Greeks are Hellenic-Slav, Roman, Turkic group
Macedonians are Macedonian-Slav, Roman,Illyrian, Thracian Turkic group
If there was a big influx of Slavic tribes in Greece were are they,
unless they mixed with the locals forming today modern Greeks, but on
this forum some people write about other people being of Slavic
descent, when in fact they are also....but they have there opinion,
that's fine.
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Makedonians are Hellines, you are obviously refering to the FYROMians.
Now on the claims of Hellines of being of Slavic descent, sorry but
genetics just don't agree with these claims, no matter whoever promotes
them.
Again from a similar topic:
The Slavic myth:
Of course Hellines are not a "pure race", but the available data
demonstrate that any potential introgression into the Hellinic gene
pool were minor and did not replace the indigenous people. Hence,
Fallmerayer's thesis has been disproved.
The Fallmerayer Thesis in the Light of Genetic Evidence
Jacob Fallmerayer stirred quite a controversy in the 19th century by
proposing that the Hellenic nation had perished in the Middle Ages by
admixture with Slavs and Albanians.
We are now in a position, through genetic evidence to evaluate this
thesis, at least with respect to the question of Slavic settlements.
Slavs are distinguished by having a specific Y-chromosome haplogroup
R1a, or HG3, or Eu19. This reaches frequencies of higher than 50% in
Poles and decreases significantly in non-Slavic populations. The
"Macedonians" of FYROM, the Slavic population immediately to the north
of Greece have frequencies of R1a of 35%.
We must warn that R1a itself is not a Slavic marker. This means that
any particular R1a sequence could, or could not be of Slavic origin.
But, a population that has mixed with Slavs is likely to show this in
relatively high levels of R1a.
Ornella Semino published a study in Science 290: 1155 in which the
levels of R1a (which she calls Eu19 are given in various populations.
Greeks have 11.8%, that is about 1/6 that of the Hungarians, who top
the list at 60%. The Hungarians are not Slavs, but from the genetic
standpoint they could very well be of Slavic origin, converted
linguistically by the Asiatic Magyars. The Poles at 56.4% are the
highest Slavic population.
We must note that ancient Slavic groups at the time of the Slavic
dispersals probably had even higher levels of R1a. After all, Poles and
Hungarians are themselves only partly Slavic in origin, and the result
of admixture of a predominantly Slavic element with indigenous
pre-Slavic ones. As a result, it is likely that at the time of their
migrations, the Slavs had even higher frequencies of R1a.
R1a did not originate with the Slavs (that is why it is not a Slavic
marker). Its origins in a Eastern European refugium after the Last
Glacial Maximum means that it has had plenty of time to spread across
the continent even to places where Slavs were never present. For
example, its frequency in Syrians at a frequency of 10%, close to that
of Greece, in the Saami of Scandinavia at 10%, Turks at 6.6% and in
Albanians in 9.8%. It is even found in the Dutch, at a frequency of
3.7%, a population that has been largely unaffected by any Slavonic
incursion. Given that Greece is closer to the area where R1a probably
originated, it is very likely that R1a lineages would have been part of
early population elements of the Balkans.
Thus, we know that at least a part of 11.8% of R1a in Greeks is of
pre-Slavic origin. We also know that the ancient Slavs had frequencies
of it in excess of 50%. It's hard to quantify the exact percentages,
but I will give an educated guess, that 5% of R1a lineages in Greece
are of Slavic origin, while the ancient Slavs had it in frequency of
75%. The picture is not much different if we change these numbers, but
they will do for now. As a result, the Slavonic influence in Greece
turns out to be about 7%, an almost exact match for the figure given by
Vasiliev in his History of the Byzantine Empire based on demographic
considerations.
This figure might turn out to be less, or slightly more. Better
resolution using markers distinguishing R1a chromosomes might provide
us with additional information. But, the conclusion seems unavoidable,
that the contribution of Slavs to the Greek gene pool (if any) is very
limited, certainly not enough to extinguish the noble Hellenic nation
as Fallmereyer had proposed.
It seems that a certain cystic fibrosis mutation is of Slavic origin
(in other words, the original population who became the Slavs came up
with this gene). The intersting thing is that Serbs, Croats and
Bulgarians don't carry the gene. What does this mean? It might mean
that the gene is not really the Slavic gene. Or, as the authors of the
report below say, southern Slavs lost the gene when they mixed with
other populations. I'm not saying they're right in making that
assumption. But who knows?
"Our results indicate that this mutation is particularly common in
Czech, Russian, Belorussian, Austrian, German, Polish, Ukrainian,
Slovenian, and Slovak patients. It is the second most common CF
mutation to be identified in Central and Eastern European CF patients.
By contrast, it was only sporadically detected in Western Europe and
was absent in Bulgarian, Croatian, Romanian and Serbian CF patients. It
was not found in diverse other populations of non-Slavic origin. The
geographic distribution of the mutation is similar to the spread of
Slavic populations during the first millenium."
source:
DIENEKES PONTIKOS
Some more info:
Haplogroup R1a ranges in Slavs from very low (in
Bulgarians) to very high (in Poles). Most Slavs have a
higher frequency of it than non-Slavs. Since the
various Slavs were formed by admixture of Proto-Slavs
with pre-Slavs, it follows that Proto-Slavs had a high
frequency of R1a, and this was diluted to various
degrees by admixture. Proto-Slavs had 50%+ frequency
of R1a, while Hellines have only 10%. Therefore, probable Slavic
admixture in Hellas is at most 20% in the most extreme
case.
However, not all 10% of Hellinic R1a is of Slavic origin,
since R1a is also found in the Near East where Slavs
never settled, and in Western Europe where Slavs
didn't settle either. If, e.g., 5% is of Slavic
origin, and the Proto-Slavs had something like 75% of
R1a, then the extent of Slavic admixture in Hellas is
something like 7%. Of course, it's not correct to use
"Serbs" or "Bulgarians" to quantify the extent of
Slavic admixture in Hellines, because Serbs and
Bulgarians are not representative of Slavs: they are
the result of admixture of Slavs and indigenous Balkan
people.
Near Eastern populations have high frequency of
haplogroup J1 (as much as almost 2/3 in the purest
Arabian groups), while Hellines have only 2-3%. Hence,
again, the extent of "Arab" admixture in Hellas is at
most ~5%. But, not all J1 in Hellines is of "Arab"
origin, since J1 predates the Arab expansion by many
thousands of years. Hence, the 5% must be reduced
further.
Haplogroup E3b cluster alpha is found in the Balkans,
but Hellas is part of the Balkans and Hellines have the
highest frequency of E3b (40-50% in the Peloponnese).
It cannot substantiate "Slavic" admixture, because it
represents the indigenous (pre-Slavic) population of
the Balkans, and not the Proto-Slavic population.
Indeed, E3b is almost absent in the northern Slavs,
which again indicates that it was mostly absent in the
Proto-Slavs.
In conclusion, Hellines may have a little Slavic ancestry, but they are NOT of Slavic origin. The replacement theory does not agree with the facts.
On the Turkish claim once again genetics assist:
Let's start off by clearing that there are a couple of topics that
contain articles and genetic maps that prove some Mongolian percentage
in modern Turks. Based on that we continue.
-------------
The most comprehensive study of Y-chromosomal diversity in Europe thus
far is Rosser et al., [1]. The human Y chromosome is passed on from
father to son. One can thus study one half of a population's ancestry
(along the paternal line) by studying the Y-chromosome. Greek
Y-chromosomes belong to haplogroups HG1, HG2, HG3, HG9, HG21 and HG26.
None of the 35 Greek Y chromosomes are of non-Caucasoid origin.
A second Y-chromosome study including Greeks have also shown similar
results. Helgason et al., [2] reports one HG16 sequence of North
Eurasian provenance in a sample of 42 Greeks (at least 97.6%
Caucasoid). To put this in perspective, eight HG16 chromosomes occur in
110 Swedes (at least 92.7% Caucasoid) and three HG16 sequences in 112
Norwegians (at least 97.3% Caucasoid) were also found. HG16 is shared
by many populations ranging from Europe to Mongolia. Its origin has
been placed by [7] in the Eastern range of its current geographical
distribution.
A third Y-chromosome study, by Malaspina et al., [3] which included a
sample of 28 continental and 83 Cretan Greeks (total sample size of
111) found no evidence of the presence of non-Caucasoid Y chromosomes
in Greeks.
A fourth Y-chromosome study, by Semino et al., [4] included 76 Greeks
and 20 Macedonian Greeks. One Eu6 lineage, corresponding to HG10/HG36
[5] is probably of East Asian origin. One Eu17 lineage corresponds to
HG 28 which is frequent in Central Asia and the Indian subcontinent
[6]. In total, admixture of 2.1% is detected (if we label HG 28 as
non-Caucasoid).
A fifth Y-chromosome study, by Weale et al., [8] included 132 Greek
students from Athens. The same haplogroups found in [1] were detected
in this study. No non-Caucasoid chromosomes were found.
The most recent and comprehensive study of Greek Y-chromosomes, by Di
Giacomo et al., [9] included 154 individuals from continental Greece
and 212 from Crete, Lesvos and Chios. In total, Greeks from thirteen
separate locations were examined, thus giving the most complete picture
of variation so far. A single haplogroup A chromosome was found (in
Lesvos) which is usually found in Africa. The remainder belonged to
haplogroups found in Caucasoid populations. The breakup (in percent) of
the haplogroups observed) based on the set of markers typed is as
follows.
P*(xR1a) R1a DE G2 I-M170 J2(DYS413≤ 18) J2*(xDYS413≤ 18) J*(xJ2) A Y*(xA,DE,G2,I,J,P)
12.8 9.8 20.2 6.6 14.8 20.2 4.9 2.7 0.3 7.7
A newer study by Semino et al. [10] has studied two samples of Greeks
of size 84 and 59 (Macedonian Greeks). The focus was on two specific
haplogroups E and J which are frequent in the Mediterranean region and
can be used to detect population movements between Europe, Africa and
the Near East. 2.4% of Greeks belong in haplogroup E-M123 and 21.4% in
E-M78. Clades of E prevalent in Northern or Sub-Saharan Africa were not
found. According to Cruciani et al. [11] most Greeks and other Balkan
people belong to a specific cluster α within haplogroup E-M78 that is
found in lower frequencies outside the Balkans and marks migrations
from the Balkan area. E-M123 and its daughter haplogroup E-M34
originated in the Near East in prehistoric times. As for haplogroup J,
most Greeks (22.8% Greeks/14.3% Macedonian Greeks) belong to J-M172 and
its subclades which is associated with Neolithic population movements.
Only 1.8%/2.2% of Macedonian Greeks/Greeks belonged to haplogroup
J-M267 which could potentially (althought not certainly) reflect more
recent Near Eastern admixture.
Thus, at present, in a total of seven studies, in which 925 Greek males
were tested, one HG16, one HG28, one HG10/HG36, and one haplogroup A
chromosomes have been found, for a total of 0.4% possible non-Caucasoid
contribution to the modern Greek male gene pool. Additionally, the
latest studies [9, 10] with a more refined version of the Y chromosome
phylogeny indicate that influences from the Near East and North Africa
in historical times are unlikely (perhaps in the order of ~2%).
Additionally, Y chromosome haplogroup R1a which is very frequent in
Slavic populations (>50%) is found in only around 9.8% of Greeks,
and is also found at comparable frequencies further East (10.8% in
Iraq; Al-Zahery et al. [12]) indicating that its presence in Greece
need not be associated with medieval intrusions by Slavic speakers. The
emerging picture of Y chromosome variation in Greece indicates genetic
continuity, with slight influences from neighboring Caucasoid regions
and virtually no influence from non-Caucasoids.
Future studies with larger samples and more detailed founder analyses
will allow us to obtain a better pictures of Y-chromosome variation in
Greece, Europe and the world at large. At present, it appears that
modern Europeans share many of the haplogroups, while there is also
geographic structure in the distribution. With the exception of the
Northeast corner of Europe, all other European populations have very
small traces of extra-Caucasoid genetic input(a).
[1] Rosser et al. (2000) European Y-Chromosome Diversity. Am J Hum Genet 67:1526-1543
[2] Helgason et al. (2000) Ancestry of Icelandic Y Chromosomes. Am J Hum Genet 67:697-717
[3] Malaspina et al. (2000) Patterns of male-specific inter-population
divergence in Europe, West Asia and North Africa. Ann Hum Genet
64:395-412
[4] Semino et al. (2000) The genetic legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective
[5] Zerjal et al. (2002) Y-Chromosomal Insights into Central Asia. Am J Hum Genet 71:466-482
[6] Qamar et al. (2002) Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in Pakistan. Am J Hum Genet 70:1107-1124
[7] Zerjal et al. (1997) Genetic relationships of Asians and Northern
Europeans, revealed by Y-chromosomal DNA analysis. Am J Hum Genet
60:11741183
[8] Weale et al. (2001) Armenian Y chromosome haplotypes reveal strong
regional structure within a single ethno-national group. Hum Genet 109:
659-674
[9] Di Giacomo et al. (2003) Clinal Patterns of human Y chromosomal
diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and
founder effects. Mol Phyl Evol 28:387-395
[10] Semino et al. (2004) Origin, Diffusion, and Differentiation of
Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of
Europe and Later Migratory Events in the Mediterranean Area. Am J Hum
Genet (to appear)
[11] Cruciani et al. (2004) Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b
(E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out
Of Africa. Am J Hum Genet (to appear)
[12] Al-Zahery et al. (2003) Y-chromosome and mtDNA polymorphisms in
Iraq, a crossroad of the early human dispersal and of post-Neolithic
migrations Mol Phyl Evol 28:458-472
And a bit of anthropology:
J. Lawrence Angel sorted Greek skeletal tendencies into six arbitrary
morphological types, including several sub-varieties. These were not
“races,” but rather [1]:
“Types are entirely aribitrary creations from sorting of individuals.
Genetically determined traits will recombine and re-form in each new
generation largely at random so that types cannot express these new
individualities adequately, only schematically. At best they give a
preliminary overview of change.”
Angel studied skeletal material from the Paleolithic to modern times,
and participated in examinations of skeletal material throughout the
East Mediterranean.
With respect to Greece, he found that the
morphological types already established in the third millennium BC, if
not before that, persisted in all subsequent ages.
Thus, he emphasized
the racial continuity of Greeks, stating epigrammatically [2]:
“Racial continuity in Greece is striking.”
1)Angel, J. Lawrence, in Mylonas, George E., 1972-1973, Ο ταφικός κύκλος V των Μυκηνών, Εθνική Αρχαιολογική Εταιρεία, Athens
2)Angel, J. Lawrence, 1944, A racial analysis of the ancient Greeks: An
essay on the use of morphological types, American Journal of Physical
Anthropology
Same source as above.