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Omar al Hashim
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Topic: ? to all the people that believe in the b Posted: 08-Feb-2007 at 19:32 |
Originally posted by Aelfgifu
Caliming to understand Islam is quite daring...Tongue After all, people have been fighting over its 'truth' for centuries... (and the same for Christianity as well of course.) |
Ah, but I never actually did that. I only claimed that I thought Christianity was complicated because I didn't understand it. The core of Islam is simple (at least so muslims think). Believe in one God who cannot be compared to anything else, believe in the day of judgement, say your prayers, obey the laws God set. If you do this as best you can heaven if you don't hell. Don't be worried if you can't, God is merciful, do be worried if you don't but can. There isn't any complicated theology about the basic tenants. The "mechanics of the universe" in Islam is not simple, areas like free-will are quite complicated, and then all the bits that have been created by men, the Islamic Sciences such as Hadiths and Shariah, are complicated. I think men have a vested interest in making things complicated so that only educated people can do it. Most of the fights are over Hadiths, or over who should rule.
Originally posted by gcle2003
Originally posted by Cezar
You both state that we are given free will |
Omar, do you actually believe that (I haven't seen you say it.)
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Yes... but at the same time No. Its complicated and I don't understand The way I currently think of it, is as if your walking past a pretty girl and you stop to talk to her. You know that you made the choice to stop and talk to her, you know you could've chosen otherwise, but at the same time you were only responding to the chemicals in your body, the smell and look of the girl, your bodies natural cycles, the fact that your friends had been teasing your for not having a girlfriend. So was it your "free will" that made you stop and talk to her, or was it the scientific explaination ("Gods Will")? It was both in my mind, a situation was setup for you, and you made that decision. But that decision then sets up a situation for someone else (such as the girl), so it is both the will of God, and the will of man at the same time.
Originally posted by Zaitsev
What kind of a meaningless line is that? It's like saying most books are boring until you read them! |
Its not meaningless at all. Has a teacher ever put up a problem on the board, which you thought was complicated and were unable to do. Then the teacher explains it to you and suddenly it all makes sense?
Edited by Omar al Hashim - 08-Feb-2007 at 19:39
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pekau
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Posted: 08-Feb-2007 at 19:44 |
Originally posted by Cezar
Sorry, guys, something came up and I'm about to get myself out of this for some 15 days, at least. I'm sorry for not being able to hold on to my posts but I must earn my payroll. See you all at least on the 26-th of February! |
Hopefully whatever you are doing goes all right.
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pekau
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Posted: 08-Feb-2007 at 19:56 |
Originally posted by Decebal
Sounds like a nice explanation pekau. But why did God make the fruit forbidden in the first place? And how does the sacrifice of Jesus, who is one with God; how does the death of one who doesn't really die because he is God, somehow redeem humanity's sins? And who decides what is a sin? God? in that case isn't the whole point of a grand gesture to overlook his own rules a little moot? That is the problem....
And Top gun, if God is omnipotent and he somehow created us in his own image, then why are we not perfect?
See, I think that actually reading too literally the Bible has one going into circles. I think that at least certain parts of it are a metaphor. As I see it, the original sin was the creation of our imaginary set of rules, our attempt to create our own world. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they realized that they were naked. So in other words, they thought that the natural order of things was not good enough and they had to change their enironment, and assign an arbitrary value to wearing clothes which they didn't really need. For the first time, they introduced an imaginary dual concept: naked as opposed to clothed. The presence of clothes also had a sexual connotation, so it signalled the humans need to assign a mystical quality to certain natural acts: it was the beginning of religion. They actually thought for themselves and started to change the world to their liking, both on a physical (environment) and imaginary (religion) way, even though the world was created specifically for them (or they were created specifically for the world). In other words they questioned God's design, indrectly questioning God himself. And we still do now.... Our own curiosity and drive for knowledge and comfort: that is what creates all the problems. But to deny that is to deny being human. Asking a human not to sin is like asking him to deny what gives him his identity. |
You have a point there, but just because God's decision does not make sense to us does not mean that it's false or stupid. For instance, I simply cannot understand (Although I try to) the full understanding of Quantum Physics, but I can assure that everyone would know it's true, when Hiroshima and Nagasaki was bombed. God's decision may not be rational to us, but simply because our knowledge is limited. The little children may not understand why it's wrong not to have too much candy, but adults (Most of us, anyway) would certainly understand that having too much candy is not good for us.
I will try to justify, though it may be flawed. I don't think God would be satisfied with puppet dolls prasing God all the time. He gave us the free will for a reason. I would perfer to have someone who trusts me even though they have some doubts instead to a robot that follows my command 100%. Why? Because it builds trust, it builds relation. That's why He allowed snake's temptation. That's why He allowed the sin of pride to enter Lucifer's heart.
Bible may be a bunch of metaphors, but I don't see it this way. As science and archiology begins to advance, we are seeing how accurate the Bible is. The great exdus. The civilization of Hittites. The journey of Abraham. The gret Flood. I feel that science is same thing as religion, both shouting the praise that the Lord deserves. It's like two different language. Just because I say God in Korean does not mean the God I worship is different from a French nun praying to God in French. We have different ways to interpret and praise God. Did you know that more and more elite scientists and archiologiests are being converted to Christian?
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Northman
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Posted: 08-Feb-2007 at 20:14 |
Islam or Christianity isnt complicated - nor is Judaism or any other mainstream religion in fact.
They are simple concepts, and they have to be simple to the average person.
They are FAITH's - and that term implies that you cannot reason yourself to a certain truth - you HAVE to believe it.
Its the theologist/clerics who makes it complicated.
If religions werent simple, most people wouldnt understand anything - and even today most people, regardless of religion, dont understand the basic concepts to the full extend.
And more important - most people today - nomatter what they claim, cannot adhere and live to the full extend of what their religion originally demanded of its followers. They bend and twist the words to make it meet their needs and present situation.
Sometimes I claim to be a Christian, trying to follow the simple teachings of Christ. But if I read my bible - read what should characterize a true Christian, I utterly fail.
I dont know anyone who could meet those standards, and certainly not me.
Its not enough to CLAIM you are Christain/Muslim - you have to be recognized as such - by the original standards.
To my best knowledge and assesment - thats impossible if you still plan to function in a modern society.
~ Northman
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pekau
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Posted: 08-Feb-2007 at 20:23 |
Originally posted by Northman
Islam or Christianity isnt complicated - nor is Judaism or any other mainstream religion in fact.
They are simple concepts, and they have to be simple to the average person.
They are FAITH's - and that term implies that you cannot reason yourself to a certain truth - you HAVE to believe it.
Its the theologist/clerics who makes it complicated.
If religions werent simple, most people wouldnt understand anything - and even today most people, regardless of religion, dont understand the basic concepts to the full extend.
And more important - most people today - nomatter what they claim, cannot adhere and live to the full extend of what their religion originally demanded of its followers. They bend and twist the words to make it meet their needs and present situation.
Sometimes I claim to be a Christian, trying to follow the simple teachings of Christ. But if I read my bible - read what should characterize a true Christian, I utterly fail.
I dont know anyone who could meet those standards, and certainly not me.
Its not enough to CLAIM you are Christain/Muslim - you have to be recognized as such - by the original standards.
To my best knowledge and assesment - thats impossible if you still plan to function in a modern society.
~ Northman
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Exactly. Faith, by definition, is the ability to believe even though you cannot prove it.
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Eondt
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Posted: 09-Feb-2007 at 02:19 |
Originally posted by Northman
Islam or Christianity isnt complicated - nor is Judaism or any other mainstream religion in fact.
They are simple concepts, and they have to be simple to the average person.
They are FAITH's - and that term implies that you cannot reason yourself to a certain truth - you HAVE to believe it.
Its the theologist/clerics who makes it complicated.
~ Northman
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Well said
There's alot of sections in the bible that can be interpreted differently. People have always and will always argue about these (the debating that can surround the Christain faith is one of its beautiful qualities to me). Sometimes these arguments can get quite heated and even lead to splits in the community. In the end though I believe these seemingly complicated issues are all personal and should be decided upon between yourself and God.
The core message of the bible isn't complicated at all though and that is what all Christains of all denominations should remember when dealing with one another.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 09-Feb-2007 at 03:48 |
Originally posted by pekau
Exactly. Faith, by definition, is the ability to believe even though you cannot prove it. |
Faith is the ability to go on believing in something after it has been disproven.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 09-Feb-2007 at 05:39 |
I think thats just being stubborn
Originally posted by Northman
Its the theologist/clerics who makes it complicated. |
Learned men of any field have a vested interest in making sure that their field of study is complicated enough that not everyone can do it.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 09-Feb-2007 at 05:49 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
I think thats just being stubborn
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That too.
If you abandon faith just because you're proven wrong, what's the point of having faith?
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Posted: 09-Feb-2007 at 06:14 |
Originally posted by gcle2003
Faith is the ability to go on believing in something after it has been disproven. |
Like GCLE here follows the Evolution faith.
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Northman
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Posted: 09-Feb-2007 at 10:47 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Learned men of any field have a vested interest in making sure that their field of study is complicated enough that not everyone can do it.
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To make a name for learning - when other roads are barred, take something very easy - and make it very hard.
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JanusRook
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Posted: 10-Feb-2007 at 00:34 |
Which is essentially: keep them stupid or they will spot the obvious bull in the story.
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>.> ,Keep people stupid? I'll ask you a rhetorical question as an example, Does human caused global warming exist? It must because that's what some scientist told me. This is just blind faith, you don't personally know that. You just trust someone based on your belief system. If you really wanted to know you'd become a climatologist or a geologist or something like that and learn about global warming in depth before you'd make a statement. Do you need to do this to make an intelligent decision? No, of course not, sometimes you can trust people when what they say is common sense, like take care of the environment in the global warming issue. This is the same for religion, some people just trust what others say is true. Others want to learn more about the issue so they specialize in religious matters. It's not that your not supposed to understand it's that you don't need to understand, as long as what you do doesn't harm anything important.
The core of Islam is simple (at least so muslims think). Believe in one
God who cannot be compared to anything else, believe in the day of
judgement, say your prayers, obey the laws God set. If you do this as
best you can heaven if you don't hell. Don't be worried if you can't,
God is merciful, do be worried if you don't but can.
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Well then Omar, Christianity shouldn't be as complicated as you think since what you just described is exactly the "core" of Christianity as well.
Faith is the ability to go on believing in something after it has been disproven.
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Let me correct your statement a bit glce2003: Blind Faith is the ability to go on believing in something after it has been disproven.
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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
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Akolouthos
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Posted: 10-Feb-2007 at 02:48 |
Originally posted by gcle2003
Faith is the ability to go on believing in something after it has been disproven. |
Reminds me of one of Gregory Nazianzen's quotes (or was it Gregory of Nyssa). Something about faith being belief even should the laws of nature rebel. If you like, I may be able to dig it up for you, but it would be a bit of a chore.
-Akolouthos
Edited by Akolouthos - 10-Feb-2007 at 02:48
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gcle2003
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Posted: 10-Feb-2007 at 04:53 |
Well, that particular phrasing I made up myself, but I owe the thought to one of the students of George Vetter, a professor at New York University, who defined religion to him as "beliefs that cannot be destroyed by the presentation of contrary evidence, and practices whose continuance is independent of their efficacy".
I came across that some thirty-odd years ago, and used it in one of my books.
Which of course doesn't mean the student didn't lift it from somewhere else. Since student habits don't change much , he probably did.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 10-Feb-2007 at 15:40 |
Originally posted by Zaitsev
Originally posted by gcle2003
Faith is the ability to go on believing in something after it has been disproven. |
Like GCLE here follows the Evolution faith.
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Well, no. I'm not even aware there is an 'Evolution faith'. There are several theories that account for evolution. While some of it overlaps my fields of expertise (numerical taxonomy) not much of it does, so I'm content to let people who know more about it than I do put forward their various explanations, and use my standards of assessment to judge between them. But I'm not committed to any one.
That the whole universe was created at 9:15 pm BST July 4 1933 would for instance be an article of faith, were I to believe it, because it cannot be disproven, just as no other single-moment creationist theory can.
And, just for the record, why the personal dig?
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Zagros
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Posted: 10-Feb-2007 at 16:50 |
I don't mean to single you out, Zaitsev, but please end your vendetta! It has become somewhat tiresome to see the continuation of this conflict in every thread the both of you participate in.
Many thanks.
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Posted: 10-Feb-2007 at 21:47 |
Originally posted by gcle2003
Faith is the ability to go on believing in something after it has been disproven. |
Originally posted by gcle2003
That the whole universe was created at 9:15 pm BST July 4 1933 would for instance be an article of faith, were I to believe it, because it cannot be disproven, just as no other single-moment creationist theory can. |
Am I the only one who sees a slight contradiction here? After it's been disproven, because it can't be disproven
Originally posted by gcle2003
And, just for the record, why the personal dig? |
I could ask you, why the blatant attack against people of faith? As a side note I find it quite disgraceful that gcle's open personal insult towards praetor was ignored. In addition, targetting me in "every thread you both participate in". Seems less than impartial, but I'm sure you have your reasons.
Edited by Zaitsev - 10-Feb-2007 at 21:48
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pekau
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Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 01:42 |
Originally posted by Zagros
I don't mean to single you out, Zaitsev, but please end your vendetta! It has become somewhat tiresome to see the continuation of this conflict in every thread the both of you participate in.
Many thanks. |
I am afraid that science-religion debate has been going on ever since the Age of Renassiance... and is still continued today. That would be a difficult demand. Could one get banned for their religious ideas?
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Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 01:51 |
Not directly...
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pekau
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Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 02:02 |
Originally posted by gcle2003
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
I think thats just being stubborn
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That too.
If you abandon faith just because you're proven wrong, what's the point of having faith? |
As you have pointed it out in many of my World War II debate, I think the usage of "if" is well... dangerous for the topic. I could use if to prove anything. If Omar al Hashim was a hamster, his favorite food is pie. If pekau was 1000kg MacDonald fan, his dream would be to live in MacDonald shop. But that's beside the point.
But I will take your challenge. Even if religion was bunch of lies and God did not existed, I would still be religious. Why? Christianity improved my life for the better. Its teaching, its spiritual inspiration that science cannot explain entered to my heart... and I strive to become better person everyday due to religion. I also recall that Bible was another prime resource I used to improve my English as well.... because the Bible is a very difficult book and its teaching promised that whoever that sincerely reads the Bible would be enlightened. And I have. I have great interest not only in religion, but history, math, chemistry, physics, biology, philosophy, and other studies that cry out the greatness of God. You got to admit that even if Bible was a fallacy... it's a brilliantly written book. Even if science today somehow proved that God did not existed, I would still have faith. Proven or disproven, I am very happy about my life because of the Bible's impact to my life. It's a joy, not due to brainwashing, to follow the path of God. If you haven't, I am sorry to hear that.
So there's the point of faith, assuming that God does not exist.
But if you were wrong... well, I wish you the best luck. Trust me, you will be needing it.
You have nothing to lose if you have a religion. simple math. Your fate would be still the same like other non-believers. But if you have a religion, then you would have a better chance to enjoy the afterlife.
People argue that the Bible is bunch of lies made up by the Christians. Well, I am unsure about this accusation. I have never ever seen anyone who doubts the writings of Homer, Plato and other great writers of the ancient times... that were written as old as Bible. So what is the main cause of the doubt? Not the account of Bible. The supernaturals. They can admit that Adam and Eve existed. They can accept that Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt. They can accept that Jesus was real. But they cannot explain the divinity of God rationally. Due to their lack of knowledge, they call it blasphemy. When Einstein invented the Theory of Relatively, no one believed him because they could not explain rationally. I can assure you that none of the members in AE forum can rationall understand the Quantum Theory or Theory of Relatively simply because not many minds cannot rationally understand it. Worse, it's not even a completed theory. There are so many gaps and exceptions.
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