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What if somebody wants to become a muslim
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What if somebody wants to become a muslim
    Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 01:56
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

es bih posted: Or just be a muslim the way it was intended to be without the shia, sunni, or any other sub-groups or codes of conduct written two centuries after the fact.
 
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it's been a very long time since i have heard it put that way...Smileand the day and the place and person, remain a cherished memory. My friend was at the time a Captain in the Tunisian Army, of Islamic faith, because of his family's political, governmental service and his subsequent carrer (he retired as a General) and their current position within the state I shall refrain from identifying his name.
 
Suffice it to say that back in 1984, he said something remarkably familiar, to that and it not only made sense; but then he went on and loaded the up the next TPT round and i shot it........ you see, we were conducting a gunnery exercise at FT. Knox, Ky.  and he was my fellow student at the United States Army Armor Officer Advance Course...and he's still my friend.
 
Glad to know that other people think so too.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 01:20
Originally posted by Neoptolemos

Originally posted by malizai_

  1. Non believers-goto eternal hell.
  2. Non-believers with no clear proofs- God tries them before hell or heaven.
  3. Believers-Bad outweigh good deeds-goto hell--punishment first--finally heaven.(mercy may still take precedence)
  4. Believers- Good outweigh bad deeds-Goto heaven.
  5. Believers-rejecting faith/associating partners/suicide/magic-Goto eternal hell."

What if somebody is a non-believer, but his good deeds outweight the bad ones?

I also have a question about "Shirk". A Christian believes in the one God, but doesn't believe in Muhammad. Does that make him "shirk"?
 
No. Belief in God is belief in God. Shirk is not believing at all, or believing in multiple gods.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 01:16
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim


I have always taught of myself as atheist anyway. Well, I suppose I will burn in hell. Why not at least enjoy the earthly pleasures while I can...

Thats a very odd sentence if you think about it. Its like accepting Islams correct while dening it.
Besides, Tangriberdi's sin is worse than yours in my opinion
 
In mine too. To tell someone what he is or is not is definetly a sin. No person has any jurisdiction over another in matters of faith. It is completely personal between the person and God.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 01:15
Originally posted by bg_turk

Originally posted by Tangriberdi

Originally posted by bg_turk

I rarely fast, never pray, eat pork from time to time and love alcohol. Can I still be considered a muslim?
If you eat pork you disobey God and his prohibition.
Out of Islam.


I have always taught of myself as atheist anyway. Well, I suppose I will burn in hell. Why not at least enjoy the earthly pleasures while I can...
 
 
Eating pork is a dieatry guideline. It's a sin to eat it because it's not healthy, and it hurts your body. However, that is a personal choice. No one can tell you that you are not muslim. Nor will you go to hell for eating pork, hell I bet you that guy "tangriberdi" had some pork unknowingly along the way.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 01:10
Originally posted by JanusRook

Another question Barbar, is there an accepted interpretation of the Quran or is it up to individuals to interpret it as they see fit, as long as it does not contradict any other parts of the Quran?

Is it improper for a layman to interpret the Quran without in depth knowledge of the book?
 
There are generally four traditional schools of thought in Sunni Islam, and various Shia ones. However, it really is up to the invididual to read the Qu'ran and interpret it to themsleves.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 01:00
Originally posted by bg_turk

I rarely fast, never pray, eat pork from time to time and love alcohol. Can I still be considered a muslim?
 
In my opinion yes. However, up to you to decide how you feel.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 00:57
Originally posted by Tangriberdi

Yes he is  a fugitive, a traitor living in the States.
I have no tolerance towards him considering mu countries' interests.
Sorry, I doubt even if he is a Muslim. One who cliams that Jesus Christ will return as a prophet for all amnkind cannot be Muslim, because he denies the fact that Mohammad is the last Prophet.
All service he is doing to Islam is comfusing Muslims and lead some people to be convinced by Christian Missionaries easier .
Please and please , again and again I strongly recommend you not to boast him.
Turkish contest and Turkish Schools. Wherefrom do the financial resources of these organization come?  He is obviously supported by some intellegince organizations.
Thats enough. We're out of topic.
This person and his followers are nothing but a crown in the eyes of real Muslim believers of Turkey.
 
 
Isa(pbuh) is the Messiah in Islam as well, and he will fight the anti-Christ. Muhammad is the last prophet, however Jesus is the one that will come back, just like in the bible as well, he is the Messiah in Islam as well.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 00:51
Originally posted by Tangriberdi

Originally posted by Tipu Sultan

tangebedri very impressive brother.i think i have met a first true muslim from turkey.do you know said al nursi a great reformer of turkey. and bulldog u r absolutely right.
  Thank God yes I am a true mumin in my opinion, but I disagree with you that Said Nursi is a geat reformer. Fettullahists are mainly followers of Nursi as they state.
And Said Nursi, a deviate Islamist, is a not noteworthy.
 
 
 
How do you know that you are a true mumin? You can know that you are a muslim/muslima. However, to say that you know that you are a mumin is rather sacreligious, since only God knows who the true down to every aspect of it followers are.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 23:25
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

all prophets had beards from prophet adam(pbuh) to moses(pbuh) and noah(pbuh) and jesus(pbuh) and prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him).
leaving beard is considered virtue in ISLAM though it is not obligatory to have a beard.

I want to know how you know that adam, musa, nuah and isa (pubt) had beards. Its not exactly written down. Maybe the bible might say something about Moses and Isa, I don't know.
Personally I think that having a beard for the sole reason that muhammed had a beard comes damn close to idoletry. This is why no paintings were allowed to be made of him.
If you have a beard because you want to have a beard, then thats perfectly fine. But its not ok to have a beard because you think it'll make you a better person.
 
I personally feel the same, I see a lot doing that because its "sunna," as in they heard the Prophet did it so they do it.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 22:58
Originally posted by Timotheus

Now, this is a very interesting thread that I am going to study very closely and compare with some similar places elsewhere that deal with Christian apologetics. Now, Omar's post has set me to wondering, is that it? Do Muslims believe in Islam solely on the basis of what the Koran says? Is the Koran infallible? Has it been passed down faithfully along the generations? How do you know it is true? How do you know Mohammed didn't make it all up? Are there discrepancies between the way Mohammed lived his life and the way he taught his followers to live?

All these are questions Christians have been asked, and I am very interested to know how Muslims deal with them.

Best regards
 
Every single copy of the Qu'ran is the same, and is equvialent to the original copies of  the Qu'ran from the Prophet's time.
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Posts: 7392 		  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 22:22
es bih posted: Or just be a muslim the way it was intended to be without the shia, sunni, or any other sub-groups or codes of conduct written two centuries after the fact.
 
----------------------------------------------------------------
 
it's been a very long time since i have heard it put that way...Smileand the day and the place and person, remain a cherished memory. My friend was at the time a Captain in the Tunisian Army, of Islamic faith, because of his family's political, governmental service and his subsequent carrer (he retired as a General) and their current position within the state I shall refrain from identifying his name.
 
Suffice it to say that back in 1984, he said something remarkably familiar, to that and it not only made sense; but then he went on and loaded the up the next TPT round and i shot it........ you see, we were conducting a gunnery exercise at FT. Knox, Ky.  and he was my fellow student at the United States Army Armor Officer Advance Course...and he's still my friend.


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 22-Feb-2007 at 22:23
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 21:51
Originally posted by The Chargemaster

In principle i think so too, because part of my friends - turks are with turkic ethnic names, and that is acceptable for the turks in principle because they are mainly muslims. But the bulgarians are mainly christians, and i am not sure is this acceptable in their case.
 
A name is a name. I have a Bulgarian friend who is muslim, and his name is Neven. My name is Elvis, and am Bosnian. People put too much emphasis on names, like some American converts I have seen who change their whole name around, it is not necessary. Any religous following you have wheter it be Islam, Christianity, Budhism, Taoism, ... should be contained in the heart, it is a personal matter, no need to advertise it through a name or anything else.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 21:23
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

I'll say this slowly so you can understand:
Quran: Highest source of Islam
Anything contradictory to Quran: unislamic
Vivek: never read Quran
Vivek: therefore knows nothing about islam
 
 
True enough. A lot of hadith, and a lot of schools of though have overdeveloped over the last 1300 years. A lot was addeded. Hence, why the collections of hadith are graded according to reliability not true or false.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 21:09
Originally posted by The Chargemaster

Well, in example, if i want to become a muslim, what kind of Islam you can recommend to me?

Shia Islam or Sunni Islam?


 
If you want a more rigid faith based on inner spirituality then suni, if you want more humility, and outward expression of faith then shia. Or just be a muslim the way it was intended to be without the shia, sunni, or any other sub-groups or codes of conduct written two centuries after the fact. I personally do not put much stock into any of the schools of thought of the Sunii tradition, nor the Shia outlook, religion is something personal and something that should be defined by the person practicing not by any other human, all humans are fallible so all human perceptions of religion have a flaw or two. I rely on the Qu'ran myself, and I guess you'd say a more "liberal" approach to religion.
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Posts: 356 		  Quote white dragon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 20:36
Originally posted by JanusRook

Here is a book, the seed of a major world religion (that is growing
quite rapidly according to Tipu Sultan) that is based completely on the
private experiences of ONE man. In the words of another, only ONE
person "allegedly" saw the angel. Only ONE person "allegedly" heard a
voice. Only ONE person "allegedly" saw the visions. So for starters,
the only way to become a Muslim, then, would be for me to take this ONE
MAN's word for it?
I was going to say something about this, but then I realized I have shared a similar stance on Mormonism. However, you must first understand not just the words of a religion but the meanings behind these words. Therefore in order to understand Islam you must understand how it's evolved over the years, and how certain verses of the Quran are interpreted.Also if people would be so kind as to not use the word "allegedly". I find it to be an insulting term that implies the speaker knows the "truth" of the matter whereas we all know thanks to this being a discussion forum everything can be questioned.
One man with some rock solid proof.
What proof of Muhammad's are you talking about? I always thought that his experiences with Gabriel were a private affair. Did anyone else experience the supernatural with Muhammad?

ok, i know that this is a little late in response, but i just started looking at this again.

mormons actually dont beileve that only one person saw all this, but that a group of people. if you look at the early parts of the book, there are some things called, in general, 'the account of the witnesses' you can sure have the same kind of opinion, but i just wanted to point out that it was more than one person who saw that knid of stuff
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 10:42
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BULLsh*t. Infact pigs are surprisingly hygenic animals. The constant rolling in the mud prevents their skin from being attacked by ectoparasites such as flees, leeches and ticks. You've never seen a pig with fleas, have you? The same ritual is performed by elefants, rhinos, hypos, because they too like the pigs have no way of taking off parasites with their limbs. If you don't believe me watch the Discovery channel.

Pigs eat their own excremete, in hot climate's their meat can easily contract many diseases. Eating Pig meat in its-self is un-healthy, it contains many harmfull fats. A Bacon fry up with a helping of Lard, Pork Sausages and fritters is not a healthy diet and can take years of your life-time and cause serious health problems in the future.




You're just disgusted from the pigs, there's no rational reason for not eating pork. All the people I've met who don't eat pork (muslims and evangelists) say it's because swine are disgusting. But none of them know that pigs are far more hygenic than cats or dogs. You've once again proven my point. Religion and ignorance go hand in hand.

No, what's wrong with Pigs? they are a creation of Allah aswell, infact if anything we protect Pigs

Well I don't eat Cat's or Dog's so I it doesn't matter.

Bulgarian, even in the most remote parts of the world which arn't in contact with the rest of the information world, they still believe in God. Monotheist belief has been around since humanity began, its something we cannot just ignore.
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 04:05
Bulgarian and all other participants, could you do me the favour of transfering this discussion to the "Prove your God's existance thread" here: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16137&PN=3

For 13 pages this thread managed to have some excellent discussions without any inter-religous disagreements I would like to try and keep it this way please. The above thread is the appropriate area for this discussion.


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 12-Nov-2006 at 04:06
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Posts: 618 		  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 04:03
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

But what's more suspicious is the concept of the entire creation of the Universe and Mankind. They're all alike. Muhhammad coppied the Bible and made some minor adjustments. He even went as far as steeling Jusus from Christianity. Couldn't he have been a little more creative? If you've read one Holy book you've read them all. How can you still believe that  the Universe is 5000 years old, that God created man out of mud and all those things now that we know that the Universe is 12 to 20 billion years old, how life began and evolved and how mankind eventually came into being.

You just shot your argument up completely. If you have ever read the Quran and the Bible you will know they are completely different books. I read the Quran first and was really surprised at how hugely different the bible is when I read (parts of) that.
 
I am yet to read the Quran, but even so there's no point in denying their tremendous similarities. They're so alike that some scholars regard Islam to be a Christian sect.
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Posts: 618 		  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 03:59
Originally posted by the_oz

Originally posted by the Bulgarian

First of all, let me ask you something. How is it that you know your religion is the right one? So many of them exist. It's a gamble whether you'll be born in a Christian, Jewish, Buddisst, etc. family. For 99% of people their parents religion determins their own. So whether you'll worship the "Right God" or not, who ever he is, is a matter of chance. Now that is plain unfairness to the good people, who were just born in the wrong families. Let's say Allah is the one true God. Then all the goodhearted Christians, Jews, etc. go to hell. Why? Nonbelievers go to hell. It's in the Kuran. It's as simple as that. And vice versa. But then why didn't Allah give them the chance to worship him, after all he is allmighty? Some would say that he did. They know about Muhhamad and are free to convert to Islam.

I will try to explain with my bad english.
My religion is the right one because God gave me this religion and i dont see any mistake in my way of believeing to God.
God sent different religions for different nations even the buddists,pagans or rastafariians can go to heaven if they are goodhearted.
 
God gave you nothing. Your father gave you this religion. Just because you don't see the apparent flaws in it doesn't make it the right religion. And you're wrong (most likely lying about non-muslims). They go straight to hell. It's the same in Christianiry. Non-baptised persons go to hell, non-baptised babies (even babies!!!) go to pergatory. What about the kamikadzees? Are they rightious people? It is said in the Kuran that you must kill infidels and that Islam will prevail in the whole world with fire and blood. A very aggressive and backwardish religion to say the least. No need to prove that.
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Posts: 618 		  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 03:47
Originally posted by Bulldog

...Pig meat can be especially dangerous, it's a very un-hygienic animal and in warm weather can easily be infected with various diseases, in addition to this diseases can spread to other life-stock quickly and cause serious problems.
 
 
BULLsh*t. Infact pigs are surprisingly hygenic animals. The constant rolling in the mud prevents their skin from being attacked by ectoparasites such as flees, leeches and ticks. You've never seen a pig with fleas, have you? The same ritual is performed by elefants, rhinos, hypos, because they too like the pigs have no way of taking off parasites with their limbs. If you don't believe me watch the Discovery channel.
 
You're just disgusted from the pigs, there's no rational reason for not eating pork. All the people I've met who don't eat pork (muslims and evangelists) say it's because swine are disgusting. But none of them know that pigs are far more hygenic than cats or dogs. You've once again proven my point. Religion and ignorance go hand in hand.


Edited by the Bulgarian - 12-Nov-2006 at 03:48
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