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Muslims Protest Wikipedia Images of Muhammad

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  Quote Richard XIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Muslims Protest Wikipedia Images of Muhammad
    Posted: 13-Mar-2008 at 09:39
If somebody needs a protest against Napoleon's horse I'll participate!
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2008 at 01:29
The photos are of an educational nature trying to convey certain major events that defined his mission, and also the community. Thus they were made not as devotional but rather educational pieces. Personally they do not offend me, nor should they be censored there are numerous Ottoman miniatures of the Prophet as well. They are done with great care and artistic ability and should be judged as thus; artpieces. Should they belong in the Wiki article; well like Ako brilliantly noted above it is a matter of opinion. Some people feel strongly that they should not upon religious convictions, on the other hand some feel that they should or have no opinion also on religious convictions, while some others unrelated to them feel they have historical value. Those are all viable opinions. And all members of Wiki should have enough say in creation of pages on the site as it is a community engagement. Omar also has a point that the article itself is a common piece on Wiki that like most others should not be used as credible reference, too.

I personally do not mind them, but it is up to the Wiki community, Muslims who deem it improper included to come up with a solution to it.
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 21:37
Hey Guys,
 
Allow me to weigh in, if you would...
 
It seems to me that the issue of whether or not the depictions should remain is entirely separate from the issue of whether or not a protest by the Muslim community is justified. Of course we have freedom of speech in the West, and of course there are places in the world that do not share this; thus, the depictions should certainly remain, for English Wikipedia deals with things in a Western context.
 
That said, Muslims the world over certainly have the right to protest the inclusion of the depictions of Mohammed in the article. These protests do not seek to limit free-speech; rather, they are ample evidence of free-speech. These critics, by asking that something be removed, are not seeking to censor, but to work the free-market of ideas to their advantage, as we all seek to do, whether we acknowledge it or not. They are simply voicing their displeasure with something that has been included in an article on a website of global importance, and should certainly not be discouraged from doing so -- that would be attempting to limit free-speech. After all, it would seem that the quotes posted, with their overly conciliatory tone, hardly represent the sort of threatening confrontationalism that we have come to dread from the vocal minority of the Muslim world.
 
The people who signed that petition are completely entitled to their opinion, and it should be dealt with maturely, and not with a dismissive -- and inaccurate -- accusation of censorship. These devout Muslims, like any other member of Wikipedia, are entitled to their voice, and surely there is a method for determining whether or not the images possess sufficient historical merit to warrant their inclusion. It is a shame that when this sort of displeasure is vocalized in a mature way -- a way in which we have repeatedly encouraged the Muslim community to act -- by a group of Muslims, we dismiss it on a whim, based upon the actions of less rational groups in the past. Perhaps it is we, in the West, who need to examine our objectivity on this one. 
 
-Akolouthos
 
P.S. I support the inclusion of the image in the article, believing it is of sufficient historical significance to merit inclusion. That said, has a compromise been proposed, under which the image would be linked from the main article with an explanation? I feel this would bee foolish and unnecessary, but it seems like it should have come up in discussion.
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 21:14
These pictures have no relation with real prophet and noone say censor it.
So the original artist didn't intend it to be a picture of Muhammed?
Should we take all paintings off since they aren't actual photographs the people? I mean, all paintings can just be interpretations, we don't know for sure. And alot of art forms don't even show people realisticly, it can be argued that this Muhammed is alot mor accurate then the mainstream portrayal of Jesus is. So the idea of it not having any relation to it doesn't seem like a good arguement to get rid of it all, especially when it was the artists portrayal of Muhammed.
If I want to learn Maria careh, this does not mean wiki should show me Maria careh and her sex with her husband.. 
Well, I'm sure they have sites for that, but thats not considered education. A photo of her is something you will find, nude no.
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  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 20:12
I will only place my stand here since I know how debated this is:

Considering the fact that all depictions are a part of Islamic history and give us a clue as to how various Islamic cultures perceived Muhammed or how he influenced their art, the pictures have every right to remain.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 19:52
Originally posted by Mortaza

haha. so no problem with sex videos? Hmm, wiki would be more entertaining.
 


have you ever checked out articles about genitals, and certain sexual practices?
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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 10:28
haha. so no problem with sex videos? Hmm, wiki would be more entertaining.


There's a difference between censorship and academic standards. Pornography would not be permissible in an encyclopedia, unless it was 1. an encyclopedia specifically focusing on sexual acts (i.e. the Kama Sutra) or 2. it was an instructional guide in the mechanics.

The reason the pictures of Muhammad are up there are not to offend. It's not as if it is the only article with pictures. Wikipedia is following their own standards and their standards are pictures belong to historical persons when pictures or representations are available.

Also Wikipedia does respect different cultures via the different languages, for instance the Muhammad article in Arabic and Turkish does not contain any images of the prophet, and the Farsi article has a few pictures of Muhammad. Wikipedia takes into account the feelings of the majority of the people who will read the article, and thus many more english speakers are non-muslim then are muslim, and as not even all muslims can agree that images of the prophet are blasphemous I don't see why the minority should dictate any policies.

Also correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the ban on images of the prophet a Hadith and not part of the actual Quran and thus it is up to the individual muslim whether he follows it or not?
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 16:17
haha. so no problem with sex videos? Hmm, wiki would be more entertaining.
 
Anyway, we are begining to repeating ourself. If wiki is for muslim too, She should care feeling of muslims too. (I am sure christians will not be much sorry If they see this pictures at the persian art or other pages.)
 
I have nothing to add. Thanks for discussion
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 15:36
The page on Napoleon has more than 10 pictures, most of them 'unnecessary' as well (Napoleon on a horse? ridiculous! I want to get info on Napoleon, not on his horse). I don't hear anyone protesting against those.
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 15:24
please, what are you talking. It is unnecessary extra pictures. I am sure, If You do not see these pictures, You will not loss any knowledge about life of Muhammet.
 
This is not censoring history. Why are you always talk about something which has no relation with reality.
 
These pictures have no relation with real prophet and noone say censor it.
 
If I want to learn life of Muhammet. That is all. Not his depictions.
 
If I want to learn Maria careh, this does not mean wiki should show me Maria careh and her sex with her husband.. 
 
why dont wiki also put other pictures, after all they are depiction of Muhammed too. Lets make life of prophet as a cartoon movie.
 
No need to hide after "freedom of speech"
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 15:03
Wikipedia is ment for educational purposes, to bring about facts and the chance of learning, as is any unbiased source of education. If you were to talor to all groups so that you won't be offensive or to be PC, then you will lose alot more then you will gain.
 
Yes, it's just a picuture, but after caving to those demands, whats next? Another group will come up and maybe ask for a article to be taken out and so on. But on top of this, the picture is also historical, it's not a interpretation of someone's work today and if it was it'd be called art. You might have more grounds to argue there, but censoring History, alot of people are against that.
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 15:02
Originally posted by Mixcoatl

I expect this will lead to the creation of Muslipedia.


muslipedia


hmmmmm sacrilcious



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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 13:29

Not excatly. As I said before, I will protest and not enter wikipedia.

If wikipedia is not for muslims. No problem for me. (I just cannot understand why are we discussing muslim protest to wikipedia, what should muslim do?)
 
 


Edited by Mortaza - 08-Mar-2008 at 13:30
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 13:10
Originally posted by Mortaza

It is like pig meat. No problem for you but unacceptable for me.  So why are you forcing people to eat pig meat.

It's rather the other way around. You are expecting non-muslims follow the rules of a religion that's not theirs, so this is rather comparable you are requiring us not to pig meat.
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  Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 11:05
Originally posted by Seko

Who you talking at boy?


THe people who want to censor stuff!
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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 08:04
arent you trying to enforce your ideas over us?


Actually what wiki is trying to do is to make it so you don't enforce your ideas on them.

Unfortunately whenever for example, a groups opinions aren't being reflected by wiki it seems like they don't listen to that groups opinions, even if wiki is just doing it's own things. That I think is the problem with the muhammad article, I personally wouldn't be a problem with them "minimizing the images" so that they do not show up but still with the caption so people can click on it to bring the images back. I don't think there should be a warning as someone suggested in the discussion section of the article, but a description should be well enough.


Yes. What do you think Wahabbi's are reacting against? Its pretty rare now, but go back 2 centuries in less educated areas and you'll find it. Just as if you go to less educated areas in the catholic world you'll find people praying to Mary.


Exactly but it isn't the fault of the image or the icon that the person prays to it. Why should idiots dictate what educational institutions policies are.
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 07:47
Paul haha.
 
 
It is like pig meat. No problem for you but unacceptable for me.  So why are you forcing people to eat pig meat. It is wrong for me. If a company want me as customer, should not offer pig meat to me.
 
arent you trying to enforce your ideas over us?
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 02:37
Surely it would be better to delete the whole article and not have one.
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 01:47
Originally posted by Mortaza

I have freedom to spit street but I dont do this because of respect to society. why is wiki trying to show She is free.
 
Should I spit to street to show I am free. I am freeeeeee. Hark, Puu.

You could use it to protest against the Singapore government, which bans spitting on the street.
Originally posted by Pinguin

I bet the reason is to combat idolatry. Which is the tendency of pagan religions to venerate statues, rather than abstract beings.

Exactly right.
Originally posted by Janus

Wiki wanted to show Muhammad from a muslim perspective. Are you saying those Persian artists weren't muslim?

While they were drawn by muslims they are not the muslim perspective.
Do you know anyone else who would bow down before the Wiki Muhammad?

Yes. What do you think Wahabbi's are reacting against? Its pretty rare now, but go back 2 centuries in less educated areas and you'll find it. Just as if you go to less educated areas in the catholic world you'll find people praying to Mary.
I mean muslims are allowed to look at depictions of Jesus and Moses aren't they?

Technically no.
Although when Muhammed destroyed all the idols in the Ka'aba he didn't destroy a picture of Jesus, only removed it.


I have no major issue with the wiki article - it is written from an objective non-muslim perspective, and should not be used by any serious research (just like all of wiki), but it is certainly preferrable if the images had a separate page.
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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2008 at 21:24
Why dont you find some christian depictions about Muhammed too? So we can see european arts at topic about Muhammed too. IIRC there are some  pictures which show Muhammed as satan.


Wiki wanted to show Muhammad from a muslim perspective. Are you saying those Persian artists weren't muslim?

So you would be comfortable if, under the Persian picture of Muhammad, it said "A medieval Persian depiction of Muhammad". ?


Um.....if you go to the wiki article that is exactly what they say.

But Infact, any pictures of Muhammed offend muslims. (So It would not be much different.)


Wikipedia goes on to mention that pictures of Muhammad as long as done in a respectful manner do not offend about 10% of Sunni and about 85% of Shia muslims, so not all depictions of muhammad offend all muslims.

I bet the reason is to combat idolatry. Which is the tendency of pagan religions to venerate statues, rather than abstract beings.


Exactly, now Mortaza, does seeing a painting of Muhammad cause you to worship it as an idol? Do you know anyone else who would bow down before the Wiki Muhammad? If the answer is no then I cannot see how it is forbidden to look at respectful images of muhammad, I mean muslims are allowed to look at depictions of Jesus and Moses aren't they? Are they not prophets as well?
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