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Private wars and in the Commonwealth of Poland and Lithuania

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  Quote Drang nach Osten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Private wars and in the Commonwealth of Poland and Lithuania
    Posted: 16-Jun-2015 at 07:22
Very interesting. 
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 14:47

Originally posted by Maharbbal

Hi,

Bravo and thanks again. I think early modern Poland-Lithuania really
deserves to be counted among the oddest political system in Europe.

Unfortunately you are going to have to tell us more about the 1791
constitution... Otherwise I won't sleep.

Bye.

Well, info about 1791 constitution can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_3rd_may

"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 18:09
Hi,

Bravo and thanks again. I think early modern Poland-Lithuania really
deserves to be counted among the oddest political system in Europe.

Unfortunately you are going to have to tell us more about the 1791
constitution... Otherwise I won't sleep.

Bye.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 15:46

Originally posted by Maharbbal

Hi,
Well, thanks a lot. That is what one could call an answer quite complete.
Bye.

Well, i hope it makes the administrative and goverment system of the Commonwealth more clear. The problem was that in the second half of the 17th century the system didnt work anymore and was going toward anarchy.

The good desription of the goverment system in the Commonwealth are these 2 quotes:

"our state is a republic under the presidency of the King"

"Rex regnat et non gubernat" ("The King reigns but does not govern")

Finally the problems were fixed about 100 years later and especially by the constitution of 3rd may 1791 (first modern constitution in Europe). Interesting was fact that consitution didnt abolish nobility but unlike in France it stated that everyone can become a noble and have full political and civic rights. But when parliament enacted constitution, Poland was invaded by Russia, Prussia and Austria and dissapeared from maps.



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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2006 at 09:20
Hi,
Well, thanks a lot. That is what one could call an answer quite complete.
Bye.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 19:35

As for administration i think this text written by Piotr Konieczny can answer on your questions about administration:

Officials in 1st Republic

 

 

Today official titles are abundant and hardly represent the ideal of clarity. But, believe it or not, it has been getting better over the past few centuries. Progress was here, and it is easy to see it when one examines how official structure looked a few hundred years agolets say around 163x.

 

First of all, there were several types of officials, which can be broadly divided into:

a)       government officials responsible for countrys functions, like Great Crown Chancellor;

b)       court officials responsible for royal court functions, like Master of the Royal Hunt;

Today we would not consider court official an important person. Master of Royal Hunt, it sounds almost ridiculous, does it?

Wrong! In fact, in 163x he took care not simply of royal hunts but he was in charge of countrys forests and other wild areas and their protection from poachers. So dont be mislead by the tiles while court officials often started doing just what their name suggested (most of those titles appeared around X-XII century, and the first written text with their names dates back to XII century to the chronicles of Gal Anonym), by XVII century they very often had other, more important duties.

 

Of course, there are exceptions to the rule. While some titles gained power (good example being marshal, who evolved from fairly unimportant person to one of the most powerful dignitaries) other lost their importance - like the title of the judge.

 

There are other problems with jumping to the conclusions. Sometimes, the name of one dignitary suggests that he was a subordinate of another. Neither Kings Cup-Bearer (czesnik) was senior to Master Cup-Bearer (podczaszy), nor was it the other way around.

 

Finally, Rzeczpospolita was composed of several very different provinces, and the local official titles were rarely the same often, some important dignitary in one province had no corresponding partner in another.

 

The above division into 2 groups was very broad. A more detailed one is here:

 

I.                       Senat-related officials (lists B-F)

II.                     Central not senat-related officials (list G)

III.                    Court officials (list G)

IV.                  Military officials (list H)

V.                    District officials (list I)

VI.                  Borough and judicial officials (list J)

VII.                 City and village officials (list K)

VIII.               Guild and union officials

 

As a side note, Polish parliament consisted of two chambers higher, Senat, where most important dignitaries were seated (and which will be described below), and lower, Sejm, with delegates of lesser nobles from Sejmiks (local parliaments).

 

 

On who could be an official

 

From XV to XVIII century only nobles could became an official. But not every noble could be one there were requirements of age of 23 years or greater and of having substantial personal wealth.

 

With varying degrees of success, the kings and more enlighten nobles tried to prevent the concentration of power in the hands of one or few persons, therefore there was a trend to make many titles.

 

 

On curiosities of Polish officials

 

Once a noble was chosen to be an official, he had a job for a lifetime. He could not be recalled unless he was convicted of high treason. If he agreed, he could be moved to an another, usually higher place in the hierarchy.

 

There were certain times various kings or nobles wanted to make the titles hereditary, but it has never become a reality. Rarely, the title passed from father to the son, but it was often considered a kings abuse of power by the rest of the nobles.

 

The most problematic was certainly the trading in offices. From the koszyce privilege of 1374 (przywilej koszycki), the king had the right to chose which person would become and official. This meant that selling the titles become an important source of income for the king. The title of Crown Deputy Chancellor went in 1638 for 60000 Hungarian ducats.

 

As one can imagine, the stories connected with this practice would make more then one good movie. Albrecht Radziwill describes in his diaries one such event: the election of District Judge of Luck (sedzia zemski luzycki) in 1643. One of the candidates brought with him a large group of well-armed nobles, the other a regiment of soldiers. Only kings mediation prevented the bloodshed.

 

In Poland, the titles had an additional function they replaced medals, which were deemed unfair by nobles (since all nobles considered themselves equalof course there always were more equal among equals, but it is another story). Therefore there was a clear division between officials nobles and normal nobles.

 

It went so far that even grandchildren of an official had the right to the title (which did not carry any power, as it was not hereditary, of course but the prestige remained).

 

 

On Senat-related officials

 

Senat of I Republic consisted of bishops, voivodes, castellans and ministers.

 

The list of dignitaries allowed to participate in the Senat was finalized in 1569.

 

The most important of all officials was the Primate, Archbishop of Gniezno. Since 1572, the first time Poland had no king, he was the interrex - acted as the head of the state until new king was elected. He represented the country and prepared elections for the new king. In addition he had the power to call for new Senat session, if he deemed it important, even if king was not present. He also could invoke the de non praestanda obedientia article, which gave the country a right to legally overthrow the king. From among the other senators, he chose his own court marshal (often one of the castellans). That person usually acted as a messenger from the archbishop during senat missing, by giving signs (moving the cross) he conveyed how he wishes his allies to vote. His two deputies were bishops of Wroclaw and Poznan.

 

Among the secular district officials, the first one was the Castellan of Cracow.

 

Power of voivodes was diminishing since the title was introduced around XII century. In 163x they were the most important of district officials. They were the highest representatives of their voivodship (province) to the Senat. They were the leaders of local parliaments (voivodships seimik - sejmiki wojewodzkie). They were in charge of assembling local military forces in case of common mobilistation (a specific mobilistation of all nobles in times of war). They chose a deputy voivode, who was responsible for setting local prices and measures. Voivodes were chosen by king, with the exceptions of voivodes of Polock and Vilnus who were elected locally (but still had to be approved by the king).

 

With the exception of the Castellan of Cracow, the other castellans were often considered to be subordinates of voivoides. They were in charge of a part of the voivodship (called castellanies till XV century, and from that time divided into provinces for Greater Castellans and powiats for Minor Castellans).

 

From 1565 the rule of incopatibila has forbidden the voivodes and castellans to hold a second title of a minister, other voivode or a starost, with the exception of hetman.

 

Ministers were what we would call today the central government officials. They consited of 10 officials (5 for Poland, 5 for Lithuania). Hetmans were also considered ministers but had no right to be sited in the Senat.

 

Ministers consisted of Great Crown Marshal, Great Lithuanian Marshal, Great Crown Chancellor, Great Lithuanian Chancellor, Crown Deputy Chancellor, Lithuanian Deputy Chancellor, Great Crown Treasurer, Great Lithuanian Treasurer, Court Crown Marshal and Court Lithuanian Marshal.

 

Court Marshals were considered the subordinates of Great Marshals. Lithuanian ministers, while had the same powers as Crown ones, were considered in hierarchy to be behind them.

 

Marshals duties consisted of providing security to the king and keeping order where he was present. They had 2 regiments of infantry, a regiment of militia and a special court (with a marshals judge, marshals writer and assessors.) Those courts dealt sentences on the spot, and there was no appeal. For the crimes like drawing a weapon near the king the penalty was death. Marshals court had the jurisdiction over all crimes committed on the court and by the courtiers.

 

When king traveled, marshals were the supervisors of local voivodes. They decided on who to admit for the royal audience. They were the masters and organizers of royal and court ceremonies (including weddings, funerals and such). They were the masters of court, kept track of lesser courtiers and set their pensions (if applicable). 

 

Each marshal had a marshals staff, which he received from the chancellor. In exchange, all chancellor nominations were heralded by marshals. If no marshal was present, their functions were carried out by a Great Treasurer or secular Great Chancellor.

 

On formal occasions and in travel, marshal preceded the king, carrying his staff, where appropriate.

 

Close after the marshals in the hierarchy were the chancellors.

 

From 1507, the title of Great Crown Chancellor was rotated between secular and ecclesiastic nobles.

Chancellor and his Deputy Chancellor (but not a subordinate!) were responsible for the work of two chancelleries, Greater and Minor one. They were supposed to be in constant contact and develop common policies. Among their responsibilities were the foreign and internal affairs. They had also judiciary powers, leading so called assessors courts, that were the highest appeal courts for people subjected to crowns laws (i.e. not subjected to ecclesiastic or magnates courts).

 

Chancellor often gave speeches representing the royal will. The symbol of their office was the seal, which was used to seal all documents passing through his office. He also sealed documents signed by the monarch and could refuse to seal a document he considered illegal or damaging to the country (such documents had no power without his seal). When the king died, the seal was destroyed during funeral and new one given to him by the succeeding king.

 

Therefore they were considered the guardians of the king and country, making sure the kings folly would not endanger the country by forcing it into an unnecessary war (and in fact, they prevented many wars in 163x, including the war with Turkey Wladyslaw wanted to wage after he was elected in 1632).

 

The chancellor powers combined with the fact that wars required funds, funds were given by the Senat, and nobles were usually unwilling to increase taxes and contributions, meant that Poland very rarely declared wars on its own. Usually it was attacked by its neighbors, and while it repelled all attacks till the end of XVIII centurty, it almost never capitalized on any of its victories. The army was undermanned and under equipped (since usually any suggestion of bigger military budget when enemy was not on the doorstep was considered warmongering) and lands of Rzeczpospolita were ravaged by new invasions, crippling its economy.

 

Back to the chancellors. They received no official wage, but instead a varying provisions or gifts from thankful clients of Chancellery. The ramifications in the area of corruption does not need to be discussed, I think :/

 

The Chancelleries were staffed with regent (the boss), secretaries, writers, clerks and metricants. Regent divided the work between the clerks. 2 secretaries (one responsible for private correspondence, second for official) presented the ready letters to the king for his signature. Writers designed the letters, clerks readied the final draft. No copies were made, but instead they were written into the books called Metrics, who were taken care by metricans (2 in Poland, 2 in Lithuania). Metrican of Great Chancellor was called Great Metrican, the one serving Deputy Chancellor was a Minor Metrican.

 

The staff of Chancellery had no wage, just like the Chancellors, but in the middle of eachreception room was the box into which all clients were supposed to deposit a varying amount of money, and nobody who planned on coming back could afford to be mean.

 

Last among the ministers were the Great Treasurers. They kept account of countrys finances, cash flow, State Treasury and controlled the making of coins. Since, like chancellors, they had no wages, corruption ran rampant and a sizable potion of state finances was lost in their pockets. If a Treasurer moved to another post, he had to presents accounts of his expenses, and if he died, his family was asked for them. A telling story is that of Boguslaw Leszczynski, who being a Great Treasurer (from 1650 to 1658) received an offer to become a Chancellor (which he accepted in 1658). He bribed all the members of parliament to grant him absolutory, and when one of them later opposed him, he asked, curious: Who is the son ofthat I have not paid off?

 

Great Treasurers supervised the lesser officials like mnicerz (who was in charge of coin production), dispensators, curators, tax collectors, superintendents, duty officers and sub-tax collectors. It is useful to remember that in those times, goods and people were taxed not only at borders, but at bridges, crossroads and city gates.

 

 

Central not Senat-related officials

 

As name suggests, non senat-related officials didnt have the right to vote in Senat.

 

The most important were the Great Secretaries (Crown and Lithuanian). Only an ecclesiastic person could be a great secretary. They were considered to be more important then all district and court officials, with the sole exception of court marshal. They could act as chancellors where no chancellor was present. They dealt with secret letters, in senat they read kings letters and or sejms declarations. They often acted as assessors and were called born assessors.

 

Next were 4 Referendaries, 2 Secular and 2 Ecclesiastic, one of each was Crowns, second Lithuanian.

They rarely left the royal court, and their duties comprised of listening to petitions and complains which they referred (hence their name) to the king. They acted also as judges in cases involving peasants from kings lands, and often acted as assessors in other courts.

 

Close to the office of Referandaries was the Instigator, or what we would call today Chief National Prosecutor. One for Crown, one for Lithuania, their duty was to uncover and deal with crimes against the king and the country, and had the power to accuse all dignitaries safe the king.


Then came the Great Writers 1 for Crown, 3 for Lithuania. Their duty was to clarify the royal decrees and send the letters to those dignitaries who must hear about them. They often acted as ambassadors and assessors.

 

Crown Keeper was the person responsible for safeguarding the Royal Treasury, were royal insignias were kept. Keys to the treasury were kept by Great Treasurer and 6 voivodes, and without all of them, it could not be opened. Traditionally, Crown Keepers where chosen among the priests of Cracows Cathedral.

 

From 1647, the ministers were joined by Great Postmaster, supervisor of the Royal Post, founded in 1547.

 

As mentioned earlier, the rule was that Polish officials had life long cadences. There were several notable exceptions from that rule.

 

The most important among them was the Senat Marshal, who chaired the Senat meetings. He could not decide the topic of the meeting, but could suggest it. Traditionally, the Senat Marshal title was rotated among the Senators from 2 provinces of Rzeczpospolita (Wielkopolska and Malopolska) and Lithuania.

 

Senat Marshal chose the Senat Secretary, who was in charge of keeping records of Senat meetings.

 

The highest Court for nobles was called The Tribunal, and was headed by Tribunal President and Marshal. Marshal was chosen from and by the judges themselves, while President dealt with matters involving ecclesiastics (and was a high-ranking priest himself).

 

The second Court was called Crown Treasury court. Wages for all judges were decided on Sejms meetings.

 

Mines were supervised by zupnik. Other less important dignitaries, nominated by king or Sejm to deal with specific short term problems were called commissars, lustrates, revisers, delegates, legates and deputies.

 

 

Court officials

 

Court officials are the most difficult to describe. Some held responsibilities important both the court and country, functions of others kept evolving during centuries. In time (usually with end of XVII century), the titles become only honorary and the king had to create another bunch of officials to deal with those responsibilities.

 

Court officials can be divided into those who dealt with king service and those who ensured the court and run smoothly (in XVI century, it consisted of approximately 1000-1500 people). Since the first group was not subjected to the rule of incompabilitias, they often held another title, usually that of a smaller district officials like starosta.

 

Among those who dealt with kings service, the most important one was the Master of the Kitchen, who supervised the kitchen staff and equipment as well as making of foods. During the feasts, he announced the dishes names.

 

Second was the Esquire Carver chose and started setting the table. During the feast, he directed the setting of dishes. He was aided by Lord High Steward during the feasts.

 

Master Food-Cutter finished setting the table (with table utensils and plates), and during the feast cut all dishes that require the usage of knife. After cutting them, he tasted them (in XVII century it was just a tradition, from the days that they were used to detect poison).

 

Drinks were dealt with by Master Cup-Bearer and King's Cup-Bearer. The first one tasted drinks, poured and ordered them, the second one served them to the king after receiving them from the former one.

 

For those that beared with me so far, here is a description of a banquet during king Zygmunt III reign in 1596, described by the secretary of papal nuncio (ambassador), Giorgio Paolo Mucante: "Each dish was first given, with a bow, by Master of the Kitchen to the Master Food-Cutter, who passed it to the Esquire Carver. He dipped a prepared piece of bread into the dish, touched it with his tongue and then threw it away into a nearby silver bin. It took quite a while before the king and the cardinal started eating, since they had to bear all the ceremonies. The Master Food-Cutter was bowing so often that I truly think that during that feast he bowed at least 3000 times"

 

The second group of the dignitaries was lead by Court Marshall (described above). Then there was:

-          Chamberlain   in charge if kings court and economy on crown grounds

-          Standard-keeper - carrying king's or country's banner

-          Sword-bearer - carrying sword before the king

-          Master of the Horse - in charge of kings stables and horse breeding grounds

-          Master of the Royal Hunt - organized hunts, guarded royal forests from poachers

-          Court Treasurer managed the finances of the king, kept account of his personal treasure and supervised the courts treasures

-          Kings Secretaries dealt with kings personal correspondence

-          Kings Chaplain headed the courts masses, supervised the liturgical courts treasures and headed the courts musicians

-          and a lot of other dignitaries, less and less important, dealing with things like food supplies, transport, etc.

 

Queen had her separate court, but it was staffed with women and its influence over the country was much smaller.

 

 

Military officials

 

Hetmans were the highest military officials. As most of the positions in I Rzeczpospolita, hetman was a job for life and couldnt be removed even if he was a poor commander. Until beginning of XVIII century, they were not paid for their job.

 

Hetmans were very independent; they could keep their own foreign contacts with Ottoman Empire, Russia and Tatars. They distributed the military budgets as they felt like and as the highest commanders and administrators, hetman made administrative and juridical law concerning military. From 1590 those had the same power as Sejms decisions.

 

Hetmans symbol was a mace, which was added to his coat of arms (see coats of arms of hetmans and several other dignitaries here: http://www.bezuprzedzen.pl/urzedy/urzedygaleria.html).

 

There were 2 types of hetmans (besides the division into Crown and Lithuanian) Great and Field. Field were subordinates of Great ones, and were sometimes called Border Hetmans, since they evolved from commanders of permanent garrisons on Polish south-eastern borders (which was a great school of combat, since it was a land almost constantly attacked by Ottomans and Tatars).

 

Cosaks were commanded by a commissar, chosen by the hetmans for the period of 2 years. Below hetmans were regimentars, the commanders of common mobilization in voivodships.

 

Hetmans and regimentars were accompanied by a Staff composed of officers named: Great Guardians, Field Guardians, Field Writers, Great Camp Leader and Field Camp Leaders.  Those officers were paid for their work (Lithuanian Field Guardian, Field Writer and Camp Leader received 15000 polish zlotys per year. Crown Field Writer received 30000 per year).

 

Great Guardian supervised the scout forces during movement and camping and commanded the front guard (however, if both hetmans were present, field one acted as Great Guardian).

 

Field Guardians were found only on the eastern borders.

Field Writers kept accounts of people, equipment and fortifications. He was in charge of paying soldiers wages.

 

Camp Leaders were responsible for choosing the current camping place for the armies, building the camps, logistics and security inside the camps.

"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 19:25

Originally posted by Maharbbal

Hi,
MMMazing. Mosquito has a really endless knowledge (repect).

Would you say this eastern commonwealth is a state or just an alliance of
various non-feudal-but-looking-very-much-like-it lordships? Specially,
what about the royal administration? Are there starosts somewhere else
than on the king's territories?

Thanks, keep on, bye.

Too many questions, it would take ages to write it all. Commonwealth (or Republic) of Poland and Lithuania was a federal state of 2 countries. There was 1 king, 1 parliament (with 2 chambers: Seym and Senate). It was divided on voivodships (districts) and each region had its own parliament. There were 2 armies: Army of the Crown (Poland) and army of Grand Duchy (Lithuania). Both armies were under command of king but had its own hetmans (marshals). The state was decentralised. Each city was an autonomic republic and had its own law.

Some info can be find here:

http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=polish_lithuan ian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth

 

"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 22:14
Hi again,
I'm reading something about Tudor Irland and it is amazing how much it
looks like the situation you're discribing (except the we're-attacking-
Russia part).
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 12:16
Hi,
MMMazing. Mosquito has a really endless knowledge (repect).

Would you say this eastern commonwealth is a state or just an alliance of
various non-feudal-but-looking-very-much-like-it lordships? Specially,
what about the royal administration? Are there starosts somewhere else
than on the king's territories?

Thanks, keep on, bye.
I am a free donkey!
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 09:45

I wouldnt say that it had to do somthing with feudalism. Before ill continue, read this wikipedia article:

Magnates in Poland

In Poland all members of the nobility (szlachta) were equal under the law. "Magnate" (Polish: magnat) was thus not an official title but rather a position of social class, based on wealth. Magnates (or higher nobility) vied for political power with the lesser and middle nobility (see Ruch egzekucyjny) and the Krol (Monarch). From the second half of the 17th century the magnates emerged as the victors in the struggle for power in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, as they were able to concentrate most of the land in their own hands and bribe smaller nobles to preserve the appearance of democracy: "Golden Liberty" in the parliaments, not only the local Sejmiks but also in the national Sejm.

There were several other terms for "magnate" in Poland:

  • Mony - "powerful one"; used up to the 15th century, later replaced by Magnat;
  • krlik, plural krlewita - "petty kings", used especially of magnates with large fiefdoms in Lithuania or Ukraine; rather negative (krl in Polish means "king", but the diminutive krlik also means "rabbit");
  • pan - lord (much later, by title devaluation, Mister); this could also apply to members of the common szlachta and was often used by people from other social classes;
  • starsi bracia - "older brothers"; all members of the szlachta referred to each other as Pan brat, but Magnates who were appointed to the Senate of Poland often styled themselves senior brothers, referring to the nobles from the Sejm ("parliament") as modsi bracia ("junior brothers");
  • karmazyn - "the crimson one", from their expensive crimson-coloured clothing (especially the boots).

Several Magnates held high feudal titles or peerage ranks such as prince or count. With few exceptions, mostly dating from the Union of Lublin, and special privileges permitting some Lithuanian magnates to use them, such titles were forbidden by law. Titles from offices however were very popular: see Offices in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

 

Now coming back to topic. As you see saying that it was an element of feudalism is rather wrong. Not to mention fact that there was no feudal hierarhy in Poland. I would say that rather it was more similar to Roman Republic before the rules of emperors.

Like in the Roman Republic nobles in Poland were equal, the richest of them were holding important offices and sitting in the Senate of Republic (or Commonwealth - this words in Polish means same).

Private armies of magnates were not their serfs like in feudalism but rather their clients - like in ancient Rome where powerful Romans had a lot of clients. Just like in Rome rich and powerful famillies were able to mobilise their clients and start external or internal conflict (remember familly Fabii - (from Fabius) in Rome who gathered 5000 clients and leaded them for war).

In fact many institutions were modeled or named after Romans (eg. Senate) but Poles that time didnt think that they are Romans but Sarmatians. They called their country "Republic of two nations" and somtimes even "Republic of both Sarmatia's".



Edited by Mosquito
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 03:58

Yes, you are right. The feudal lordship in Poland was something but it is so difficultly managed that propably in some point the Sejm agreed to rename it to private property, if such thing existed. Well, if you have 500 ha of land and the neighbour of you has 900, you must think that the 400 that he has more is too much for him and you must own it...

The wars had both gains, economical, diplomatical (in sense they became bigger and more powerful) and other.

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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 14:43
From beaver (ha ha ha):

Hi,

The initial question was: private or feudal?
These Polish lords had a political power based on land-property they
were trying to increase with violent means.
On the contrary a "private" fighter was seeking only economic reward.
Of course these distinctions are ideal-typic but I reckon they work quite
well

So the new question is am I right or I am right???.

Bye. Thanks Mosquito for these enlighting posts want more...
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 12:32

Oh yes, even now you remained unclear to me... this is even much more surprising as my understanding of English is much higher than any beaver can expect.

Well, could you ask your question in one simple sentence?

 

Mosquito, always you could picture something you like in a way you like it even more...

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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 20:23
Hi,
Thanks to both of you for your answers; even though it looks like I didn't
manage to explain clearly my point (which is hardly surprising
considering my English ). What I meant was these guys were (backward)
feudal fighters using their lordship as a social/political legitimacy for
their expeditions. Very far from the "military entrepreneur" character as
Albrecht von Wallenstein during the Thirty years war.
This Polish-Russian-Lituanian-Moldavian-Estonian-Whateverian example
proves in the same time in Europe you could have to ways of using
violence to make yourself rich and powerful: the good old feudal
wrestling and sub-contracting to the modern states (as conquistadores).
And a third: highway-thiefs and pirates.
Bye

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 16:54

I wanted to write about private wars in Moldavia and Wallahia but looks like Wikipedia got it well detailed. I think only one thing is wrong in that article, this what author call "Commonwealth forces", were in fact private armies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldavian_Magnate_Wars

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 16:48

Yes, the wars had private character because they were fought between private people and their private forces.

Polish nobles in the face of law were equal but economically very diversed. The richest were called "magnates" (from latin Magnus-great). Some of them owned more land than some states in Europe today. Next was going rich nobles who had many villages and towns. After them was even more of those who had one village or shared a village with others. Finally there was a lot of such nobles who had nothing but their sabers.

Magnates who were the richest, somtimes had even 10.000 soldiers strong armies equipped with modern weapons, divided on regiments of infantry, cavalry and artillery, dressed in their colours. Poorer but still rich nobles were paying for their poorer friends who in exchange were fighting for them. And very many had in their homes his own cossacks or tatars.

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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 12:47

Yes, very interesting.

The fact is that the Poles themselves call them private and in Estonian the civil wars of Poland are translated to: "Magnaatidevahelised sjad, sisesda or privaatsjad." Atleast I have seen them somewhere.

Now, they weren't really civil wars for for it to become a civil war, one must fight the king, but they fought themselves is my other opinion.

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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 17:01
Hi,
big troubles and huge headaches for the kings...
Also in what sense these wars were "private" (which involves a kind of
modernity) and not simply feudal?
For instance Middle Ages wars (including the Crasades) were feudal but
the European privateers in the XVIIth century or the Dutch pioneers in XIX
th century South Africa were fighting private wars for their own sake and
away from the feudal framework. In fact you only (I belive but I may be
perfectly wrong) can qualify a war as a private when you have such a
thing as public ones fought by fiscal-military states (and not feudal ones).
Anyway I liked this post very much, it was at least something new.
Bye and thanks
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 16:16

PRIVATE WAR AGAINST RUSSIA

or

TIMES OF TROUBLES (FOR RUSSIANS)

 

Now its time to talk about most famous private war which was invasion of Russia, dymitriada and civil war which was started by Polish nobles in Russia:

The story begins in the palace of Adam Wisniowiecki in 1603 in his private baths (unlike in western Europe in Poland nobles were enjoying it and kept themselves clean). One of the servants of Wisniowiecki was doing everything wrong what made his lord angry. Usually in such situations nobles were slapping faces of their servants and that was also what Wisniowiecki did. But his servant said that if his lord knew who he is, he would never slap his face. So Wisniowiecki asked his servant who the hell he think he is. The answer amazed him. Servant said that his name is Dimitri and that he is a son of Russian tsar Ivan the Terrible.

After death of Ivan the Terrible the power was held by regent Boris Godunov. It is said that he has killed the sons of the tsar because wanted to be the tsar himself. It is not sure if Wisniowiecki's servant was really the son of tsar or not. Historians are still quarelling about it.

But Wisniowiecki was pleased knowing that one of his lower rank servants is the rightous tsar of Russia. Polish nobles were very eccentric people. They liked everything what was strange, unusual and rare. They often kept on their courts dwarfs, unique cripples, sometimes even african animals such like for example girrafes. Everything what could have amaze their neighbours or make them envy was most wanted. First thought of Adam Wisniowiecki was probably "Wow! i have tsar of russia, noone in my province can have better pet than this". When Wisniowiecki told his friend, voivod Mniszech about his tsar, Mniszech invented plan to invade Russia and make Dimitri really a tsar. For making Dimitri tsar of Russia they demanded huge areas of Russia, a lot of cities, titles and affcourse a lot of gold. This was especially important for Mniszech who altough powerful, was completelly ruined. The daughter of voivod, Maryna Mniszech was supposed to marry with Dimitr and to become new Russian empress. Dimitri together with Wisniowiecki and Mniszech started recruit men for campaign. Thousands of poor and landless Polish nobles were coming to join them, after them came Cossacks from Ukraine and even Tatars. Banits and infamis'es, criminals of all types, unemployed mercenaries. Everyone who had only life to loose, wanted to get gold of Russia. The army finally had 5000 soldiers, maybe undisciplined but experienced. One can say, that 5000 against all Russia is not much. But in this case was enough.

 Dimitri, Wisniowiecki and Mniszech were afraid of deafeat before they entered  Russia. When were crossing Ukraine were in danger that another powerfull noble Janusz Ostrogski will attack their army with his private forces, because Ostrogski was their enemy and didnt like the idea of their expedition. But finally without being attacked they achieved Russian border and felt safe, at least from other Poles. Russian cities were surrendering on their way. Finally tsar Boris Godunov sent against them his army under command of prince Mscislavski but Poles and Cossacks obliterated them. Later there was a second battle which nobles lost and almost desintegrated but reformed after heard news about death of tsar Boris Godunov.  All Russian garrisons were surrendering and joining to false tsar Dimitr who finally entered Moscow and crowned himself. It was year 1605 AD. Maryna Mniszech became his wife and empress. After their succes even more of poor Poles and cossakcs came to Russia to join them. But Poles and cossacks didnt come to Russia for fun. In other words, they were raping thousands of women, murdering thousands of people, plundering, pillaging and burning russian cities and villages. Most of them didnt want to stay there with Dimitri and Maryna, their plan was to come back to Poland rich, very rich. Behaviour of Poles and of Dimitri who was doing moreless the same what his Polish friends raised rebelious moods between Russian boyars and paesantry. The plot was started by boyar Vasili Shuisky. He leaded the people of Moscow, boyars and paesants against Poles, killed many of them and murdered tsar. The empress Maryna Mniszech and most of the Poles who were in Moscow were imprisoned. Vasili Shuisky made himself new Tsar.

Dimitri Tsar of All Russia was dead. Polish nobles decided that if they cant have old Dimitri, they must make new one. They picked russian named Ivan Bolotnikov and claimed that it is their old Dimitri who havent been killed in Moscow and escaped. As Polish commander Stanislav Zolkiewski wrote "Second Dimitri didnt even look simialar to first Dimitri. The only thing in which they were similar was that they both were men".

This time even more Poles came to Moscow and even more powerful nobles joined to second false Dimitri. Tsar Vasili IV (Vasily Shuisky) send all his armies against the Poles. It was year 1608. The army gathered by Roman Rozynski defeated the army of Tsar Shuisky in the battle of Wolohov and marched toward Moscow. Next in the battle of Khodynka another Russian army, commanded by prince Skopin Shuisky (relative of tsar) was obliterated. Tsar Vasili IV wanted to make peace. As a gesture of good will he released empress Maryna, her father Jerzy Mniszech and all the Poles he had. He sent Russian troops and ordered them to escort "empress", her father and Poles to the border of Polish-Lithuanian Republic. On the way they were caught by some Polish ruffiants who were pillaging countryside and brought to the main polish camp. Here all the people wittnessed a romantic scene. Maryna recognised "second false Dimitri" as her husband. In echange for 300.000 rubles in gold and 14 castles in Russia Jerzy Mniszech also resognised him as his old son in law. The private armies of false Dimitri and Polish nobles started siege of Moscow. Before it endend situation has changed. The parliament of Republic and the king declared war against Russia. Royal army under command of hetman Zolkiewski left Poland and marched toward Moscow. It caused great disorder in all the private armies that were besieging Moscow. Their "excursion" was illegal. Nobles were afraid for their lifes and soon started deserting and joining the royal army. King of Poland wanted to make a tsar himself. False Dimitri fled from Polish camp. In 1610 Zolkiewski and his royal army of 7000 soldiers in the battle of Klushino defeated joined armies of Russians and Swedes (all together 35000 soldiers). After the battle Zolkiewski took Moscow. The nobles and their army now was panicked. It was looking like that they are the next target of Zolkiewski and king's army. In this moment one of the most influent leaders of "private army" Piotr Sapieha surrendered and offered his own services and his men to Zolkiewski. The private war was over. All what happend next was an official conflict between Republic and Russia.

Short Wikipedia article about those events:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_Troubles



Edited by Mosquito
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 11:22
Originally posted by Ranko

Those private wars weren't dangerous for the firmness of the state?

Internal fights between private armies of the nobles were, in fact, civil wars. Civil war ever weaken the state.

I read that troublesome nobles and the possibiliy to stop every decision by nobles using the "liberum veto" dwindle the Poland's force during second half of XVII and XVIII century......... is that true?  

Well, luckilly for Poland and Lithuania only few border provinces were suffering from those private wars. Affcourse it was destabilising the state but somtimes it was also helping polish army. Any infamis or banit that acted with bravery against enemy could have had his sentence abolished by the king or by the parliament of the Commonwealth.

As for liberum veto it became one of the main reasons why Polish -Lithuanian state collapsed and felt into anarchy.

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