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Putty19
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Topic: Ancient Jews were Kurds Posted: 14-Apr-2011 at 23:28 |
Originally posted by Baal Melqart
We all agree that Assyrians are Semites and speak a Semitic language. What we don't agree with is your statement about the language evolving in Arabia which is ridiculous at best. Assyrian was closer to Phoenician/Hebrew so they are Semites of the Levant who also, as Putty said, mixed with eastern peoples like the Akkadians. The Arabic language evolved separately from the south of the peninsula.
I also disgaree with your claim that Armenians are a mix of Assyrians and Gypsies.
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Baal, take it from me, it's a waste of time to discuss anything with this guy, he's a joke. Btw, that whole haplogroup chart he posted comes from Eupedia.com, for those that don't know, this website uses data with no proper references, in other words they just make up random numbers, this has been actually brought up in genetic forums and in my opinion, shows that their work tends to be shifted toward a racist view.
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MediaWarLord
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Posted: 14-Apr-2011 at 23:39 |
Originally posted by Baal Melqart
We all agree that Assyrians are Semites and speak a Semitic language. What we don't agree with is your statement about the language evolving in Arabia which is ridiculous at best. Assyrian was closer to Phoenician/Hebrew so they are Semites of the Levant who also, as Putty said, mixed with eastern peoples like the Akkadians. The Arabic language evolved separately from the south of the peninsula.
I also disgaree with your claim that Armenians are a mix of Assyrians and Gypsies.
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I don't know where Aramaic has been evolved, but definitely NOT in Kurdistan or the northern part of the Mesopotamia.
I never said that Armenians are Assyrians. Armenians are descendants of Urartu (Hurrian people) who later mixed with the Lom gypsies.
But this topic is about Jews and Kurds and not about other people.
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Baal Melqart
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Posted: 29-Apr-2011 at 18:39 |
I just don't understand why you are saying that Ancient Kurds were of Hurrian descent. There is no historical or cultural proof for that. As far as I am concerned, Kurds are just an off-shoot of Iranian tribes that settled in the area. I think it is doubtful that they existed there before the Assyrians as you claim because then they would have formed some kind of notable civilization just like the Akkadians, Assyrians or Babylonians. The fact that we do not know much about when they arrived in the area stresses that they arrived after the Assyrians were dominant. What circumstances led to their arrival in the area and what was their relationship with their neighbours is in my opinion a lot more interesting than trying to prove that they have been in Kurdistan since before 3000 BC.
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Timidi mater non flet
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MediaWarLord
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Posted: 29-Apr-2011 at 19:43 |
Before the Assyrians Kurdistan was inhabited by the Hurrians (Lulu, Kassites, Guti etc.) - the proto-Kurdish tribes -. Some modern Kurdish cities like Arraphkha (Kirkuk) were founded by the Hurrians. Kirkuk was capital of Kingdom of Gutium. Then these places came under the Mitanni domination, other proto-Kurdish tribe. Assyrians attacked those proto-Kurds from the south and waged a criminal campaign against the proto-Kurds. With their violent laws they treated proto-Kurds as non-human creatures. Then some other proto-Kurds, the Medes, from the not invaded Zagros territories of Kurdistan came to western Kurdistan and helped their kinsmen and liberated them. You can see the Medes as ancient Kurds from the other province. All those proto-Kurds bundled their power and destroyed the Assyrian capital and punished those barbaric and sadistic ancient Assyrians for what they did to the ancient Kurds.
Violence and aggression was part of the ancient Assyrian culture. Everyone who uses violence and aggression eventually will face a very violent destruction. What goes around comes around.
It's genetically proven that Kurds are native to their homeland! So I believe that Lulu, Kassites, Guti, Mitanni, Medes were all different tribes, but belonged to the same ethnic group of people.
Edited by MediaWarLord - 30-Apr-2011 at 08:47
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MediaWarLord
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Posted: 29-Apr-2011 at 20:01 |
Gutians were Hurrian people. Kurdish and other scholars identify modern Kurds partly as descendants of the ancient Guti.
Eric Jensen (1996) states: "The thirty million Kurds of the Middle East have lived in Kurdistan before record of modern history was kept.
The very first mention of the Kurds in history was about 3,000 BC, under the name Gutium, as they fought the Sumerians (Spieser). Later around 800 BC, the Indo-European Median tribes settled in the Zagros mountain region and coalesced with the Gutiums, and thus the modern Kurds speak a language related to Aryan languages (Morris).""The land of Guti answers in substance, and perhaps also in name, to the modern Kurdistan. According to Sayce the name Kurd is derived from the Babylonian quradu, 'a warrior,' a word which was borrowed by the people of Van. In the forms of 'khuradi' and 'quradu' it is given as the equivalent of 'gut' in an inscription published by Rawlinson. 'Gut' or 'Guti,' we are told, means a 'bull' in the primitive language of Chaldea, and the name Gutium, used by this early people, was borrowed from a Semitic language (probably Babylonian) which possessed the case-ending in 'um.'" (Howorth 1901, ftn. p.32)"The Kurds are a native, non-Arab people who have lived in the Middle East for thousands of years. Their name derives from the ancient Guti (Guti-Gurti-Kurdi), conquerors of Babylon. They were the non-Semitic Hurrians of Mesopotamia and the Medes of Persian history. Their home covers mountainous regions now part of Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and other countries as well. But the heartland of ancient Gutium, the domain of later autonomous Kurdish mirs, had been in what is now-- thanks to the British-- Arab Iraq." (Honigman 2003)
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Edited by MediaWarLord - 30-Apr-2011 at 08:24
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MediaWarLord
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Posted: 29-Apr-2011 at 20:11 |
In Guti we Trust.
The Gutis were certainly not the only Hurrian-speaking peoples who overflowed the Kurdish mountains into Mesopotamia, but just one of them.
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Guti and other Hurrian (proto-Kurdish) people were in Kurdistan much earlier than the Assyrians.
Edited by MediaWarLord - 29-Apr-2011 at 20:13
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Putty19
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Posted: 30-Apr-2011 at 13:34 |
Baal, are you seriously continuing this discussion with this person? Can't you see his idiotic claims already? If you can't see that he's a joke already I don't know what to tell you, the whole thing seems like comedy show to me, in fact I feel really ashamed and embarrassed that I went back and forth trying to actually discuss with him
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MediaWarLord
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Posted: 30-Apr-2011 at 14:19 |
You're more ridiculous and naïve than I am. Your kind is still thinking that you're related to the ancient Assyrians who lived 2500 years ago. Modern Assyrians are so much mixed with other people (Turks, Kurds, Arabs, Armenians), that they can be whoever they want. If Assyrians are going to consider themselves as Turkmen everybody would believe them. If they say they're Arabs, nobody will deny that too. And if they say they're Kurds. a lot people will say they're right. Once I saw an Assyrians wedding here in Europe and they played Kurdish music and danced Kurdish dances. With other words, modern Assyrians don't know who they are and have a very serious identity crisis. They're a product of all people in the region. You are very crazy, very radical, very lost in space!
Edited by MediaWarLord - 30-Apr-2011 at 14:32
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MediaWarLord
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Posted: 30-Apr-2011 at 14:20 |
If you can't counter my arguments don't bother to troll this topic, please.
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Putty19
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Posted: 30-Apr-2011 at 18:05 |
Arguments? What arguments? If you call these stupid remarks arguments, then Massoud Barzani is Michael Jordan's uncle, whatever you say kaka
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MediaWarLord
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Posted: 30-Apr-2011 at 18:53 |
Originally posted by Putty19
Arguments? What arguments? If you call these stupid remarks arguments, then Massoud Barzani is Michael Jordan's uncle, whatever you say kaka |
There's a very good middle eastern (Arabic or Kurdish?) proverb that's very applicable to you.
The dogs bark but the caravan moves on.
Edited by MediaWarLord - 30-Apr-2011 at 18:55
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Putty19
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Posted: 01-May-2011 at 02:22 |
Originally posted by MediaWarLord
Originally posted by Putty19
Arguments? What arguments? If you call these stupid remarks arguments, then Massoud Barzani is Michael Jordan's uncle, whatever you say kaka | There's a very good middle eastern (Arabic or Kurdish?) proverb that's very applicable to you.
The dogs bark but the caravan moves on. |
That's a good proverb, I guess I should ride on that caravan while you continue barking your funny non sense.
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medenaywe
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Posted: 01-May-2011 at 02:43 |
no need for "but here"!Dogs are barking,caravan moves on!Media no need for showing biceps/triceps here!
In the beginning were three types of people:white,yellow and black.Was
this citation of Thucydides, Herodotus or Plutarch could not find
googling.As i said they were separated,by religion and distances,easy would have been ruled.Thats the main principle of All Empires,except this one !Check how the same with Putty you are first,than different!You would be surprised!
Edited by medenaywe - 01-May-2011 at 02:47
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 01-May-2011 at 03:18 |
Originally posted by Putty19
Baal, are you seriously continuing this discussion with this person? Can't you see his idiotic claims already? If you can't see that he's a joke already I don't know what to tell you, the whole thing seems like comedy show to me, in fact I feel really ashamed and embarrassed that I went back and forth trying to actually discuss with him
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Fine. At this point you made your point. No need to carry on and make it personal. You don't have to agree and you don't have to respond. And there's no need to be borderline insultive. Because in point of fact; the above is near trolling and your use of the phrases "stupid remarks" "idiotic" and "caca etc...are borderline flamming....and "he's a joke"..isn't going to cut it. So ease back. MWL ease off the desire to respond in kind....non-productive. Bottom line.... all concerned... step back and breathe. Differences in evidence and differences in sources and their interpretation are always a factor and are to be expected. No one has a monopoly on the veracity of the arguements being presented or countered. Ntl.. communication is better served when it's civil..so everybody keep it that way. Civil. CV
Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 01-May-2011 at 04:03
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Baal Melqart
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Posted: 01-May-2011 at 13:20 |
Originally posted by MediaWarLord
You're more ridiculous and naïve than I am. Your kind is still thinking that you're related to the ancient Assyrians who lived 2500 years ago. Modern Assyrians are so much mixed with other people (Turks, Kurds, Arabs, Armenians), that they can be whoever they want. If Assyrians are going to consider themselves as Turkmen everybody would believe them.If they say they're Arabs, nobody will deny that too.And if they say they're Kurds. a lot people will say they're right. Once I saw an Assyrians wedding here in Europe and they played Kurdish music and danced Kurdish dances. With other words, modern Assyrians don't know who they are and have a very serious identity crisis. They're a product of all people in the region. You are very crazy, very radical, very lost in space!
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You seem quite biased against Assyrians. Either way they don't necessarily have much of a link to the ancient Assyrians, it's just a misnomer and they are usually referred to instead as Syriacs, not Assyrians. According to you Kurds come from the ancient Gutians, Kassites and Medians. I don't necessarily disagree with that although there is no evidence supporting it. yet most of us would still agree that Kurds are Iranic people and that seems to strengthen the hypothesis that they are in fact related to the Gutians and Kassites...etc. Yet what you do not understand is that just because the Gutians are ancestors of the Kurds (so to speak), they did not necessarily refer to themselves as such. What you have to prove is that Kurds, as a distinct people, existed in that era or were in fact a part of these Hurrian tribes. It does not suffice to say that they are genetically linked to these peoples. Going back to the topic, how are Kurds related to Jews if they come from the Zagros mountains? Correct me if I am wrong but the Hurrian invasion was exclusive to Mesopotamia and had absolutely no effect on the Levant.
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Timidi mater non flet
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MediaWarLord
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Posted: 01-May-2011 at 17:31 |
I don't know. And to be honest I don't care. Jews (like many other people) are trying to link them to Kurdistan and not vice versa.
It's not necessary that some people from the northern Mesopotamia conquered some land in the south. Maybe we're talking about peacefully migrations and not invasions or something like that. Maybe some Hurrian people from Kurdistan migrated into the southern lands in peace. And maybe that didn't happen at one point in the past but in a short or long period of time.
Edited by MediaWarLord - 01-May-2011 at 19:46
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Rûm
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Posted: 02-May-2011 at 08:49 |
Originally posted by MediaWarLord
Originally posted by Putty19
Arguments? What arguments? If you call these stupid remarks arguments, then Massoud Barzani is Michael Jordan's uncle, whatever you say kaka | There's a very good middle eastern (Arabic or Kurdish?) proverb that's very applicable to you.
The dogs bark but the caravan moves on. |
its not arabic or kurdish (lol) proverb but Turkish original version is - İt ürür, kervan yürür.
- Literal translation: Dogs bark but caravan still moves on.
- Meaning: Great achievements can't be prevented by insignificant people.
most of Turkish proverbs end with rhyme this is one of them
p.s. el yarrağıyla gerdeğe girmeye ne meraklısınız amk! git kendi atasözlerini (varsa tabi) yaz yoksa otur oturduğun yerde.
Edited by Rûm - 02-May-2011 at 08:53
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MediaWarLord
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Posted: 02-May-2011 at 09:05 |
Originally posted by Rûm
Originally posted by MediaWarLord
Originally posted by Putty19
Arguments? What arguments? If you call these stupid remarks arguments, then Massoud Barzani is Michael Jordan's uncle, whatever you say kaka | There's a very good middle eastern (Arabic or Kurdish?) proverb that's very applicable to you.
The dogs bark but the caravan moves on. | its not arabic or kurdish (lol) proverb but Turkish
original version is
- İt ürür, kervan yürür.
- Literal translation: Dogs bark but caravan still moves on.
- Meaning: Great achievements can't be prevented by insignificant people.
most of Turkish proverbs end with rhyme this is one of them
p.s. el yarrağıyla gerdeğe girmeye ne meraklısınız amk! git kendi atasözlerini (varsa tabi) yaz yoksa otur oturduğun yerde.
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Yes, I think you're right. Great proverb, very wise. I like it very much. Thank you for the correction.
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Baal Melqart
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Posted: 02-May-2011 at 19:31 |
Really, I always thought it was an arabic proverb, guess I was wrong.
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Timidi mater non flet
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Putty19
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Posted: 02-May-2011 at 21:03 |
Originally posted by Baal Melqart
You seem quite biased against Assyrians. Either way they don't necessarily have much of a link to the ancient Assyrians, it's just a misnomer and they are usually referred to instead as Syriacs, not Assyrians. |
Syriac actually means Syrian, it changed to Syriac when the Arab country of Syria came to rise so there's no confusion, and one more thing, Syrian comes from Assyrian, we call ourselves Suraye today which means "Syrians", and historical records confirm that Sur (Syria) is Ashur (Assyria), this is now the accepted theory among the modern scholars since the Çineköy inscription was found which clearly translates the word "Sur" in the Luwian language to "Ashur" in the Phoenician language: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87inek%C3%B6y_inscription Not to mention that in our language, we spell the word "Suraya" which means Syrian with an Alaph in the beginning that is silent, in other words the original word used to be "Assuraya" meaning Assyrian.
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