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Dolphin
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Topic: 16th Turkish General Election, 2007 Posted: 04-Sep-2007 at 09:41 |
I dont think that was the due intention of his point, Mortaza...
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DayI
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Posted: 04-Sep-2007 at 15:53 |
Originally posted by Mortaza
You still did not show me correlation between happiness and Turkishness..
did you?
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You might be a laz but you seem to be dummer then a laz in this sense. "Ne mutlu Trkm diyene" if this isnt clear enough to you, or if you cant understand what it means...Learn Turkish! it is just a slogan, just a slogan....
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Bulldog
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Posted: 04-Sep-2007 at 16:11 |
Mortaza You still did not show me correlation between happiness and Turkishness.. |
Happy to be a Turk...its not rocket science now or a puzzling philosophical question, quite simply a phrase, one which any rational person would have no problem with.
Happy to be Brittish
Happy to be French
Happy to be American
Wow, big deal, I'll be having sleepless nights over any American guy being happy that he's American, how dare he, he should be distrout, deeply ashamed and upset...peh the audacity of it...
Edited by Bulldog - 04-Sep-2007 at 16:14
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 04-Sep-2007 at 17:01 |
I think Mortaza's point (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you
shouldn't force someone to say
a phrase when it compromises their identity. Ethnic Turks have no
problem with this phrase, but ethnic Kurds or Laz who are Turkish
citizens might have a problem because even though they are "happy to be
a
Turk", they might also be happy to be Kurd or Laz, and by only making
them say "happy to be a Turk", you are forcefully restricting their
identity to only a Turk, instead of a Kurdish Turk or Laz Turk.
Its a very picky criticism, but there are many implications behind
such simple phrases. In a country like Turkey that has a bad record of
minority rights and integration, I don't think it helps the situation
if you force everyone to say they are ONLY a Turk (in essence, thats what the
phrase is making them claim).
Legally, we are aware that a citizen of Turkey is considered a "Turk", and that is obviously another Turkification policy from the old days. But to the average person, a Turk is someone who is descended from Turks, shares a common history and has their mother tongue as a Turkic language. Kurds, Laz, Armenians, etc, do not fall into this category, therefore they are not Turks, they are simply citizens of Turkey. Just because the law attempts to redefine a commonly-held definition of a word (Turk), doesn't mean that the meaning changes for your common citizen.
Originally posted by DayI
You might be a laz but you seem to be dummer then a laz in this sense |
Are you saying that Laz people are dumb, or did I miss something?
Edited by ArmenianSurvival - 04-Sep-2007 at 17:10
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Bulldog
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Posted: 04-Sep-2007 at 19:12 |
Stop making a moutain out of a mole-hill.
Happy to be a Turk, oh how terrible, hundreds of people are dying every day in Turkey's border state Iraq, Pkk Terrorists are killing civillians in Turkey itself, there are burning forrests, water shortages and so many problems, yet your foaming at the mouth about people saying "Happy to be a Turk"
Oh and AS, why don't you criticise Armenia's record on human rights and minorities before pointing fingers at others.
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 04-Sep-2007 at 19:38 |
Originally posted by Bulldog
Happy to be a Turk, oh how terrible, hundreds of people are dying every
day in Turkey's border state Iraq, Pkk Terrorists are killing
civillians in Turkey itself, there are burning forrests, water
shortages and so many problems, yet your foaming at the mouth about
people saying "Happy to be a Turk" |
No one said this matter is worse than those things. But that
doesn't change the fact that it is wrong to force people to say
something. This tiny matter is a reflection of the bigger picture in
Turkish society, which is why I believe its relevant. A lot of people
are told what to say (or told what not to say) by the state, and this
includes reporters, journalists and people in academia.
Originally posted by Bulldog
Oh and AS, why don't you criticise Armenia's record on
human rights and minorities before pointing fingers at others. |
Yes next time I enter a discussion about Turkey I'll start posting about an irrelevant topic........
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance
晛桯 掍梮 掅捸桮 捸桮 掍梮
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Bulldog
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Posted: 04-Sep-2007 at 19:49 |
Oh and I guess you've been emotionally traumatized singing the national anthem and reciting the "pledge of allegience" every day in the U.S
Calm down now
Edited by Bulldog - 04-Sep-2007 at 19:57
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
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Seko
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Posted: 05-Sep-2007 at 11:49 |
Originally posted by Bulldog
DayI
by whom should it been owned than? now maybe he can change to owned by fettos and his students. |
Fethullah efendi's motto would be the world will be run by Turks
Mortaza
selcuks and ottomans did not care for Turkish nationalism and look at what they did. |
Seljuks and Ottomans moved the Oghuz Turk clans to the region of todays Turkey, they made Turkish the official language of the state, they Turkified the entire region in a millenia to such an extent that the name "Turkiye" is a derrivation of "Turchia" which was first given by Europeans.
Actions speak louder than words.
Its a shame some so-called Ottoman fans have "Murad V" as a role model, the decadent, submissive, weak period of the Ottomans instead of the glorious periods of Ertugrul Bey, Fatih Mehmed II Sultan Han or Suleyman the Magnificent.
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Fetuhullah Gulen is no efendi. He is a subversive Islamofascist who is a big AKP sponsor. Same with Harun Yahya (Adnan Oktar). Do a search on the latter and his banning of internet sites and dismissal of journalists in Turkey who happened to oppose him. Along with the AKP these authoritarians are the biggest threat to Turkey's secularism and freedom of the press. Real freedom of press and not some caricature of a story either.
Inept Murad V was in power for a few days at that. Islamofascists love Abdul Hamid II as their idol. Reminds them of the glory days of religiously totalitarian government.
Edited by Seko - 05-Sep-2007 at 11:56
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Al Jassas
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Posted: 05-Sep-2007 at 14:44 |
What is the definition of "islamofascism"? looked it up in the dictionary and couldn't find it and was hoping you tell me why are those poeple you call them that are like this.
By the way, doesn't Mersin and Osmaniye provinces have an Alevi majority but they elected MHP delegates and Alevi as I heard shun who votes other than CHP.
Al-Jassas
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Seko
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Posted: 05-Sep-2007 at 15:12 |
Al Jassa, the Islamofascist is a slang word for those so-called religious leaders who adhere to corrupt ideological policies. They have been mixed in with an illegal underground who's members have been found to blackmail and use bribes, among other things, to push an anti-secular agenda in Turkey. Fetullah, aka Hocaefendi, has been exciled to US. He had been indicted for unlawful Islamist activities against the republic. Oktar continues to push creationism in schools. He is also notorious for getting a Turkish court to block Turkish access to WordPress.com and it's blogs for material Oktar objected to (anti-Oktar blogs).
Mersin and Osmaniye may have a strong CHP base. I really don't know the reasons for MHP support.
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Bulldog
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Posted: 05-Sep-2007 at 15:38 |
I really don't get the wild conspiracies about Fethullah Gullen.
The guy is no extremist, more along a Sufi line of thought, has opened Turk schools around the world and built good relations between Central Asian Turks and Turkiye Turks aswell as winning respect and a good name for Turks where his groups are active.
Even his "Turkish language and education championships" are sponsered by official organisations in Turkey today.
Sure, as in any organisation there are aspects which can be criticised and questionable. They can be pretty secretive, have alterior motives etc
But these guys arn't exactly a "radicalised" threat, now lets imagine they were got rid of, they'll just be replaced by real hardcore wahabbi's, then they'll be no need for "conspiracies" the problem will be real and open.
Edited by Bulldog - 05-Sep-2007 at 16:00
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
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Seko
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Posted: 05-Sep-2007 at 16:12 |
On the surface this organization, which is huge btw, looks innocent and altruistic enough. That's a false front with a purpose though. Here's some info on him. Interesting read on his strategy as well.
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Al Jassas
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Posted: 05-Sep-2007 at 17:18 |
Sorry Seko but I think that Fethullah Gullen and his so called "Islamists" are nothing more than boogeyman used by certain people in the Turkish so called "secular establishment" to frighten people who support that establishment (who form a good section of the population). If Gulen went to egypt and preached his message their he would have been the laughing stock for both people and politics there. They would lynch him if he said he represented true Islam because he simpley is not. Yes he might have had "militant Islamist" activity in the 70s but as far as I know everyone did since Turkey was in a real civil war without military stile operations including current MHP members. Actually I think it was the Grey wolves the paramilitary wing of the MHP that carried out the atrocities in Kahramanmaraş back in Dec 78. As for having Anti-Secular agenda, well, if Turkey is a true democracy then he should have as much political space as any one else plus, it is the Turkish people who decide their fate not the military nor the unelected "establishment". The core of the secularist argument in Turkey and around the Islamic world is as Rush Limbaugh says the Dems think and Persue "They think and propagate that you (the people) are stupid and do not no how to run your own affairs so elect us and we will set every thing staight which is always our way" ufortuanatly most secularist elite think that way. By the way, I am a die hard creationist, at least as far as humans are concerned, doest that makes me an "Islamofascist"?
sorry again for getting involved in matters that are not my own but like it or not, people in the Arab world, like me for example, are capitalizaing of the AKP and a new AKP like islamist but more conservative on social issues and firmly believe in democracy, unlike the Brotherhood Islamists who's view on democracy are like those alleged comments by Erdogan, and would be nothing better than current regimes if not worse since they use religion to justify corruption. The future of this volatile region may well depend on what happens in Turkey not Iraq.
Al-Jassas
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Seko
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Posted: 05-Sep-2007 at 17:52 |
You wanted to know about the men in my post and I gave you my impression. You are absolutely free to choose your own judgments. Whether 'boogeymen' to some or guilty of crimes to others they have a unique history.
Surely Democracy has been a proven form of government where every citizen has a voice. How that democracy is constructed varies from country to country. Just as there is no ideal democractic state the same goes for an Islamic country. Take your pick. Egypt, Malaysia, Iran, Saudi Arabia. Which one is the true Islamic republic? The secularists concerns are that governments, such as the AKP, will try to break down the voice of the military, the protector of secular rights in Turkey, through democratic means. Then change or deny those democratic rights once power is achieved. AKP strong arm tactics have already been evident in many walks of life. The AKP knows that the military is watching, yet complains to Europe that the miliary is in the way of true Democracy and hence a path to the EU. That is politics. No trust gained there. Also much funding to the AKP is unaccounted for. Now they are now trying to create a new AnaYasa (Law) to protect Gul and his money trail. Immunity from prosecution.
By Yahya submitting the AKP with his books on creationism he is actually trying to have his books passed onto the schools. Creationism is a theory. However, there are alternative theories. There is room for both. You can call yourself an Islamofascist if you so choose but that doesn't make you one. I assume you don't have the follwowing or the power to implement a fascist agenda.
Surely you are capitalizing on Turkey's current events. Many Arabs I know pay close attention as well. However, they really want an Islamic Republic ASAP. That is their wish and maybe yours too.
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Lmprs
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Posted: 05-Sep-2007 at 18:18 |
Originally posted by Bulldog
what is wrong with being "happy" to be a Turk, should you be unhappy |
No, you should be neutral, not happy or unhappy. Besides, that's not the point of that statement.
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Al Jassas
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Posted: 05-Sep-2007 at 19:40 |
Hello Seko.
You assume, I think, that all "Islamists" want an Islamic republic that might be on the Iranian model, well I am sorry to tell you that there is no such thing. Brotherhood Islamists want power for power's sake. The concept of Republic, which means that the state is responsible to the people, simply is non existance in their literature. These people care nothing of what Islam says about the importance of people's livelyhoods and the promotion of justice and rule of law. Their whole literature is one of submission, submission of the state and the people to the ruler without any opposition, any one who opposes is not a muslim and should be imprisoned or even killed. The concept of election for some of them is even contradictory to Islam and when you face them with serious questions they shun you and change the question. In recent years however, certain segments of the Islamist movement that tried to reform such thought from within, but the partriarch of the Islamist movements, the youngest leader of the brotherhood is about 73 years young, almost claimed that they are apostates because they not only believe in true democracy and have done alliances with secularists and accept and respect the laws and do not force change on people who do not want change, but because they attract more secularists than Islamists. Even young well educated people who would be called fundamentalists are keen in supporting democracy and have nothing against secularists as long as they obey the rules of argument and law and not try to force people to do things they do not like. As for Arabs wanting an "Islamist" Turkey, well I will assure you they do not. We already have an "Islamic Republic" in Iran that wasted their people's money on pointless adventures that lost them any sympathy from the Arabs after what has been hapening in Iraq. I know relatives who were so pro-Iranians that we suggested that they should immigrate there but know unfortunately pray day and night that the US destroy Iran. What Arabs really want is a friend that leaves the Arabs alone and cooperate in solving mutual differences through dialog not brute force.
Al-Jassas
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Seko
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Posted: 05-Sep-2007 at 19:55 |
Well, the Iranian model was one of four I had in my sentence whether by name or not. I am glad you find that model more than annoying. I didn't know the Iranians were bothering Arab countries other than Iraq (if that is the country I hear you talking about using brute force and not Turkey).
Edited by Seko - 05-Sep-2007 at 19:56
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Mortaza
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Posted: 06-Sep-2007 at 02:30 |
You might be a laz but you seem to be dummer then a laz in this sense. "Ne mutlu Trkm diyene" if this isnt clear enough to you, or if you cant understand what it means...Learn Turkish! it is just a slogan, just a slogan....
I am realy curious If that is only a slogan, why do army use it for defining her enemy? It is not a just slogan.
Like most people, You are underestimating brain of a laz.. It is sad, You are not aware of meaning of this slogan.
Maybe you are dummer than a laz? I am living in Turkey my friend and I know what is "how happy I am turk" and why It is used.
I am just not talking about writing this words at the mountain or kurdish cities.(Like mardin, It consist only arabs and kurds.) I am sure arabs and kurds have not much interest about correlation between happiness and turks.
Fetullah, aka Hocaefendi, has been exciled to US
Yeah. By army and 28 subat coup.. You realy care for law and democracy. arent you?
Funny, you accuse someone because he is accused by army. (just for info, when Fetullah fleed to USA, same times, head of MIT also fleed from Turkey.)
Will you call head of MIT as islamofasist(Islamofasist is a word used by bush. We dont use it in Turkey.) too.
By the way, Yahya have no relation with AKP(He was writing his books much more before than AKP. It is also funny you follow his job from USA because in Turkey, we dont.).
That is problem of people like you.. You love to accuse AKP so much, You dont care If you are talking about reality or not..
well, at least this is better to claim, erdogan gul and arınc as jews.
Musanın muhalefeti
The AKP knows that the military is watching, yet complains to Europe that the miliary is in the way of true Democracy and hence a path to the EU. That is politics. No trust gained there. Also much funding to the AKP is unaccounted for. Now they are now trying to create a new AnaYasa (Law) to protect Gul and his money trail. Immunity from prosecution.
what a lie. If their aim was to protect Gul, They can do this without new anayasa. Only a law is enough..
Secondly, How do you claim gul as guilty? are you judge? If not, why do you think, you have that rights?
For your info, 47% of Turkish people trust innocence of AKP and Gul(Otherwise they wont vote for them.) and dont tell 53% of them are against Gul and find him as guilty.(I am sure you prefer not to talk, instead of dtp or rp, mhp or chp. You should choose one.)
Infact, You dislike anayasa change, because It is made by army.
Personaly, I dont want to be rule by an anayasa produced by fasist army organization. (like majority of Turkish people.)
Also no need to fear, anayasa change will be voted by people. You will again see result like 22 temmuz.
Trust your own people. (I am talking about Turks not americans.)
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DayI
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Posted: 06-Sep-2007 at 09:24 |
Originally posted by Mortaza
You might be a laz but you seem to be dummer then a laz in this sense. "Ne mutlu Trkm diyene" if this isnt clear enough to you, or if you cant understand what it means...Learn Turkish!
it is just a slogan, just a slogan....
I am realy curious If that is only a slogan, why do army use it for defining her enemy? It is not a just slogan. |
you know what else erdogan said in the past years, that's why they are seeing him as theirs enemy. You know they wanted it change to "ne mutlu Turkiyeliyim diyene", so what's the correlation between the happiness and being from Turkey then? gicina batiyo dimi bu s驆?
Like most people, You are underestimating brain of a laz.. It is sad, You are not aware of meaning of this slogan.
Maybe you are dummer than a laz? I am living in Turkey my friend and I know what is "how happy I am turk" and why It is used. |
You might know it, but i think you couldnt understand it cuz you are still searching a relation inbetween happiness and being something.
I understand it from here 3500km further then you that it is/was an nationalistic slogan for promoting being a Turk. While YOU whose living entire his life there still didnt get it.
I am just not talking about writing this words at the mountain or kurdish cities.(Like mardin, It consist only arabs and kurds.) I am sure arabs and kurds have not much interest about correlation between happiness and turks. |
so what? It is their choice for being interested or not, who cares?
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Seko
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Posted: 06-Sep-2007 at 09:25 |
Thanks as usually for the counterpoint Mortaza. Obviously you have an answer to every AKP rationale. Maybe you could find where the large amount of campaign money came from as well.
One more thing. Regarding the AKP mentality. Surely the economy of Turkey has been helped by a resurgence in business. Reshaping the lira. No more millions to make one dollar. Promises to the poor. However, this is a process my friend. The AKP has an agenda from day one. Whether you or or like it or not it is now going full blast. Not too long ago, oh 2004 for instance. Your wonderful party tried to propose a more stringent law than the one that existed prior to 1996 (which was overturned that year) for adultry. Thanks to the women of Turkey pressure was placed on the government to reject the bill.
Lastly, those other parties that you flash in defense of your every post, they are not threats to the state of Turkey as we have known it for eighty years. I have much faith in Islam but very little faith in those who try to make it a regulation of state affairs. That is the main difference. You have been correct regarding corruption by the other parties, as well as AKP, however those 'other' parties have not held the majority for two elections either!
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