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Arn de Gothia
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Topic: think you can beat Alexander? Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 10:43 |
Ok so lets say you are Dharius (not sure how to spell his name) at
Gaugamela and you command the persian army to fight Alexander.
What would you have done and do you think you could have beaten him?
Me and two of my mates went on talking about his for hours hehe.
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Arn de Gothia
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Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 10:56 |
might as well add my way to defeat him.
me and my mates all agreed that the only way to defeat him is to make him attack and stay on the defensive.
Seeing as Alexanders army is mainly based on phalanxes once archers
have to do alot of work. First mass all cavarly behind your army, all
archers infront and spread out the huge mob of infantry in a line with
the elite guards on the right, behind the levies.
Keep harrasing Alexander untill he has to move against you. Attacking
straight on is suicide so the slowmoving phalanx must be bombarded with
as much arrows as possible. As far as I know, Alexander hardly had any
archers right?
Anyway, to break the phalanx you have to outflank it so once the
phalanx is close, move the army backwards in the same speed as the
enemy and once Alexander attack with cavalry, you send all your horse
on your left and then the whole army moves right and alittle forward so
the phalanx only gets attacked on its left part and then the elite
guards swing around on your right flank.
My friend, a huge military nerd just said that Alexander would send
cav. on both flanks but whole issue then brakes down to, would
Alexanders cav. be able to win on both flanks if its divided into two
groups?
anyway, what do you all think?
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Belisarius
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Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 12:46 |
I will have to disagree with your analysis. It is suicide to go line
for line with the phalanx, especially Alexander's phalanx. As for
archers, it is true he had more slingers than archers, but he did have
many archers. To move the army backwards as you suggest would require a
great deal of discipline. This is very hard to do when most of the
Persian army is composed of levies.
I always believed Hannibal's tactics could have won Gaugamela. Use your
superior cavalry to draw Alexander and his cavalry away from the
battle. I believe that the Persians had 40,000 to Alexander's 7,000,
more than enough to make this work. Arrange your line with the poorest
quality infantry in the center, the heavy and elite units on the
flanks. When the lines meet, the center will fold and the flanks will
envelop the phalanx. Alexander will return after undoubtedly wiping out
the Persian cavalry somehow to find his infantry wiped out to the man,
and would be forced to withdraw.
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 20:50 |
I quite like what Caesar did at Pharsalus. Tempt Alexander into attacking your cavalry with his own (which would include Alexander himself). Behind this screen of cavalry position some of your best infantry and when your cavalry breaks the infantry can smash into Alexander and his companions, who now have no momentum owing to them being engaged in fighting. While your other forces distract the phalanx for just that little while your entrapment of Alexander and his main punching force destroy them, the legendary leader and his offensive arm are destroyed. Lacking their offensive arm, unable to protect their flanks and rear, and heavily demoralized by the loss of their leader, the phallanx can be readily encircled and crushed.
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Arn de Gothia
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Posted: 29-Jul-2005 at 04:42 |
agreed, I guess it is to hard to move such an army backwards.... if it
was possible tho, it would be a perfect tactic against phalanxes.
As for the line to line fight, I didnt really mean to attack alexander
straight on at his phalanxes but to move stright forward and right so
the army swings around to the right and incircles the left flank of
alexander. And where ever Alexander chooses to use his cavalry you have
all your cavalry ready in the back.
If Alexanders cav. doesn move, you just support the swing to the right and come stright at him.
My weaknes would be my left flank wich have to be very mobile and just
move with the right flank in the swing or just keep the
greeks/macedonians bussy.
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Belisarius
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Posted: 29-Jul-2005 at 14:18 |
I see what you mean. You would try to use something of a sickle tactic?
You would have an extremely difficult time doing this against
Alexander's phalanx, however. His phalanx was much more mobile and
responsive than the phalanx of the diadochi. Come to think of it, you
would have trouble using any tactic against Alexander's phalanx.
I would strongly advise against keeping your cavalry in the back. The
Persian army numbered in the hundred thousands and keeping the cavalry
in the back would mean that you would waste preicous minutes and
stamina riding around the infantry. Perhaps keep them on flanks?
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 29-Jul-2005 at 21:50 |
The phallanx always had the weakness of having incredibly long pikes
with laughably small daggers for close combat should the pike barrier
fail.
Launching a massive attack on one sector of the phallanx to cause it to
direct its efforts in stopping that may be one way of opening up a gap
in the pike wall, into which close combat soldiers could rush and make
short work of the helpless phalangites. Again I would advise luring the
companion cavalry into a trap and destroying them first, so as to give
the Persian army total mobility and flexibility in what sectors of the
phallanx it can attack.
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Belisarius
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Posted: 30-Jul-2005 at 01:53 |
I believe that the individual phalangite soldier was defended by a
small buckler. A buckler, which I believe is strapped to the arm, is
effective in fending off arrows, but the purpose of this is somewhat
diminished as both hands were used to hold the sarissa. It is almost
useless in melee combat. Also, the military tradition started by Philip
of Macedon had only the first line of the phalangites fully armored,
the rest barely or not at all. The phalanx was really in trouble when
not heavily supported by other troop types.
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poirot
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Posted: 30-Jul-2005 at 04:55 |
Here is my strategy:
Send an assassin to Alexander's camp and end your woes.
Never fails!
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AAAAAAAAAA
"The crisis of yesterday is the joke of tomorrow.� ~ HG Wells
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Belisarius
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Posted: 30-Jul-2005 at 11:28 |
You just killed all of our fun, poirot.
An assassin may end Alexander's threat, but then again, there were many
capable generals in Alexander's retinue that would have taken over.
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poirot
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Posted: 30-Jul-2005 at 21:36 |
LOL I know... apologies
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AAAAAAAAAA
"The crisis of yesterday is the joke of tomorrow.� ~ HG Wells
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Arn de Gothia
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Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 12:57 |
Just played some RTW and came to think, did the persians have any light cavalry archers?
If so, why not keep all footmen far far away and send cav. to keep
harras Alexander for as long as possible, that should reduce the greek
forces a bit.
Allso, by forcing Alexander to march in battle-formation for a long
long time should atleast put his non-elites in chaos enough to harm.
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Belisarius
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Posted: 07-Aug-2005 at 18:47 |
The 'Persians' per se of the Achaemenid Empire did not have the cavalry
tradition of later years. They took advantage of their hearty
population for the benefit of their mass levy armies to create very
large armies of light infantry. Whatever special cavalry units they had
were native-raised forces of certain satrapies. It was only after they
were so easily conquered by the heavy infantry of the Macedonians that
they realized the effectiveness of cavalry.
If they had cavalry archers, I still do not think they would be
effective against Alexander. His marksmen could easily pick them off,
and no army, however immobile, stays still to take heavy bombardment
long enough for a serious dent in their numbers. Unless of course, the
number of archers greatly exceed the number of targets, then it would
only take a few volleys. Lastly, I doubt any cavalry force of the time
could stand up to, or escape eradication for long, by Alexander's
Companion Cavalry.
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rider
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Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 02:11 |
I believe that it would be possible, just take some forces hiding and wait for the phalanx to outcircle you men and then ambush the other flank which would be destroyed in seconds. And for the last let your cavalry kill of the Companions and then charge straightly into the phalangites from the back.
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strategos
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Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 02:23 |
i know the some hoplites before alexander had the ability to charge the last 100 meters or so into enemy lines. Could alexanders phallanx do the same, because this run would help lessen the ability to flank the army in my opinionm.
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Belisarius
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Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 02:32 |
I believe it is a Spartan tactic to 'stutter march' and then charge the last 100 meters.
The phalanx could theoretically do something similar, but you would
need some extremely well-trained and naturally gifted phalangites.
I agree with rider. Alexander can not win the battle with just his
Companions, regardless of how good they are. Destroy the infantry, and
you can at least force Alexander to withdraw.
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