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Tobodai
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Topic: Why Europe? Posted: 11-Jan-2005 at 17:14 |
watch oput for Lewis though, take what he says with a grain of salt, hes kinda crazy, or is at least getting mroe crazy with time.
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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Sikander
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Posted: 11-Jan-2005 at 17:05 |
Thanks!
I think it's better to give a good theory than just to express an ill-fundamented opinion.
Bernard Lewis gives a similar explanation in his book "The East and the West - What went wrong?". I allready had that idea, about stagnation in the case of the "easterns" and the combination of poverty, curiosity and resolve in the case of the "westerners", but Lewis thoughts are much more scholarly.
And anyway, just by looking at History one can see facts, and facts don't lie.
Best
Sikander
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Tobodai
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Posted: 10-Jan-2005 at 16:18 |
I think thats a quite reasonable explanation, it fits well with the period of time before Europes rise to power and their maritime quest for all things spicy and pretty
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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Sikander
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Posted: 10-Jan-2005 at 14:42 |
This is an interesting question, with a difficult answer:
First of all, I don't think our friend Dimm has the answer. His vision of European expansion is, at least, dreadfull. The Portuguese, for instance, were not intended to "kill, rape and enslave" everyone in greater extend than, for instance, Almoravids in Iberian Peninsula, or the Ottomans, or the Japonese in Korea, or the Dutch, the French, the English. As for the Spanish, unfortunatelly, that seems to be another matter...
I think that the main causes for Europe's power were poverty, curiosity, open mindness and the resolve to go abroad.
1 - Europe was in fact very poor, specially if compared with the Chinese or the Muslims. There's allmost no gold nor silver in Europe, and our products were not competitive in the World market (rough quality and not extravagant enough). The only way to get economic power was to crate better vessels, better technologies, better weapons (cannons and muskets!) and to venture in exploration and conquest.
2 - Wille the Chinese and muslims, namely the Ottomans, closed themselves because they considered to be the best (the muslims acctually considered that, after having "islamicized" Aristotles and the Greeks authors, they had reached the apex of knowledge and civilization!), the europeans kept grabing whatever they could in terms of other peoples' knowledge and science. That allow them to surpass everybody else. The Portuguese, for instance, used the Templars (the Order of Christ), jewish and moorish knowledge, algebra, mapmaking and medicine in their explorations, and also the christian faith, to bolster their resolve to conquer and keep their new found lands.
3 - Another reason for european power was the discover of the Americas, which allowed the Portuguese, the Spanish, The Dutc, French and, mostly, the British, to explore extremely rich lands and to send emmigrants, thus avoiding overpopulation. The great amount of wealth enable them to create a better economy and army/navy.
4 - One more, and important, reason was the political change, in which feudal states gave place to modern ones, in which there's only a political power (the Portuguese, for instance, did that in 1385. Maybe that's why they were the first to go overseas and conquer Africa, the Americas and Asia...?). While the Ottomans were becoming less and less centralised, the europeans were becoming more "modern".
So, I think these are some the reasons. Each one, for it self, is not good enough. Togheter, they allowed great deeds. That conjunction happened only in Europe. And thus, History was made
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Sikander
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Tobodai
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Posted: 06-Jan-2005 at 01:05 |
only after the civilization os fully evolved as much as the natural world will allow it, yes your right. Its sad really, people always act less rationally once they reach the point they can make harmfull but 'moral' decisions.
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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Murph
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Posted: 05-Jan-2005 at 19:38 |
Originally posted by Tobodai
Also, anyone who argues the reasons power is where it is has a
cultural explanation is a fool. Aside from meaningless little
things like how you eat your food which we call culture, people around
the world are all the same, power hungry, greedy, commercial, and
militant. |
yes, but the culture can control the degree that those thigns are expressed.
post-Exploration age European culture encouraged worldwide trade and colonization
Confucian China discouraged worldwide trade
so the culture can affect the power of a civilization
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Tobodai
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Posted: 05-Jan-2005 at 17:54 |
Also remember not to treat the european sucess of the last 500 years as the definative world event, its not, and in the future people outside the western world will likley dominate again, just because something is in power now doenst mean it will be forever. Just as people living in Tang dynasty China probably assumed China would always lead the world are were wrong, so are people who say the west will keep up its lead are wrong.
Also, anyone who argues the reasons power is where it is has a cultural explanation is a fool. Aside from meaningless little things like how you eat your food which we call culture, people around the world are all the same, power hungry, greedy, commercial, and militant.
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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Guests
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Posted: 05-Jan-2005 at 15:55 |
How did europe come to dominate the entire world?
I highly recommend the book Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond in which the author attempts (with much success) to scientifically explain this question. Factors like geography, domestication of foods and animals and writing all play a part.
Edited by Connecticut Yankee
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Belisarius
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Posted: 30-Dec-2004 at 21:20 |
Well the Chinese did have oodles of guns and cannons starting from the Ming Dynasty or perhaps even a few decades before (What? Did you think the Chinese fought the British Navy by throwing rocks?).
Some one made the comment that China did not have the power to dominate the world. During the Ming Dynasty, China had the ability to field millions of soldiers. The capital alone was defended by a million men and many of them were armed with gunpowder weapons. No European nation, or even a combined ethnicity, could field more than 30,000 men armed with swords and spears at the same time. The reason why China did not conquer the world, and they did have the power to do so, was because the world could not offer them. Everything they needed and wanted was already at home.
Someone else made the comment that Europe, and the west in general, will always be superior. The second, third, and fourth highest GDPs belong to China, Japan, and India, respectively. China has a GDP second only to the United States, larger than Germany, France, and the United Kingdom combined. Wealth = power. China and India have among the largest armies in the world, and it is no longer the case that they are armed with outdated equipment. China as well as certain other Oriental nations, have some of the most modern armies in the world. The whole of Europe will be hard-pressed to even keep up with China in the immediate future.
I'm not even Chinese and I realize how the west is fading. If the United States doesn't pull itself together, it might be surpassed as well.
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Roughneck
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Posted: 30-Dec-2004 at 18:34 |
I would argue that the reason Europe pulled ahead because they found new and interesting ways to use gunpowder. The Chinese made fireworks. The Europeans made guns. Europe is also far more expansionist than most other powers. The only thing that stopped the Romans were eithger terrain (Atlantic Ocean, Sahara Desert) or people they couldn't beat (Parthians, Germans). After the Middle Ages they begane to regain confidence, began expanding again, and had the ability to go through those boundries. They had gained a technological edge.
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 30-Dec-2004 at 12:43 |
Murph has a point, though I would reduce his 500 years to merely 200.
I disagree that you can argue against him because the notion "the world" changes - if Brudobert controls his village and has no knowledge whatsoever about the rest of the world - is he then dominating the world? Antarctica matters about as much as the centre of the moon, since the places are currently unhabitable. In these matters, I believe it's quite understood that "the world" means "the world populated by men". Using this as a counterargument is semanthics, IMHO.
PS,it would be nice if xenophon2000 could provide any evidence of permanent Chinese outposts in Australia and East Africa, because I've never heard of that.
PPS, half-fantasy books as "1421:The Year..." doesn't count.
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Miller
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Posted: 25-Dec-2004 at 17:43 |
Originally posted by Murph
it is true that there were periods where Asia was more powerful than Europe. However, they did not dominate
the world. there power was excercised in their relative sphere of
influences, which were sometimes rather large, but never close to a
globabl scale. for the 500 or so years that Europe has been
powerful, in has dominated the world. other
powers, such as India and China, have recently begun to emerge.
it seems, however, that Europe (and America) has implanted itself so
firmly into the global arena that, while other countries may increase
their power, Europe will never completely removed from this position of
dominance. we have never seen anything similar to this so you
cannot compare this to the "continual cycles of civilizations", no one
has firmly established themselves in the position that Europe elevated
itself to.
alright you're now free to critique and rip apart my statements |
Ok, Since you already think that you had a weak argument I will
try to help you negate that. The concept
what the world means has changed throughout
the ages. You could easily argue that ancient and classical middle
easterners did dominate the world, but their world did not include
Europe. Someday the world may mean other planets and people
could argue that Europeans did not dominate
the world in the 500 years you are referring
to.
Going back to the original question. It
is much easier to analyze the come about of the original
civilizations, when few people around the
rivers moved from hunter-gatherer life to agriculture
based society that helped them settle down
in cities and freed up some people to do other kind of works not
directly related to survival. Such as, priests and scientists.
However, It is much more complex to analyze why the center of
civilizations has been in constant move. There are as many theories
as there are civilizations, and I think some of
them actually maybe right
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Guests
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Posted: 25-Dec-2004 at 15:15 |
Originally posted by Murph
it is true that there were periods where Asia was more powerful than Europe. However, they did not dominate the world. there power was excercised in their relative sphere of influences, which were sometimes rather large, but never close to a globabl scale. for the 500 or so years that Europe has been powerful, in has dominated the world. other powers, such as India and China, have recently begun to emerge. it seems, however, that Europe (and America) has implanted itself so firmly into the global arena that, while other countries may increase their power, Europe will never completely removed from this position of dominance. we have never seen anything similar to this so you cannot compare this to the "continual cycles of civilizations", no one has firmly established themselves in the position that Europe elevated itself to.
alright you're now free to critique and rip apart my statements
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"for the 500 or so years that Europe has been powerful, in has dominated the world."
The mongol empire at their height controlled everything from Korea to Germany. Is that not world-wide dominance? Or China during the Ming dynasty where it's fleet patrolled and maintained outposts from Australia to East Africa? When you speak of world-wide dominance, you have to realize that the civilizations of antiquity didn't have a full map of the earth as we have now. Given their knowledge of the "known" world, many great civilizations have dominated the world. In fact, the Earth was only fully mapped by the early 20th century. A complete map of the world excluding antarctica was only obtained by the mid 19th century. Prior to that time, nations only had incomplete maps of the world. The Europeans dominated the world in the last 2 centuries(not 500 years), because, the technology need to explore, map, and colonize the inhospitable regions of the world only became available after the industrial revolution had occured. And Europe just happend to launch the industrial revolution.
"Europe will never completely removed from this position of dominance."
Let's suppose for a moment that for the next 500 years, Europeans maintain their demographic hold on the Americas and Austrialia, what could possibly happen? Well, for one thing, the worlds of this solar system would well be colonized by man. And if the civilizations of this colonization front just happens to be non-european cultures, what then happens to European dominance? Will European cultures grow stagnant and backwards? It could very well happen, it has certainly happend in the past(Dark ages). History is cyclical, the same stories repeat themselves with different actors and props.
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azimuth
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Posted: 24-Dec-2004 at 22:08 |
Originally posted by Murph
it is true that there were periods where Asia was more powerful than Europe. However, they did not dominate the world. there power was excercised in their relative sphere of influences, which were sometimes rather large, but never close to a globabl scale. for the 500 or so years that Europe has been powerful, in has dominated the world. other powers, such as India and China, have recently begun to emerge. it seems, however, that Europe (and America) has implanted itself so firmly into the global arena that, while other countries may increase their power, Europe will never completely removed from this position of dominance. we have never seen anything similar to this so you cannot compare this to the "continual cycles of civilizations", no one has firmly established themselves in the position that Europe elevated itself to.
alright you're now free to critique and rip apart my statements
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History repeats it self
But off course not exactly with the same peope or the same locations or the same strength (there is always something different)
it just change
iam not adding anything new here
Many empires and kingdoms were considered impossible to break or become weak when they were at their height and glory
but they did break and someone els took their position
it just a matter of time
Edited by azimuth
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Murph
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Posted: 24-Dec-2004 at 17:10 |
it is true that there were periods where Asia was more powerful than Europe. However, they did not dominate the world. there power was excercised in their relative sphere of influences, which were sometimes rather large, but never close to a globabl scale. for the 500 or so years that Europe has been powerful, in has dominated the world. other powers, such as India and China, have recently begun to emerge. it seems, however, that Europe (and America) has implanted itself so firmly into the global arena that, while other countries may increase their power, Europe will never completely removed from this position of dominance. we have never seen anything similar to this so you cannot compare this to the "continual cycles of civilizations", no one has firmly established themselves in the position that Europe elevated itself to.
alright you're now free to critique and rip apart my statements
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azimuth
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Posted: 24-Dec-2004 at 12:14 |
Originally posted by Christscrusader
Originally posted by azimuth
and roman work" was pure greek or roman
they took it from the older Egypt and the persians |
Hrm, i didnt realize DEMOCRACY was borrowed from the Egyptians and Persians. I didn't realize ideas such as the earth was flat came from Egypt or Persia either. Call me crazy tho.
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i dont know if what you mentioned is Greek 100% or not, i wont argue that
i just wanted to say everybody took or borrowed something from each other and some developed it and some took it as it is. Egypitans are much older than greek and they were advanced in their life style.
GREEK Borrowed from others Too
arabs took and transilated the Greek work and developed it and made it more global ( arabs are the one who took the Greek knowledge to Europe)
it wasnt REcopy.
any way there is much more than "great mosques and rewrite Greek work" and arabs borrowed alot from NONE Greek and developed it
and alot of inventions are pure arabic
and that is FACT
whatever you say wont change the FACTs
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Anujkhamar
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Posted: 24-Dec-2004 at 04:44 |
Originally posted by Christscrusader
Originally posted by azimuth
and roman work" was pure greek or roman
they took it from the older Egypt and the persians |
Hrm, i didnt realize DEMOCRACY was borrowed from the Egyptians and
Persians. I didn't realize ideas such as the earth was flat came from
Egypt or Persia either. Call me crazy tho. |
is it a good thing to believe the earth is flat???
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Christscrusader
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Posted: 24-Dec-2004 at 00:28 |
Originally posted by azimuth
and roman work" was pure greek or roman
they took it from the older Egypt and the persians |
Hrm, i didnt realize DEMOCRACY was borrowed from the Egyptians and Persians. I didn't realize ideas such as the earth was round came from Egypt or Persia either. Call me crazy tho.
Edited by Christscrusader
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Heaven helps those, who help themselves.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 23-Dec-2004 at 18:22 |
Originally posted by vagabond
Reminder to all - this topic has the possibility for some intelligent, introspective examination of historic cultural comparison. It also has the possibility to sink rapidly into a flame war as so many others have. Trolling and/or inflammatory comments (one liners intended only to elicit an angry response), insults and denigration of individuals or groups will not be tolerated. This is a forum for the discussion of history, not a place for you to indulge in your personal prejudices. Individuals posting inflamatory or offensive material will be addressed by the moderators.
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Thanks for that. It is an interesting topic but not one I can contribute to without rather more thinking about it.
Generally though I agreed with the rest of your post. However it was concerned with why various cultures flourish from time to time, and it didn't really get to the specific factors that triggered the age of European expansion and dominance.
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vagabond
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Posted: 23-Dec-2004 at 15:11 |
Reminder to all - this topic has the possibility for some intelligent, introspective examination of historic cultural comparison. It also has the possibility to sink rapidly into a flame war as so many others have. Trolling and/or inflammatory comments (one liners intended only to elicit an angry response), insults and denigration of individuals or groups will not be tolerated. This is a forum for the discussion of history, not a place for you to indulge in your personal prejudices. Individuals posting inflamatory or offensive material will be addressed by the moderators.
To the topic: All cultures go through periods of openness and periods of isolation. Cultures that remain isolationist or inward looking for too long tend to begin to stagnate economically, politically and intellectually. Once a culture reaches the stage of development that it thinks that no one else has anything to offer it (as mentioned above), the danger of stagnation and the asscociated eventual decline is there. Openness tends to lead to cultural interaction and communication between cultures, which often enriches all parties. Outward looking cultures, those seeking new ideas and welcoming change will often find a sudden flowering of intellectual activity, as was the case during the Rennaissance in Europe. Of course not all of Europe welcomed these new ideas all of the time, but enough ideas were brought in that the culture made some extraordinary leaps in the progression of ideas.
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In the time of your life, live - so that in that wonderous time you shall not add to the misery and sorrow of the world, but shall smile to the infinite delight and mystery of it. (Saroyan)
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