl named Hellada or Hellen. They would eather be children of a Pagan father or I don't know what.


Edited by Flipper - 15-Dec-2006 at 11:37


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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2006 at 11:45
Still, I find something improper in your logic. You make difference between Macedonians who used Greek alphabeth and Greek language with other different nations around who used Greek alphabeth but own language. But this is incorrect. Compare 4 inscription in Thracian language to Greek ones found in the same area. They all could be done by Greeks (which to me is doubtfull), but there are many other examples, f.e. Goths.
They  left even books in Greek (or was it Latin???) and none of inscription on their language was found in Balkan (Do not count Codex Argenteus, since many people doubt that it is Gotic and it was not found in Balkan). They still remained Goths who spoke Germanic or whatever language and nobody think that they are Greek or Romans. Same is with Macedonians, if they were not Greek speaking tribe (at the beggining), there is nothing surprising that there is no inscription in hypothetical Macedonian language were found.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2006 at 11:52
Originally posted by Flipper

Also one more thing about the English/Swedish thing and the PMS.

The fact that we're able to communicate this way, is because you have lived in Sweden and for me swedish is a native language. On the English side, I can speak with you in English because I went to a private school for english, I got certificated with Lower, Advanced and Technical English diplomas, I had an native english speaking girlfriend,my work etc ect.

Now, if I'm going to do a dedication to my dead wife I will definetely not write it in English. I would do it in Greek. Furthermore, I would give my kids a Greek or Swedish name and not an English f.ex Ian, like you wouldn't name your kids for Torbjцrn, Torsten or Gunilla. And I would definetely not name my kids for United Kindom LOL

The last is a funny statement but there were women in Macedonia named Hellas lol. I mean, even in Greece today it is extremelly rare to find a girl named Hellada or Hellen. They would eather be children of a Pagan father or I don't know what.
 
I do not know about dedications, here you may be right. But I can easely call my children Peter, Pavel or Daniil which are obviously not Bulgarian or Swedish Smile  Anyway, I responded to very particular post of yours (from 4:10 p.m.), not to the whole thread.


Edited by Anton - 15-Dec-2006 at 11:53
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2006 at 11:53
You have other factors that give you a coclution as well. You can see from an archeological aspect that the people living in the area are not close to the rest. Also, the Goths didn't have names, religion, culture that was anything alike the macedonians. + You're examining another period. +the goths wrote things in their language as well. How much written gothic data do you have in the balcans and how much macedonian? Other people wrote about their comming as they did with the Slavs and Gauls.


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