Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
Phallanx
Chieftain
Joined: 07-Feb-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1283
|
Topic: Cypriots to get their lands back ??? Posted: 26-Nov-2005 at 06:01 |
I'll once again need one of the Turkish members to give an accurate translation, but if I'm
correct, this is actually big news..
It seems that there is a notion
in the pseudo-state's counsil, to pass a law that will return to the
Hellinic-Cypriot's all their properties that have been left behind in the
occupied part of the island..
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/dunya/3563101.asp?m=1&gid=69
-
--------
Even though, the pseudo-state's 'administration' doesn't have
the legal basis to 'return' land and property to the Hellinic-Cypriot's, since
it belongs to the HC's by right as seen in the relevant UN
Security Council resolutions (353).
I (yeah I know how this will sound) can not but admit that this is finally something
that can be trully considered as a positive move on Turkey's half..well that is, if I've read it correctly..
|
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
|
|
Yiannis
Sultan
Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2329
|
Posted: 26-Nov-2005 at 06:11 |
I cannot understand Turkish, but seriously doubt that this is the case. I mean that in the past, they refused to acknowledge this right, even to people who had won their properties back in court (Louizidou case).
|
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
|
|
Phallanx
Chieftain
Joined: 07-Feb-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1283
|
Posted: 26-Nov-2005 at 06:19 |
Well, yeah you're quite right they never did acknowledge the Loizidou
nor the Apostolides case. I can't help but see a different kind of plan
behind it.
Let's say the TC do pass this law and the HC are allowed to re-settle
on their ancestral lands on the occupied part of the island..
Wouldn't they be obliged to abide by the pseudo-state's laws and by
doing so, wouldn't they 'indirectly' recognizing the pseudo-state's
very existance if they are to abide by it's laws ??
Could this be just a political game to take advantage of what the HC's
(not to mention International organizations) have been demanding
and by this, put pressure on Papadopoulos to come to some kind of an
agreement in their (pseudo-state) favor ??
Edited by Phallanx
|
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
|
|
Yiannis
Sultan
Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2329
|
Posted: 26-Nov-2005 at 06:52 |
Could be, after all politics are a game of give and take...
|
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
|
|
Leonidas
Tsar
Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4613
|
Posted: 26-Nov-2005 at 08:26 |
I wouldnt believe this at all. Judging from their take-all approach
during the negotitions, the military's desire to hold onto the north
and the stalled progress with the EU. Its a ploy at best.
What a paradox, turkey acting legimatly while maintianing its occupation.
|
|
Mila
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4030
|
Posted: 26-Nov-2005 at 13:03 |
The right of return has to go both ways.
You can't expect Bosniaks to be allowed to return to
their homes in Banja Luka and not allow Bosnian
Serbs to return to their homes in Mostar, it just
doesn't work.
Sometimes some form of compensation is easier.
Imagine, for example, if Israel allowed all the
Palestinians to return to their pre-1967 or pre-1948
homes. There would not be a single district in the
country where a majority of the population was
Jewish, the whole identity of the 'Jewish State' would
be lost.
So they'll be forced to offer some sort of
compensation, probably for the refugees from 1948,
since they're smaller in number and from areas like
Jaffa (Tel Aviv), where it might be unrealistic to bring
in tens of thousands of returnees.
And for the 1967 crowd, from the Gaza strip and the
West Bank, they can offer a choice between return or
compensation.
It's not perfect but it's the only way it will function.
The same would have to be implemented in Cyprus.
You can't allow Eastern Orthodox residents to return
their homes of generations while not allowing
Muslim residents to do the same.
They should be doing the same for European Jews
as well.
|
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
|
|
Yiannis
Sultan
Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2329
|
Posted: 26-Nov-2005 at 14:12 |
Originally posted by Mila
And for the 1967 crowd, from the Gaza strip and the West Bank |
Don't call them "crowd". I know you didn't mean wrong, but it's not nice...
In any case, I think you're comparing uneven qualities here. Their only similarity is that each case is a mistake that should be ammended, not an injustice to be perpetuated.
|
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
|
|
Mila
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4030
|
Posted: 26-Nov-2005 at 14:18 |
Sorry Yiannis, I didn't realize it was rude!
I agree that it is something that needs to be
addressed. If European Jews can return to Israel
after 2,000 years, surely Palestinians can return after
50. The logic that created Israel is the same logic
that could potentially destroy it.
So there has to be some sort of balance, but who
knows. There are two quotes about the situation
there I really like. I saw them in documentaries and
they stayed in my mind.
One was from a Palestinian woman and she said
something like, "Yes, it's true the Jews were driven
away. But I didn't do it, my ancestors didn't do it. They
can't blame my family for something the Europeans
did. And they can't come back here and pretend the
land was empty for 2,000 years. There are people
here, a whole nation. They have to respect that."
And one from a Jewish man who said, "The
Palestinians need to recognize that we are not an
invading force. We are simply returning home and
they need to respect our right to do it."
So I agree with both.
But anyhow, I hope in Cyprus families will be
allowed to return to their homes. They need to
recognize that religion is not the deciding factor as
well. There are many Muslim Greeks who are now
considered, and even consider themselves, as
Turks in Cyprus. There are also many Orthodox
Christians who are Turkish but now live with and
consider themselves Greek.
It seems so weird to me, that. We don't have that
situation in Bosnia at all. We are Muslim, what some
here would call "Turkish", but everyone knows we're
the same Slavs who came here in the 6th century,
we didn't come here in 1467. There are many
Muslims in Cyprus who have the same history.
Edited by Mila
|
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
|
|
Leonidas
Tsar
Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4613
|
Posted: 26-Nov-2005 at 21:55 |
Mila wrote:
"
The right of return has to go both ways."
I totally agree,
Both sides should return to their homes. Why the turks dont want this is
that they captured more territory than the pre invasion population
needed. So any swap back would mean they lose territory won. Any right
of return would also mean that those shipped in by turkey from the
mainland would have to also go back to their homes across the sea,
hence also retreating on demographic terms. Migrations from the
mainland are bad for nth cyprus and the whole island itself, they dont
have the same ties to the island as either community and will vote for
outside causes.
Such a move back to the pre-invasion times would be percived by turks
as a retreat and a loss of prevoius gains. Even when their rights and
all things that led to the invasion is agreed, garraunteed and solved
they* wont leave. Thats the big sticking point.
*They as in the military who have other reason to stay, aswell as mainlanders
|
|
OSMANLI
Colonel
Joined: 24-Nov-2004
Location: North Cyprus
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 740
|
Posted: 27-Nov-2005 at 13:17 |
http://atcanews.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=vi ew&id=341&Itemid=1
The above is a link for an English version of this story.
My personal opinion on this topic is that any SOUTH Cypriot that has land in the TRNC should be able to find land belonging to a Turkish Cypriot in South Cyprus (ofcourse of equivelent value). If the owner of the land (Turkish or South Cypriot) desides that they do not want to exchange then they should be offered a fair price. Thus in this way neither Turkish or South Cypriot will have any links with the neighbour country.
I hope we can settle all these silly disputes. So that we may live in peace and freindship as two independent nations.
Peace and independence for the Republic of South Cyprus
Peace and independence for the Turkish Republic of North Cyprus
Edited by OSMANLI
|
|
|
Phallanx
Chieftain
Joined: 07-Feb-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1283
|
Posted: 27-Nov-2005 at 14:33 |
OSMANLI
But doesn't your opinion actually keep the people, the population which is of Cypriot nationality that should not be defined as Hellines and Turks, separated ??
And why propose a 'pay off' as a copensation for losing the lands some
were born and raised in, while 'granting' them to 'invaders'. That
would actually justify the invasion and keep the current 'status' of
occupied lands which is what no-one actually wants.
Besides, according to the 1960 census there were only 103,822 TC's,
while we know that some 200.000 HC's were driven out of their homes,
knowing that not all of the TC's lived in the South, makes the
'exchange' literally impossible.
Anyway, the map presented makes me believe that you're actually
supporting the separation and the illegal formation of the puppet state
you continue to call a republic. Even though it hasn't been recognized
nor forfills the requirements in order to be titled as one.
|
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
|
|
Leonidas
Tsar
Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4613
|
Posted: 28-Nov-2005 at 04:08 |
My opinion is that Cypriots should lead the way to overall
GreKo/Turkish relations. Division of the island would not be the
answer, while locking out greeks from the ancient lands would definatly
not be the peaceful answer.
Peace on the island can only be achieved by a acceptable justice
for both sides and not imposed by the situation that was born out of
aggression (greek and turkish) that still divides the two communities.
Preservations of each others rights, one vote for one person, a unified
structure that accepts difference and no foreign occupation for dignities sake, is the only way forward.
|
|
OSMANLI
Colonel
Joined: 24-Nov-2004
Location: North Cyprus
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 740
|
Posted: 28-Nov-2005 at 13:53 |
Phallanx "invaders". Iam sorry i dont know what you mean.
Leonidas, locking you Greeks from 'anciant lands', that funny. Well the Turkish Cyp. are allowing you to visit the TRNC. You are more than welcome, however invasion or the swollowing of the TRNC to the South Cyprus is out of the question. Which is why measures to seperate the property of the south cyp. and turkish cyp. to their own country is best. We must aim for these two neighbour countries to become at peace with each other. Just because they share one land mass means nothing. Thats like saying all of Africa should be one country since according to your logic people sharing a land mass must unite as a country.
Edited by OSMANLI
|
|
|
Spartakus
Tsar
terörist
Joined: 22-Nov-2004
Location: Greece/Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4489
|
Posted: 28-Nov-2005 at 14:15 |
Division of the island,would be the most stupid political movement since the time of the apes......
|
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
|
|
Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
|
Posted: 28-Nov-2005 at 15:42 |
Such proposals have no place in EU scheme of freedom of transit and
freedom of property. If I can own land in Cyprus and a (Greco-) Cypriot
ca own land or anything in Germany and we all can travel from one
country to another without any obstacle, keeping things separate is
foolish. There's no future for ethnically pure states, at least inside
EU.
|
NO GOD, NO MASTER!
|
|
Phallanx
Chieftain
Joined: 07-Feb-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1283
|
Posted: 28-Nov-2005 at 20:13 |
Com'on, you know exactly what I'm talking about. There is no way you
could have forgotten about the military troops in the Northern part of
the island, unless you actually don't live there..
So you allowed the HC to VISIT
their homes, the same homes that were taken from them by force, the
very same homes that have been left in decay, (not to mention the
destroyed properties) since the TC aren't allowed to repair them (I see
no other reason to not even paint them after 30 years, see BBC ). Well sorry but I see nothing to feel thankfull about nor anything to be considered a 'good will' action.
Peace has been proven to be accomplished without any great separation
plan being put in action and of course NOT thanks to the ILLEGAL
Turkish troops that continue to occupy the island, in total disrespect
to all the international resolutions demanding their withdrawal.
Proof is the 15.000 ( yes 15 thousand
) TC that pass the 'border' each and every day to work on the HC side.
Even more proof is the village of Pyla where Cypriots of both ethnic
origin, live together in peace.
But that wouldn't suit the separation cause, so we keep it a secret and
speak of interest in the minority's security and fear of some
alleged extermination..
Finally "sharing a land mass" isn't actually the correct definition of
what we see here. Share means " To allow someone to use or enjoy
something that one possesses" (dictionary.com)
Do we see the HC being ALLOWED to enjoy what is ILLEGALLY in the possesion of the TC ???
I'd say no..
So we definitely can't speak of sharing.. it would be similar to saying
that the Israelis shared Gaza with the Palestinians without any mention
of the concrete walls nor the electric fences
|
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
|
|
Leonidas
Tsar
Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4613
|
Posted: 29-Nov-2005 at 04:39 |
OSMANLI wrote:
"Leonidas, locking you Greeks from 'anciant lands', that funny"
There is nothing funny about kicking out these people from the ancestral lands, as some kind of collective and ongoing punishment. While they cannot live on their land they are locked out, simple as that.
Both sides should have their property given back in this regard.
"Well the Turkish Cyp. are allowing you to visit the TRNC."
Im not cypriot, and yes, i know you take tourists. Nor do I or
others think allowing daily visits somehow consitutes "sharing"
or some kind of great openess on the turks part.
"Which is why measures to seperate the property of the south cyp. and turkish cyp. to their own country is best. "
Best for who? both sides or just the Nth side?
There is nothing just or equal about that logic, but please explian
why the greek cypriots should accept this? would you accept your home
to be lived in by another family? honest answer would be good right
now......
So, as for the land issue, its not about sharing, its about taking whats not yours in the first place and not giving it back.
"however invasion or the swollowing of the TRNC to the South Cyprus is out of the question."
Then be patient with the isolation that attitude brings. Turkey
will probably annex Nth cyprus sooner or later, if no solution is
reached and the EU thing is a no go. Either way Nth cyprus dont
have the right or power to ask the Turkish military to leave. If your a
"independant" country then defend yourselves. Turkish/kurdish migrants
from the mainland will eventually be majority in the north, so turkish
cypriots are already being invaded and swollowed.
"We must aim for these two neighbour countries to become at peace with each other. "
we agree on this, except I talk about living together and you talk of seperation
Edited by Leonidas
|
|
OSMANLI
Colonel
Joined: 24-Nov-2004
Location: North Cyprus
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 740
|
Posted: 29-Nov-2005 at 14:58 |
There is nothing funny about kicking out these people from the ancestral lands
Shall i tell you what is funny. Its funny how you keep mentioning Cyprus as your anciant land. The original inhabitants of Cyprus were from Anatolia and Syria. Lets call the Syrians to take Cyprus since its their ancestrial land.
Your right, there is nothing funny about kicking people out from their land, however these measures must be done when ethinic cleanising is happening.
There is nothing just or equal about that logic, but please explian why the greek cypriots should accept this? would you accept your home to be lived in by another family? honest answer would be good right now......
You want an honest answer well then ofcourse, as a Muslim i will give you an honest answer. My family prior to the war of 74' lived in what is now the Republic of South Cyprus. In a village near the town known as Limassol (Leymosun), due to the war they moved to Guzelyurt (Morphou eng./Omorphu gre.). Greeks are currently living in my families property. I have no problem with this, as long as my family get properly compensated. If the Greeks are unfairly compensated then ofcourse i will say that should be fairly compensated.
Either way Nth cyprus dont have the right or power to ask the Turkish military to leave. If your a "independant" country then defend yourselves. Turkish/kurdish migrants from the mainland will eventually be majority in the north, so turkish cypriots are already being invaded and swollowed
Why would i want the Turkish Republics army to leave? They are more than welcome. They saved the Turkish Cypriots from ethnic cleanising. Without this army i would either not have been born or been raised as a Orthodox Christion. No offence, but no thank you.
Turks from the mainland want to live in Cyprus, well why not? They are Turks just as i am. Many Turkish Cypriots went to live in Anatolia so why not the other way round. Invaded by Turkey. Isnt it the Turkish Republic that ollowed the 'Turkish Fedrated State of Cyprus' to become independent in 1983?
we agree on this, except I talk about living together and you talk of seperation
Maybe Turkey and Greece should be united!!!
I ask you this, why should the Turks and Greeks live as one country in Cyprus. What do they have in commen?
Is it their religion? NO
Is it their language? NO
Is it their ethnicity? NO
Is it their culture? NO
|
|
|
Leonidas
Tsar
Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4613
|
Posted: 30-Nov-2005 at 04:50 |
"Its funny how you keep mentioning Cyprus as your
anciant land. The original inhabitants of Cyprus were from Anatolia and
Syria. Lets call the Syrians to take Cyprus since its their ancestrial
land"
Oh your bringing up the whole "they are just hellinized" arguement. I think
discounting the hellenic culture on that island is a little risky on a
history based website. The hellinic speakers (hellenized people) pre
date the turkish speakers (turkified people). Hellinic culture and life
has dominated cyprus from around 1220BC with
earlier migrants dating back to1600BC, along the same time the
phoenicians came. You might aswell say the greeks aren't native enough
in greece/Aegean. Or the english arent really native british.
"Your right, there is nothing funny about kicking people out from their
land, however these measures must be done when ethinic cleanising is
happening."
ethnic cleansing doesnt excuse ethnic cleansing. Those days are now gone, such greeks are not in power. Therefore the excuse to remain "cleansed" is no no longer true.
"You want an honest answer well then ofcourse, as a Muslim i will give you an honest answer"
I apreciate your honesty and thats the way I prefer it. I think my
orginal point is that you may be happy with the loss of your title,
though you should have your title, but many others are not, peace can
be about one side being happy, right?. They want to live on their land
in the Nth or atleast the right to live there, and in my opinion are
alittle tired of it all.
"Why would i want the Turkish Republics army to leave?"
Because you claim you are a soveriegn state and are independant in your
own right. You should be able to defend yourselves, otherwise you are
in reality just a vassal to another country and government. My point
wasnt if you want them to stay or not, it was that you probably couldnt
get rid of them if you wanted to.
That is, I question how much real control turkish cypriots have on their own affairs.
"Isnt it the Turkish Republic that ollowed the 'Turkish Fedrated State of Cyprus' to become independent in 1983?"
Well if Turkey "allowed" you to be indepandant, doesnt sound like self
determination to me. That was a political move to legitimise th
invasion and cement the territorial grab, which the world has not
accepted.
The question I would ask, is what would of happened if turkey didnt allow you to be indepedant?
I ask you this, why should the Turks and Greeks live as one country in Cyprus. What do they have in commen?
They share a relatively peaceful history on the island together for
aslong as the turkish* have migrated there. Only to be divided, no
suprise, when the british ruled. Turkish cypriots even sometimes joined
their christian neighbours in uprising agianst the ottomans.
Is it their religion?
No but does that mean christians cant live in turkey, or that muslims
dont belong in greece? I dont think along those lines.
Is it their language?
"Historically,
Greek and Turkish Cypriots used to live cheek by jowl......
Over
the years the islands Turkish and Greek dialects developed a substantial
shared vocabulary and even a similar accent; to the untutored ear they can
sound strangely alike." Link
Is it their ethnicity? Well
genetically there is not much in it, but everything else comes down to
perception. I imagine that with your logic that you symphasis with the
white french not wanting any ethnic difference in their country?
Is it their culture?
Different but not by a huge margin. When ive met and worked with turks
over here we have allot more in common than lets say, anglo saxons.
Anyway, all of that makes no sense, when the Nth try to sell the land they won, to um , british investors.
*Osmanli, Ive heard the original Turkish cypriots are Turkmen from M/E, is that true?
Edited by Leonidas
|
|
Alparslan
Colonel
Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 517
|
Posted: 30-Nov-2005 at 13:00 |
Originally posted by Leonidas
I ask you this, why should the Turks and Greeks live as one country in Cyprus. What do they have in commen?
They share a relatively peaceful history on the island together for aslong as the turkish* have migrated there. Only to be divided, no suprise, when the british ruled. Turkish cypriots even sometimes joined their christian neighbours in uprising agianst the ottomans.
|
Well. Which peace are you talking about?
Greek and Turkish Cypriots have made an agreement which is called London-Zurich Treaty in 1960. This was the founding treaty of Cyprus as an independent state and the Cyprus constitution has been based on this treaty.
But president of Cyprus called Makarios who was a priest had demolished the Cyprus constitution in 1963 and Greek Cypriots have denied all rights of Turks which were given in London - Zurich Treaty.
The tension between the two community has been increased after this.
Until 1974, Turks' lands have been expropriated by unlawful Greek Cypriot government which is a continuation of today's Cyprus governmet. Between 1963 - 1974 thousands of Turkish civilians have been massacred by unlawful Greek Cypriot government.
In 1974 summer a coup d'etat has been organized by Greek military who was ruling Greece. This junda has ruled Greece between 1967 - 1974. Their aim was to annex Cyprus with Greece. Turkey, as being a guarantor state of Cyprus, has intervened the situation.
Because of Greece we lost more than 500 soldiers to preserve our rights and save Turkish Cypriots. It did not take long this operation for Turkey but how can we compensate the lost lives? You are talking about lands now..... But can you give us back our lost lives?
After all Turks have nothing to trust Greeks. It is almost impossible to live together for both communities. After refusing the United Nations plan by Greek side, the best thing is to be seperated.
Edited by Alparslan
|
|