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mamikon
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Topic: KARS-AKHALKALAKI-TBILISI-BAKU RAILWAY DEAL Posted: 27-Jan-2007 at 16:43 |
Originally posted by bulldog
Try reading Thomas Goltz or the countless international media reports and even UN resolutions regarding the matter.
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Are you joking me? that site is all you could come up with? (may I suggest tallarmeniantale.com?) an excerpt from that site " Armenians
stage Sumgayit killings with KGB help"
need I continue?
Thomas Goltz was the author of "Azerbaijan Diary"... have you actually read the book? he makes it clear that he is biased against Armenians.
Can you please show where it says that Armenia killed 30,000 Azeri civilians, if you cant , then stop your incessant lies.
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Bulldog
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Posted: 27-Jan-2007 at 16:50 |
Oh sure and next your gonna whip up conspiracies that he's a "Psuedo-Turk"
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
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mamikon
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Posted: 27-Jan-2007 at 16:53 |
Originally posted by bulldog
Why does Armenia have any more trust for Russian than Turkey?
Russia promoted and financed the idea of "Greater Armenia, Sea to
Sea", they helped arm and when they moved into the Souther Caucus had
Armenian regiments. They "promised" support to Armenia and gained
trust. But the Russians sold out the Armenian forces especially after
the revolution, stayed in Armenia and made it a part of the Soviets.
What has Russia ever done for Armenia? from my perspective Russia
likes to pretend that she is loyal and a friend but when the going
get's tough doesn hesitate to leave her alone. |
First of all, the Russians have never tried to wipe out the Armenain race off the face of the Earth Clearly you history is kinda off...Russians did not "stay" in Armenia, they left (I wish they had stayed). The Russian Caucasus army wa recalled right after he revolution to fight the Reds. The Communists (with the help of Armenian Communists) then attacked Armenia during the Armenian-Turkish War), and Armenia became part of the SU. But then again, the Communists took not only Armenia, but also Azerbaijan, Georgia, Ukraine, Belorussia, Central Asia, etc...Armenia was not special. Communists had their low points in history of Armenia, but they have also done great deeds. Armenia became industrialized (sadly most of it went to ruin post-collapse) and became one of the riches segments of the Soviet Union. No more war, no poverty, education for everyone...many more From your perspective Armenia should drop Russia and ally with Turkey?
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mamikon
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Posted: 27-Jan-2007 at 16:55 |
Originally posted by bulldog
Oh sure and next your gonna whip up conspiracies that he's a "Psuedo-Turk |
no, he is American. If you had actually read the book, maybe I could discuss it with you, but alas...you are commenting on something you have not read (not that this comes as a surprise to me)
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 27-Jan-2007 at 18:02 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
It is funny how you always victimize yourselves so as to justify all
your crimes against Azeri Turks as part of your fight for survival.
You
have 140 thousand Karabakh Armenian's on the one hand now enjoying the
stolen properties and lands of their former neighbours, 800 thousand
Azeri Turks on the other languishing in misery as refugees. This war
for them was an illegal occupation that drove them out of their
homeland, it was a war in which they fought for their right to live and
survive on their own land, a land that the Armenian state has taken
from them merely because they were born Turkish.
For so long as
Armenia continues to violate these people's fundamental human rights,
for so long as she believes that brute force justifies the looting and
stealing of the land and property of innocent people due to their
ethnic origin, the border should remain sealed and the economic
isolation should remain intact.
Opening the border would mean
for example that the occupiers would be able to sell their agricultural
products, grown on stolen Azeri land. That is unacceptable.
Normalization of the situation in Karabakh is a prerequisite to any
normalization of relations. |
I'm not talking about it from some sort of moral point of view.
The mentality of the soldiers is as such. The ones on the Armenian side
believe its for survival while its not the same for the Azeri soldiers,
or else the Azeri army, with more numbers and better equipment,
wouldn't retreat. They bombed Stepanakert for around 100 days straight,
completely destroying the city, and the Armenian residents (not
soldiers) still didn't leave. My comment had nothing to do
with the moral conduct of both sides, but about the mentality of the
fighters on each side.
I'm not here to discuss the intricacies of the
war so lets continue this via PM if you wish (I don't mind discussing).
Originally posted by Mortaza
What can USA offer us with Turkey? if Turkey loses support of USA, be sure you are going to see a free kurdistan a decade after
an exit from russian pressure? and some economic benefits for ROA? |
An exit from Russian pressure and an entrance to Turkish-Azeri
pressure. As much as I dislike Russian influence and support the
opening of the Turkish and Azeri borders, depending mainly on Turkey in
the region is a very bad idea for Armenia. But if you mean it gives
Armenia an alternative to some of Russia's policies, then sure I
agree. Russia won't be so mean if Armenia can go somewhere else for
help.
Originally posted by Bulldog
Why does Armenia have any more trust for Russian than Turkey? |
Well, Armenia and Turkey disagree on issues which are
sensitive to
both societies, while eastern Armenia (present Armenia) has been under
Russia's thumb for centuries. Its natural. Plus Russia never deported
Armenians en masse even when Armenians were fighting against them. On
what basis should Armenia
trust Turkey, let alone trust it more than Russia?
Originally posted by Bulldog
from my perspective Russia likes
to pretend that she is loyal and a friend but when the going get's
tough doesn hesitate to leave her alone. |
Yes we can completely agree on this. Did you know that Russia did to
Armenia the same thing it did to Georgia and Ukraine, doubling the
price of petrol. After Armenia discussed it with them, the only
concession they gave was to delay the price increase by 3 months. They
treated Armenia, arguably the most loyal country to Russia, exactly the
same as countries which had revolutions to drive Russian influence out.
Russia is like the best friend who is applauded for being a ladies man,
then has sex with your sister and thinks its okay.
Originally posted by mamikon
Totally agree, but I have only our government to blame...they are not
played their cards against Russia well, maybe because Russia enables
Kocharian and his band to keep power...probably Sargsyan is going to
win the next rigged presidential election with another 10 years of
corrupt mafiosi rule (unfortunate but true)...if only another color
revolution took place and kicked them out (mind you, a color revolution
DOES NOT have to be against Russia) |
The army (at least soldiers that I talked to) were very unhappy
about the government. Someone needs to stage a mass mutiny. Imagine
Kocharian's face when Armenian tanks are pointing at his palace. Too
bad Russia will probably send in its army to protect its girlfriend.
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Bulldog
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Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 08:18 |
Mamikon
First of all, the Russians have never tried to wipe out the Armenain race off the face of the Earth
Clearly you history is kinda off...Russians did not "stay" in Armenia, they left (I wish they had stayed). The Russian Caucasus army wa recalled right after he revolution to fight the Reds.
That's what I mean, initially the Russian army was backing the Armenians. Much like Western powers were backing the non-Muslim Balkan nations and encouraging uprisings there followed by their financial and millitary support.
The problem was after the revolution, Russia's priorities changed and they didn't care about "Greater Armenia" projects much anymore.
After the Armenian-Turkish war, the Kars deal was signed between Armenia and Turkey and later the region fell under Soviet hegenomy.
The Communists (with the help of Armenian Communists) then attacked Armenia during the Armenian-Turkish War), and Armenia became part of the SU. But then again, the Communists took not only Armenia, but also Azerbaijan, Georgia, Ukraine, Belorussia, Central Asia, etc...Armenia was not special.
Communists had their low points in history of Armenia, but they have also done great deeds. Armenia became industrialized (sadly most of it went to ruin post-collapse) and became one of the riches segments of the Soviet Union. No more war, no poverty, education for everyone...many more
Alot of people in post-Soviet countries have a love-hate relationship regarding them.
From your perspective Armenia should drop Russia and ally with Turkey?
Well if the Russia-Armenia partnership is in Armenia's benefit then ofcourse it shouldn't but what exactly has Russia ever done for Armenia? how does this benefit Armenia?
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
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DayI
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Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 09:27 |
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
Originally posted by Mortaza
What can USA offer us with Turkey? if Turkey loses support of USA, be sure you are going to see a free kurdistan a decade after
an exit from russian pressure? and some economic benefits for ROA? |
An exit from Russian pressure and an entrance to Turkish-Azeri
pressure. As much as I dislike Russian influence and support the
opening of the Turkish and Azeri borders, depending mainly on Turkey in
the region is a very bad idea for Armenia. But if you mean it gives
Armenia an alternative to some of Russia's policies, then sure I
agree. Russia won't be so mean if Armenia can go somewhere else for
help. |
If Armenia tries to escape from Russian pressure, they will benefit more economically then they have benefit from Russia. Russia is far away from Armenia while Turkey and his allies are only neighbor of Armenia wich he can benefit by using them while now he cant (only acces trough iran doesnt help much). Good relations with Turkey-Armenia-Azerbaycan (maybe also Georgia) means economical improving of eastern side for Turkey, not only Turkey certainly Armenia will benefit it most by maybe returning of diaspora Armenians and also the main support that it will get from USA.
Escaping of Russian pressure will not get Armenia in trouble (well maybe the turn-back of karabagh), it will get Russia in trouble because they will loose their foothold and in caucasia. Most probably the Russian bases who are allready in Armenia will turn into US-american bases :)
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mamikon
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Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 10:50 |
Originally posted by bulldog
That's what I mean, initially the Russian army was backing the
Armenians. Much like Western powers were backing the non-Muslim Balkan
nations and encouraging uprisings there followed by their financial and
millitary support.
The problem was after the revolution, Russia's priorities changed
and they didn't care about "Greater Armenia" projects much anymore.
After the Armenian-Turkish war, the Kars deal was signed between
Armenia and Turkey and later the region fell under Soviet hegenomy. |
What????? Initially, the Russian army was fighting the Ottoman Army in this little war called World WAr I, Armenia had absolutely nothing to do with it. The Russian army withdrew, because of the Revolution, not because they wanted to backstab Armenia. For a person who insults another (apesako) for thinking that the world revolves around Armenia, you seem to be doing the same. As with the Kars treaty, yes they did backstab Armenia. Stalin gave the Armenian lands to Turkey, and received Adjaria for his own home country. Moreover, they still thought they would get Ataturk as an ally against the west. This fact however is not going to make Armenia drop Russia as an ally, especially when there is no one else to ally to in a region surrounded by enemies.
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mamikon
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Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 11:05 |
Originally posted by bulldog
Well if the Russia-Armenia partnership is in Armenia's benefit then
ofcourse it shouldn't but what exactly has Russia ever done for
Armenia? how does this benefit Armenia? |
I dont know any details, but Russia is Armenia's largest trade partner.
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DayI
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Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 13:04 |
Originally posted by mamikon
Originally posted by bulldog
Well if the Russia-Armenia partnership is in Armenia's benefit then
ofcourse it shouldn't but what exactly has Russia ever done for
Armenia? how does this benefit Armenia? |
I dont know any details, but Russia is Armenia's largest trade partner.
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Very normal because Russia is the main supporter of Armenia's regime.
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mamikon
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Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 13:57 |
very true
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 15:57 |
Originally posted by DayI
If Armenia tries to escape from Russian pressure, they will benefit
more economically then they have benefit from Russia. Russia is far
away from Armenia while Turkey and his allies are only neighbor of
Armenia wich he can benefit by using them while now he cant (only acces
trough iran doesnt help much). |
If Armenia has an alternative partner to trade with (Turkey),
Russia will be more generous in its policies toward Armenia. The reason
they are not generous now is because Russia is Armenia's only real
trading partner besides Iran (which is being sanctioned, and there is
only one main road which connects Armenia-Iran, limiting the trade they
can conduct). My only point is that having Turkey as the main trading
partner for Armenia (substituting Russia) is not good because there is
no trust between the two countries. Armenia doesn't want to be at the
whim of the nationalists in Turkey. They will make ridiculous demands
and threaten to cut off trade, in which scenario, Armenia will be
stranded with Russia saying "I told you so". The reason I don't mention
Azerbaijan in the equation is because they will be on the same page as
Turkey.
Armenia should look at Turkey as an alternative to Russia when
Russia does not want to treat us nicely. Another advantage to having
trade with Turkey-Azerbaijan is having pipelines and railways which are
more efficient than diverting north through Georgia. The shortest
distance between two points is a straight line
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance
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DayI
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Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 19:50 |
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
Originally posted by DayI
If Armenia tries to escape from Russian pressure, they will benefit
more economically then they have benefit from Russia. Russia is far
away from Armenia while Turkey and his allies are only neighbor of
Armenia wich he can benefit by using them while now he cant (only acces
trough iran doesnt help much). |
If Armenia has an alternative partner to trade with (Turkey),
Russia will be more generous in its policies toward Armenia. The reason
they are not generous now is because Russia is Armenia's only real
trading partner besides Iran (which is being sanctioned, and there is
only one main road which connects Armenia-Iran, limiting the trade they
can conduct). |
Russia self doesn't want his former colonies to have close ties with USA or his allies, colonies who wanted to get out of russian pressure used soros funds (georgia, kyrgyzistan, uzbekistan tried but failed). You do know very well a handful students cant change a regime in those country's, government people also wanted this they used students uprise as excuse. So to secure Armenia from soros-funded-uprising AND preventing of any invasion by Azerbaijan, Russia doubled his military personnel out there.
My only point is that having Turkey as the main trading
partner for Armenia (substituting Russia) is not good because there is
no trust between the two countries. Armenia doesn't want to be at the
whim of the nationalists in Turkey. They will make ridiculous demands
and threaten to cut off trade, in which scenario, Armenia will be
stranded with Russia saying "I told you so". The reason I don't mention
Azerbaijan in the equation is because they will be on the same page as
Turkey. |
Ofcourse I dont say Armenia should be like what's Georgia is today, they should be following neutral politics as his big brother Turkey :) Nationalists dont have any claims on Armenia (except karabagh for sure), they only have problems of the claims by the (should i say nationalistic) Armenians.
Armenia should look at Turkey as an alternative to Russia when
Russia does not want to treat us nicely. Another advantage to having
trade with Turkey-Azerbaijan is having pipelines and railways which are
more efficient than diverting north through Georgia. The shortest
distance between two points is a straight line
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Not only Turkey, they should open their borders to whole world but mainly to their neighbors by trowing the tashnak-politic views into the garbage.
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Mortaza
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Posted: 29-Jan-2007 at 04:37 |
I really do not believe that any Armenian would drop Russian friendhsip in favor of Turkish (evne with US in the back)...there is just no trust.
Indeed, but It would help ROA to become more independent from Russia..
With rrespect to Kurds being landblocked...they have borders with other countries as well, not only Turkey.
Yep, iraq, iran and syria.(ROA had other borders too, It did not help ROA much.)
I believe it would weaken US-Turkey ties, with no effect on Turkish decision to recognize the Genocide whatsoever...The worse the US-Turkish relations, the better for ROA
Dont believe it much, a pro-russian and pro-iranian Turkey will become worse for ROA.
Totally agree, but I have only our government to blame...they are not played their cards against Russia well, maybe because Russia enables Kocharian and his band to keep power...probably Sargsyan is going to win the next rigged presidential election with another 10 years of corrupt mafiosi rule (unfortunate but true)...if only another color revolution took place and kicked them out (mind you, a color revolution DOES NOT have to be against Russia)
Do they have other alternatives? They should bow to Russian wish. Infact I think, karabak problem would be never solved. It is against russian interests.
My only point is that having Turkey as the main trading partner for Armenia (substituting Russia) is not good because there is no trust between the two countries. Armenia doesn't want to be at the whim of the nationalists in Turkey. They will make ridiculous demands and threaten to cut off trade, in which scenario, Armenia will be stranded with Russia saying "I told you so". The reason I don't mention Azerbaijan in the equation is because they will be on the same page as Turkey.
Now, you cannot flee from this. If Turkey open borders and trade began, Turkey will become main trade partner with ROA. ROA longest borders are with Turkey and Azerbaijan. So If You dont want this, you should not open borders with Turkey.
Also, after building of pipelines and railways over ROA and a large trade, Turkey cannot blockade ROA. Trade is a two sided sword, It is not much useful weapon.
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mamikon
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Posted: 29-Jan-2007 at 05:19 |
Originally posted by Mortaza
Indeed, but It would help ROA to become more independent from Russia.. |
But more dependent on Turkey
Originally posted by Mortaza
Yep, iraq, iran and syria.(ROA had other borders too, It did not help ROA much.) |
ROA had two borders, collapsed post-soviet economy, a very destructive
earthquke pre-collapse, low population, not much natural resources.
Kurds have oil, and lots of it.
Originally posted by Mortaza
Dont believe it much, a pro-russian and pro-iranian Turkey will become worse for ROA. |
Doesnt Turkey have good relations with Iran and Russia today also?
Edited by mamikon - 29-Jan-2007 at 05:20
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Mortaza
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Posted: 29-Jan-2007 at 05:37 |
But more dependent on Turkey
Indeed... But depending two country is absolutely better than depending one country.
ROA had two borders, collapsed post-soviet economy, a very destructive earthquke pre-collapse, low population, not much natural resources. Kurds have oil, and lots of it.
do you think kurds suffered less? Oil is only thing they have and It goes from Turkey.
Doesnt Turkey have good relations with Iran and Russia today also?
why do you think Russia need you?
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mamikon
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Posted: 29-Jan-2007 at 05:43 |
Originally posted by Mortaza
Indeed... But depending two country is absolutely better than depending one country. |
Very true, however not at the cost of very painful concessions.
Originally posted by Mortaza
why do you think Russia need you? |
More or less, the same reason why US needs you
Originally posted by Mortaza
do you think kurds suffered less? Oil is only thing they have and It goes from Turkey |
no, they did not suffer less. However there are many of them, and thus they are strong.
Oil goes from Turkey?
Also, the events that befell Armenia were in a 5 years margin...not 100 years
Edited by mamikon - 29-Jan-2007 at 05:47
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Bulldog
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Posted: 30-Jan-2007 at 15:24 |
West looks to bypass Russia for energy
By Alex Spillius
Last Updated: 2:01am GMT 30/01/2007
Obscure republics of the former Soviet Union have taken centre stage in the new Cold War: the struggle to secure supplies of oil and natural gas.
Last month, without much ceremony but with huge ambition, engineers in Azerbaijan opened the taps at the Shah Deniz gas field in the Caspian Sea that should in the future supply western Europe. For now, it passes through Georgia into Turkey, circumventing two conflict zones, but, crucially, by--passing Russia altogether. |
For Azerbaijan, a country of just eight million people still struggling to remove the Russian yoke, the opening represented a leap forward. For Europe and America, it was a triumph over Moscow.
Russia, emboldened by record energy prices and Vladimir Putin's muscular presidency, is using its vast resources it sits on 25 per cent of the world's proven gas reserves as a blunt political weapon.
Last winter it turned off the gas to Ukraine in a row over prices, leaving millions to shiver. It did the same to another former Soviet republic, Belarus, in December, shutting an oil pipeline that supplies much of south-eastern Europe.
The breaks in supply were brief but the damage to the reputation of Gazprom, the Kremlin-controlled energy giant, was long lasting. In Europe, which receives a quarter of its gas and crude oil from Russia, the dangers of relying on a narrow range of sources were brought home.
As a riposte to Russian belligerence, the opening of the South Caucasus pipeline, which is run by BP from Shah Deniz, could not have been better, despite initial technical problems that have seen gas output stopped twice. BP also operates a parallel oil pipeline, the 1,100-mile BTC (Baku-Tblisi-Ceyhan), which came on stream last year.
"Azerbaijan has wanted for a long time to look west and this gave them the chance to realign," said Peter Davies, the chief economist at BP.
America leant considerable political backing to the project. Daniel Fried, an assistant secretary of state at the State Department, said: "It is important to develop multiple routes and non-Russian routes, but that doesn't mean anyone is going after the Russians. Russia will be a major supplier to Europe but transparency is critical."
Washington hopes that encouraging competition in markets around Russia will encourage reform there.
"We are trying to convince the Russians we mean what we say about open systems and that there is a lot of money in it. They are going to make billions of dollars, it's just a question of in what manner," said Mr Fried.
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The oil pipeline from Azerbaijan to Georgia
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This month the EU issued a dramatic review of energy policy, which demanded cuts in greenhouse gas emissions and stressed the need for closer ties with central Asia and the Caucasus "to facilitate the transport of Caspian energy resources to the EU".
The Caspian Sea's other -littoral states include Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan, which, thanks to the BTC and South Caucasus pipelines, now also have an opportunity to bypass their traditional master, Russia, which has often paid prices lower than those in European markets.
Both countries co-operate with US oil giants on exploration, while last Thursday, Kazakhstan and a group of international oil companies signed a memorandum of understanding on exporting oil through the BTC.
Russia has hit back at recalcitrant former satellites Mr Putin has mentioned doubling gas prices for Azerbaijan but his options may be limited. Norway, a major gas supplier to Britain, provides a reliable alternative and Turkey, which is keen to join the EU, has ambitions to become a mass distribution centre for gas and liquid natural gas, which is shipped principally from Algeria and Egypt.
Another proposal, the Nabucco pipeline, would begin in Turkey, receiving gas from various sources and sending it to Austria. "Diversification is the name of the game," said a spokesman for OMV, the Austrian conglomerate leading the proposal. "Everybody wants to avoid depending on one source."
Edited by Bulldog - 30-Jan-2007 at 15:25
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
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DayI
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Posted: 30-Jan-2007 at 16:40 |
Bye bye Armenia, this time even Russia cant save you
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 01:36 |
Originally posted by DayI
Bye bye Armenia, this time even Russia cant save you |
If Azerbaijan's "goal", so-to-speak, is to
retake Karabakh, how are they going to defend a pipeline which spans
through miles of emptiness in a state of war? Does anyone know how
close this pipeline is to the Armenian border or to other "hot zones"
in the region?
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance
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