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Posts: 4361 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: South Albania/Northern Epirus
    Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 04:59
Originally posted by Oguzoglu

Please guysstick on the topic.


No need anymore.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 04:53

No, you know Greeks like us two are not usually blonde.

Bah, we noble Greeks arent blondes for sure, but I didnt expect such answer from a Slav, since I've been all around the Balkans and saw a majority of blondes there...

Funny that most of the 100 000 Orthodox Greeks were ousted from Istanbul in 1955, yet Muslims of Turkish origin were (and still are) tolerated in Greece.

So I guess you are uninformed about the population exchange btw Turkey and Greece. Muslims beyond western Thrace and Salonika were exchanged with Christians of Izmir, Aydin, Fethiye etc. (Aegean).

Toleration? The Greek government doesnt even recognize a Turkish minority, as we recognize a Greek one. But the actions about Rums of Istanbul were really sad, I agree with that. They dont belong to Athens or Morea, but Istanbul.

May I remind you that this is a topic about Albanians/Greeks and not about Turkish/Greek relationships. Please stick to that and don't start another round.

Dont worry, I am sorry. Please guys stick on the topic.
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Posts: 488 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2005 at 19:58

Funny that most of the 100 000 Orthodox Greeks were ousted from Istanbul in 1955, yet Muslims of Turkish origin were (and still are) tolerated in Greece.



Edited by Artaxiad
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Posts: 1096 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2005 at 19:45
Originally posted by Oguzoglu

Originally posted by strategos

Originally posted by Oguzoglu

Hellas does belong to the Hellines, just as Germany belongs to the Germans, France to the French etc.

What about the minorities that Greece doesnt recognize as other nationalities, such as Turks of Western Thrace, Albanians, Macedonians etc.? Doesnt Greece also belong to them?

Because there are muslim minorities does not make them turks. They are mostly greek muslims, just as alot of turkish population are muslim greeks,

Strategos, are you a blonde? Just out of curiosity...

No, you know Greeks like us two are not usually blonde.

Komnenos, you should close this topic then since it has been exhausted of materials for now,



Edited by strategos
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Posts: 4361 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2005 at 18:31
May I remind you that this is a topic about Albanians/Greeks and not about Turkish/Greek relationships. Please stick to that and don't start another round.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2005 at 18:22
Originally posted by strategos

Originally posted by Oguzoglu

Hellas does belong to the Hellines, just as Germany belongs to the Germans, France to the French etc.

What about the minorities that Greece doesnt recognize as other nationalities, such as Turks of Western Thrace, Albanians, Macedonians etc.? Doesnt Greece also belong to them?

Because there are muslim minorities does not make them turks. They are mostly greek muslims, just as alot of turkish population are muslim greeks,

Strategos, are you a blonde? Just out of curiosity...
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Posts: 1096 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2005 at 17:51
Originally posted by Oguzoglu

Hellas does belong to the Hellines, just as Germany belongs to the Germans, France to the French etc.

What about the minorities that Greece doesnt recognize as other nationalities, such as Turks of Western Thrace, Albanians, Macedonians etc.? Doesnt Greece also belong to them?

Because there are muslim minorities does not make them turks. They are mostly greek muslims, just as alot of turkish population are muslim greeks,
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2005 at 17:41

Hellas does belong to the Hellines, just as Germany belongs to the Germans, France to the French etc.

What about the minorities that Greece doesnt recognize as other nationalities, such as Turks of Western Thrace, Albanians, Macedonians etc.? Doesnt Greece also belong to them?
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Posts: 694 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2005 at 18:29
Hey Strategos. Here is something on the subject.

Nationality map of east central and Southeast Europe 1989-1992

It shows, as known, that Gjirokaster and Sarande were the hotbeds of the Greek minority.



Edited by Iskender Bey ALBO
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Posts: 694 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2005 at 04:52
500.000 (no typo) ilegal immigrants that won't be deported, cause I obviously can't.


Im actually for this. it would be rough at first but then we can start repopulating some of the dead villages in the country, especially the south. Albania is in dire need to its emmigrants back right now, peopel are crowding in Tirana, while the farmers are dissappearing. If Albania and Greece can harden the borders afterwards, or if the two make punishment for moving illegally harsher, then those persisted Albs will decline. However my proposition usually tends to get the "un-European" stamp. But I agree, Greece should be for Greeks as any other European country should be for its citizens. Just in recent years the average age in Albania has skyrocketed, not because its a declining in population growth but because all of the young are becoming diaspora. This is very damaging, but there is little money for such commidities as border controls. There is little we can actually do but hope EU can help fix things up. Just recently in Korce, a sort of job service in Greece was opened, people there could live in Albania but come to work in Greece. I read this article a while back I dont know how it works out. But while the individuals who are liking it, its the masses in Albania who will suffer from the increase in imports, of which the amount already is staggering for such a small country.

On top of all this, I can only imagine what kind of effect immigration of that high number would be,especially for a nation of 10 million.


Edited by Iskender Bey ALBO
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Posts: 1134 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 17:32
Actually, here in the south there are many many Albanians, who work in the following job categories:
Agricultural jobs - fruit harvesting, field maintenance, loaders.
Services: Cleaners, builders-technicians, guards.

However, they now have reached the second generation, with most of them having children already in the final classes primary school. So I expect that, in roughly 5-6 years, we will have the first significant groups of Albanians in university candidacy. Then society will start evolving.
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Posts: 1835 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 17:11
Originally posted by Phallanx


vulkan02

While there aren't many deadly attacks against the Hellinic population, stabbings mostly among the Albanian community are actually seen not on a day to day basis, but such events are quite common.

Fruit pickers yes, but supermarkets or butcher's shop don't really see anyone turning that down. Well most butcher's are actually a family buisness that will pass from father to son unless its sold.

On fruit pickers it wasn't even a month ago that farmers in the North of Hellas were asking for working hands I think they accepted a couple of thousand in to solve this issue.
But then again you don't have fruit all year long and if the immigrants employed don't return home after the picking season is over, you still have a population problem. How will they support themselves with only a months wage, where will they live....etc?

An interesting example, a friend went to the States last year (not for work) and wasn't allowed to enter cause he was $250 short of the 'money limit' needed to be accepted for 3 months.
From what he told me, they have set up a specific amount of money you must have to be able to support yourself during your stay.
When the US does it its called 'immigration control' (or whatever) when we deport immigrants we're prejudice  racists


A lot of Albanians that work in Greece... especially peasants usually stay there for some time and then they come back in Albania to rebuilt their houses or whatever with the money that they make. A lot of others of course who are better educated land other more secure and higher paying jobs.

well yeah but the U.S. can control only the people who come by air and its doing a lousy job at that too. the mexicans, cubans and other carribean people who come by simply crossing the border or through sea are too hard to be prevented from entering the country. This however doesn't mean that they are promptly deported after that... they simply work low paying cash jobs just like Albanians in Greece.
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Posts: 1283 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 14:51
Tobodai

Sorry but that just doesn't make sence.
Listen to what you said:

*Yes, crime rate has increased.
*Yes, it did increase after the immigrants arrived.
*But police are prejudice and blame everything on immigrants.

Anyway, it isn't only Albanians. They just happen to be the largest immigrant population in Hellas, you can't compare approx. 1 million Albanians to some 15.000 Nigerians, number difference is the basic reason they are pointed at alot easier than any other ethnicity.


vulkan02

While there aren't many deadly attacks against the Hellinic population, stabbings mostly among the Albanian community are actually seen not on a day to day basis, but such events are quite common.

Fruit pickers yes, but supermarkets or butcher's shop don't really see anyone turning that down. Well most butcher's are actually a family buisness that will pass from father to son unless its sold.

On fruit pickers it wasn't even a month ago that farmers in the North of Hellas were asking for working hands I think they accepted a couple of thousand in to solve this issue.
But then again you don't have fruit all year long and if the immigrants employed don't return home after the picking season is over, you still have a population problem. How will they support themselves with only a months wage, where will they live....etc?

An interesting example, a friend went to the States last year (not for work) and wasn't allowed to enter cause he was $250 short of the 'money limit' needed to be accepted for 3 months.
From what he told me, they have set up a specific amount of money you must have to be able to support yourself during your stay.
When the US does it its called 'immigration control' (or whatever) when we deport immigrants we're prejudice  racists


Edited by Phallanx
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Posts: 1835 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 13:59
Albanians in Greece commit crimes such as drugs and prostitution but homicide usually happens mostly in Albania. However most Albanians just go to Greece to work in jobs that Mexicans do in the USA such as fruit pickers and packers, butchers, they work in supermarkets, and other jobs of such nature that not many other Greeks would like to do anyways.
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Posts: 4310 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 12:58
Actually the way I heard it was that Albanians and immigrants may ghave slightly increased the crime, but the reasons that it seemed like such a large percentage was because the Greek police just blamed everything on Albanians and just went after their crimes.  I heard that the crime rate actually went up because the police always went after Albanians no matter what and any Greek who was a criminal wasnt pursued.
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Posts: 1283 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 11:03
Semantics no, it's just that the use of 'lie' seemed a bit harsh.

No one claims that they are born to kill, loot.etc and I am sure that some circumstances lead them to it. But, there is a but.
While the state is unable to absorb them as you also note, no one asked why should they be absorbed???

We aren't any kind of super economy and I strongly believe that not one of the so called strong economies could absorb in just one decade the % of immigrants we have.
Imagine France, with a population of 60million, trying to absorb the 13% we did. That would mean approx 8.000.000 people in a decade.
Should we look at Germany. Well the situation is quite different but just look at what happened to their economy after uniting with East.
Total chaos.

Hellas does belong to the Hellines, just as Germany belongs to the Germans, France to the French etc.
You want a part of Hellas, sure no objection, but first, come in legally, obtain citizenship and its all yours, then and only then are you entitled to all the same rights all legal citizens have and to the rights the taxpayers have.

This isn't racsist, it's simple logic that Hellinic economy can not support a 13 or larger % population increase in such a small amount of time. Our economy can't stand them, there aren't enough jobs and the state isn't prepared to absorb them.

Yesterday they announce that all deportations are in abeyance.
Can you present a solution for the 500.000 (no typo)  ilegal immigrants that won't be deported, cause I obviously can't.
Let's at least hope our goverment can.
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Posts: 2329 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 10:10

Originally posted by Phallanx

Exaggeration OK, that I can accept, but lie???

You want to play with semantics?

In any case, the data that you present are quantitative but not qualitative enough. Meaning that a much larger % of immigrants is in prison because they lack adequate defence during trial, or are not able to pay for bail, or simply because the jury discriminates against them.

I'm sure you'll agree with me when I say that immigants resort to crime not because of a "natural inclination" to it, but because of the inability of the Greek state to absorve them with legal ways and to support them with adequate civil services & to include them in Greek institutions and structures. Greece does not belong to the Greeks but to all those who chose to live in it (in accordance to the Law) and they should all enjoy same rights as we Greeks do.

 



Edited by Yiannis
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Posts: 1283 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 08:46
Exaggeration OK, that I can accept, but lie???

Re Yianni,  you live in Hellas, there is no way you haven't noticed these events. When in a population of 10 million Hellines you add 1.5-2 mill. 'foreigners' and see that this approx 13% commits half if not more of the crimes in the country, then something is going on here. Simple logic.

Here's a link :
http://www.in.gr/news/article.asp?lngEntityID=472345
(unfortunately in Hellinic)
Note that the article clearly states that out of 216 murders 216 were Hellines and 91 were foreigners which means that 1 out of two were foreigners when we've already cleared that they are only the 13%

These are the statistics given by the Ministry of Public Order:


omicide

Year    Natives     Change %  Immigrants  Change%       Immigrants as  Natives
% % %
1991 204   25   12%
1992 231 13% 34 36% 15%
1993 257 11% 34 0% 13%
1994 244 -5% 34 0% 14%
1995 228 -7% 40 18% 18%
1996 241 6% 62 55% 26%
1997 222 -8% 81 31% 36%
1998 201 -9% 66 -19% 33%
1999 175 -13% 97 47% 55%
2000 214 22% 62 -36% 29%
2001 185 -14% 92 48% 50%
2002 187 1% 91 -1% 49%
2003 189 1% 113 24% 60%
214 -0,6% 64 13,4% 30%


Notes:

*The % of Hellinic participation is reduced each year by approx.0.6%
*The participation of Immigrants is increased by approx. 13.4% per year.
* The participation of Immigrants in homicides is steadily increased from 12% in 1991 to 60% in 2003


Rapes.

Year    Natives     Change %  Immigrants  Change%       Immigrants as  Natives
% % %
1991 207   29   14%
1992 216 4% 39 34% 18%
1993 201 -7% 38 -3% 19%
1994 162 -19% 29 -24% 18%
1995 166 2% 25 -14% 15%
1996 118 -29% 34 36% 29%
1997 149 26% 41 21% 28%
1998 124 -17% 52 27% 42%
1999 136 10% 47 -10% 35%
2000 180 32% 66 40% 37%
2001 127 -29% 54 -18% 43%
2002 141 11% 64 19% 45%
2003 121 -14% 97 52% 80%
157 -4,4% 47 10,6% 30%

 

Robbery:

Year    Natives     Change %  Immigrants  Change%       Immigrants as  Natives

% % %
1991 543   59   11%
1992 909 67% 139 136% 15%
1993 932 3% 129 -7% 14%
1994 564 -39% 128 -1% 23%
1995 586 4% 168 31% 29%
1996 436 -26% 98 -42% 22%
1997 374 -14% 181 85% 48%
1998 516 38% 326 80% 63%
1999 603 17% 344 6% 57%
2000 616 2% 241 -30% 39%
2001 570 -7% 279 16% 49%
2002 642 13% 310 11% 48%
2003 710 11% 273 -12% 38%
615 2,3% 206 13,6% 37%


Possesion of Fire arms:

Year    Natives     Change %  Immigrants  Change%       Immigrants as  Natives

% % %
1998 997   233   23%
1999 1161 16% 155 -33% 13%
2000 1766 52% 232 50% 13%
2001 1900 8% 311 34% 16%
2002 1871 -2% 281 10% 15%
2003 1747 -7% 308 10% 18%
1574 11,9% 253 5,7% 16%

 

Smuggling:

Year    Natives     Change %  Immigrants  Change%       Immigrants as  Natives

% % %
1991 139   6   4%
1992 284 104% 9 50% 3%
1993 175 -38% 27 200% 15%
1994 234 34% 15 -44% 6%
1995 189 -19% 45 200% 24%
1996 115 -39% 108 140% 94%
1997 137 19% 112 4% 82%
1998 181 32% 289 158% 160%
1999 168 -7% 174 -40% 104%
2000 186 11% 233 34% 125%
2001 194 4% 212 -9% 109%
2002 226 16% 220 4% 97%
2003 210 -7% 360 64% 171%
188 3,5% 139 40,7% 83%


Fraud:

Year    Natives     Change %  Immigrants  Change%       Immigrants as  Natives

% % %
1991 408   14   3%
1992 400 -2% 18 29% 5%
1993 427 7% 15 -17% 4%
1994 390 -9% 16 7% 4%
1995 406 4% 15 -6% 4%
1996 419 3% 32 113% 8%
1997 422 1% 42 31% 10%
1998 314 -26% 41 -2% 13%
1999 364 16% 81 98% 22%
2000 533 46% 59 -27% 11%
2001 530 -1% 62 5% 12%
2002 478 -10% 78 26% 16%
2003 420 -12% 91 17% 22%
424 0,2% 43 16,9% 10%


Theft- Break ins

Year    Natives     Change %  Immigrants  Change%       Immigrants as  Natives

% % %
1991 7242        
1992 7053 -3%      
1993 7273 3%      
1994 6989 -4%      
1995 7603 9%      
1996 5532 -27%      
1997 6065 10%      
1998 3870 -36% 3139   81%
1999 3983 3% 2929 -7% 74%
2000 4625 16% 2597 -11% 56%
2001 5036 9% 2214 -15% 44%
2002 5210 3% 2527 14% 49%
2003 5507 6% 2447 -3% 44%
5845 -1,8% 2642 -4,9% 58%



Forgery:

Year    Natives     Change %  Immigrants  Change%       Immigrants as  Natives

% % %
1991 426   72   17%
1992 468 10% 55 -24% 12%
1993 370 -21% 47 -15% 13%
1994 401 8% 69 47% 17%
1995 260 -35% 78 13% 30%
1996 233 -10% 71 -9% 30%
1997 216 -7% 108 52% 50%
1998 222 3% 996 822% 449%
1999 250 13% 1504 51% 602%
2000 266 6% 1802 20% 677%
2001 401 51% 1668 -7% 416%
2002 532 33% 3240 94% 609%
2003 494 -7% 2787 -14% 564%
349 1,2% 961 35,6% 289%


Beggary:

Year    Natives     Change %  Immigrants  Change%       Immigrants as  Natives

% % %
1991 129   19   15%
1992 176 36% 30 58% 17%
1993 416 136% 33 10% 8%
1994 596 43% 72 118% 12%
1995 454 -24% 69 -4% 15%
1996 525 16% 242 251% 46%
1997 799 52% 446 84% 56%
1998 107 -87% 302 -32% 282%
1999 172 61% 365 21% 212%
2000 213 24% 480 32% 225%
2001 208 -2% 637 33% 306%
2002 160 -23% 355 -44% 222%
2003 193 21% 255 -28% 132%
319 3,4% 254 24,2% 80%


Stealing literary property (cd's etc.)

Year    Natives     Change %  Immigrants  Change%       Immigrants as  Natives

% % %
1998 102   14   14%
1999 387 279% 152 986% 39%
2000 337 -13% 297 95% 88%
2001 503 49% 518 74% 103%
2002 555 10% 1206 133% 217%
2003 328 -41% 1860 54% 567%
369 26,3% 675 165,9% 171%



Here is another table presented by the newspaper Ethnos.


 %
%
2.888 955 1.140 58 42
252 208 227 37 63
229 243 171 36 64
54 26 25 51 49
14 29 4 30 70
19 133 69 22 76
26 27 27 32 66
822 213 433 56 44
96 48 68 45 55





Edited by Phallanx
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Posts: 2329 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 07:32

Originally posted by Phallanx

, crime rate hitting a record high % and 99.8% being commited by these very immigrants/refugees, .

While I don't necessarily disagree with the "shock" of the Greek society with the rapid increase of legal/illegal immigrants, the figures presented above are a plantant lie!

All statistics show no significant increase of crime rate, due to the immigrants and that the vast majority of the crimes are still being commited by Greek citizens.
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Posts: 1283 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 04:49
Actually since yesterday all measures, like deportation..etc  are in abeyance. While there is a discrimination towards all immigrants/refugees and especially Albanians,  this isn't due to some racist hatred but more because of fear of the unknown, well against Albanians there are a number of issues, but.....

You must understand that Hellas up to some 10yrs ago didn't have any kind immigrants/refugees or did, but in very small numbers.
So suddenly when this this closed community where everyone knew everyone, saw some 1,5-2.000.000 'invading', taking their jobs, crime rate hitting a record high % and 99.8% being commited by these very immigrants/refugees, simple logic says that some reaction would appear and it did in the form of the descrimination you mention.

I remember that not so long ago I could leave my windows wide open, my key on the door with absolutely no worry, no fear. Literally no one dares to do something similar today. You know that if you attempt it, you're a goner. This among other 'events' has lead to this.

But this is actually no different to what Hellinic, Italian or whatever other immigrants came across when they went to the US, Canada, Germany...etc. the difference is that these countries/communities have had time to adapt and finally accept the immigrants/refugees in their community,(but we can always note exeptions) while here the whole issue is still 'fresh'.
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