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Topic: R1a1/M17's origins:South Asia? Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 04:25 |
Did M17 originate in South Asia?
p. 16-7 "The most common Y-chromosomal lineage among Indians, R1a, also occurs away from India in populations of diverse linguistic and geographic affiliation. It is widespread in central Asian Turkic-speaking populations and in eastern European Finno-Ugric and Slavic speakers and has also been found less frequently in populations of the Caucasus and the Middle East and in Sino-Tibetan populations of northern China (Rosser et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2000; Karafet et al. 2001; Nebel et al. 2001;Weale et al. 2001). No clear consensus yet exists about the place and time of its origins. From one side, it has been regarded as a genetic marker linked with the recent spread of Kurgan culture that supposedly originated in southern Russia/Ukraine and extended subsequently to Europe, central Asia, and India during the period 3,0001,000 B.C. (Passarino et al. 2001; Quintana Murci et al. 2001; Wells et al. 2001). Alternatively, an Asian source (Zerjal et al. 1999) or a deeper Palaeolithic time depth of ∼15,000 years before present for the defining M17 mutation has been suggested (Semino et al. 2000; Wells et al. 2001). Interestingly, the high frequency of the M17 mutation seems to be concentrated around the elevated terrain of central and western Asia. In central Asia, its frequency is highest (>50%) in the highlands among Tajiks, Kyrgyz, and Altais and drops down to <10% in the plains among the Turkmenians and Kazakhs (Wells et al. 2001; Zerjal et al. 2002). Our low STR diversity estimate of haplogroup R1a in central Asians is also consistent with the low diversities found by Zerjal et al.(2002) and suggests a recent founder effect or drift being the reason for the high frequency of M17 in southeastern central Asia. In Pakistan, except for the Hazara, who are supposedly recent immigrants in the region, the frequency of M17 was similarly high in the upper and lower courses of the Indus River valley (Qamar et al. 2002). The frequency of R1a drops from ∼30% in eastern provinces to <10% in the western parts of Iran (Quintana-Murci et al. 2001). Both Pakistanis and Iranians showed STR variances as high as those of Indians, when compared with the lower values in European and central Asian populations. Unexpectedly, both southern Indian tribal groups examined in this study carried M17. The presence of different STR haplotypes and the relatively high frequency of R1a in Dravidian-speaking Chenchus (26%) make M17 less likely to be the marker associated with male Indo-Aryan intruders in the area. Moreover, in two previous studies involving southern Indian tribal groups such as the Valmiki from Andhra Pradesh (Ramana et al. 2001) and the Kallar from Tamil and Nadu (Wells et al. 2001), the presence of M17 was also observed, suggesting that M17 is widespread in tribal southern Indians.
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Zagros
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Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 08:45 |
No, it is not the most common among Indians. It is the most common in north west India/Pakistan IIRC.
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Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 08:31 |
Originally posted by Zagros
No, it is not the most common among Indians. It is the most common in north west India/Pakistan IIRC. |
My question was regarding the origins of R1a1 Zagros.
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maqsad
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Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 16:26 |
The problem with DNA studies is that they only take a couple of hundred samples from a population of millions when they should be taking thousands of samples at least from both urban and rural populations.
And then the researchers have all these maps drawn up that make it look like everyone on the globe has been tagged but in reality the sample database is way way to small to pick up tiny mutations that can give proper clues as to where every single type of gene really originated geographically speaking.
I think in 4 or 5 years we will start seeing better studies conducted with larger samples as the tests get cheaper and interest increases in asian communities.
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kush_boy2003
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Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 06:32 |
it is common in india. 60% in UP chamars and overall highest in UP/Haryana/Punjab.
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Vivek Sharma
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Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 06:43 |
Originally posted by Xolotl1
Originally posted by Zagros
No, it is not the most common among Indians. It is the most common in north west India/Pakistan IIRC. |
My question was regarding the origins of R1a1 Zagros. |
He does'nt even seem to know what North western India is.
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TeldeInduz
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Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 12:50 |
Originally posted by kush_boy2003
it is common in india. 60% in UP chamars and overall highest in UP/Haryana/Punjab. |
If R1a1 originated from anywhere in the subcontinent it would have been from Pakistan, since it's age has been estimated to be much older than that found in India. No good proof is available for where it originated.
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explorer6
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Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 11:44 |
The haplotype is more diverse in tribes and lower castes and less diverse as one goes up the caste system.
Thanseem et al. released a study recently showing some 0 haplogroup in brahmins. Wonder which particular castes were involved.
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TeldeInduz
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Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 14:15 |
Originally posted by explorer6
The haplotype is more diverse in tribes and lower castes and less diverse as one goes up the caste system |
a link for this?
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maqsad
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Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 18:40 |
Are these DNA tests supposed to become a lot more sophisticated and cheaper in the next few years? I was thinking of getting one done but the good ones seem to cost $1500 or so and the $99 ones just either ID your Y or your mtDNA or something...and ignore the other 99.9% of you.
I mean if someone pays $99 and all they find out is which one of about 5 or 6 major genotypes[from their area] they have then is it really even worth it?
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mard
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Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 21:52 |
i dont beleive these DNA tests at all. They are so poorly done. i so much agree with maqsad. To me 90% of indians dont look like people of eastern europe or even iran for that matter.
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explorer6
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Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 17:15 |
Originally posted by TeldeInduz
Originally posted by explorer6
The haplotype is more diverse in
tribes and lower castes and less diverse as one goes up the caste
system |
a link for this? |
Sanghamitra Sengupta et al. (2006), Polarity
and Temporality of High-Resolution Y-Chromosome Distributions in India
Identify Both Indigenous and Exogenous Expansions and Reveal Minor
Genetic Influence of Central Asian Pastoralists, American Journal of Human Genetics, 78:202-221
Tribal Indian r1a1 has higher diversity than any other group tested in the world.
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TeldeInduz
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Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 05:29 |
Originally posted by explorer6
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Where does it say in that paper that "Tribal Indian r1a1 has higher diversity than any other group tested in the world."
R1a1 did not originate from India under any circumstances. It might have originated in Pakistan if it did originate in South Asia, but it might also have originated in Eastern Europe. But not from India at all. The frequency of R1a1 is also much higher in Pakistan than in India. Here is a map of the STR variance showing that Pakistan is a more likelier origin of R1a1 than India.
Edited by TeldeInduz - 16-Nov-2006 at 05:39
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Vivek Sharma
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Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 06:07 |
Ah ! But pakistan is just a few year old product of India, since you yourself say it may have originated in Pakistan, it cannot be differentiated from the parent country, India, since pakistan is just a few year old anamoly!!!!!!!!!!
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explorer6
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Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 18:20 |
Originally posted by TeldeInduz
Originally posted by explorer6
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Where does it say in that paper that "Tribal Indian r1a1 has higher diversity than any other group tested in the world."
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Other studies already show that r1a1 has higher variance in South Asia than other areas.
The table showing the compared variance in India:
Y-Microsatellite Variances Pooled over 10 Loci within HGs R1a1 and R2
SAMPLE | VARIANCE (NO.) OF
Y MICROSATELLITE
BY HG |
R1a1-M17 | R2-M124 |
India: |
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Tribal | .39 (12) | .34 (21) |
Muslim | .22 (11) | .19 (6) |
Upper caste | .26 (56) | .24 (20) |
Middle caste | .22 (15) | .25 (12) |
Lower caste | .36 (20) | .35 (9) |
All castes | .28 (91) | .27 (41) |
Pakistan | .36 (43) | .33 (13) |
Turkey | .25 (36) | .34 (5) |
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v78n2/42812/42812.tb12.html
Notice variance is higher in tribals followed by lower castes. On the
other hand, upper castes are higher than middle castes. Pakistan is
equal with Indian lower castes but have lower variance than Indian
tribals.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 18:30 |
Ah ! But pakistan is just a few year old product of India, since you
yourself say it may have originated in Pakistan, it cannot be
differentiated from the parent country, India, since pakistan is just a
few year old anamoly!!!!!!!!!! |
I consider that trolling Vivek.
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TeldeInduz
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Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 19:12 |
Originally posted by explorer6
Originally posted by TeldeInduz
Originally posted by explorer6
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Where does it say in that paper that "Tribal Indian r1a1 has higher diversity than any other group tested in the world." |
Other studies already show that r1a1 has higher variance in South Asia than other areas. The table showing the compared variance in India:
Y-Microsatellite Variances Pooled over 10 Loci within HGs R1a1 and R2
SAMPLE |
VARIANCE (NO.) OF Y MICROSATELLITE BY HG |
R1a1-M17 |
R2-M124 |
India: |
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Tribal |
.39 (12) |
.34 (21) |
Muslim |
.22 (11) |
.19 (6) |
Upper caste |
.26 (56) |
.24 (20) |
Middle caste |
.22 (15) |
.25 (12) |
Lower caste |
.36 (20) |
.35 (9) |
All castes |
.28 (91) |
.27 (41) |
Pakistan |
.36 (43) |
.33 (13) |
Turkey |
.25 (36) |
.34 (5) | http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v78n2/42812/42812.tb12.html
Notice variance is higher in tribals followed by lower castes. On the other hand, upper castes are higher than middle castes. Pakistan is equal with Indian lower castes but have lower variance than Indian tribals.
Voice of the Ancestors
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So what does your table show?
It shows the variances for YSTRs between a sample Pakistani population of 43 people and a sample Indian tribal population of 12 people. Basic statistics will tell you that the variance will be higher in the 12 people group than the 43 people group based solely on the number of data points chosen for each. That table just confirms a HUGE variation in Pakistani R1a1 compared to India. The only comparable one to the Pakistani population there is upper caste Indian, and that has 0.26..That is much less than the Pakistani figure of 0.36.
Why do you think the same paper gives the following map that shows the highest variance in Pakistan and not India? How would you explain this?
Also, if you look at Table 9 in that paper you get the following variances which show about twice as many markers in the Pakistani R1a1 have greater variance than the Indian populations.
Table 9
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SDs of Repeat Numbers at 10 Microsatellite Loci within HGs with Sample Sizes >20, in Various Regions of India and Pakistan
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REGION AND HG (n) |
SD BY MARKER |
DYS19 |
DYS388 |
DYS389AB |
DYS389CD |
DYS390 |
DYS391 |
DYS392 |
DYS393 |
DYS439 |
DYSA7.2 |
Northern India: |
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R1a1 (32) |
.762 |
.369 |
.803 |
.508 |
.581 |
.543 |
.390 |
.309 |
.246 |
.354 |
Eastern India: |
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All H (36) |
.692 |
1.158 |
.893 |
.898 |
.841 |
.525 |
.167 |
.766 |
.756 |
.586 |
O2a (36) |
.398 |
.000 |
.681 |
.319 |
.401 |
.467 |
.232 |
.560 |
.618 |
.554 |
Southern India: |
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F* (30) |
.844 |
.664 |
.740 |
.740 |
1.095 |
.484 |
.640 |
.820 |
.973 |
.858 |
F* and all H (116) |
.720 |
.705 |
.858 |
.657 |
1.010 |
.486 |
.399 |
.773 |
.844 |
.700 |
All H (86) |
.649 |
.260 |
.891 |
.629 |
.937 |
.490 |
.275 |
.569 |
.709 |
.563 |
H1 (62) |
.459 |
.000 |
.459 |
.704 |
.658 |
.409 |
.319 |
.505 |
.696 |
.522 |
J2b2 (21) |
.218 |
.498 |
.590 |
.359 |
.928 |
.632 |
.000 |
.512 |
.680 |
.436 |
L1 (38) |
.434 |
.453 |
.569 |
.000 |
.162 |
.226 |
.311 |
.453 |
.788 |
.437 |
O2a (33) |
.394 |
.174 |
.500 |
.561 |
.242 |
.489 |
.000 |
.517 |
.781 |
.545 |
R1a1 (39) |
.683 |
.223 |
.785 |
.595 |
.686 |
.486 |
.160 |
.354 |
.451 |
.320 |
R2 (22) |
.492 |
.294 |
.610 |
.581 |
.526 |
.213 |
.000 |
.716 |
.703 |
.685 |
Central India: |
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F* and all H (43) |
.575 |
.413 |
.374 |
.764 |
.814 |
.413 |
.457 |
.708 |
.796 |
.674 |
All H (37) |
.229 |
.363 |
.277 |
.702 |
.468 |
.229 |
.000 |
.277 |
.689 |
.676 |
H1 (34) |
.442 |
.247 |
.625 |
.666 |
.466 |
.254 |
.146 |
.247 |
.605 |
.682 |
O2a (21) |
.000 |
.000 |
.598 |
.402 |
.316 |
.463 |
.000 |
.784 |
.301 |
.402 |
Southern Pakistan: |
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R1a1 (29) |
.978 |
.186 |
.736 |
.817 |
.636 |
.509 |
.186 |
.680 |
.622 |
.455 |
Edited by TeldeInduz - 16-Nov-2006 at 19:17
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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explorer6
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Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 21:57 |
Originally posted by TeldeInduz
Originally posted by explorer6
Originally posted by TeldeInduz
Originally posted by explorer6
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Where does it say in that paper that "Tribal Indian r1a1 has higher diversity than any other group tested in the world." |
Other studies already show that r1a1 has higher variance in South Asia than other areas. The table showing the compared variance in India:
Y-Microsatellite Variances Pooled over 10 Loci within HGs R1a1 and R2
SAMPLE |
VARIANCE (NO.) OF Y MICROSATELLITE BY HG |
R1a1-M17 |
R2-M124 |
India: |
|
|
Tribal |
.39 (12) |
.34 (21) |
Muslim |
.22 (11) |
.19 (6) |
Upper caste |
.26 (56) |
.24 (20) |
Middle caste |
.22 (15) |
.25 (12) |
Lower caste |
.36 (20) |
.35 (9) |
All castes |
.28 (91) |
.27 (41) |
Pakistan |
.36 (43) |
.33 (13) |
Turkey |
.25 (36) |
.34 (5) |
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v78n2/42812/42812.tb12.html
Notice
variance is higher in tribals followed by lower castes. On the other
hand, upper castes are higher than middle castes. Pakistan is equal
with Indian lower castes but have lower variance than Indian tribals.
Voice of the Ancestors
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So what does your table show?
It shows the variances for YSTRs between a sample Pakistani
population of 43 people and a sample Indian tribal population of 12
people. Basic statistics will tell you that the variance will be higher
in the 12 people group than the 43 people group based solely on the
number of data points chosen for each.
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Most genetic studies have too small samples, but my claim is backed by
this paper and also by data presented at conferences and discussed by
Stephen Oppenheimer.
Also look at Fig 2 in the following study:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=16893451
Three South Indian tribes with a total sample size of 250 have 46 R1a1
with an STR variance of .53. They used a different method though
than that in the Sengupta et al. study.
Just because the sample is smaller does not mean the variance
will be higher as in the Indian Muslim sample. The total sample of
tribal is not 12 but that is the number that have R1a1.
But overall more samples are needed. R1a1 might originate in Pakistan,
but even there it may be more diverse in lower castes. Yes, there
are Muslim castes in Pakistan which persisted after conversion of
Hindus to Islam.
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Vivek Sharma
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Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 23:48 |
When these originated, pakistan was non existent, so they originated in India.
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TeldeInduz
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Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 06:54 |
Originally posted by explorer6
Most genetic studies have too small samples, but my claim is backed by this paper and also by data presented at conferences and discussed by Stephen Oppenheimer.
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Nope, this is not true. Oppenheimer does believe R1a1 originated in South Asia, but he believe quite clearly that R1a1 originated in Pakistan and not India.
Oppenheimer concludes with two extraordinary conclusions: 'First, that the Europeans' genetic homeland was originally in South Asia in the Pakistan/Gulf region over 50,000 years ago; and second, that the Europeans' ancestors followed at least two widely separated routes to arrive, ultimately, in the same cold but rich garden. The earliest of these routes was the Fertile Crescent. The second early route from South Asia to Europe may have been up the Indus into Kashmir and on to Central Asia, where perhaps more than 40,000 years ago hunters first started bringing down game as large as mammoths.'
Also look at Fig 2 in the following study:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=16893451
Three South Indian tribes with a total sample size of 250 have 46 R1a1 with an STR variance of .53. They used a different method though than that in the Sengupta et al. study.
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And the study you show above does not show Pakistani variances, which as you clearly suggest yourself would be higher to the Sengupta study as they've used a different sampling method!
Just because the sample is smaller does not mean the variance will be higher as in the Indian Muslim sample. The total sample of tribal is not 12 but that is the number that have R1a1.
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It does mean this. If you don't understand what the variance depends on, ask someone who does. If the samples are too small (like in the table you quote from Sengupta but not the table I quoted), your sample variance will be higher because there is greater chance of giving more significance to inaccurate points.
But overall more samples are needed. R1a1 might originate in Pakistan, but even there it may be more diverse in lower castes. Yes, there are Muslim castes in Pakistan which persisted after conversion of Hindus to Islam.
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Indus Vedism did not have castes. This was created in modern day India as any sensible website will tell you. "Pakistanis" were not Hindu either generally, most were Buddhist which did not have a caste system, the rest were Vedic (some people call it Hindu though it wasnt).
Edited by TeldeInduz - 28-Nov-2006 at 07:22
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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