QuoteReplyTopic: Baluchis in Pakistan Posted: 15-Jun-2006 at 15:09
Hi every one im reading a book on Pakistan and it says that In recent years the Balochis have been adversly affected by the economic developments that might have been expected to benefit them. Natural gas fields have been discovered, along with coal, sulfer, and significant sorces of various valuable minerals. The result has been a sudden surge of immigration from other rejions of the country, and the native Balochis have not reaped any great advantage. Quite the contrary, for roadbuilding and immigration have only served to disrupt their traditional war of life. A further bone of contention was the development of grazing lands in east of Balochistan into cultivated fields fed by newly built irrigation canals. This too attracted new settlers, and in 1970 there was a violent uprising among some Balochi tribes. This was eventually suppressed by the army, only to be foolowed by the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, which resulted in thousands of new refugees. The Balochis are now in danger of becoming a minority in their own land. So what do u guys think is this fair or not.
Lets see there has been a President and a Prime Minister from Balochistan.
ANd when you talk of Baloch province you need to differ it from Baloch people. The North of said province is Pashtun, the south is Makarni, ie the Africans who migrated to Pakistan in the middle ages. Only the center is Balochi.
The Baluchis should be able to form their own country from Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan.
The Baluchis should be able to form their own country from Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Zagros that is wishfull thinking. Iran would never give up its part of Balochestan, although you have to give the baloch credit, they're known for getting into skirmishes with the Iranian army. But, even the Baloch people are quite diverse within their lands because you have the brahui, makrani, suleimani and they all speak different languages.
Makarni are not Baloch. They are for want of a better word; Black. They have a different language and culture, and they want their own province. I think they should get it.
The whole Baloch insurgency thing has little support. Everyday a new bunch surrenders.
Makarni are not Baloch. They are for want of a better word; Black. They have a different language and culture, and they want their own province. I think they should get it.
The whole Baloch insurgency thing has little support. Everyday a new bunch surrenders.
Dear I don't think the idea of Zagros and the map of Rajput, is that bad as it is what Afghanistan used to be along the NWFP.
So getting those areas back and integrating them into Afghanistan will make Afghanistan once again a powerful country as they used to be, before the britians devided it into several parts to save themselves from the Patriot Afghans.
But I don't think that a greater Afghanistan would be liked by any of the bordering countries at all specially not by Pakistan as they will lose two of their great provinces and almost 80% of their GAS, and more than 50% of their army personnel (most from NWFP and some of Balochs).
Neither will Iran and India like it as Iran will too lose land and India will I don't think I have to say anything about that.
first of all, the balochis have always been independent from afghanistan, they have their distinct language(s), culture and traditions. They have never been part of 'afghanistan'.
Afghanistan, when it oficially was formed and given its borders, consisted (mostly) of pashtun, (who were the dominant factor and had subdued the people in the northern afghan territories ) tajik, uzbek & hazaras. The pashtuns were rulers of the afghan territorium, this means that the other afghan people became "afghan' after they had been conquered by the pashtun, before that they were "tajik", "uzbek" etc. The baluchis weren't between those people.
They have been incorporated now & then within the indian or persian empires. As we all now before 1947 they were "semi"-independent from the british-indian empire, for the biggest part, and almost the rest of their land lay in iran.
The pashtun areas were at first devided by the sikhs(punjabi's) and then definitely and ultimately stayed so under the british indian empire.
Coming back to the baluchis: they have been misfortunate. In recent years the pakistani government has tried to uplift them, but due to lack of enthusiasm/skilled labour/willingness (from the sardars & their folks) /human capital from within the baloch and also due to the mistrust (not entirely unimaginable) the baluchis have had against islamabad, they didn't reap full benefit from the 'development' projects.
This matter has to be addressed by the government with more zeal and wholeheartedness, and insa-allah, the baloch will become more content.
Ultimately they will have to come out of their isolation and become interwoven in the pakistani fabric as the (settled) pashtun areas have been.
I wish them all the best.
p.s. The Pakistan Army consists for more than 75% of Punjabi's (20% pashtun). They are recruited in the same manner.
first of all, the balochis have always been independent from afghanistan, they have their distinct language(s), culture and traditions. They have never been part of 'afghanistan'.
Afghanistan, when it oficially was formed and given its borders, consisted (mostly) of pashtun, (who were the dominant factor and had subdued the people in the northern afghan territories ) tajik, uzbek & hazaras. The pashtuns were rulers of the afghan territorium, this means that the other afghan people became "afghan' after they had been conquered by the pashtun, before that they were "tajik", "uzbek" etc. The baluchis weren't between those people.
They have been incorporated now & then within the indian or persian empires. As we all now before 1947 they were "semi"-independent from the british-indian empire, for the biggest part, and almost the rest of their land lay in iran.
The pashtun areas were at first devided by the sikhs(punjabi's) and then definitely and ultimately stayed so under the british indian empire.
Coming back to the baluchis: they have been misfortunate. In recent years the pakistani government has tried to uplift them, but due to lack of enthusiasm/skilled labour/willingness (from the sardars & their folks) /human capital from within the baloch and also due to the mistrust (not entirely unimaginable) the baluchis have had against islamabad, they didn't reap full benefit from the 'development' projects.
This matter has to be addressed by the government with more zeal and wholeheartedness, and insa-allah, the baloch will become more content.
Ultimately they will have to come out of their isolation and become interwoven in the pakistani fabric as the (settled) pashtun areas have been.
I wish them all the best.
p.s. The Pakistan Army consists for more than 75% of Punjabi's (20% pashtun). They are recruited in the same manner.
Well dear Chaudary first of all thanks for your contribution and wonderful information afterwards I would say that as Rajput has clearly (very much truely) said that Balochistan is an independent country which supported Afghan leaders all over the history.
Dear I don't think that baloches culture is much different than of Afghans (as far as I know about balochs from Afghanistan I really don't know much about Balochs in Iran and Pakistan but still as far as I know they too aren't that different and as I myself am a proud Baloch-Pashtun).
Over history the Balochs and Afghans (which also includes Balochs) has stood side by side and Balochs have never been happier with any nation other than Afghanistan.
So that's why I say it would be a great idea for both Afghans and Balochs to integrate their land so that they both may prosper and succed in their cause, if not tell my how will Balochistan stand on their own while they have taken parts of three major nations (Afghanistan, Iran and Pakistan), who will rule, how would the country procced to the future and how will they try to survive.
Lets say if they integrate with Afghans, pashtuns who are already in majority in Afghanistan do not diffear Balochs from themselves and once both of them get to gather than I am sure that their wouldn't be any sort of ethnical war (as right now Pashtuns are along with a small group of Balochs around 2% of the total population and on the other hand their is a huge alliance of Tajiks, Uzbeks, Turkmen, Hazaras, Iamaqs and other small groups).
So once Pashtuns and Balochs get together and try to rule the country I am sure it won't be difficult to subdue other minority ethnics and all will once again get together which will bring the times of Ahmad Shah Abdali back (he also made Afghanistan of joining different tribes and ethnics together).
For the Pakistan army, currently the Marri and Mengal tribes are the 'top dog' to be recokened with and have been fighting the Pakistan army since the '70s. They want a Baluch state with tribal law (Jirga).
For the Pakistan army, currently the Marri and Mengal tribes are the 'top dog' to be recokened with and have been fighting the Pakistan army since the '70s. They want a Baluch state with tribal law (Jirga).
Only when recently pakistan government tried to integrate and uplift Balochistan more within mainstream pakistan, by introducing more development projects, building of schools etc, the violence started. It actually didn't start rightaway. First the sardars of the marri and mengal tribes (ghaus bux marri, and nawab akbar khan bugti) tried to get a piece of the pie first, as they have been accustomed too. But as the government didn't met their demands, they saw that their power may be slipping away.
These sardars have been known to have kept their people bereft from education, to stay in power.
In the past the pakistani government didn't look to the baluchistan as a priority. They had their hands full with rest of pakistan, and the sardars were happy as well (they were gettin richer, and stayin in power).
Offcourse this wasn't the case in all of baluchistan, as the sardars only ruled certain pockets within baluchistan. And quetta being a mix pashtun/baloch area, and northern balochistan entirely pashtun.
So, the fighting in balochistan started now, almost a year and a half back. As u, rajput, put it, it have been the marri and mengal tribes (not even all branches) , under their leaders, who have been fighting the pakistan army. These tribes only consist of, let's say 5% of baluchistan. About 50% op baluchistan is inhabitated by pashtun, and others (makrani et al).
The reason for these tribes to fight, first of all offcourse they are ordered so by their leaders. Second and most important it is because of the neglection of the baluchi people by the pakistani government, the baluchi's have felt forgotton/misused by the pakistani government. As i told u before, in recent years there have been big uplift programs been implemented, and as a result what u c : "fighting in the areas which are ruled in medieval ways, by their rulers (bugti, marri)" Because the leaders feel threatened by these changes going on in their areas.
So the sardars started this campaign, they never asked for an independent state, they only want more 'autonomy". U can understand why they want that (money).
I hope u got the picture, rajput, but any questions are wellcome.
first of all, the balochis have always been independent from afghanistan, they have their distinct language(s), culture and traditions. They have never been part of 'afghanistan'.
Afghanistan, when it oficially was formed and given its borders, consisted (mostly) of pashtun, (who were the dominant factor and had subdued the people in the northern afghan territories ) tajik, uzbek & hazaras. The pashtuns were rulers of the afghan territorium, this means that the other afghan people became "afghan' after they had been conquered by the pashtun, before that they were "tajik", "uzbek" etc. The baluchis weren't between those people.
They have been incorporated now & then within the indian or persian empires. As we all now before 1947 they were "semi"-independent from the british-indian empire, for the biggest part, and almost the rest of their land lay in iran.
The pashtun areas were at first devided by the sikhs(punjabi's) and then definitely and ultimately stayed so under the british indian empire.
Coming back to the baluchis: they have been misfortunate. In recent years the pakistani government has tried to uplift them, but due to lack of enthusiasm/skilled labour/willingness (from the sardars & their folks) /human capital from within the baloch and also due to the mistrust (not entirely unimaginable) the baluchis have had against islamabad, they didn't reap full benefit from the 'development' projects.
This matter has to be addressed by the government with more zeal and wholeheartedness, and insa-allah, the baloch will become more content.
Ultimately they will have to come out of their isolation and become interwoven in the pakistani fabric as the (settled) pashtun areas have been.
I wish them all the best.
p.s. The Pakistan Army consists for more than 75% of Punjabi's (20% pashtun). They are recruited in the same manner.
Well dear Chaudary first of all thanks for your contribution and wonderful information afterwards I would say that as Rajput has clearly (very much truely) said that Balochistan is an independent country which supported Afghan leaders all over the history.
Dear I don't think that baloches culture is much different than of Afghans (as far as I know about balochs from Afghanistan I really don't know much about Balochs in Iran and Pakistan but still as far as I know they too aren't that different and as I myself am a proud Baloch-Pashtun).
Over history the Balochs and Afghans (which also includes Balochs) has stood side by side and Balochs have never been happier with any nation other than Afghanistan.
So that's why I say it would be a great idea for both Afghans and Balochs to integrate their land so that they both may prosper and succed in their cause, if not tell my how will Balochistan stand on their own while they have taken parts of three major nations (Afghanistan, Iran and Pakistan), who will rule, how would the country procced to the future and how will they try to survive.
Lets say if they integrate with Afghans, pashtuns who are already in majority in Afghanistan do not diffear Balochs from themselves and once both of them get to gather than I am sure that their wouldn't be any sort of ethnical war (as right now Pashtuns are along with a small group of Balochs around 2% of the total population and on the other hand their is a huge alliance of Tajiks, Uzbeks, Turkmen, Hazaras, Iamaqs and other small groups).
So once Pashtuns and Balochs get together and try to rule the country I am sure it won't be difficult to subdue other minority ethnics and all will once again get together which will bring the times of Ahmad Shah Abdali back (he also made Afghanistan of joining different tribes and ethnics together).
Where to start
First of all, as i said earlier, the Baloch have their own language (which is quite different from pashtu, it comes more close to pharsi, or surmanj/kurmanj (language of kurds). Yes, the culture of some people of baluchis may come close to the pashtun culture. This doesn't mean that they should join, or 'integrate', as u put it, afghanistan. About ur wishful thinking of the afghani pashtun's being able to control afghanistan, they can't even control their own areas. I was merely citating history earlier, when i talked about the pashtun domination of afghanistan in history i wasn't pushing for an afghanistan, ruled by pashtun, with help from the baloch in some kind of lugubrious way.
Man, where did u get the idea of some non-afghan people joining afghanistan, with evil plans of subduing the non-pashtun, in joint-effort with the pashtun??!!
Did u know that nowadays there are more pakistani pashtun than afghani? Even the pakistani pashtun's themselves overwhelmingly don't want to join afghanistan, u'r talking about the baloch!!
The balochi's are becoming more and more resentful of the pashtun's, because they are bringing down the balance in balochistan. U would'v known this, if u were a 'real' pakistani baloch.
The baloch used to be a majority in baluchistan, now they have become minority, principally due to pashtun 'invasion' (refugees and others).
Last but not least, another history lesson. The baloch have been mostly independent in their history. Attention: their history only starts in about 1200 or 1400 ad when they migrated to the area inhabitating now. They are in no way 'afghan'. They became pakistani, when pakistan arose.
U know who 'real' afghans were: the pashtun. All the other people living in afghanistan became afghan, when they saw themselves in 'afghan' are, when afghanistans boundaries were formed, and officially agreed upon. (during the 'great game' I think, that was because the british in the south, and the ruskies in the north wanted afghanistan with oficially recognised boundaries, to function as a buffer between the two rivals (this is also the reason why they 'created' the 'wakhan corridor', the people living in this are also were never afghan, buth this way the british indian empire and the russian empire wouldn't be connected through their borders))
The best way for the baloch, for now, to go is the present situation. The irani baloch in iran, the pakistani in pakistan (and the little afghani branch in afghanistan). This is because, as we all know, the 'area' in which they live isn't the most stable one (afghanistan, pakistan, iran). They have been living in this manner for a long time now, and i don't think there is any sincere demand from within the baloch, to alter the status quo.
Any change would lead not only to more instability, but also won't mean any improvement for the baloch. The pakistani baloch will have to improve their situation within pakistan, this is their best chance.
So, the fighting in balochistan started now, almost a year and a half back. As u, rajput, put it, it have been the marri and mengal tribes (not even all branches) , under their leaders, who have been fighting the pakistan army. These tribes only consist of, let's say 5% of baluchistan. About 50% op baluchistan is inhabitated by pashtun, and others (makrani et al).
The So the sardars started this campaign, they never asked for an independent state, they only want more 'autonomy". U can understand why they want that (money).
I hope u got the picture, rajput, but any questions are wellcome.
hmmm...yea I got a picture for you...This black and white picture pretty much sums it all up...but to add insult to injury...
I have solicited and received a response from our Regional Security Officers and they are in agreement: and I am being blunt here, as I see no other way: you are putting yourself and your family at a very grave risk driving through Pakistan and Baluchistan in particular.
They wanted me to stress: Baluchistan is an area of tribal control. It is under tribal law, and no official Americans here are permitted to go there without express permission. When people do, they fly out there and are met by a fully armored vehicle. And that is on trips to Quetta itself, not the outerlying regions. Basically the Pakistani government itself is not in control there, and we find it a little odd they would tell you transiting the area is no problem. Carjackings are very common all over Pakistan--we are extremely skeptical you would make it through with your car, and possibly not with the lives of you and your family.
Tricia Cypher Vice Consul US Consulate General Karachi, Pakistan
Edited by Rajput - 18-Jun-2006 at 19:55
If God did not create the horse, he would not have created the Rajput.
Hi every one im reading a book on Pakistan and it says that In recent years the Balochis have been adversly affected by the economic developments that might have been expected to benefit them. Natural gas fields have been discovered, along with coal, sulfer, and significant sorces of various valuable minerals. The result has been a sudden surge of immigration from other rejions of the country, and the native Balochis have not reaped any great advantage. Quite the contrary, for roadbuilding and immigration have only served to disrupt their traditional war of life. A further bone of contention was the development of grazing lands in east of Balochistan into cultivated fields fed by newly built irrigation canals. This too attracted new settlers, and in 1970 there was a violent uprising among some Balochi tribes. This was eventually suppressed by the army, only to be foolowed by the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, which resulted in thousands of new refugees. The Balochis are now in danger of becoming a minority in their own land. So what do u guys think is this fair or not.
I dont think this is a very good analysis for many reasons. But basically the fighting in Balochistan is of very low intensity. There is perhaps 15 pipe installation blasts a year, perhaps 20 casualties a year at most from a single battle.
The main cause of the fighting are the Sardars of Balochistan. These are basically the last couple of feudal lords who have lost power through changes in the law from years ago. The biggest one was Akbar Bugti, who's now on the run from Pakistan Army - his land which he got illegally and was charging money and services for use of, is now going to be divided up and given to the people of Balochistan, as it should have been done years ago.
These Sardars oppose development of Balochistan because they need to remain in control of Balochistan for their own survival. Too much foreign investment is bad for these one or two Sardars, but good for the majority of the Baloch people, who know it. That is why the PML (Musharraf's party) was so popular in Balochistan in the last election. The investment boom in Balochistan will finish off the Sardars once and for all. They speak in two ways anyway, they claim that Balochistan is ignored by the federal government, but they are also against foreign investment in Balochistan, so they got to go.
As for the gas that comes out of Balochistan, a lot of it does go to other parts of Pakistan, but this is because Balochistan's population is something like 7% of the Pakistani population, so it doesnt need so much gas. People like Bugti were paid very well for the gas that came out of those areas, though that wealth will be distributed to the people more now that he's out the picture. Balochistan is in need of water anyway, as it's a very arid region, unlike some of the other areas.
Balochistan had a referendum and voted to join Pakistan in 1946, when it was formed a year later.
So, the fighting in balochistan started now, almost a year and a half back. As u, rajput, put it, it have been the marri and mengal tribes (not even all branches) , under their leaders, who have been fighting the pakistan army. These tribes only consist of, let's say 5% of baluchistan. About 50% op baluchistan is inhabitated by pashtun, and others (makrani et al).
The So the sardars started this campaign, they never asked for an independent state, they only want more 'autonomy". U can understand why they want that (money).
I hope u got the picture, rajput, but any questions are wellcome.
hmmm...yea I got a picture for you...This black and white picture pretty much sums it all up...but to add insult to injury...
I have solicited and received a response from our Regional Security Officers and they are in agreement: and I am being blunt here, as I see no other way: you are putting yourself and your family at a very grave risk driving through Pakistan and Baluchistan in particular.
They wanted me to stress: Baluchistan is an area of tribal control. It is under tribal law, and no official Americans here are permitted to go there without express permission. When people do, they fly out there and are met by a fully armored vehicle. And that is on trips to Quetta itself, not the outerlying regions. Basically the Pakistani government itself is not in control there, and we find it a little odd they would tell you transiting the area is no problem. Carjackings are very common all over Pakistan--we are extremely skeptical you would make it through with your car, and possibly not with the lives of you and your family.
Tricia Cypher Vice Consul US Consulate General Karachi, Pakistan
Ur 'letter' , by the way dated 2001, merely shows that balochistan, in the non-settled areas is volatile, especially for non-pakistani's, in this case americans. It wouldn't be safe anywhere from marrakecht to india, to roam freely for these people.
And as i have stated earlier, balochistan hasn't been, till recently, the priority for islamabad, that's why in much of balochistan u won't c any government 'control', islamabad just didn't change the system there from 1947 onwards. This doesn't mean that it doesn't fall under pakistani law. The fata areas are/were the only 'area' oficially under tribal law. In case of balochistan the government just wasn't interested in bringing it within mainstream pakistan, as balochi's only contribute 3 % to total pakistani population. Conclusion: too much energy waisted for too little.
The other 'picture' u show, is from a biased source. Ur scource (some 'gedrosian', named after an old empire in the region) isn't clearly the most objective one.
The other 'picture' u show, is from a biased source. Ur scource (some 'gedrosian', named after an old empire in the region) isn't clearly the most objective one.
Shahbash! there is an old saying amongst desis it goes something like this "mulleh ki daud masjid tak" ....first of all I can easily disprove your point of 3% baloch population but i'm not going to even bother more importantly I have a question....tell me are you related to Teldeinduz or does the quality of aruging like a baboon a registered trademark of all fakis? The fact that I completely obliterated your statements of baluchi resistance being recent was too much for you to bare and also realize that your faki army has been at odds end with these baluchis since the '70s...go read about Ramkhani and the BPLF and stop staring at the future of your country in that black and white picture .
Why don't u "easily" disprove my statements first? then throw with smuther. Don't let me start about ur 'brave' urine drinking, penisless army.
THE Indian Army is fitting some of its toughest frontline troops with inflatable penile implants in a bid to boost army morale.
Impotency is becoming a serious concern for the country's lite soldiers stationed in the disputed mountain territory of Jammu and Kashmir. Many of India's special forces are reporting "marriage problems" when they return from their tours of duty.
Doctors at the army's Research and Referral Hospital in Delhi say that the combination of high altitude living and constant stress and exposure to trauma is sapping the sex drive of the soldiers.
Col P. Madhusudhanan, an army urologist at the hospital, says that while many sufferers can be treated successfully with a combination of drugs and psychotherapy, some do require surgical intervention. "For those who don't respond to treatment we now offer an inflatable implant which is inserted into the penis, but we see this very much as a last resort," he said.
It is easy to see why. Not only is the surgery expensive (about 3,500 per implant), the procedure involves sewing a bladder inside the patient's scrotal sac and a small pipe into his penis - the device is operated by squeezing the bladder to pump liquid into the pipe, thus creating an erection.
An earlier procedure involving the insertion of a "semi-rigid rod" had to be abandoned when army doctors found that troops were being left with permanent erections.
The hospital has fitted 12 soldiers with the collapsible penile implant, but Col Madhusudhanan admits that getting proud, battle-hardened troops to admit that they are underperforming in the bedroom has been fraught with difficulty.
"Of course there is some hesitation," said the urologist. "But to a doctor they talk quite openly. With us there is no problem about discussing their medical problem."
However, in the macho world of the Indian Army, wives are not invited to take part in the pre-surgical consultations. "Generally we don't speak to the partners," said Col Madhusudhanan. "We leave that to the soldiers."
While impotency is not uncommon in the Indian Army, doctors say that soldiers serving in the mountains of Jammu and Kashmir are particularly vulnerable because of altitude problems combined with stress.
According to Martin Wilkins, a professor of pharmacology at Hammersmith Hospital, in London, people living at high altitude produce the enzyme phosphodiesterase which restricts blood flow to the penis, causing it to droop. Phosphodiesterase also restricts the ability of the lungs to absorb oxygen, a common complaint among mountaineers. Soldiers patrolling the Line of Control between Indian Kashmir and Pakistan are often described as fighting on the world's highest battlefield "an extreme alpine environment of glaciers, ravines and snow-capped mountains rising to 21,000ft above sea level".
India and Pakistan have been locked in a bitter dispute over the control of Kashmir since the Partition of India in 1947. Although the Indian Army is reluctant to reveal any operational details of its deployment in Kashmir, Pakistan claims that India could have as many as 700,000 troops stationed in the disputed province.
George Fernandes, the Indian defence minister, can only hope that altitude-induced impotency is not spreading along the front line in Kashmir. Otherwise he might be looking at an unforseen - and perhaps embarrassing - blow to India's already massive defence budget
I won't even start about khalistan, kashmir, assam and ton's of other issues. Just wait untill i have more time, then ur bhindi propoganda will all be waisted.
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