Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
ChineseManchurian
Samurai
Joined: 23-Nov-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 132
|
Quote Reply
Topic: What civlization had most scientific research in classical era?? Posted: 30-Nov-2004 at 22:37 |
Originally posted by coolstorm
"Ru guo ni you rang da jia xiang xin zhong guo de chen jiou, ni bi shu rang da jia zhuen jing zhong guo de nien hang (if you know how to read Chinese, which i believe you can)."
Infact, I can't read a single word of this.
I can read Chinese but not ping ying. I am really bad with ping ying especially the mandarin romanization as it is not my mother touque.
If you could put that in written form or English, it would be great.
"You can be patrotic about being Chinese but dont be exaggerate their achivement as it seems they are simply GREAT in every era."
I actually think that Chinese civilization entered a dark age after mid Ming.
I don't think that the Chinese did well in every era but however during the warring state period and the classical age as you mentioned, China definitely had a firm scientific foundation. I agree that the Greeks were excellent in Math, philosophy... etc. I am not undervaluating their acheivements. However, I am not exaggerating Chinese achievements either.
Other than saying that I am exagerating Chinese achievements, would you also kindly list anything from my post that you find exaggerating and not based upon the truth.
Please also note that many technologies that western Europeans mastered from central Asia were originally developed in China. Gunpowder, scope, and compass are some examples.
I will wait for you reply here.
|
如果你有让大家相信中国的成就,你必须要大家尊敬中国的文化?
I guess you probaly use the traditional Chinese Pinyin, it is hard to translate into simplefied.
|
|
coolstorm
Chieftain
Joined: 11-Nov-2004
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1066
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Nov-2004 at 22:39 |
i use traditional chinese but i know nothing about pin yin. and they will never
history has proven it
|
|
coolstorm
Chieftain
Joined: 11-Nov-2004
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1066
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Nov-2004 at 23:57 |
here's what's said about ancient china on the cia factbook:
"For centuries China stood as a leading civilization, outpacing the rest of the world in the arts and sciences. "
|
|
Romano Nero
Samurai
Joined: 16-Nov-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 132
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Dec-2004 at 05:17 |
Coolstorm, I do find your constant effort to prove China is uber alles, rather amusing... even though I'd suggest alternative ways of thinking, like "there is no best nation" for instance.
|
|
coolstorm
Chieftain
Joined: 11-Nov-2004
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1066
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Dec-2004 at 15:36 |
the idea of everyone being equal is a modern propoganda promoting equality among people.
but the world is not equal and power is not equaly distributed.
that holds true at the modern time as well as the ancient time.
would you say the us is as good as afganistan in term of power?
|
|
Imperator Invictus
Caliph
Retired AE Administrator
Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3151
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Dec-2004 at 17:04 |
如果你有让大家 456;信中国的成就, 你必须要大家尊 964;中国的文化 |
If you (want?) everybody to believe China's achievements, then you must have everybody respect its culture.
|
|
demon
Chieftain
Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Brazil
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1185
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Dec-2004 at 17:45 |
here's what's said about ancient china on the cia factbook:
"For centuries China stood as a leading civilization, outpacing the rest of the world in the arts and sciences. " |
Wow. I expect these Americans who wrote the cia factbook did have a lot of evidence to say that statement....? Or did they just tried to come up with a generalization?
EDIt: to have a better comparison, why not post what CIA wrote about Greece?
Edited by demon
|
Grrr..
|
|
coolstorm
Chieftain
Joined: 11-Nov-2004
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1066
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Dec-2004 at 19:03 |
"If you (want?) everybody to believe China's achievements, then you must have everybody respect its culture."
history has however proven that foreigners have always been hostile towards the chinese.
still remember the time they stole the national treasures when beijing fell? they even burned down the state of the art "yuan ming garden" palace?
if you wanna appreciate the imperial chinese vases, u probably have to go to the great british musuem.
don't expect foreigners to treat u well one day or anything to be fair in the world cause it is never going to be.
Edited by coolstorm
|
|
Imperatore Dario I
Shogun
Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Italy
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 204
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Dec-2004 at 19:56 |
Romano, the Chinese did not invent spaghetti. What kind of an Italian are you? Lol
Was spaghetti invented in Sicily? Pasta, made from the flour of hard wheat with water and salt added, cooked by boiling, has existed in some form since the days of the Roman Empire. Made from any of several varieties of durum wheat (triticum durum) that thrive in dry climates, pasta has become one of the world's most popular foods. It is quite possible that this food, as it exists today, was first prepared in ancient Sicily. But was spaghetti actually invented in Sicily?
Before embarking on the trail of historical theories of this kind, it's important to recognise that certain developments could have taken place in different parts of the world at the same time. Ice cream is a classic example. In one form, it was prepared by the ancient Romans with the snows of Mount Etna, but it was probably known (in another form) to the ancient predecessors of the northern Russians. This kind of thing makes it difficult, and perhaps unfair, to attribute the origin of certain common foods to certain peoples and places.
So how did the idea that spaghetti was invented in Sicily get started? Popular history says that it was invented in China, and that Marco Polo brought the knowledge of this food to Venice. The spaghetti Polo encountered (and presumably tasted) in the far east was made from either rice flour or hard wheat flour (long noodles made from both grains exist in eastern cookery). It is generally accepted that the variety of durum wheat known in Sicily during the Middle Ages was, like lemons and oranges, introduced by the Arabs. And that brings us to the pivotal part of the story.
Early in 1154, shortly before the death of Sicily's monarch, King Roger II, and about a century before the birth of Marco Polo, a court chronicler and geographer named Abu Abdullah Mohammed al Edrisi (or Idrisi) completed a detailed geographical survey of Sicily. It is to Edrisi that we owe much of our knowledge of the micro economy and social customs of twelfth-century Sicily. Little is known of Edrisi himself, except that he was born in northwestern Africa and educated in Spain. He appears to have known the Muslim Mediterranean well. Edrisi arrived at Palermo in 1139, and was soon commissioned to research a work of global geography.
The content of the resulting opus, known to us as The Book of Roger, encompassed not only Sicily but other regions as well. It yielded a global map (created in silver), now destroyed, and the book itself. Some of the book's statements were revolutionary for their time, things like "the earth is round like a sphere." The Book of Roger is considered one of the most important scientific works of the Middle Ages. Praised by Sicily's Muslims, Jews and Orthodox ("Eastern") Christians, it was not generally appreciated by the medieval popes or the Roman Catholic clergy, and for that reason its knowledge was sometimes suppressed in western Europe. Like Marco Polo, Edrisi was a traveler who wrote about what he saw, but his work was much more scientific, and generally more objective, than Polo's. More importantly, it survives in its original manuscript form; Marco Polo's writings exist primarily as later transcriptions which were often altered.
A casual observation in the Book of Roger mentions that in the Sicilian town of Trabia the inhabitants made a form of pasta from hard wheat, and that this product, shaped into long strands, was manufactured in large quantity for export to other regions. Edrisi does not speculate about the origin of this "spaghetti," but the fact that he considers it noteworthy, and that it was widely exported to a thriving market, may indicate that it was not known outside Sicily at that time --at least not in the Mediterranean. In those days, hard wheat of the African variety probably was not raised in the more humid northern regions of Europe, yet Edrisi wrote about England, Scandinavia and Russia, describing (albeit possibly based on secondhand knowledge) England's rainy weather and Scandinavia's seasonal endless days and nights.
Only a few years ago did Sicily's tourism promoters rediscover this obscure reference to Sicilian spaghetti, and they've attempted to capitalise on it by referring to it in promotional publications. Their message seems to have been lost on the owners of the Chinese restaurants in Palermo and Catania.
Trabia's vermicelli (from the Italian word for the "thin worms" it resembled) represents, at the very least, what may have been the earliest "industrial" production of pasta. It's an industry that has changed the world's tastes.
About the Author: Roberta Gangi has written numerous articles and one book dealing with Italian cultural and culinary history. This is her first article for Best of Sicily Magazine. |
Top of Page
http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art73.htm |
|
2002 Roberta Gangi
|
|
揕et there be a race of Romans with the strength of Italian courage.- Virgil's Aeneid
|
|
coolstorm
Chieftain
Joined: 11-Nov-2004
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1066
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Dec-2004 at 20:18 |
we had our own version of "mian" (noodles similar to pasta)
we had our own version of pizza and ice cream as well.
|
|
sephodwyrm
Consul
Joined: 19-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 359
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Dec-2004 at 21:02 |
Greece achieved its independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1829. During the second half of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century, it gradually added neighboring islands and territories, most with Greek-speaking populations. Following the defeat of Communist rebels in 1949, Greece joined NATO in 1952. A military dictatorship, which in 1967 suspended many political liberties and forced the king to flee the country, lasted seven years. The 1974 democratic elections and a referendum created a parliamentary republic and abolished the monarchy; Greece joined the European Community or EC in 1981 (which became the EU in 1992). |
Doesn't look too good. Like I have said, modern Greece is incomparable to ancient Greece.
The only ancient civilization that have lasted till now is China.
Edited by sephodwyrm
|
"Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them"
"Not what goes into the mouth that defiles the Man, but what comes out of the mouth" Matthew 7:12, 15:11
|
|
sephodwyrm
Consul
Joined: 19-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 359
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Dec-2004 at 21:04 |
Oh, yeah, and you'll be surprised at what people say about countries. Korea has a lot of good stuff from CIA factbook as well. I respect Korea a lot.
|
"Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them"
"Not what goes into the mouth that defiles the Man, but what comes out of the mouth" Matthew 7:12, 15:11
|
|
Gubook Janggoon
Sultan
Retired Global Moderator
Joined: 08-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2187
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Dec-2004 at 21:10 |
Originally posted by sephodwyrm
The only ancient civilization that have lasted till now is China.
|
I disagree. You can't really say the people from a thousand years ago or more are really like their modern counterparts.
|
|
Christscrusader
Baron
Joined: 13-Nov-2004
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 481
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Dec-2004 at 21:20 |
China was actually conquered by the Mongols, which spread Mongolian influence over the people as well.
|
Heaven helps those, who help themselves.
-Jc
|
|
Imperator Invictus
Caliph
Retired AE Administrator
Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3151
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Dec-2004 at 22:13 |
history has however proven that foreigners have always been hostile towards the chinese.
still remember the time they stole the national treasures when
beijing fell? they even burned down the state of the art "yuan ming
garden" palace?
if you wanna appreciate the imperial chinese vases, u probably have to go to the great british musuem.
don't expect foreigners to treat u well one day or anything to be fair in the world cause it is never going to be. |
It's more complicated than that. The British burned down the White
House in Washington DC, and stole the Pantheon freeze. But afterwards,
the US and Britian became friends. Western Europe holds great
admiration to the Greeks.
Since you are so fervent in trying to prove that China was superior, one thing that I have to say is this:
If only you alone say you're the greatest, it means little. But if
others say so, then that shows you have won the admiration of the rest.
|
|
coolstorm
Chieftain
Joined: 11-Nov-2004
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1066
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Dec-2004 at 22:35 |
"China was actually conquered by the Mongols, which spread Mongolian influence over the people as well. "
it's the other way around for china's cultural influence and large population.
both the mongols and manchu who lived in china got incorporated into the chinese culture.
foreigners will always be hostile to china and i dun have any fantasy. i live in reality.
"
sephodwyrm wrote:
The only ancient civilization that have lasted till now is China.
| | |
I disagree. You can't really say the people from a thousand years ago or more are really like their modern counterparts
"
it's not something that can be debated. it's an accepted and proven fact that the chinese culture is the only ancient civilization that has survived till now. the writing, traditions, cultures blah blah blah haven't changed.
taoism today is taoism 2000 yrs ago.
check cia factbook for further information
Edited by coolstorm
|
|
sephodwyrm
Consul
Joined: 19-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 359
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Dec-2004 at 22:50 |
Hmm...something to ponder about from friend Imperator Invictus.
But western Europe has a small population compared to India and China, and China and India mutually acknowledges each other to be great and powerful civilizations. That's like 1/5 + 1/6 of the world population.
It doesn't matter if western Europeans respect Greek culture. Do they respect Greece right now?
And now we have this montrosity known as China. How much fear does China command! Dude, look around and you can see all those news articles in English about how China is a threat blah blah blah. We have already proven our greatness through your fear which will undoubtedly grow.
|
"Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them"
"Not what goes into the mouth that defiles the Man, but what comes out of the mouth" Matthew 7:12, 15:11
|
|
Imperator Invictus
Caliph
Retired AE Administrator
Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3151
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Dec-2004 at 23:17 |
I had really intended my statement to be more flexible than being limited to a country or a person.
BTW, we're going to keep modern world affairs out of this thread or this one get moved out to ID forum.
Edited by Imperator Invictus
|
|
Romano Nero
Samurai
Joined: 16-Nov-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 132
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Dec-2004 at 02:02 |
Once more, in a less subtle way, since what Imperator Invictus is trying to pass along does miss it's points:
- Everybody is entitled on believing his-hers ancestors are the greatest among humans and that all other people are "lesser". It is only natural. But trying to stuff this personal truth of yours upon other people's throats, is not productive, neither intelligent, nor mature. It's childish behaviour and sometimes dangerous: that was precisely what Hitler and his ridiculous ubermenschen believed... see what they've come up with?
Dario
Well, the Chinese invented noodles, which is a form of spaghetti. But, surely, the pasta is an Italian thing
|
|
Miller
Baron
Joined: 25-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 487
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Dec-2004 at 03:43 |
Originally posted by Romano Nero
- Everybody is entitled on believing his-hers ancestors are the
greatest among humans and that all other people are "lesser". It is
only natural. But trying to stuff this personal truth of yours upon
other people's throats, is not productive, neither intelligent, nor mature. It's childish behaviour and sometimes dangerous: |
Well Said
|
|