More- should Turkey join the EU???

Sultan

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Topic: More- should Turkey join the EU???
Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 09:48

Ok, all the best with your military service then! If one has this 7000, it's a good deal to pay the military service off and get14 months of his life back in exchange..

I hope this doesn't mean that you won't be able to re-enter Turkey until you turn 36!

The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin

DayI

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Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 09:24

Originally posted by Yiannis

Originally posted by DayI

But who pays i think 7 000 � (?) serves only a month.

Sorry, I didn't get that part. You mean that some people only serve for 1 month in the army?

yea if they pay circa 7000 � (dunno exact how much) only serve one month (21 days to be exactly). And they are in a secure place (burdur).

ps; now they asking me to serve for military, in this situation if i enter Turkey i must serve 15 months But ill must go to Antwerp consultation to avoid that till my 36'th year and then ill serve one month.

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Yiannis

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Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 09:03

Originally posted by DayI

But who pays i think 7 000 � (?) serves only a month.

Sorry, I didn't get that part. You mean that some people only serve for 1 month in the army?

The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin

DayI

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Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 08:22

thats a plus point to greeks from me, in Turkey they send you to midlle of a battle, where people speak kurdish, where communication is impossible and where you risc youre own life

That's simply nightmare of any Turkish guy. But who pays i think 7 000 � (?) serves only a month.

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Yiannis

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Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 03:48

Originally posted by Leonidas

I havent served, partly coz i dont have to, more so becuase my greek is shocking and i expect to suffer terribly becuase of that. But rhodes is my station and what a place to be conscripted!!!

Greeks who reside abroad, only serve 6 months in the army, that means that practically they finish before they even notice it. When I was serving, we had a canadian guy called Angelo. He didn't speak ANY Greek! Officers would call orders and stuff, Anglelo would simply go on his way neglecting them totally, dragging his rigle to the ground. Once he was on sentry duty at the front gate, he refused to let the major in because he didn't understand what he was saying! They stopped putting him on sentry duty after that. In any case, to cut a long story short, I have met Angelo in Athens, a few months after we're dismmised and found out that he could speak Greek better than me .

Originally posted by kotumeyil

You are from Samos and you served to military in Samos? Lucky guy!

Oh, don't get me wrong, nobody was doing me any favor! It's standard process in the army, if you come from a border area, then you serve in the area that you come from...

The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin

Leonidas

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Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 03:27

Yannis wrote:
"From my part, when I was serving my military duty in Samos, I can assure our Turkish friends that I never saw any landing vessels full with armed to the teeth, blood-thirsty soldiers, ready to put to sea towards Kusadasi. Only ships full of Greek and foreign tourists

"

I havent served, partly coz i dont have to, more so becuase my greek is shocking and i expect to suffer terribly becuase of that. But rhodes is my station and what a place to be conscripted!!!

.

Edited by Leonidas

kotumeyil

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Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 17:30

At least three conditions are required for a Turkish family to migrate to Europe:

1. Job opportunities

2. Social state expenses

3. Low costs of living

Unless these conditions are povided, an averadge Turkish family doesn't dare to migrate because though it might change adversely, Turkey is much cheaper than Europe and in Turkey there's a strong solidarity between relatives. If someone looses his/her job or undergoes a difficult situation he/she is both economically and morally supported by his/her relatives. In Europe, because of neo-liberalism, welfare expenditures are decreasing so I think migration to Europe will not be much attractive (except the very beginning)...

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eaglecap

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Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 16:49

Could entry into the EU lead to another mass migration into Europe similar to what happened after the Battle of Manzikert in 1071 AD?
I would not blame a poor Turkish family for migrating to were there are more opportunities.

If this does happen how much would this alter or impact existing European cultures?

At one time the coptic Christians were the majority so I wonder what Europe would be like in a hundred years if they are allowed entry into EU?????

Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε

kotumeyil

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Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 16:41

Originally posted by Yiannis

From my part, when I was serving my military duty in Samos.....

You are from Samos and you served to military in Samos? Lucky guy!

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Yiannis

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Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 08:47

Originally posted by Leonidas

They're armed, and defensive in proportion to the turkish forces, not more not less. Unless you think that islands can move like navy ships (or if you want to attack them), what do you care if it has defensive weapons or not. What is the problem? you have no issue in stating turkey's right for self defence

. so that concept shouldnt be hard to understand.

From my part, when I was serving my military duty in Samos, I can assure our Turkish friends that I never saw any landing vessels full with armed to the teeth, blood-thirsty soldiers, ready to put to sea towards Kusadasi. Only ships full of Greek and foreign tourists

The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin

Leonidas

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Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 07:36

"So why should we give half of aegean to you?"
your not giving anything so stop think in those terms if that makes it easier for you. Greece gets to manage more of the aegean and you get an extra 1%. BTW Greece gets 64% to manage not 80%.

Its a perceived threat nothing more, in reality greece cannot block or confine turkish vessels. It makes it hard for you military but a mutual disarming of that area can solve that quikly aswell. BUt i dont think Ozkok will be happy about that.

"in reality they (greece)would not actually be confined nor blocked because of the right of innocent passage, but Turkey feels that Greece would be able to control them and impose guidelines and restrictions to such degrees as to take away the freedom of movement"pg 20

The whole thing is more on emotions and perceptions. Turkey could easily be accomidated bilatarlly within that frame work but there needs some good will first. So i dont see how turkey is benefiting from a expensive and dangarous stalemate becuase it feels threatened.
Im sure Greece can put in some aggrements that can be legally binding and address you concerns, if it actaully resolves this.

"By the way, Casus Belli was not problem for us, It is problem for you."
Well if you want to be a part of the EU its your problem.

You cant see the cost of the ill feeling that threat brings. The greek govn sounds pissed off latley, and 1 year ago was holding its hand out even not goin against the dodgy UN peace plan in cyprus, and now it get this slap in the face.

RAND's third party point of view
"First, most of the changes have come on the Greek side. Without some reciprocal gestures on Turkey�s part, it may prove difficult to maintain domestic support in Greece for the rapprochement over the long run."pg17

"Two steps in particular on Turkey�s part could help to give Greek-Turkish relations new momentum.The first would be for Turkey to rescind the parliamentary resolution saying that the extension of Greek territorial waters would be tantamount to a casus belli. This resolution has particularly vexed Greek public opinion because Greece has the right under international law to extend its territorial waters to 12 miles but has chosen for political reasons not to do so. A second gesture would be to reopen the theological seminary on the island of Halki which was closed in the early1970s.

Both moves would give Greek-Turkish d�tente new momentum and be an important sign of Turkey�s commitment to further improving relations with Greece. They would also make it easier domestically for the Greek leadership to justify its d�tente policy and take additional steps to strengthen it. Indeed, without some reciprocal gestures
on Turkey�s part, public support for Greek-Turkish d�tente maybe hard to sustain in Greece over the long run." pg22/23

Goodluck if you think the isolationist/nationalist, stuck in the 50's, path is the right thing.

"So even your own country accept they armed their island. No need to playing world"
They're armed, and defensive in proportion to the turkish forces, not more not less. Unless you think that islands can move like navy ships (or if you want to attack them), what do you care if it has defensive weapons or not. What is the problem? you have no issue in stating turkey's right for self defence

. so that concept shouldnt be hard to understand.

Phallanx

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Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 07:02

Well, no you didn't sign it but conveniently use the law as mentioned in both your Mediterrainian and Black Sea borders..

Your problem is as in the Cyprus discussion we had, is you consider that the Aegean belongs to Turkey.. The Aegean doesn't and can not belong to anyone which is exactly what the laws clearly imply. But if we should give the title to someone that would have to be to the inhabbitants of the Aegean islands and not to someone in S.Africa..

Like it or not, anyone can enter your 12 mile borders in the Black and Mediterrainian seas without asking you as long as they abide by the clauses mentioned before.

For example, human trafficing in the form of illegal immigrants is a norm in the Aegean, just a week ago, 150 Indian immigrants attempting to reach Italy, almost drowned just 2 miles off the shores of Crete.
While they had been seen, identified and closely watched, our navy and coast guard couldn't do anything, SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY ABIDE BY ALL THE CLAUSES OF THE LAW..

You mention courts and ask if we have accepted, I suggest you read my previous post cause you probably missed it. Not only do we accept it, but we have actually taken the issue to court, a court you (Turkey) in all three (if not more) occasions, argued, that it allegedly had no juristiction..

Casus Belli, is your problem and not only your problem but actually the ENTIRE EU should have been on it's feet after this announcement.
Since when is a country, any country that wants to become part of any organisation allowed to threaten with war another country, already a member of that organisation ???

I for one, am actually quite disappointed that this issue hasn't annoyed some of the other members in this fora and have let this be yet another Hellinic-Turkish discussion/argument, when in reality such issues ARE OF INTERNATIONAL INTEREST.

As for the rest, firstly I have no idea where 'Gok�e Ada' is, second I fail to understand your way of thinking.
You, yourself say that the embassy mentions nothing about the islands having a naval base, yet, you jump to the conclussion that they accept arming the island. How does that work ???

Plans are plans, how the island will be destroyed, if there is such a plan since I personally find it rediculous and impossible. I have seen plans and have taken part in various exercises none of them, not even one mention destruction of any part of land, well not Hellinic land that is.

Anyway, for the hell of it, lets say the plan wants it destroyed, that doesn't prove it has a sufficient amount of troops on it, there are a number of ways to do what you claim from a distance.

Edited by Phallanx

To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.

Mortaza

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Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 15:55

did we signed LOS or not? If we didnt It dont bind us. I dont care how many million of country signed it. Lets say 130 country say, lets give half of Turkey to greece, do you think we will accept this, or do you think, our refusal become illegal?? So why should we give half of aegean to you?

And for court thing, As I said, Erdogan said, lets solve all of our problem at court. did greece accept this?

By the way, Casus Belli was not problem for us, It is problem for you. If you try to take 80% of aegean, than you should think about it again because of Casus belli.

If you dont want to take 80% of agean well, np. Dont interest casus belli much. So It is you decision to expand or not.

So unless you can prove naval base, fortifications and an ammount of soldiers that surpass the normal contigent your claims are baseless..

If you read greek embassy, they dont say we have not naval base or something like this. So even your own country accept they armed their island. No need to playing world. I made my army duty at Gok�e Ada, and acording to militaristic plans, greece have power to destroy that island at 5 minute. I am sure this cannot do with only small soldiers.

why are you refusing, what your goverment accept?

Phallanx

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Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 12:19

As Leonidas so correctly mentioned, how can you make claims on articles of a law you never did sign yet conveniently do use ??

Besides what does article 15 say ?

That :
The above provision does not apply, however, where it is necessary by reason of historic title or other special circumstances to delimit the territorial seas of the two States in a way which is at variance therewith.

So our lack of ability to come to an agreement can not affect the application of the LOS simply due to historic title which I'm sure no one will deny, but what about article 300 ?

States Parties shall fulfil in good faith the obligations assumed under this Convention and shall exercise the rights, jurisdiction and freedoms recognized in this Convention in a manner which would not constitute an abuse of right

But how can we speak of abuse when our internationally recognized rights can not be applied in this situation.

Mortaza

So according to you trying to enforce a law that over 130 countries have also applied EVEN TURKEY is expansionism..
Then Turkey is one of those countries that expand, right ? so is the US, France, Zimbambue and Tazmania...
Since when is trying to use a law called expansionism and why does this 'expansionism' only apply to Hellas THAT ISN'T ALLOWED BY THREAT OF WAR to use the law, yet is not applied to Turkey that has been using it since 1964 ???

You mention arming islands, do you honestly know what we signed in the Lausanne treaty and exactly what it says ???

According to the treaty the islands of Lemnos, Samothrace, Mytilene, Chios, Samos and Nikaria shall NOT:

(I) No naval base and no fortification will be established in the said islands.

(2) Greek military aircraft will be forbidden to fly over the territory of the Anatolian coast. Reciprocally, the Turkish Government will forbid their military aircraft to fly over the said islands.

(Which doesn't really happen otherwise there would be NO dogfights)

(3) The Greek military forces in the said islands will be limited to the normal contingent called up for military service, which can be trained on the spot, as well as to a force of gendarmerie and police in proportion to the force of gendarmerie and police existing in the whole of the Greek territory.

So unless you can prove naval base, fortifications and an ammount of soldiers that surpass the normal contigent your claims are baseless..

Ahh, but dear Mortaza, your country DOES NOT accept courts, you prefer claims of Casus Belli, you see there have been several attempts but Turkey has always claimed that the court doesn't have juristiction over this issue, as seen in 78', 83, 89'.. Even today while we say 'let the courts settle it' you say a court has no right to... So you see, you prefer to play 'bully' than really bring the problem to it's solution..

As for Cyprus and the 1920' that's a different topic, but we have made it a habbit of discussing everything in the same topic...

Finally, it wasn't so long ago (during Moliviatis visit) that the speaker of the Turkish National Assembly Bulent Arinc openly proposed to lift the Casus Belli and A.Gull had said that IT IS PART OF TURKEY'S POLICY...

WHY the sudden turn now, why allow the military goons of the "Turkish National Staff" run your country, wasn't it expansionism then (just 5 month ago), what lead to yet another, change in the face of Turkey's policy in the issue ???

Probably this statement was just smoke in the eyes of the EU due to the membership talks..

To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.

Mortaza

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Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 08:19

threat is unfreindly and aggressive, to most people. These threats have not been returned either. If some one threatens me my first reaction is to prepare for the worse since i wouldnt give an inch either.. you know something called honour.

Sure, but what can Turkey do? Sorry but greece didnt said let discuss this, She said I am expanding my borders. what should Turkey do?

Actually the rights greece has, are not something greece fought for. She just has them, they was just more reconised by international treaties as times move on. So it isnt expansion they way your saying.
Its all about perception Mortaza.

Complately agree, but aegean is not a standart sea. I am sure Turkey will not interested with greeece expanding their borders to mediterrian or to italy.

The staus quo denies greece her legal right. Turkey is trying to protect its political will over the aegean , while avoiding international protocol

Did we accept this protocol? I mean, because you make some agreement with others, why should we give some of our rights?

With lawyers and treaties not guns; greece doesnt need guns/threats to argue its case

Realy? So why are you wasting more money to gun ? You should waste your money to lawyer. And pls dont tell me, It was because of Turkey. Turkey will not attack you.

They were armed after the establishment of the 4th aegean army which has the largest non-ocean going landing force in the world and 100, 000 troops

so? We are using only our right(like you are using). It is not against any international agreement but arming island is against.So maybe this using right thing is a little tricky?

Well lets forget them for the sake of the thread, there are no good guys mortaza, and im not goin to compare injustices that go back centuries.
You cannot bring the past up if you want to move into the future, nor would they help you in a court of law

You understood me wrong, I dont say we should interest with past, I am just trying to show, we did not made any war after building Turkey. You cannot say, a country who did nothing but interested hersef last 80 year, is an aggresive and expansionist country. Our borders didnt changed, and we didnt try to change it.

I dont think accusing Turkey is fair.

Leonidas

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Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 08:00

Mortaza wrote:
"You can call it agressive, and I can call it defensive. Sure there are some conflict, but this does not mean It is turkey nonfriendly."
A threat is unfreindly and aggressive, to most people. These threats have not been returned either. If some one threatens me my first reaction is to prepare for the worse since i wouldnt give an inch either.. you know something called honour.

"Acording to Turkey, we are trying to stop greece expansion.We are trying to protect status qua."
Actually the rights greece has, are not something greece fought for. She just has them, they was just more reconised by international treaties as times move on. So it isnt expansion they way your saying.
Its all about perception Mortaza.

Protecting the status quo? This wasnt an issue for turkey until the 70's, It started around the cyprus conflict and the discovery of the mineral/oil in the aegean. Tukey didnt care until
1 it realised greece can claim alot of the aegean and
2 that it mite be worth something.

The staus quo denies greece her legal right. Turkey is trying to protect its political will over the aegean , while avoiding international protocol

" It was greece who is trying to expand her borders with this gun. "
With lawyers and treaties not guns; greece doesnt need guns/threats to argue its case

"So why dont your country go to court for arming islands? It looks like greece is complately selective for which problem should go court"

Take them to court, thats what I want. Greece can go to court on all issues and win. It just cannot go to court on all issues at the same time and as one issue that is my point.

They are seperate and are covered by differnt rules. Aegean military units for instance are not covered by the laws/treaties that govern the continenetal shelf. So even if they are related they are judged seperatly, trying to combine them is a tactic , so to trade them amongst themselves and politise the issues.

As for those "armed" islands. They were armed after the establishment of the 4th aegean army which has the largest non-ocean going landing force in the world and 100, 000 troops. Thats a big gun and curious that its considered defensive by turkey.

"Well lets remember wars between greece and turkey."
Well lets forget them for the sake of the thread, there are no good guys mortaza, and im not goin to compare injustices that go back centuries.

You cannot bring the past up if you want to move into the future, nor would they help you in a court of law

Kapikulu

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Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 07:02

If it gets expanded to 12 miles, Aegean sea becomes like a Greek national sea and the international waters' area gets limited, so it is so natural that it is against the Turkish benefits there.

It is so pointless that Greece says Turkey isn't right to accept that.Any nation wouldn't accept such a proposal that would give Aegean See such a partition

We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

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