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Gharanai
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Topic: Children Market in India Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 17:25 |
I was total shocked to see below information so I would like to know more about it, by saying so I would like to get more information from our Indian users.
So please let me know if it is real, is limited to a certian area or what so ever info added would be highly appreciated.
Trans: "Children holding their prices and demanding every one passing by to buy them. All around India (Baharat) killing of children before there birth and selling of children is rising day after day."
Trans: "Children holding banners saying They are on sale, in a children sale market in Odompur district of Occupied Kashmir. These sellings are mostly caused by Hunger, poor conditions of life and un-employement. The officials have also proved that there are such markets."
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Giannis
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Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 21:16 |
I don't know for India, but unfortunately you can find similar cases throughout Europe. Poor or misfits couples are selling children by internet or by corrupted health care servants to couples that can't have babies. It's pretty sad.
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Rajput
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Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 22:51 |
Originally posted by Giannis
unfortunately you can find similar cases throughout Europe. |
Child slavery is a problem plaguing many countries, not just India and yea Giannis I saw the documentary with regards to Eastern Europeans in Italy, life is cruel for them ....all I can say is that I wouldnt watch that again man...dont have the stomach for it...God save them.
Getting back to the Indian issue..for starters I think India should stop giving crores of rupees of 'humanitarian aid' to nepal and redirect it toward these children. The two main root causes regarding the issue raised by Gharanai are Muslim fanaticism and Brahmanism.
The former are relentlessly out to make India a hell hole and to wipe out whatever tourism is left (leaving the poor people w/o job or food).
The latter have mutated to the extent where they are pretty much monopolizing control over the Indian government, media, armed forces and as well as the economy.
PS. Lets not forget the horny arab sheikhs, whose lust is fullfilled by mullah pimps in india selling them muslim women...its not only cows they export to arabia you know...
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Gharanai
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Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 14:49 |
Originally posted by Rajput
Getting back to the Indian issue..for starters I think India should stop giving crores of rupees of 'humanitarian aid' to nepal and redirect it toward these children. The two main root causes regarding the issue raised by Gharanai are Muslim fanaticism and Brahmanism.
The former are relentlessly out to make India a hell hole and to wipe out whatever tourism is left (leaving the poor people w/o job or food).
The latter have mutated to the extent where they are pretty much monopolizing control over the Indian government, media, armed forces and as well as the economy.
PS. Lets not forget the horny arab sheikhs, whose lust is fullfilled by mullah pimps in india selling them muslim women...its not only cows they export to arabia you know... |
Dear I am really sorry if I have any how hurted you or anyone else as my point was not at all what you thought of, I just wanted to know if there was really such thing going on and really I was not aware of the European market as well, I did know that there are such places in my own country, Pakistan, Iran, UAE and some other central asian countries but didn't know about it in India so I just wanted to assure if the news was right.
Any how I also agree with you about the Arab Sheikhs' lust but Mullah's as a pimp was a new news so thanks for that I have always said that non of the religions in India is practice as it asked of them.
As many pandits in Afghanistan (I am sure that you are aware that there are many Hindus and Sikhs living in Afghanistan) also do the same acts and the worse is that deal inside the Mandirs.
But anyway that's all something apart from this, and dear just don't get everything to yourself always.
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Anujkhamar
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Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 15:29 |
It is obviously absolutly disgraceful, but such things thrive amongst poverty.
I'm not too sure about the "and rising" parts of the translations though Gharanai, i'll have to look up some figures, but i was under the impression that while people on average get richer such things decrease.
The main problem is that the majority of the population growth occurs in poor families. They cant afford contraception so they either abort female feotus' or sell on the child.
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Rajput
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Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 17:26 |
Originally posted by Gharanai
Any how I also agree with you about the Arab Sheikhs' lust but Mullah's as a pimp was a new news so thanks for that I have always said that non of the religions in India is practice as it asked of them. |
most of the 'deals' between sheikhs and indian pimps are made in Hyderabad (India).
Originally posted by gharanai
As many pandits in Afghanistan (I am sure that you are aware that there are many Hindus and Sikhs living in Afghanistan) also do the same acts and the worse is that deal inside the Mandirs. |
Pandits are Brahmins Gharanai hence...brahmanism, but give me an example of what goes on in mandirs over there (most of the indians there are of the trading class not warriors), I would like to know the motive behind it, not that its shocking or anything, i'm sure worst goes on in mandirs in India. I had read an article about this but not in the same context as you are putting it, the father wanted to marry off his daughter so she wouldnt get kidnapped and forced into Islam.
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Anujkhamar
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Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 17:38 |
Originally posted by Rajput
Pandits are Brahmins Gharanai hence...brahmanism, but give me an example of what goes on in mandirs over there (most of the indians there are of the trading class not warriors), I would like to know the motive behind it, not that its shocking or anything, i'm sure worst goes on in mandirs in India. I had read an article about this but not in the same context as you are putting it, the father wanted to marry off his daughter so she wouldnt get kidnapped and forced into Islam.
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Now this is exactly what I'm talking about. We need a government strong enough to deal with this. Thats why we need new fresh blood in there. Seriously, I'm starting to believe China has it partly right in ruling with an iron fist, it means they can get things done where they need to be done. oh well, it's like what they say in Rang de Basanti "Quit complaining and do something about it. Join the army, the government, the air force etc".
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malizai_
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Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 19:22 |
It is really sad to see the images of the children. I think there are couple of main problems with respect to India.
One, is the class system.
Second, the number of people living below the poverty line. A little more than 300, 000 000 people. Same as the whole of united states and Canada.
Third is gendercide, with the importance on a woman bearing a son rather than a daughter leading to female infanticide.
The Indian govt needs to put money into curbing these problems and practices.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 01:06 |
I think India should stop giving crores of rupees of 'humanitarian aid' |
You'll probably find that the aid money is actually used to ensure
India's interests in Nepal. I mean, imagine if only the chinese were
giving aid. The Maoists would probably be in power tomorrow.
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Anujkhamar
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Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 05:44 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
I think India should stop giving crores of rupees of 'humanitarian aid' |
You'll probably find that the aid money is actually used to ensure
India's interests in Nepal. I mean, imagine if only the chinese were
giving aid. The Maoists would probably be in power tomorrow.
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The moaists arnt to fond of the current Chinese government either. But yes you are correct, its really to "buy" Nepalese loyalty back.
Originally posted by malizai_
It is really sad to see the images of the children. I
think there are couple of main problems with respect to India.
One, is the class system.
Second, the number of people living below the poverty line. A
little more than 300, 000 000 people. Same as the whole of united
states and Canada.
Third is gendercide, with the importance on a woman bearing a son rather than a daughter leading to female infanticide.
The Indian govt needs to put money into curbing these problems and practices. |
Actually it's just over 250,000,000 and declining in the millions every year, but really same thing isnt it. The caste system historically was not a problem, it was ultra specialisation and you could be promoted/demoted. It only really prevails now in poor communities. Killing females i also believe to be on decline, but like the above, such things thrive in poverty. There are 250 million people under thepoverty line in India, that means 750 million who arnt. But then again there is a futher 300 million who live on between $1 to $2. The remaining 400 million's lives are fine (also larger than the population of USA and Canada). Such things will end as people get richer, but dammit it could happen a whole lot faster
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Gharanai
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Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 14:24 |
Originally posted by Rajput
Pandits are Brahmins Gharanai hence...brahmanism, but give me an example of what goes on in mandirs over there (most of the indians there are of the trading class not warriors), I would like to know the motive behind it, not that its shocking or anything, i'm sure worst goes on in mandirs in India. I had read an article about this but not in the same context as you are putting it, the father wanted to marry off his daughter so she wouldnt get kidnapped and forced into Islam.
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Well dear Rajput first of all I would like to thank you about the link you provided it really was a good one as I have been looking for some good links regarding Indians in Afghanistan since long time and the one you provide was a nice one.
On the other hand I am looking forward to getting some information regarding what I had said before about the Mandirs, I had read a topic in local newspaper, so I will search on the net if I could find it.
Back to the topic I guess the real problem behind all these situations are the sectorism (the Barhamans and the Achuts), it's the same as Shia and Suni in Islam and I really don't know when will all these sect go away and one could live in a peaceful environment.
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malizai_
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Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 20:03 |
Gharanai
Shia and Sunni does not equate to a class/caste system like that of India.
Anjum
UR comment about being promoted and demoted does not hold true, since that is the case made by incarnation. The caste system is not like ur football league with promotion and demotion, but u are born to play in one particular league for the rest of your life.
So if your father is an untouchable then u are also one and so u will remain till you die. This is also the reason why many 'untouchables' chose to opt for another religion like Christianity or something.
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Anujkhamar
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Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 20:39 |
That is all very recent. Historically you could be promoted if there was a need. For example if there was a huge war on at the time lower castes could move up if they could prove themselves. Likewise a Brahmin who disgraces himself can easily move down.
All this "birth right" stuff is relatively modern and is more used now for upper castes to feel better about themselves. It's less used at the moment to it's original purpose: specialisation
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mamikon
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Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 20:52 |
The caste system is wrong, outdated and simply ridiculous.
Originally posted by Gharani
killing of children before there birth |
Isnt that similar to abortion?
The poverty of the Indian population can only be blamed on the
government. Children selling themselves is what happens when instead of
helping out the poor the government invests in nuclear weapons. With
such a huge workforce you would think India should have been out of its
current status a while ago.
Isnt there some kind of police that monitors selling of women/children to foreigners? or selling altogether!!
I think mainstream global media is also at a great fault here, instead
of showing the USA and India shake hands over a gold laden table it
should spread information/pictures/movies about the lives of those
children; now I would like so se e Bhairon Singh Shekhawat smile that they have enriched a kilogram more of plutonium.
I have never seen children selling themsleves in Eastern European
countries Rajput; although I have seen a documentary about Russian kids
living in "basements" of Russian cities, "affectionately" called the
"Underground Children" by the populace ... by the way, this is a very informative thread, great job Gharanai
Edited by mamikon - 12-Jun-2006 at 20:53
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Anujkhamar
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Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 21:03 |
Originally posted by mamikon
I think mainstream global media is also at a great fault here, instead
of showing the USA and India shake hands over a gold laden table it
should spread information/pictures/movies about the lives of those
children; now I would like so see Bhairon Singh Shekhawat smile that they have enriched a kilogram more of plutonium.
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I don't know what country your living in, but in the UK thats all that's shown on India (especially Channel 4).
It's what i've been saying, it's like a tale of two India's. One is
rich, one is poor. In the poor one you get such things. Such things are
on the decline.
What would you have us do? Not develope nukes when our main rival has them? That would be suicide.
Also, for these people two grow out of poverty they'll need
electricity. India is running on a huge deficit which is costing
millions. If we don't get more energy quick then these people will
never stand a chance. Oil is too expensive, renewables arnt as advanced
yet, which leaves nuclear power.
You may as well always show life in the US ghetto's instead of showing news about the space program, and then United states poverty of 7.5% of its population earning less than $1 a day?
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Anujkhamar
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Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 21:04 |
Originally posted by mamikon
The caste system is wrong, outdated and simply ridiculous.
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2 out of 3 outdated - yes wrong - yes simply ridiculous - definatly not. How is it any different to the Class systems that existed in Europe?
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mamikon
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Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 23:28 |
Originally posted by
Anujkhamar
I don't know what country your living in, but in the UK thats all that's shown on India (especially Channel 4). |
I have heard absolutely nothing about this until now
Originally posted by
Anujkhamar
It's what i've been saying, it's like a tale of two India's. One is
rich, one is poor. In the poor one you get such things. Such things are
on the decline.
What would you have us do? Not develope nukes when our main rival has them? That would be suicide. |
Two Indias? no Its one India, where 90% of the pop is barely able to
survive. Dont get me wrong, I am not blaming the people, but the
government.
Originally posted by
Anujkhamar
You may as well always show life in the US ghetto's instead of showing
news about the space program, and then United states poverty of 7.5% of
its population earning less than $1 a day? |
7.5% less than one dollar? where did u get this? America is the land of
opportunity. Some poor people here are poor mostly because they are too
lazy to get a job.
Originally posted by
Anujkhamar
simply ridiculous - definatly not. |
I do not understand. We are all born equal.
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Anujkhamar
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Posted: 13-Jun-2006 at 06:14 |
Originally posted by mamikon
Two Indias? no Its one India, where 90% of the pop is barely able to
survive. Dont get me wrong, I am not blaming the people, but the
government.
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Facts and Figures? I already stated mine which i can back up. 1) 250 million under poverty line - reducing by millions evry year note: poverty line = <$1 a day 2) Another 300 million between $1-$2 - These people were once poor but are slowly getting richer. When time allows it, they become middle class 3) Our Middle Classes and Upper Classes = 400 million These people's lives are fine. 100 million of these live lives comparable to America and the UK, but the other 300 million dont have it bad. Also, this group is also is growing by the millions. India today is much different to the one of the 80's, when the majority of world text books were written about it.
Originally posted by mamikon
7.5% less than one dollar? where did u get this? America is the land of
opportunity. Some poor people here are poor mostly because they are too
lazy to get a job.
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Population below poverty line:
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12% (2004 est.) | http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.htmlApologies, it wasn't 7% (that is the UK i think), USA has 12% of its population of 250million living on less then $1 a day. 30 million in the Land of the free and the Land of oppertunity.
Originally posted by
mamikon
I do not understand. We are all born equal.
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Oh by all means we are. But you forget, the caste system was invented thousands of years ago. The idea was to improve the economy. This meant that skills could be perfected and advanced and then passed on in which the son carries on perfecting those skills. It wasn't stupid then, because similar tihngs were followed world wide. If you were born a duke the chances were you died a duke. If you were born a prince you die a prince. But it wasn't set in stone back then. You could happily move if you proved yourself worthy. Candragupta Maurya, the founder of the Mauryan Empire, was of a low caste, but it didnt stop him becoming a warrior, and then an Emporer. If needed merchants who proved themselves could move up into warrior castes. Brahmins who disgraced themselves could move straight down to lower castes. The problem is that these days you get poor people (in group one stated above) who feel that because they are of a higher caste they are better than lower castes, so they stopped this promotion stuff because it maintainted their power over other people.They'll refuse to eat or touch anyone of a poorer caste, but as i agreed with you, it is just plain stupid and outdated. In the city people tend to follow a Class system, like upper middle class lower middle class etc. But as i said, such things are on the decline. In the cities you have untouchables and other lower castes moving up the social and financial hierachy.
Originally posted by mamikon
I am not blaming the people, but the
government.
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I agree with you on this. It is the government's fault the shape of my country at the moment. They focussed solely on social issues through the 60s-80s and hence stopped us growing.
Edited by Anujkhamar - 13-Jun-2006 at 06:16
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malizai_
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Posted: 13-Jun-2006 at 07:30 |
Mamikon
With such a huge workforce you would think India should have been out of its current status a while ago.
I agree with your assesment and you have highlighted a very imporant difference between china and India.
The caste system is said to be fully developed by 800 BC, a recent invention i suppose according to some. But we are digressing anyway. Point is If you are born a girl in a low caste and are poor your worth in society has already been set to the lowest common denominator not just outside your caste but also within it. God forbid! if you also happen to be dark. Such is the ruinous effects of the caste system on the Hindu syche.
Infact the colorism aspect even trancends the religious plane into a cultural one. Thereby some Indian muslims also ascribing to some tenets of this cultural pecularity, although their religion has no provision for such.
Where as in christianity ALL men are born with the stain of Original sin. In India only outcastes like the Dalit are born into sin without recourse or redemption, they have no prospect of salvation in this world or the next.
This is what a Dalit can expect in his normal life:
In many dominant caste (rich) families, the servants are Dalits. After a Dalit servant has cleaned the rooms, pots and pans, one of the family members will sprinkle 'holy water' around the house to purify all that has been touched by the Dalit servant.
Dalits are not allowed to wear shoes; if they wear shoes, they will be forced to take them off when coming into the presence of a dominant caste person.
In rural areas, Dalits are not allowed to cycle through the dominant caste area of the village.
Dalits live mainly in separate communities, outside the actual village.
In general, Dalits are not allowed to sit at bus stops; they have to stand and wait until dominant caste people have entered onto the buses. Dalits are also not allowed to sit on the bus seats, even if they are vacant.
Dalits are not allowed to enter many Hindu temples, for fear of their polluting the temples. Dalits have been chased out, abused and beaten up for daring to as much as set foot inside a temple, even though it is a temple for their religion.
After half a century of Independence, even many educated Dalits continue to face discrimination in renting a house to live in.
Most Hindus will avoid having a Dalit prepare their food, for fear of becoming polluted.
Dalits have been systematically attacked or socially boycotted for asserting their basis rights to land, minimum wages, education, housing, food, water, etc.
Most people will be familiar with the name of Phoolan Devi(sudra) and what the misery of caste system led her.
How she lived because of the caste system.
"Low-caste origins
She was born in the north of India into a poor low-caste family.
Her life became the stuff of legend
| She married at 11 to a man three times her age, but was abandoned by her husband and her family after the marriage broke down.
By the time she was around 20 years old, she was subjected to numerous sexual assaults and turned to a life of crime.
She led a gang of robbers - or dacoits - that carried out a series of violent robberies in north and central India.
Her supporters say that she targeted high-caste families and shared the spoils with the lower castes, but the Indian authorities insisted this was a myth.
At the height of Phoolan Devi's fame, she was glorified by much of the Indian media which wrote tirelessly of her exploits.
A doll was even manufactured in her honour, clad in police uniform with a bandoleer of bullets strapped across her chest.
Massacre
Perhaps the most notorious incident in Phoolan Devi's life took place in 1981 when her gang stormed an isolated village with the intention of carrying out a robbery.
The police failed to track her down
| Details of what exactly happened are unclear, but during the course of the raid, she is said to have recognised two men who earlier had sexually assaulted her and murdered her lover.
In retribution, she ordered around 20 high-caste men to be dragged form their homes and shot dead.
The press described it as the largest massacre by bandits in Indian history.
Afterwards, police launched a huge manhunt using helicopters and thousands of men, but Phoolan Devi's already high reputation among the poor was enhanced as she frequently outwitted them and evaded capture.
She surrendered to the authorities in 1983 in poor health after most of her gang members had died.
A deal with the Indian Government allowed her to escape being hanged.
After serving her sentence she insisted that she was a reformed character and that she had escaped from her past.
However, it looks as if the circumstances of her death meant her past had not escaped her. "
How she died because of the caste system.
"Devi was abducted by his assassins and locked up in Behmai, a village of high-caste Thakurs. These would have been the sort whom dacoits delighted in kidnapping and hijacking. It wasn't long before Devi (as usual) was raped and brutalized for three weeks by many men in the village. But she escaped her lockup and then formed a new gang under her own leadership. Seventeen months later, she returned to Behmai to take her revenge."
She kills twenty two high-caste rajput villagers in revenge.
" Twenty-two village men wound up dead from gunshots"
The rajputs get their own back.
"A few days later a man named Sher Singh Rana held a news conference in which he claimed that he killed Devi in revenge for the Behmai killings. The stigma on the name of the Rajputs has been cleared, Rana declared. Any challenge to caste was averted.
As a sidenote, Rana said his other great ambition in life was to travel to Afghanistan, to bring the memorial of Rajput King Prithvi Raj Chauhan back to India from Kanahar. Chauhan, the last Hindu ruler of Delhi, was put to death by the Turk Muhammad Ghuri after the Second Battle of Tarain, in 1192. One may wish Rana good luck in his anti-Muslim quest in Afghanistan. Perhaps Indian authorities can be persuaded to release him from prison.
A British writer summed up Devis appeal in her being received rapturously by intellectuals [who are] bored with the sordid little compromises of European political life and ever on the lookout for a noble savage to admire. The same could be said of Devis many Indian devotees. While she was undoubtedly an outlaw who brought misery and mayhem and death to those she assailed, Phoolan Devi also embodied the resentments of the lower castes and women. It is a sad society that condemns the majority to permanent oppression. " http://www.goodbyemag.com/jul01/devi.html
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Anujkhamar
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Posted: 13-Jun-2006 at 08:26 |
OK there is no point quoting that entire article, so here is a few problems:
1) The use of "most hindu's"
As i stated in my above post, you'll find the majority of Hindu's couldn't give a crap. Infact, the only people you'll find in cities who actually care about caste are Brahmins, because it makes them feel bigger.
2) the woman above
Are you telling me, that she wouldnt recieve a life sentence in the USA? Ok what happened to her was barbaric
"In general, Dalits are not allowed to sit at bus stops; they
have to stand and wait until dominant caste people have entered onto
the buses. Dalits are also not allowed to sit on the bus seats, even if
they are vacant. "
I don't know where that has come from, i have never seen it ever, and i have been on plenty of Indian busses in my time
Edited by Anujkhamar - 13-Jun-2006 at 08:27
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