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What if Serbia didnt participate in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia?

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  Quote Beowulf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What if Serbia didnt participate in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia?
    Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 09:25

I often think if things would be different today if Serbia decided not to form a south slav state during WWI. Namely, we had a chance to make a greater Serbia, yet our politicians decided to participate in south slavic experiment (in spite of the war crimes Croats and Slovenians commited during WWI as a part of Austro Hungarian troops). Even before WWI Croatia showed strong hatred toward Serbs in 1902. there were anti Serb demonstrations (funny the leader was half Serbian himself). I guess the Croats and Slovenians decided to participate our joint state in order to save their teritories. As a sign of good will we Serbs decided to forget all about their war crimes all those war criminals pretty much got away with it.

Nikola Pasic, our primeminister opposed the idea of unification, but he was forced to accept it because of the preassure by our king and most politicians.

 

What is your oppinion about this subject? If Serbia refused to participate in south slav state what would happen with todays ex Yugoslavian states? Would they be a part of Hungary, Italy, Austria and Serbia? 



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  Quote Bosniathebestcountry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 09:32
why couldnt we all have just get along? we speak the same language, were all the same people, but based on ethnicity which is the main tool the corrupt politicans like milosevic and tudjman used we started hating and seperating each other? and for what? is serbia bosnia and croatia in a better position now than we were when we were united? not a chance in hell. economicly we're completely flunking. Over pointless hatred. Our bigger enemies are western europe and america, we should focus on competeing together against them instead of each other.
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 09:57

Serbia was the core state as well as the brain of Yugoslavia.  That kingdom was inconceivable without Serbia, and that is a major reason the kingdom stayed together in the 1920s and 30s.

Had Serbia not been involved, the Bosnian, Croatian and Slovenian lands would have come under outside influence (Hungary; Italy).  Montenegro probably would have joined with Serbia anyway, but Italy may have tried to block a Serb outlet to the Adriatic.

 

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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 10:14
If Serbia was not part of the first Yugoslavia, then
Croatia would certainly have hosted the capital city
and produced the bulk of Yugoslavia's politicians
and policies.

Slovenia and Croatia would have formed much
closer ties with Roman Catholic Europe. Without the
idealism of a South Slavic state to satisfy the public
support for independence in Bosnia and
Herzegovina - which by this point had been
expressed through rebellion against two of the
world's greatest empires in less than a century -
would have grown stronger and been focused on
securing Bosnia's independence from the first
Yugoslavia.

Despite appearances, life for Bosniaks would
probably have been worse under Croatian rule.
Croatians, at that time, considered Bosniaks to be
simply Croatian Muslims and the respect for the
territorial integrity and borders of Bosnia and
Herzegovina we enjoyed in the first Yugoslavia under
Serbian rule would have been non-existant.

By the time WWII came around, Bosniaks would
have been so thoroughly Croatian-loyal that they
wouldn't have been split between the Ustasa and the
Partizans, and with Bosnia's Serbian population so
much less and geographically lumped together as
they were prior to 1914, they'd probably have suffered
even more losses than, in reality, they did.

On the other hand, a vast number - I believe even a
majority - of Bosnia's Serbs moved to the country
between 1918 and 1992. That would not have
happened and so if the 1991-1996 war still took
place in Yugoslavia, Bosnia would have fared better
than Croatia and slightly worse than Slovenia, but far
better than it did in reality.

The country would still have functioned. There have
been musings over a
Slovenia-Croatia-Bosnia-Montenegro union for years
and everyone who suggested it talked about the
Slovenia-Croatia-Bosnia union as appropriate and
inevitable, and discussed Montenegro as the only
one that probably wouldn't join. So I don't believe it
wouldn't have functioned.

Following WWII there would've been no great,
anti-fascist state established. The Croats and
Bosniaks would still have their Ustasa, the Serbs
their Cetniks, and no one would've been punished
for the crimes committed by either group. The
Partizans, predominantly Serbian, would not have
been able to do as much. In the
Slovenia-Croatia-Bosnia union the number of
Partizans would've been too small to accomplish
much of anything. But, likewise - without Tito, the
Serbian Partizans might not have done much at all
either.

I think we'd have eventually seen the same downfall
of events. Instead of Bosniaks being victimized, it
would've been Serbs - and Croatia would've been
the country most devastated by war. Slovenia
would've ended up much the same way it did.
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  Quote Beowulf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 10:29

Originally posted by Bosniathebestcountry

why couldnt we all have just get along? we speak the same language, were all the same people, but based on ethnicity which is the main tool the corrupt politicans like milosevic and tudjman used we started hating and seperating each other? and for what? is serbia bosnia and croatia in a better position now than we were when we were united? not a chance in hell. economicly we're completely flunking. Over pointless hatred. Our bigger enemies are western europe and america, we should focus on competeing together against them instead of each other.

Ok, we can get along (better then killing each other).

"we speak the same language, were all the same people": You shouldn't say that to Croatians: officially they are 75% Iranians - rest of us are "lower race" .

"Our bigger enemies are western europe and america, we should focus on competeing together against them instead of each other.": I agree with that. In some way West (especially America) pushed us all in to a civil war. All they care is profit. They don't care about all those terminaly ill people in Bosnia, Kosovo, Serbia... caused by their uranium bombs.



Edited by Beowulf
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  Quote Beowulf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 10:32
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Serbia was the core state as well as the brain of Yugoslavia.  That kingdom was inconceivable without Serbia, and that is a major reason the kingdom stayed together in the 1920s and 30s.

Had Serbia not been involved, the Bosnian, Croatian and Slovenian lands would have come under outside influence (Hungary; Italy).  Montenegro probably would have joined with Serbia anyway, but Italy may have tried to block a Serb outlet to the Adriatic.

I couldn't agree more.

I'm suprised that someone outside of Serbia understands this situation .   

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Mornie alanti (darkness has fallen)

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  Quote Beowulf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 10:42

Originally posted by Mila

If Serbia was not part of the first Yugoslavia, then
Croatia would certainly have hosted the capital city
and produced the bulk of Yugoslavia's politicians
and policies.

I have to correct you - without Serbia there wouldn't be Yugoslavia. That's because Serbia was one of the allies that won WWI, and on Serbia's initiative Yugoslavia was created*. Croatians and Slovenians were part of AH and they had no rights to ask for anything. Most probably they would became part of Austria, Hungary and Italy. In fact the reason why they entered Yugoslavia is to avoid their teritories being taken away. 

*American president Woodroe Wilson influenced greatly on creating Yugoslavia, due to his close friendship with Michael (Mihajlo) Pupin - a world known Serbian scientist living in America.

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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 10:45
I agree - but it's not as though Slovenia and Croatia
were forced into the first Yugoslavia - after WWII,
Croatia was again incorporated into Yugoslavia
against its wishes, but the first time around there
was as much public support for Yugoslavia in
Croatia as there was elsewhere.

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  Quote Beowulf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 10:53

I think it's very doubtful whether they wanted to participate or not - very few of them wanted to fight for it when asked by our guerilla fighters (Chetniks). I said:

Even before WWI Croatia showed strong hatred toward Serbs in 1902. there were anti Serb demonstrations (funny the leader was half Serbian himself).

So you can see how they felt about us... even before there was any conflicts.

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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 10:53
Originally posted by Beowulf

Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Serbia was the core state as well as the brain of Yugoslavia.  That kingdom was inconceivable without Serbia, and that is a major reason the kingdom stayed together in the 1920s and 30s.

Had Serbia not been involved, the Bosnian, Croatian and Slovenian lands would have come under outside influence (Hungary; Italy).  Montenegro probably would have joined with Serbia anyway, but Italy may have tried to block a Serb outlet to the Adriatic.

I couldn't agree more.

I'm suprised that someone outside of Serbia understands this situation .   

A mis-spent university major. 

 

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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 10:55
I don't question that, Beowulf. But then...that can
either strengthen your point or my own.

Why would Croatians, if there was significant social
prejudice against Serbs, listen to Serbian ideas in
1918 anyways? There would have to be public
support in Croatia for the first Yugoslavia and they'd
never have been able to "capitulate to Serbian ideas"
if there was such a strong prejudice in Croatian
society.

EDIT: And I have to say, I love how you quoted
yourself to demonstrate your point. You'll make
a fine Bosnian politician one day.

Edited by Mila
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  Quote Beowulf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 10:58
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Originally posted by Beowulf

Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Serbia was the core state as well as the brain of Yugoslavia.  That kingdom was inconceivable without Serbia, and that is a major reason the kingdom stayed together in the 1920s and 30s.

Had Serbia not been involved, the Bosnian, Croatian and Slovenian lands would have come under outside influence (Hungary; Italy).  Montenegro probably would have joined with Serbia anyway, but Italy may have tried to block a Serb outlet to the Adriatic.

I couldn't agree more.

I'm suprised that someone outside of Serbia understands this situation .   

A mis-spent university major. 

Rather well - spent, i think...at least someone knows something outside of Princip killing F.Ferdinand...

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Believe and you will find your way

Mornie alanti (darkness has fallen)

A promise lives within you now ...
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  Quote Beowulf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:02

Originally posted by Mila

Why would Croatians, if there was significant social
prejudice against Serbs, listen to Serbian ideas in
1918 anyways?
EDIT: And I have to say, I love how you quoted
yourself to demonstrate your point. You'll make
a fine Bosnian politician one day.

Because they had absolutely no other way out!It was either Serbs or bye, bye Croatia...There wasn't excatly a freedom of choice...

No thank you - don't want nothing to do with politics...



Edited by Beowulf
... Mornie utli (darkness has come)

Believe and you will find your way

Mornie alanti (darkness has fallen)

A promise lives within you now ...
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:03

Beowulf:

I really don't think you can blame the Yugoslav civil wars on the West.  That is more than a stretch.

 

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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:04
Then the same could have held true for the first
Yugoslavia without Serbia? They'd have wanted it to
ensure the survival of their state.

Though I'm starting to see what you mean. I'd be
surprised if Slovenia and Croatia ever really came up
with the idea for a first Yugoslavia during that era.

But, maybe they would've become an Iranian
satellite?
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  Quote Beowulf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:07
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Beowulf:

I really don't think you can blame the Yugoslav civil wars on the West.  That is more than a stretch.

They certainly added some oil to the fire...I'm not saying it's the West to blame exclusively... Anyway, they had some interests - at least. 

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Believe and you will find your way

Mornie alanti (darkness has fallen)

A promise lives within you now ...
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  Quote Beowulf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:10

Originally posted by Mila

But, maybe they would've become an Iranian
satellite?

 I'm sure that the Croatians would be delighted. 

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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:12
I think people should stop saying Iranian in
reference to these Croatian studies. Just say Aryan
and note the ideas were popularized during the
Ustasa era so people have a truer idea what they
hypothsis is and why it was brought out of the
shadows.
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  Quote NikeBG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 11:38
Btw, there's another question, which interests me: What would've happened if the talks of a united state of Serbia and Bulgaria had succeeded (I think during the time of King Milan)? Indeed, real Yugoslavia was big, but what if it reached whole the way to the Black Sea?
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2006 at 12:14

Originally posted by NikeBG

Btw, there's another question, which interests me: What would've happened if the talks of a united state of Serbia and Bulgaria had succeeded (I think during the time of King Milan)? Indeed, real Yugoslavia was big, but what if it reached whole the way to the Black Sea?

An interesting idea, but I don't see it as possible in the nationalist atmosphere pre- and post-WWI.

A state like that would also have concerned Turkey and Romania and Greece, and there would have been all kinds of other alliances, treaties, etc.  More stuff to cause more problems.

 

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