QuoteReplyTopic: Russia's attack disproportionate Posted: 13-Aug-2008 at 23:28
Originally posted by pikeshot1600
Originally posted by Seko
The gloves are off and pandora's box has opened. Tem, you say what others hold back. A stellar veiwpoint with gumption. Your statement is what most of us in the west likely believe yet are to kind to mention. To take the Sarmatian's side we still do paint a bad picture of Russia even though they are no longer the Soviet Union. But hey, they are Russia, fair game. How does she get out of this label and the concept we have of her?
Having made the previous post about the Czar, etc., I feel it is best to state that Russia is acting in her interests, and can be expected to do so. Russia has in the past been very tough on opposition on her own borders, and it has worked in the past, so why not now?
Yes, Russia is tough on her foes and we should be used to the Bear acting in her own interests. The notion of justification is always in the eye of the beholder. The winner has the stamp of approval.
yes exactly, it took some time but it has finally been said.
does anyone really believe Russia will be the good neighbour ever? talks about cooperation are a good laugh. and then they complain about their former puppets becomming anti-Russian . as if that comes out of the blue. anyways does anyone here really believe any of the current USA puppets would become anti-american after the US ceases to exist as a superpower for whatever reason? the answer is no, simply because USA treated and treats is puppets well, something the USSR/Russia never did, and then they wonder why even countries like Ukraine co-operate with Poland and the west in general over Russia.
Of course USSR treated some of its puppets well. But Poland, Baltic states and some other countries are really bad examples. Because of the Stalinist legacy. But to claim that Russia now is Stalinist is the same saying that modern Germany is Nazist.
Well and Russia does have good relations now with some countries which before had very bad experience with it. Take Finland for example. Very good relations, although Finns suffered from the Soviet aggression; their relations even with the Soviets after WWII have been friendly and mutually beneficial and still now they remain.
You should ask some Vietnamese, North Koreans, Cubans a lot of Africans, Mongols etc. They would be very happy to talk about the times when they were "Soviet puppets."Because the USSR was really pumping huge money in these countries, created infrustructure, education, medical system there, virtually helped to create national statehood for many undeveloped countries and in many instances didn't get much for itself out of it.
Also ask other Koreans and Japanese about what they think about the American friendship and "protection".
About Ukraine, this country is on the edge of collapse and it treats Russia not very good only because of the current government. And this government can easily be changed
Originally posted by Temujin
well Anton said the USSR gave Poland many territories in the West after ww2. he didn't mentioned that the USSR first annexed East Poland herself! he said that Hungary amongst others profited from the USSR, now thats the explanation for all those tanks in Budapest 1956! Russia wants co-operation with the USA? the USSR even fell out with its comrade China, then how on earth do they imagine to co-operate with a country on another continent?
Why do you compare USSR again. Russia now is not the USSR, OK. This is the thing I'm talking about don't make Russia the USSR.
And my whole point is that you shouldn't look at the past. Otherwise Poland should always hate Germany and Germany hate France and England and so on...
My whole point is that the things have changed. Russia isn't looking for expansion any more. But it's treated as somekind of a defeated power.
No country would like such a humiliation. Not even the most democratic one in the past.
Originally posted by Temujin
so bottom line, why does Russia nowadays gets politically isolated? because it doesn't know how to treat its puppets well and it created this situation herself, so yes, Russia is bad because Russia is always bad, or did US tanks ever roll through the streets of any of its puppets capitals?
As I said USSR treated some of its puppets really well. And yes American tanks roled through their puppets' capitals many times. Have you heard about the city called Saigon for example.
Originally posted by Temujin
people complain Russia hasn't yet entered the 21st century, from what i see Russia isn't even in the 20th century, or do they still maintain they have some sort of influence on the Balkans/Serbia (hello ww1)?
I don't undestand what you said here? Russia isn't even in the 20th century? What you write doesn't make sense, sorry. In the 19th century Russia complitely dominated half of Eastern Europe in the 20th century its domination became even stronger.
But now where is the western border of Russia? It was hardly able to subdue its own breakaway province. So, don't make a supernatural boggy out of it.
Have you actually meet many Russian people in your life? Have you tried to visit Russia talk to its people, witness by yourself what is going on there?
If you have a chance, please do. Because otherwise your posts look like shortsighted brainwash . But I can't blame you for that, because how can you know for sure what's going on if you don't have the first hand experience.
does anyone really believe Russia will be the good neighbour ever? talks about cooperation are a good laugh.
It is quite clear that Russia can come to an understanding with the Western Europeans, Turkey and Iran, and all can balance each other's imperialisms out in Europe. Unfortunately, USA is a rabid dog that keeps attacking Russia and undermining the world peace.
anyways does anyone here really believe any of the current USA puppets would become anti-american after the US ceases to exist as a superpower for whatever reason? the answer is no, simply because USA treated and treats is puppets well, something the USSR/Russia never did, and then they wonder why even countries like Ukraine co-operate with Poland and the west in general over Russia.
What a load of garbage. Go and ask how the people feel about America in Turkey and other American puppet states in the Middle East, and hear what the answer is even when your beloved masters are still the only superpower. Ask Iranians how they feel, remember they were an American satellite before the revolution in 1979. Ask Chileans, search Penguin's posts on American aggression in Latin America on this very site. Ask the Vietnamese in Vietnam. Ask Haitians, Panamanians, Guatemalans, Nicaraguans, Cubanese, ask Mexicans. Ask South African blacks about how they feel about the US support to Apartheid while USSR was supporting Mandela. Hell, ask the French, even your fellow Germans (well, maybe not your kamaraden). I was in Germany when Sep 11 happened, the building was collapsing, I said 'that was bad many people must have died in there', a regular German guy (not political in any way) in my office replied 'good riddance, the Amis (German derogatory term for American, like yank) were asking for it'...
So no, US did not treat its satellites well. It terrorised many. For every Soviet foreign intervention during the Cold war there are at least two direct and at least two more indirect American interventions.
well Anton said the USSR gave Poland many territories in the West after ww2. he didn't mentioned that the USSR first annexed East Poland herself! he said that Hungary amongst others profited from the USSR, now thats the explanation for all those tanks in Budapest 1956!
Yes, Russia is imperialist, so was the USSR after Lenin. However, compared to the West, they are clearly the lesser evil, absolute amateurs, always on the defensive.
Russia wants co-operation with the USA?
Russia wants what everyone else wants, secure borders. However, the word 'cooperation' does not exist in the Yankee dictionary. The only language they understand is spoken by guns. It is also visible in their culture if you watch their films, they solve all problems by shooting them. What US wants is to make Russia do what it tells them, like it did under Yeltsin. A clown who was celebrated in the West as a hero of democracy (he ordered tanks to the Duma) while Putin (who futhered the interests of his own country rather than those of Wall Street) is declared the the new Hitler.
so bottom line, why does Russia nowadays gets politically isolated?
Russia isn't isolated. You are deluded or duped into believing this, but it is quite normal since the Western people are notorious for believing that the world consists only of them. Western art forms are 'universal', Western law is 'natural law', etc. etc.
Turkish Prime minister was in Moscow recently. China and Russia have good relations. India has good relations with them. Even EU states were talking to the Russians to arrange the cease fire.
because it doesn't know how to treat its puppets well and it created this situation herself, so yes, Russia is bad because Russia is always bad, or did US tanks ever roll through the streets of any of its puppets capitals?
This is ignorance beyond belief, or a lame propaganda attempt. US tanks rolled through the streets of Haiti, Guatemala, Philipinnes, Panama, Grenada, Dominican Republic, South Vietnam, South Korea just from the top of my head. Maybe for you these don't count because the people they killed there are not white but merely untermenschen unlike the Czechs or Hungarians?
Of course the US is rich unlike Russia, and they usually just buy the local elite to do the dirty jobs. I won't write the list of countries they intervened through proxy here, since it would make the post a few pages longer. IIRC, the total is around 80 since 1945.
people complain Russia hasn't yet entered the 21st century, from what i see Russia isn't even in the 20th century, or do they still maintain they have some sort of influence on the Balkans/Serbia (hello ww1)?
Russia is imperialist, and it sure did impose things they did not like on some eastern Europeans. And surely the Eastern Europeans have the right to be independent. But they are not independent, they are American puppets. The important things is, unlike the US Russia is weak. It can be contained by independent powers. The danger it poses to the world is miniscule compared to the danger posed by the West.
Those condemning Russia should first tell us why the f**k does NATO still exist today (as it is supposed to be an anti-Warsaw pact organisation)? What the f**k is NATO doing in the ex-Soviet Caucasus? What the f**k are the Americans doing installing missiles in so-called 'independent' countries such as Poland? What the f**k is SStonia doing in NATO? What the f**k is Kosovo other than some invented country to accomodate a huge US airbase? What the f**k is the West doing in the Middle East?
The answer is, the West has been expanding like Hitler did in Eastern Europe, led by the rabid neocon dogs, but as observed here (actually repeated from the Guardian article) no great power retreats forever. In this war Russia regained its great power status, by checking Western expansion.
Of course the Westerners (and their East European serfs) started whining immediately of 'Russian aggression', of 'sub-human slavic hordes', of 'disproportionate response'... As if Iraq was self defence, as if Israel's destruction of Lebanon was proportionate (the West blocked the UN ceasefire, allowing the Israel's bombardment to continue)... I say if it takes this to remove the rabid Western imperialists out of the Caucasus, so let it be.
I recall a saying something like: "When the Czar of all the Russias, the commander of 3,000,000 foot guards, horse guards, cossacks and mujiks starts to talk of peace, it is time for decent people to look to their guns."
And what shall decent people do when the President of the United States, who spends more on military than rest of the world put together, who invades a new country every few years, who openly declares that his goal is 'full spectrum dominance' of the world speaks of peace, of democracy, of freedom?
I think Russians are too light on you. Even the Soviets were. If USSR were like the US, we would be living in the Mad Max world now.
As a citizen of so called "American puppet state" i must admit I feel pretty well. I can also recommend such occupation to other who would like to follow.
Of course USSR treated some of its puppets well. But Poland, Baltic states and some other countries are really bad examples. Because of the Stalinist legacy. But to claim that Russia now is Stalinist is the same saying that modern Germany is Nazist.
i didn't said that but Poland particularly already rebelled to Czarist Russia. why is it a bad example? because it was one of those puppets who dared to stood up against the big brother?
Well and Russia does have good relations now with some countries which before had very bad experience with it. Take Finland for example. Very good relations, although Finns suffered from the Soviet aggression; their relations even with the Soviets after WWII have been friendly and mutually beneficial and still now they remain.
Finland wasn't a puppet since Czarist days and Finland enjoyed a good status under the Czars, notably better than under the Swedes. Finland was lucky that it won its own Civil Wars vs the Reds.
You should ask some Vietnamese, North Koreans, Cubans a lot of Africans, Mongols etc. They would be very happy to talk about the times when they were "Soviet puppets."Because the USSR was really pumping huge money in these countries, created infrustructure, education, medical system there, virtually helped to create national statehood for many undeveloped countries and in many instances didn't get much for itself out of it.
none of those countries were under direct control from Moscow, so naturally they were lucky. i mean even Albania fell out with the Soviets over the China issue. except for Mongolia of course. but Mongolians can't be happy about Soviet times when all their mosnatries have been destroyed and monks killed.
Also ask other Koreans and Japanese about what they think about the American friendship and "protection".
About Ukraine, this country is on the edge of collapse and it treats Russia not very good only because of the current government. And this government can easily be changed
Japanese readily surrendered to the USA to keep their emperor and prevent becoming another Soviet puppet. couple of days ago they publicly remembered the bomb droppings of Hiroshima & Nagasaki, but nowadays Katyn is still an issue vs Poland and Russia.
if Ukraine collapses or not has yet to turn out. as someone else said, sicne 10 years people say the US will crumble, the eats will rise blabla, nothign of that happened as of now and there are no signs it will change. the industry in China is still owned by the west and even though the US struggles economcially theres no black friday to be expected anytime soon.
Why do you compare USSR again. Russia now is not the USSR, OK. This is the thing I'm talking about don't make Russia the USSR.
USSR is Russia, just because some other countries were added doesn't mean the Soviets were some people from outer states. Russia was by large and far the USSR plus annexed republics. i mean is the 3. Reich not Germany just because it had half of Czechoslovakia and half of Poland in addition? but there's a difference between Germany and Russia, the 3. Reich was ended by foreign power and actually two new German states were founded by its masters in the aftermath unlike the USSR which just released its annexed republics and didn't radically changed overnight.
And my whole point is that you shouldn't look at the past. Otherwise Poland should always hate Germany and Germany hate France and England and so on...
no one prevents them from doing so but apparently Poland hates Russia more than Germany which surprises me more than you for sure!
My whole point is that the things have changed. Russia isn't looking for expansion any more. But it's treated as somekind of a defeated power.
yes, because IT IS. should Germany not have accepted defeat in 1945 and fought until extinction? or the Japanese? do you want Russia to fight until extinction?
No country would like such a humiliation. Not even the most democratic one in the past.
yes exactly, thats another keyword, humilation. Russia feels humilated because it lost its past glory. but instead like countries like England, Turkey, Portugal and particularly Austria, which is now just a pathetic small state in the mountains, Russia thinks and hopes how to get back to the status of a dominating worldpower instead of accepting the changing realities of the world. worldpowers come and go, think of Rome. Russia hasn't arrived in the 20th century because it still dreams of old dreams.
As I said USSR treated some of its puppets really well. And yes American tanks roled through their puppets' capitals many times. Have you heard about the city called Saigon for example.
in that case US tanks rolled through every capital, the difference bewteen Budapest and Saigon is that the US tanks in Sotuhvietnam tried to win a Civil war for their allies that they couldn't win whiel in Budapest those tansk were used to quell an open rebellion vs the Puppetmaster.
I don't undestand what you said here? Russia isn't even in the 20th century? What you write doesn't make sense, sorry. In the 19th century Russia complitely dominated half of Eastern Europe in the 20th century its domination became even stronger.
But now where is the western border of Russia? It was hardly able to subdue its own breakaway province. So, don't make a supernatural boggy out of it.
yes exactly thats what i mean, Russia still believes it has something to say in eastern Europe (like in 19th century), the whole war with Georgia prooves that. to quote Isaac Asimov: "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
Have you actually meet many Russian people in your life? Have you tried to visit Russia talk to its people, witness by yourself what is going on there?
If you have a chance, please do. Because otherwise your posts look like shortsighted brainwash . But I can't blame you for that, because how can you know for sure what's going on if you don't have the first hand experience.
all the Russians i know are Volga Germans that are now living here, you know. the other half i met here on AE, people like rider and Majkes or any other Estonian or Polish member for that matter. add to that all those Germans who used to live in the DDR. do you think even a single one of those has even one good word about the USSR? hell no. actually not all of them are negative towards Russia as such (as opposed to USSR). and no one against Russian people (as opposed to Russian government).
i didn't said that but Poland particularly already rebelled to Czarist Russia. why is it a bad example? because it was one of those puppets who dared to stood up against the big brother?
No. Because these states were indeed treated badly, but it doesn't mean that all the USSR puppet states were treated that badly. Some of them were treated really well. Likewise some American puppets were getting good treatment and some got very bad treatment.
Of course Poland had and has the right to be independent and it was oppressed by Russia in the past.
But now nobody wants neither cann oppress Poland in Russia that's it.
And if you really want to examine the histoy so thorguhly let's get into more distant part let's ask who first attack who and who first captured other state's capital and was looting, raping and killing first?
Do people of Poland and Russia need to review that bitter past again, again and again.
No, the don't need it !
I still don't understand how you can compare USSR with Russia. Perhaps you forgot that Russian people got rid of the USSR themselves.
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" I like this quote and tell me now please who started the war.
If you think that Hiroshima isn't an issue in Japan you are really mistaken. BTW has every USA apologized to Japan, like the USSR to Poland?
Beilerbei gave you enough examples of oppressed American puppets.
And you know neither Vietnam nor Cuba were complitely controlled by the USSR.
If you think that Russians are crazy imperialists who are dreaming about crushing Poland and Baltic states this is simply paranoia. The polish prime-minister who you seem to admire called Russian-German pipeline agreement a "Molotov-Ribbentrop pact" you think this is normal, right?
And about Ossetia. I again don't think any country would like its people being killed, nor Germany nor France nor England. And please don't make thouse countries so peaceful. France has been constatnly intervening in Africa, England as well.
There are 2 options stop the paranoia and build friendly relations with Russia and 2nd continue the paranoia, oppress Russian ethnic minority, build military blocks against Russia, provoke it and condemn it of Imperialism which didn't exist in the form it's claimed.
The second way just will provoke countering Russian paranoia and militarism and then everybody will be indeed very "happy".
haha, the hero of the proletariat has returned, what an honour for me! hey bey, why don't you come and rescue me? i am working in a big bad capitalist factory like a slave, but beware i'm part of a trade-union! has your anti-americanism already made a good commie of you? mmhm apaprently not, but nowadays every anti-american spoiled western prats styles itself Commie anyways...
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi
It is quite clear that Russia can come to an understanding with the Western Europeans, Turkey and Iran, and all can balance each other's imperialisms out in Europe. Unfortunately, USA is a rabid dog that keeps attacking Russia and undermining the world peace.
how's that possible given that Russia itself is an Imperialist power herself? of course the US is at the moment the biggest enemy of world peace, because you've not the power to threaten the world yourself.
What a load of garbage. Go and ask how the people feel about America in Turkey and other American puppet states in the Middle East, and hear what the answer is even when your beloved masters are still the only superpower. Ask Iranians how they feel, remember they were an American satellite before the revolution in 1979. Ask Chileans, search Penguin's posts on American aggression in Latin America on this very site. Ask the Vietnamese in Vietnam. Ask Haitians, Panamanians, Guatemalans, Nicaraguans, Cubanese, ask Mexicans. Ask South African blacks about how they feel about the US support to Apartheid while USSR was supporting Mandela. Hell, ask the French, even your fellow Germans (well, maybe not your kamaraden). I was in Germany when Sep 11 happened, the building was collapsing, I said 'that was bad many people must have died in there', a regular German guy (not political in any way) in my office replied 'good riddance, the Amis (German derogatory term for American, like yank) were asking for it'...
of course people complain about the USA all the time, including me occasionally, that's what's called freedom of speech and in your case AASP (meanign see in first paragraph). people who complained about the USSR dissappeared, or even nowadays about Russia, but i can't remember the name of that female journalist. yeah USA has done some nasty things in their past, and people can freely talk about that today, thats the big advantage of the USA over the USSR/Russia. BTW, how come nowadays people complain about Apartheid but took a blind eye of the recent supression of Boers-Afrikanners by the Black population? thats hypocracy in my book. also Ami isn't derogatory unless you say Amischwein, Ami is just short for American, it's maybe disrespectful but its not derogatory.
So no, US did not treat its satellites well. It terrorised many. For every Soviet foreign intervention during the Cold war there are at least two direct and at least two more indirect American interventions.
those, like in the example of Soviet puppets by Sarmat were never under direct control by Washington, those were all third world countries who suffered under the Cold War.
Yes, Russia is imperialist, so was the USSR after Lenin. However, compared to the West, they are clearly the lesser evil, absolute amateurs, always on the defensive.
what do you mean with "after Lenin"? certainly not the lesser evil, for reasons see paragraph above.
Russia wants what everyone else wants, secure borders. However, the word 'cooperation' does not exist in the Yankee dictionary. The only language they understand is spoken by guns. It is also visible in their culture if you watch their films, they solve all problems by shooting them. What US wants is to make Russia do what it tells them, like it did under Yeltsin. A clown who was celebrated in the West as a hero of democracy (he ordered tanks to the Duma) while Putin (who futhered the interests of his own country rather than those of Wall Street) is declared the the new Hitler.
secured borders? whose borders? those of Russia proper or those of its zone of influence? its funny though, because the USA cooperated with mayn countries in ww2, like fellow imperialist power Great britian, while the USSR couldn't even cooperate with fellow Commie China, interestign, isn't it?
This is ignorance beyond belief, or a lame propaganda attempt. US tanks rolled through the streets of Haiti, Guatemala, Philipinnes, Panama, Grenada, Dominican Republic, South Vietnam, South Korea just from the top of my head. Maybe for you these don't count because the people they killed there are not white but merely untermenschen unlike the Czechs or Hungarians?
you can also add Baghdad and Kabul, let's not forget both regimes were at one point complices of the US
Russia is imperialist, and it sure did impose things they did not like on some eastern Europeans. And surely the Eastern Europeans have the right to be independent. But they are not independent, they are American puppets. The important things is, unlike the US Russia is weak. It can be contained by independent powers. The danger it poses to the world is miniscule compared to the danger posed by the West.
the point is the puppets have choosen their master herself, and they have choosen the US for reasons of personal freedom and free trade, both of which the USSR denied to them, and it was not a matter of weak and strong but doctrine.
The answer is, the West has been expanding like Hitler did in Eastern Europe, led by the rabid neocon dogs, but as observed here (actually repeated from the Guardian article) no great power retreats forever. In this war Russia regained its great power status, by checking Western expansion.
so, do we see a re-emergence of Rome tomorrow? Deutsches Reich next week perhaps?
btw yes, Germany has good relations with Russia, due to trade etc but i don't see how Poles are disliked by most Germans, most Germans i know ARE Poles . during the football EC some Volga Germans pulled out the Russian flag in open and no one was disturbed by that. therefore you cannot really see anti-Russianness here either.
Originally posted by Sarmat12
I still don't understand how you can compare USSR with Russia. Perhaps you forgot that Russian people got rid of the USSR themselves.
what do you mean by Russian people? there was no popular uprising, one elite removed the other.
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" I like this quote and tell me now please who started the war.
that will become clear only later. the question for those peacekeepers. if the name implies they were there to "keep peace", they didn't achieved their goal, so they are to blame.
If you think that Hiroshima isn't an issue in Japan you are really mistaken. BTW has every USA apologized to Japan, like the USSR to Poland?
no, because they think it was justified and proportionate. but then japan has never apologized for the rape of Nanjing either. but why are people so eager for apologies anyways, what happened happened and and apology don't change that, in fact i could run over the whole world and then apologize but i woudl have still done it. Germany payed compensatiosn after both worldwars, now THAT is something everyone wants, money, not some half-arsed apologies.
If you think that Russians are crazy imperialists who are dreaming about crushing Poland and Baltic states this is simply paranoia. The polish prime-minister who you seem to admire called Russian-German pipeline agreement a "Molotov-Ribbentrop pact" you think this is normal, right?
no i do not admire the kascynskis at all, the present MP of Poland is Donald Tusk, they were also opposed by much of their own people, therefore he got replaced. this was also not the only one of his weird opinions....
And about Ossetia. I again don't think any country would like its people being killed, nor Germany nor France nor England. And please don't make thouse countries so peaceful. France has been constatnly intervening in Africa, England as well.
don't get me started on France, biggest hypocrite in the world. they oppress the German population in Alsace and no one can do anyhting. could you imagine what it would look like if German tanks would roll over the French border to protect the rights of the German minority in France (which will soon be completely assimilated)?
There are 2 options stop the paranoia and build friendly relations with Russia and 2nd continue the paranoia, oppress Russian ethnic minority, build military blocks against Russia, provoke it and condemn it of Imperialism which didn't exist in the form it's claimed.
The second way just will provoke countering Russian paranoia and militarism and then everybody will be indeed very "happy".
there is only one option as i outlined above (i mean the "Austria option").
"in that case US tanks rolled through every capital, the difference bewteen Budapest and Saigon is that the US tanks in Sotuhvietnam tried to win a Civil war for their allies that they couldn't win whiel in Budapest those tansk were used to quell an open rebellion vs the Puppetmaster."
No, actully the difference between Budapest and Saigon is in number of casualties.
"you can also add Baghdad and Kabul, let's not forget both regimes were at one point complices of the US "
same can be applied to Kabul and Baghdad. Recent wedding bombing created mofre casualties than Budapest and Prague together.
As a citizen of so called "American puppet state" i must admit I feel pretty well. I can also recommend such occupation to other who would like to follow.
The fact that you enjoy it does not make your country more independent. And in (God forbid) comflict between Russia and NATO Poland will suffer first. Exactly how it would be if Poland would be in Warsaw block. No difference, you see. At least you had a lot economical benefits from USSR which States do not bother to offer you.
Some of them were treated really well. Likewise some American puppets were getting good treatment and some got very bad treatment.
Which American puppets got very bad treatment? Just interested ....
And if you really want to examine the histoy so thorguhly let's get into more distant part let's ask who first attack who and who first captured other state's capital and was looting, raping and killing first?
And who was shelling Georgian villages since the beginning of summer? I actually don't want to go into argument over this issue, but its very clear, that those were Ossetians who were supplied with Russian artillery. So tell me what kind of "Peacekeepers" are Russians if they supply the rebels with artillery, apc's (Abhazians even have tanks and SU plaines) while in peacekeeping theory they should disarm them. I somehow can't recall UN peacekeepers in Leboanon hanging out with Hezbollah for example. Also this conflict set a new precedent in history where peacekeepers happily took the flags and standarts of rebels and openly displayed them on their armoured units. Somehow I also don't recall NATO invading Serbia with wawing Kosovar or Bosnian flags.
Do people of Poland and Russia need to review that bitter past again, again and again.
No, the don't need it !
Sorry, but it is rather simplistic view. There are still many unresolved issues in their past.
I still don't understand how you can compare USSR with Russia. Perhaps you forgot that Russian people got rid of the USSR themselves.
So? That doesn't change the fact that SU is Russia. German people also got rid of German Empire in 1918, but the Germany didn't go away.
Russians themselves don't see and feel any difference between SU and Russia as a state idea and concept. The first one in their mind was strong till "suka" Gorbachov destroyed it.
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" I like this quote and tell me now please who started the war.
Of course Georgians. So lets laugh about how they fell in Russian trap.
If you think that Russians are crazy imperialists who are dreaming about crushing Poland and Baltic states this is simply paranoia. The polish prime-minister who you seem to admire called Russian-German pipeline agreement a "Molotov-Ribbentrop pact" you think this is normal, right?
Not only ungrateful Baltic states and Poland are against Russian-German pipeline, but also Finns and Swedes too.
And about Ossetia. I again don't think any country would like its people being killed, nor Germany nor France nor England.
Is that really a country? Considering that whole government of S.Osetia is made from Russians (born in Russia with interesting past) and one Osetian (former SU champion in wrestling) who of course is president.
There are 2 options stop the paranoia and build friendly relations with Russia and 2nd continue the paranoia, oppress Russian ethnic minority, build military blocks against Russia, provoke it and condemn it of Imperialism which didn't exist in the form it's claimed.
Wise words. I can only complement them with one politician words "there are only two ways how to deal with Russia - either beat it hard or lick its boots".
And in (God forbid) comflict between Russia and NATO Poland will suffer first. Exactly how it would be if Poland would be in Warsaw block.
Well thats rather self evident. Poland borders with Russia. So in War NATO vs Russia - Russian western provinces will suffer as much as Poland.
At least you had a lot economical benefits from USSR which States do not bother to offer you.
Well Poland doesn't need any economical benefits from USA. The benefit itself is that Poland doesn't receive any "economical benefits" from USSR/Russia.
Hehe... Why do you think the revolution happened in Cuba or in Nicaragua and why Americans are disliked in Korea?
In a lot of 3d wolrd countries American policies just have been "suck off the resources and support whatever bastard as long as he is pro-American"
That was in Iran before the 1979 and that is happening now in Georgia.
Originally posted by Roberts
And if you really want to examine the histoy so thorguhly let's get into more distant part let's ask who first attack who and who first captured other state's capital and was looting, raping and killing first?
And who was shelling Georgian villages since the beginning of summer? I actually don't want to go into argument over this issue, but its very clear, that those were Ossetians who were supplied with Russian artillery. So tell me what kind of "Peacekeepers" are Russians if they supply the rebels with artillery, apc's (Abhazians even have tanks and SU plaines) while in peacekeeping theory they should disarm them. I somehow can't recall UN peacekeepers in Leboanon hanging out with Hezbollah for example. Also this conflict set a new precedent in history where peacekeepers happily took the flags and standarts of rebels and openly displayed them on their armoured units. Somehow I also don't recall NATO invading Serbia with wawing Kosovar or Bosnian flags.
Sorry, you complitely misunerstood me. I wasn't talking about Georgia here.
Originally posted by Roberts
Do people of Poland and Russia need to review that bitter past again, again and again.
No, the don't need it !
Sorry, but it is rather simplistic view. There are still many unresolved issues in their past.
Why, it's simplistic, which problems are unresolved? I don't see any except anti-Russian paranoia problem
Originally posted by Roberts
So? That doesn't change the fact that SU is Russia. German people also got rid of German Empire in 1918, but the Germany didn't go away.
Yes, it changed a lot because Russia now is not going to force anybody to accept some weird ideology or invade countries just because they disagree with the policy of Moscow.
Please don't give me the Georgian example because they were invaded after shooting Russian peacekeepers first. Very "smart move" indeed.
Originally posted by Roberts
Of course Georgians. So lets laugh about how they fell in Russian trap.
What are you laughing about? You logic is simple.You can shoot a Russian, it's fine. But Russia can't shoot back he is an ultimate evil
Originally posted by Roberts
Not only ungrateful Baltic states and Poland are against Russian-German pipeline, but also Finns and Swedes too.
Finns and Swedes have valid ecological concerns and they are not talking about Motolov etc. I was talking about paranoidal comparisons
Originally posted by Roberts
Is that really a country? Considering that whole government of S.Osetia is made from Russians (born in Russia with interesting past) and one Osetian (former SU champion in wrestling) who of course is president.
I'm talking primary about Russian peacekeepers, OK.
Wise words. I can only complement them with one politician words "there are only two ways how to deal with Russia - either beat it hard or lick its boots".
So in your opinion, Germany, Turkey or Finland which have quite good relations with Russia are licking its boots .
Well thats rather self evident. Poland borders with Russia. So in War NATO vs Russia - Russian western provinces will suffer as much as Poland.
But it will be Russian problem, whereas Poland could avoid this keeping neutrality with Russia. Look at Bulgaria or Sweden in WWII. Casualties there were extremely small. Besides, many of western population in Russia could move East, where will Poles move?
Well Poland doesn't need any economical benefits from USA. The benefit itself is that Poland doesn't receive any "economical benefits" from USSR/Russia.
Oh, come on! That is why, probably Poland creates all this fuss about access to Russian market and pipes surrounding her territories, hm? Poland lose billions and billions Euros as a result of clearly anti-russian politics. Keep they at least apparent good relations with Russia situation would be quite different.
does anyone really believe Russia will be the good neighbour ever? talks about cooperation are a good laugh.
It is quite clear that Russia can come to an understanding with the Western Europeans, Turkey and Iran, and all can balance each other's imperialisms out in Europe. Unfortunately, USA is a rabid dog that keeps attacking Russia and undermining the world peace.
anyways does anyone here really believe any of the current USA puppets would become anti-american after the US ceases to exist as a superpower for whatever reason? the answer is no, simply because USA treated and treats is puppets well, something the USSR/Russia never did, and then they wonder why even countries like Ukraine co-operate with Poland and the west in general over Russia.
What a load of garbage. Go and ask how the people feel about America in Turkey and other American puppet states in the Middle East, and hear what the answer is even when your beloved masters are still the only superpower. Ask Iranians how they feel, remember they were an American satellite before the revolution in 1979. Ask Chileans, search Penguin's posts on American aggression in Latin America on this very site. Ask the Vietnamese in Vietnam. Ask Haitians, Panamanians, Guatemalans, Nicaraguans, Cubanese, ask Mexicans. Ask South African blacks about how they feel about the US support to Apartheid while USSR was supporting Mandela. Hell, ask the French, even your fellow Germans (well, maybe not your kamaraden). I was in Germany when Sep 11 happened, the building was collapsing, I said 'that was bad many people must have died in there', a regular German guy (not political in any way) in my office replied 'good riddance, the Amis (German derogatory term for American, like yank) were asking for it'...
So no, US did not treat its satellites well. It terrorised many. For every Soviet foreign intervention during the Cold war there are at least two direct and at least two more indirect American interventions.
well Anton said the USSR gave Poland many territories in the West after ww2. he didn't mentioned that the USSR first annexed East Poland herself! he said that Hungary amongst others profited from the USSR, now thats the explanation for all those tanks in Budapest 1956!
Yes, Russia is imperialist, so was the USSR after Lenin. However, compared to the West, they are clearly the lesser evil, absolute amateurs, always on the defensive.
Russia wants co-operation with the USA?
Russia wants what everyone else wants, secure borders. However, the word 'cooperation' does not exist in the Yankee dictionary. The only language they understand is spoken by guns. It is also visible in their culture if you watch their films, they solve all problems by shooting them. What US wants is to make Russia do what it tells them, like it did under Yeltsin. A clown who was celebrated in the West as a hero of democracy (he ordered tanks to the Duma) while Putin (who futhered the interests of his own country rather than those of Wall Street) is declared the the new Hitler.
so bottom line, why does Russia nowadays gets politically isolated?
Russia isn't isolated. You are deluded or duped into believing this, but it is quite normal since the Western people are notorious for believing that the world consists only of them. Western art forms are 'universal', Western law is 'natural law', etc. etc.
Turkish Prime minister was in Moscow recently. China and Russia have good relations. India has good relations with them. Even EU states were talking to the Russians to arrange the cease fire.
because it doesn't know how to treat its puppets well and it created this situation herself, so yes, Russia is bad because Russia is always bad, or did US tanks ever roll through the streets of any of its puppets capitals?
This is ignorance beyond belief, or a lame propaganda attempt. US tanks rolled through the streets of Haiti, Guatemala, Philipinnes, Panama, Grenada, Dominican Republic, South Vietnam, South Korea just from the top of my head. Maybe for you these don't count because the people they killed there are not white but merely untermenschen unlike the Czechs or Hungarians?
Of course the US is rich unlike Russia, and they usually just buy the local elite to do the dirty jobs. I won't write the list of countries they intervened through proxy here, since it would make the post a few pages longer. IIRC, the total is around 80 since 1945.
people complain Russia hasn't yet entered the 21st century, from what i see Russia isn't even in the 20th century, or do they still maintain they have some sort of influence on the Balkans/Serbia (hello ww1)?
Russia is imperialist, and it sure did impose things they did not like on some eastern Europeans. And surely the Eastern Europeans have the right to be independent. But they are not independent, they are American puppets. The important things is, unlike the US Russia is weak. It can be contained by independent powers. The danger it poses to the world is miniscule compared to the danger posed by the West.
Those condemning Russia should first tell us why the f**k does NATO still exist today (as it is supposed to be an anti-Warsaw pact organisation)? What the f**k is NATO doing in the ex-Soviet Caucasus? What the f**k are the Americans doing installing missiles in so-called 'independent' countries such as Poland? What the f**k is SStonia doing in NATO? What the f**k is Kosovo other than some invented country to accomodate a huge US airbase? What the f**k is the West doing in the Middle East?
The answer is, the West has been expanding like Hitler did in Eastern Europe, led by the rabid neocon dogs, but as observed here (actually repeated from the Guardian article) no great power retreats forever. In this war Russia regained its great power status, by checking Western expansion.
Of course the Westerners (and their East European serfs) started whining immediately of 'Russian aggression', of 'sub-human slavic hordes', of 'disproportionate response'... As if Iraq was self defence, as if Israel's destruction of Lebanon was proportionate (the West blocked the UN ceasefire, allowing the Israel's bombardment to continue)... I say if it takes this to remove the rabid Western imperialists out of the Caucasus, so let it be.
I recall a saying something like: "When the Czar of all the Russias, the commander of 3,000,000 foot guards, horse guards, cossacks and mujiks starts to talk of peace, it is time for decent people to look to their guns."
And what shall decent people do when the President of the United States, who spends more on military than rest of the world put together, who invades a new country every few years, who openly declares that his goal is 'full spectrum dominance' of the world speaks of peace, of democracy, of freedom?
I think Russians are too light on you. Even the Soviets were. If USSR were like the US, we would be living in the Mad Max world now.
I see the Marxist-Leninist hyperpole machine remains in working order.
As a citizen of so called "American puppet state" i must admit I feel pretty well. I can also recommend such occupation to other who would like to follow.
The fact that you enjoy it does not make your country more independent. And in (God forbid) comflict between Russia and NATO Poland will suffer first. Exactly how it would be if Poland would be in Warsaw block. No difference, you see. At least you had a lot economical benefits from USSR which States do not bother to offer you.
Are You joking? that is what they teach You in school??
You don't understand what is independence. The thing is we can do what we want now and American tanks won't visit our capital. Quite diffrent case is with Russia.
If we want to support American policy we can do it and it doesn't mean we are not independent.
If You see no diffrence between Poland in NATO and in Warsaw Pact that is a problem of your lack of politics understanding. I can't help You.
Your opinions about economical adventures in USSR times are so stupid that it's hard to discuss it. I remember Poland now and in Communism times, we do better without USSR's help. In the past Poland couldn't use Marshal plan cause USSR forbid it, instead we get nothing.
Before WWII Poland was richer than Spain after USSR's help it became poorer. That says everything about economical advantages of being USSR's puppet.
Besides now Poland is much more wealthier and better off. Polish are much richer so what are you talking about? What economical advantages?
You pick some facts that suits You and omit those who don't. Like Temujin mentioned USSR gave Poland Western territory ( that were Germans before, not a big sacrifise to give something that is not Yours ) but You forgot to mention USSR grabbed even more land that Poland had on the EAST.
P.S. I know we would be in front line in case of war but that is our geographical disadvantage and we can do nothing about it.
Well Poland doesn't need any economical benefits from USA. The benefit itself is that Poland doesn't receive any "economical benefits" from USSR/Russia.
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