Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

What if American revolution didnt succeed?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
coolstorm View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 11-Nov-2004
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1066
  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What if American revolution didnt succeed?
    Posted: 23-Nov-2004 at 03:02

Many say Britain could have held on to her American colonies at a cost if she was willing to.

Britian retreated from America primarily because of the high expense of wars being fought on the continent and oppositions coming from home thinking that it wasn't worth sacraficing many for the thirteen colonies.

Yet, Birtish troops actually stationed in Boston until the 18th century.

If Britain did not lose the war, what would the war be like today?

Back to Top
Mr Bobo View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 09-Nov-2004
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote Mr Bobo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2004 at 04:39
hrm i dont quite get what you mean by "what would the war be like today" ,as in it would be still going on....?

its kina hard to tell what might have happend... there were alot of 'players' like the French and the Spanish who knows what they might have done....

id say it might have ended up seperated between lots of different colonies of different european powers.

"A child of five would understand this, send someone to fetch a child of five"
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2004 at 06:26
the United States would be a southern province of Canada.
Back to Top
Jalisco Lancer View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Mexico
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2112
  Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2004 at 08:52


One way or another the colonies in the Americas would reach the independence.

South america reached thru a though figth during 10 years or more.
Mexico struggled from 1810 to 1821.

Central America joined to the Mexican Empire after our independence.

The US would eventually reach the independence as well.
Back to Top
Paul View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
AE Immoderator

Joined: 21-Aug-2004
Location: Hyperborea
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 952
  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2004 at 11:12

The main cause of the rebellion was the fact Britain had signed treaties with all the Indian tribes and forbidden the colonies any westward expansion for over 40 years.

One possibility is the 13 colonies today would be a province of Canada or a small country akin to New Zealand. To the west of them would either be one huge or many smaller Indian countries.

Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
Back to Top
Jalisco Lancer View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Mexico
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2112
  Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2004 at 11:21
That reminds me Tejas and the decree of 1830 restricting the number of US settlers, but encouraging national, swiss, french and german inmigration.

Also the ban of slavery



Edited by Jalisco Lancer
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2004 at 14:02
I don't think it is matter of "if" but "when". Sooner or later U.S would have gained its Independence.
Back to Top
Komnenos View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Administrator

Joined: 20-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4361
  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2004 at 17:46

Originally posted by Khasar

I don't think it is matter of "if" but "when". Sooner or later U.S would have gained its Independence.

You're right of course, and the far more interesting question is when will Britain gain its independence from the U.S. Certainly not while Georg W.'s poodle is still in power in No.10 I'm looking forward to the "tea-party" in Portsmouth harbour when sackfuls of Big Macs are thrown over board.

[IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
Back to Top
Belisarius View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

Suspended

Joined: 09-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1296
  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2004 at 09:28

If the revolution had failed, two things might have happened.

- Britain goes bankrupt fighting her colonies and France. More taxes are brought on the colonies and more revolutions occur.

- Britain gives in to the colonists' demands, giving them seats in Parliament. Britain's industrial capacity would increase a hundred fold during the industrial revolution. By age of imperialism, Britain would be so wealthy and industrialized that the British Empire would have conquered more than a quarter of the world. It would have crushed the Central Powers in WWI because of the large population source for the trenches. It would have also crushed the Axis powers in WWII with its greater industrial capacity.

Anyway, just speculating.

Back to Top
chessrook1 View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary


Joined: 28-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote chessrook1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2004 at 07:54

It would have been a thirteen strip small east coast commonwealth country. You think the French would sell their territory to a British colony? Thus they wouldnt be able to get the Southwest states that use to belong to Spain or Northwest Mexico which was 1/3 of Mexico. I think Parliament was going to send a diplomatic envoy to settle things peacefully with the continental Congress or the colonies. But it was already too late after the first shots were fired and the continentals made the declaration of independence since communication at the time were slow compared to today or even in the later half of the 19th century when we had telegraphs. If there had been no revolution, there probably would never been a revolution in France, Napoleon would be an average French officer from Corsica, and the French king would still be in power. There would not be a revolution in Latin America, Russia, China, India, Cuba, Philippines, Germany, Africa etc. There would probably still have colonial powers today. A lot of countries were influenced by Americas revolution from a world superpower. Its never really been done before and it was unfathomable at the time. After the end of WW2 and the start of the First Vietnam War against the French, Ho Chi Minh in a radio broadcast read Americas Declaration of Independence and declared Vietnams independence from France.

Whats ironic about the American Revolution is that Americans had the highest standard of living throughout the empire and the lowest taxes. Britain had the highest amount of taxes in the empire. In fact when Benjamin Franklin, his son, and John Adams visited London and France they were shocked at the amount of poverty they saw. The people who shouldve rebelled were the British themselves.

Only 1/3 of Americans were continentals, 1/3 of Americans were loyalists, and 1/3 of Americans were neutrals (or didnt give ####). Though they still consider themselves British even after the war. What they took offense was that the colonials privacy and independence was lost when troops can go into their homes without a warrant or they were being taxed by a faraway government without representation. They were use to being an independent colony with out interference from their mother country. During the war, British troops entered this one old American colonials home and yelled at them that an "Englishmans home is his own castle!"



Edited by chessrook1
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2004 at 10:16

I need to think more about this, but a few observations:

Originally posted by chessrook1

It would have been a thirteen strip small east coast commonwealth country.

Actually I don't think the thirteen colonies would have merged into one. I think you would have ended up with three (at least) British dominions - Canada including the northern tier of states, a middle one based around Boston, New York and Philadephia, and a southern one.

You think the French would sell their territory to a British colony?

No, but substantial parts of it might well have been annexed in 1815. Or returned to Spain.

If there had been no revolution, there probably would never been a revolution in France, Napoleon would be an average French officer from Corsica, and the French king would still be in power.

I don't think that follows at all. The revolutionary tides in late eighteenth century France were much too strong to be resisted. There might have been minor differences in the history of 1789-1815 (there would have been no war of 1812), but no major ones I think. The doctrines on which the American Revolution was based weren't invented in America, and certainly not unique to it.

There would not be a revolution in Latin America, Russia, China, India, Cuba, Philippines, Germany, Africa etc. There would probably still have colonial powers today.

Same comment, mutatis mutandis.

A lot of countries were influenced by Americas revolution from a world superpower. Its never really been done before and it was unfathomable at the time.

Simply not true. Even ignoring the ancient world, you had the examples of Switzerland and the Netherlands. Look at the Oath of Abjuration, the United Provinces' declaration of independence from Spain and rejection of the rule of Philip II in 1581.

It very closely foreshadows the American Declaration of Independence.

 

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2004 at 13:37
What would our culture be like today if the American REvoultion Failed
Back to Top
dark_one View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 04-Sep-2004
Location: Russian Federation
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 454
  Quote dark_one Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2004 at 17:14
 Im guessing (answer to topic question) that either it would be independent along with Canada eventually and that the West would either be Mexico or a newly formed country that decclared it's independence from France.
Back to Top
hansioux View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 16-Aug-2004
Location: Taiwan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 537
  Quote hansioux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2004 at 17:44
Then people around the world will have to find someone else to blame for their crummy conditions instead of blaming their own government.
Begging plea of the weak can only receive disrespect, violence and oppression as bestowments. Blood and sweat of the weak can only receive insult, blame and abuse as rewards.

Lai Ho, Formosan Poet
Back to Top
chessrook1 View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary


Joined: 28-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote chessrook1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2004 at 18:17

Actually I don't think the thirteen colonies would have merged into one. I think you would have ended up with three (at least) British dominions - Canada including the northern tier of states, a middle one based around Boston, New York and Philadephia, and a southern one.

True. American colonies might have been separate commonwealth countries since they didnt really trust each other or loathe each other.

I don't think that follows at all. The revolutionary tides in late eighteenth century France were much too strong to be resisted. There might have been minor differences in the history of 1789-1815 (there would have been no war of 1812), but no major ones I think. The doctrines on which the American Revolution was based weren't invented in America, and certainly not unique to it.

Actually the French King was already heavy in debt wasnt he because of the French and Indian War. Provided monetary aid and military aid to the Americans means more taxes which upset its citizens who were already in shabby state from what Benjamin Franklin and John Adams saw when they visited France and England. It provided the tipping stone to the French revolution.

Simply not true. Even ignoring the ancient world, you had the examples of Switzerland and the Netherlands. Look at the Oath of Abjuration, the United Provinces' declaration of independence from Spain and rejection of the rule of Philip II in 1581.

I was going to say "at the time". I didnt include the ancient world like when the Romans kicked out their Etruscan kings or when the Helot slaves revolted against Sparta because its been awhile since that happen and most of the average colonists and peasants probably havent read a history book in their life during the time. But come on a lot of colonies in Latin America were influenced by the American revolution when its citizens (not soldiers) took up arms like the citizens at Lexington and Concord and declared its independence. Some peasant American colonist declared independence from one of the greatest super power of the world, and succeded even though the British were mostly winning the battle against the Continental regulars. Why shouldnt the Spanish colonists declare their independence from Spain another world superpower?

Back to Top
chessrook1 View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary


Joined: 28-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote chessrook1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2004 at 18:24

But its true that there other events in her ancestors history that influence the revolution like the Magna Carta and the English Civil War. In another history forum I visit, they said that the American Revolution was supposed to be a continuation of the English Civil War.

Back to Top
dark_one View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 04-Sep-2004
Location: Russian Federation
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 454
  Quote dark_one Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2004 at 19:18

I don't think that follows at all. The revolutionary tides in late eighteenth century France were much too strong to be resisted. There might have been minor differences in the history of 1789-1815 (there would have been no war of 1812), but no major ones I think. The doctrines on which the American Revolution was based weren't invented in America, and certainly not unique to it.

It did make Russia fight back France causing, most noteably, the fact that the Russian army saw ho advanced Europe was and some individuals tried to stage a coup in 1825, leading to almost a century (99 years) of revolts and a civil war.
Back to Top
Tobodai View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Antarctica
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4310
  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2004 at 00:47
I think because anti Americanism is so popular int he international world its easy to downplay th eimportance of the revolution, but thats not totally right.  Obviously the French revolution was far more important, but the American revolution was not only sucessful, unlike that of hte French, but most modern nations now have (at least in ideal) a constitution based on the American one.
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2004 at 18:45
Originally posted by chessrook1

Simply not true. Even ignoring the ancient world, you had the examples of Switzerland and the Netherlands. Look at the Oath of Abjuration, the United Provinces' declaration of independence from Spain and rejection of the rule of Philip II in 1581.

I was going to say "at the time". I didnt include the ancient world like when the Romans kicked out their Etruscan kings or when the Helot slaves revolted against Sparta because its been awhile since that happen and most of the average colonists and peasants probably havent read a history book in their life during the time. But come on a lot of colonies in Latin America were influenced by the American revolution when its citizens (not soldiers) took up arms like the citizens at Lexington and Concord and declared its independence. Some peasant American colonist declared independence from one of the greatest super power of the world, and succeded even though the British were mostly winning the battle against the Continental regulars. Why shouldnt the Spanish colonists declare their independence from Spain another world superpower?

Well, I said 'ignoring the ancient world' for much the same reasons. But I think you severely underplay the role of the Swiss and especially the Dutch. In particular Spain in the late 16th century was just as much a world power as Britain in 1776 - in fact much more of one.

Originally posted by Tobodai

Obviously the French revolution was far more important, but the American revolution was not only sucessful, unlike that of hte French, but most modern nations now have (at least in ideal) a constitution based on the American one.

I'm actually hard put to it to think of a modern nation with a constitution based on the US one. Care to give some examples?

France isn't. Germany isn't. Russia isn't. Japan of course isn't. I don't think any of the Commonwealth countries are.

I would have thought the most common model was the British one[1] of a separate Head of State with a Head of Government responsible to Parliament, whether the Head of State is hereditary as in Britain or elected as in Israel or Germany.

France and Russia have heads of State (Presidents) who have considerable power, but the executive responsibility is still shared by the prime minister. And there is effectively no separation of executive and legislature.

[1] I don't mean the countries copied Britain, but that they evolved the same way.

 

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2005 at 16:24
The book Empire by Nigel Furgeuson (sp?) suggests that the British lost the North American colonies for two main reasons. One, it was not as profitable as the West Indies and India colonies. And two, it was too heavily populated by Northern Europeans, and not indigenous peoples, to control.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.