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December 26th: End of the Soviet Union

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  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: December 26th: End of the Soviet Union
    Posted: 03-Jan-2006 at 15:49

Truly Russia was quite industrialized before the revolution.Russia even produse more steel than France and the production of coal was incrasing very fast (6 milion tons in 1890 36 milons in 1914.Rusiia was the second larger produser of oil.Russian light industri was large too.She posses much more facilities for cotton than France or Austro-hungary.Massive factories with several thousand workers appear near St.Petersburg , Moscow and othere big cities.But if you change the view piont the picture became different.Even that there was 3milion factory workers at that time that is 1,75% of  the population.Even that  there was local firms much of the industry was held by foreighners like "Singer".In 1914 100%of the oil production,90% of the mining, 40% of the metalurgy,50% of the chemecal production, 28% of the light industry was held by foreighners.That is not soo bad but it shows how dependent on foreighn capitals was Russia.At that time Russia had the largest foreighn dept.The payements on that dept were larger than the real trade balance.In 1913 63% of the export was agrocultural products and 11% was wood materials.80 of the population was pesantry.Not only that but the agrocultural production was very ineficiant .The grain production was even lesser than 33% of that England prodused.Also the medival way of using the land- with wooden plows and exsastion of the land because the same culture was seeded.Even that the agrocultural production was increasing with 2% yearly it cant met the demand of 1.5% population increasing yearly.

This about the electrician gye is true, but even siting in the office he get payed.My grandfather had the same job.He was Pumping station observer and his job was to visid with his busicle,  the 2 small pumping station, who were maneged by one pumping technitian whose job was to push "ON" "OFF', to see if they are pumping and the pumping technician offer him food and beer.

 

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2006 at 16:14
Sorry, the topic is so "hot" and so quickly gaining new posts, that I can't reply to all individually.

Literacy:

Age 15 and over can read and write:

  • total population: 98%
    • male: 100%
    • female: 97% (1989 est.)
Source: Wikipedia - Education in Russia

Overall death toll in wars and persecutions in the 20th century:


(Source)

The highest death toll was obviously around WWII and the highest density of murders (non-war killed per year) was obviously at the hands of Nazi Germany. In the same period it is followed by the USSR, Nationalist China and Japan. In the 1945-55 period, the USSR has the highest  toll, followed by Red China. But it's also obvious that Nazi Germany would have broken all records if it continued to exist. It's also obvious that USSR and China have much larger populations than Germany.


This is a rlative scale of barbarism: percentage of population killed in specific epysodes (independent of their duration). (Source)

Mosquito: I couldn't but notice that Poland lost about 20% of its population in WWII. Obviously most of them were killed by the Nazis, am I wrong?

Here you can check (worldwide for the 20th century):
You will see that the USSR evolved pretty well, specially between 1930-60, but became stuck in most indicators after the 60s, coincident with what I mentioned above of the transition to Toyotism, which the USSR was unable to face.

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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2006 at 16:15

I am a leftist.I know that USSR was not a democratical state nor i praise it.But i have to acknowledge  them some things.They helped the world to defeat Nazi Germany,they boosted technological progress thanks to the competition with US,they gave the world a hope,as fake as it was,that they can be sth different than the black capitalist world.And for sure,people in the USSR during the 50's  were living much better than in democratical Greece,where 3 people had to share one egg.

 

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2006 at 16:39
Maju, you're just prooving that Bolsheviks are in the same category as Nazis and Nationalists & Communists in China. as in the case of China, i can see both sides in the mass-murder catgeroy, but in the case of Russia i can't see the "whites" doign anything wrong...
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2006 at 16:41

Mosquito: I couldn't but notice that Poland lost about 20% of its population in WWII. Obviously most of them were killed by the Nazis, am I wrong?

Yes, Poland lost about 6 millions citisens. I would say 4,5 millions were murdered by Nazists and about 1,5 millions by Soviets. Some statistics say that about 2 millions were killed by Soviets but i guess that not all were killed because we still got about 200.000 Poles in Kazakhstan.

The worst thing was that they were imprisoning, torturing and killing those who for 5 years were fighting against Germans and helping soviets by blowing up the trains with German supplies which were going to eastern front and those who were attacking Germans from behind when Red Army was coming.

"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2006 at 16:52

The soviets only from 30 to 55.And the whites are invluded in civil war in russia.The further we go back in time the sourses became less so the situation is very foggy about tzars regime but the many peasent revolts from XVIIc. to 1918 surely are for some reason and eventualy the rebels became victums of the whites, but no exact numbers survive.And until late XIXc. when the srefdom was abolished much os the russian populatioan were serfs.Who knows how much died because of the "kind" lords who owned them

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2006 at 17:54
Originally posted by Temujin

Maju, you're just prooving that Bolsheviks are in the same category as Nazis and Nationalists & Communists in China. as in the case of China, i can see both sides in the mass-murder catgeroy, but in the case of Russia i can't see the "whites" doign anything wrong...


I had never mentioned "whites"... but check that "mountain" that says Russian Civil War - I'm pretty sure that not all the victims can be blamed on the bolshes - "whites" were no saints at all.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2006 at 17:57
Originally posted by Mosquito

Mosquito: I couldn't but notice that Poland lost about 20% of its population in WWII. Obviously most of them were killed by the Nazis, am I wrong?

Yes, Poland lost about 6 millions citisens. I would say 4,5 millions were murdered by Nazists and about 1,5 millions by Soviets. Some statistics say that about 2 millions were killed by Soviets but i guess that not all were killed because we still got about 200.000 Poles in Kazakhstan.

The worst thing was that they were imprisoning, torturing and killing those who for 5 years were fighting against Germans and helping soviets by blowing up the trains with German supplies which were going to eastern front and those who were attacking Germans from behind when Red Army was coming.



I can't but agree that killing your own allies is a very nasty practice.

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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 06:11

Originally posted by ''Subotai''

Truly Russia was quite industrialized before the revolution

I partly disagree.

Russsia was industrialized,but not quite.

Let me remind you the fact that Russia launched industrialization process in 1880s and 90s thanks to Count Witte..In other words decades later than westen europe and more or less 30 years before the revolution.

in 1904 Trans-Siberian railway completed.But yet it is not enough to call Russia a quite industrialized country before the revolution.

Lenin himself knew this and added hiis point of view to the Marxist theory.

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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 06:15

Originally posted by Maju

I'm pretty sure that not all the victims can be blamed on the bolshes - "whites" were no saints at all.

Exactly.

The Whites also executed non-combatants during the civil war.

1 m poeple were civil war combat causalties and between one hundred thousand and  three hundred thousand non-combatant people were executed by the whites and reds during the civil war...The Civil War was more devastating for russia than the war with germany.


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  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 07:44
I said that russia is "quite" industrialized if you only wach the numbers, but considering how much of the population is in the industry sector(as i already said in my upper post) it becomes very different picture.
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 08:09

The graphs show that there were no significant death events in the USSR outside the Civil War (caused by the anti-Communists, i.e. 'kill all reds!' people) and 1924-1953 (rule of Stalin). The rest of the time, USSR was quite peaceful and, of course, advanced.

They were also successful at modernising their economy and society. This is why almost all third world independence movements adopted some sort of Socialist program, while the West tried to keep them down.

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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 11:18

Advanced but not quiet peaceful.

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  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 11:29
Actaly during 50s, 60s,70s,80s in almost all estern block coutries it was very peacful(very little crime).The live was quiet.Tou have where to live, not to worry that you will be levt on the street jobless, you have enogh money to bye everything you need but nothing fancy.
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  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 11:33
Oh and forgot to add(cuz cant edit).There wre no represions durring these years.
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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 11:38

It is an important feeling for a man not to fear for losing his job.I agree..Thats what I like aout the soviet union.very few unemployed people.

but what about this remark uttered by a worker in order to describe the system of the soviet union?

''They pretented to pay us,and we pretented to work.''

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  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 11:46

True the payement was little but it was more then enough to feed your family,to pay taxes and bye something extra, but not enough to bye a tv.But because of that people were stockpiling their money in so called "Jar bank" and then in the late70s and 80s ,when everybody has the money,there was a rush to bye these things and eventualythe production cant met the demand of the population

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 15:30

Actaly during 50s, 60s,70s,80s in almost all estern block coutries it was very peacful(very little crime).The live was quiet.Tou have where to live, not to worry that you will be levt on the street jobless, you have enogh money to bye everything you need but nothing fancy.

Oh and forgot to add(cuz cant edit).There wre no represions durring these years.

Did you born stupid or it came with time?


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  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 15:53
I'll consider that i didnt read that question.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 16:00

1956 - Hungary invaded by Soviet Union

1956 - Poznan (my city) in Poland - rebelion

1968 - Czechoslovakia invaded by Warsaw Pact (and also riots in Poland)

1978- protests of workers in Poland - (ended in bloodbath)

1981 -1982 martial law in Poland

And you say there were no repressions, live was quiet, damn workers paradise

"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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