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December 26th: End of the Soviet Union
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ulrich von hutten View Drop Down
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Posts: 3638 		  Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: December 26th: End of the Soviet Union
    Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 18:10
that's typical. the workingclass has to work hard to earn it's living ,while the leadership spend some nice days with skiing . this would't have happend in socialism.

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Komnenos View Drop Down
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Posts: 4361 		  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 17:03
Originally posted by Mosquito

Im leaving for ski so you guys can continue your talk about how cool USSR was without being interrupted by such bloody reactionist like me. Good luck.




Have fun!
If you still are a member of AE when you return after your well deserved holiday, is currently being discussed by AE's hardline Stalinist leadership.
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Posts: 2537 		  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 16:46

Im leaving for ski so you guys can continue your talk about how cool USSR was without being interrupted by such bloody reactionist like me. Good luck.
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Posts: 1355 		  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 18:25

you said gulags are not part of socialist ideology, of course they are not, but how are they supposed to be part of capitalist ideology?

I don't know? This is not my claim. My point is that some people are speaking as if labour camps were part of Leninist ideology because Stalin had gulags. But they ignore the fact all such camps predated Leninists. 

Gulags and death camps are ideologically unaffiliated, every oppressive government uses them as they want to.

Yes.

Again false statement. Gulag system was instroduced by soviets. This what was in times of tsars cannot be even compared to soviet gulag system. Im the last person who would defend russian tsars but it is fact.

Yes, the labour camps in Siberia were called something else at the time...
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Posts: 2537 		  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 17:22

Besides, the Gulag system was already in place during Tsars' time in Russia, and we see it in many Capitalist countries in history. Penal colonies, work camps, concentration camps, and extermination camps are all Capitalist or pre-Capitalist 'innovations'.

Again false statement. Gulag system was instroduced by soviets. This what was in times of tsars cannot be even compared to soviet gulag system. Im the last person who would defend russian tsars but it is fact.
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 14:01
you said gulags are not part of socialist ideology, of course they are not, but how are they supposed to be part of capitalist ideology? gulags and death camps are ideologically unaffiliated, every oppressive government uses them as they want to.
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Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 06:32
The right of employment is a human right.Capitalism cannot function without depriving this fundamental right.
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Maju View Drop Down
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 06:27
Of course, you are right Beylerbeyi, but I couldn't help it, considering the tone of the discussion. 

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Posts: 1355 		  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 05:42

But Capitalists are so hypocritical that they just shrug, say it's the victim's fault, talk about "natural selection" (forgetting about the social nature of the human species) or "divine design" (forgetting about the commandements about love and compassion), and look elsewhere.

Gulags are worse than widespread misery? Maybe but maybe not. Ideally none of the two should exist.

You make it sound like 'Socialist Gulag vs Capitalist barbarism'. In reality Gulags are not implicit in a Socialist system, there were many Socialist countries without such camps, and USSR had no Gulags after Stalin. Besides, the Gulag system was already in place during Tsars' time in Russia, and we see it in many Capitalist countries in history. Penal colonies, work camps, concentration camps, and extermination camps are all Capitalist or pre-Capitalist 'innovations'.
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Maju View Drop Down
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 20:30
Well said, Subotai: if for anything Socialism is admired is precisely for preventing succesfully the abjection of misery. We can talk all we want about gulags and so on, but there are other many million ways you can kill (and torture) a person, as Brecht said.

But Capitalists are so hypocritical that they just shrug, say it's the victim's fault, talk about "natural selection" (forgetting about the social nature of the human species) or "divine design" (forgetting about the commandements about love and compassion), and look elsewhere.

Gulags are worse than widespread misery? Maybe but maybe not. Ideally none of the two should exist.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Posts: 542 		  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 17:02

You are judging people who done something in some situation while dont think what will happen if someone else is on thier place.how they will maneged to rule the country, how will they threat the peple........

And today much people are suffering(living in the streets and sleeping in muddy pits,tring to get a scrab of money so that they can feed their children while so called busnesmans are stockpiling riches) aswell
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Posts: 2537 		  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 16:45

Doesnt matter if you are dissapointed or not. Judging after your posts it is obvious. You can ignore all the facts, all the blood and suffering of millions of people. Everything is ok as long as you eat well and got job.

On the other hand i shouldnt have been surprised. Commies have never showned any honor in any case.
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Posts: 542 		  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 16:36

huh, waited 20 min for reply and this is all you can think of.

I'm very disapointed really
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Mosquito View Drop Down
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Posts: 2537 		  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 16:32
You are natural born slave. Your master just have to give you food, cloth and place to live and you are happy. The word "Honor" belongs to categorry of this words which you know only from dictionary.
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Isbul View Drop Down
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Posts: 542 		  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 16:11

Firstly i said almost all.

All these riots cause a bit destabilization only for a year and after that all is back to normal.And they didnt have any effects on the way of live of the majority of the population even that they, for a year or less, caused some thouble

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Mosquito View Drop Down
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Posts: 2537 		  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 16:00

1956 - Hungary invaded by Soviet Union

1956 - Poznan (my city) in Poland - rebelion

1968 - Czechoslovakia invaded by Warsaw Pact (and also riots in Poland)

1978- protests of workers in Poland - (ended in bloodbath)

1981 -1982 martial law in Poland

And you say there were no repressions, live was quiet, damn workers paradise
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Isbul View Drop Down
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Posts: 542 		  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 15:53
I'll consider that i didnt read that question.
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Mosquito View Drop Down
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Posts: 2537 		  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 15:30

Actaly during 50s, 60s,70s,80s in almost all estern block coutries it was very peacful(very little crime).The live was quiet.Tou have where to live, not to worry that you will be levt on the street jobless, you have enogh money to bye everything you need but nothing fancy.

Oh and forgot to add(cuz cant edit).There wre no represions durring these years.

Did you born stupid or it came with time?
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Isbul View Drop Down
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Posts: 542 		  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 11:46

True the payement was little but it was more then enough to feed your family,to pay taxes and bye something extra, but not enough to bye a tv.But because of that people were stockpiling their money in so called "Jar bank" and then in the late70s and 80s ,when everybody has the money,there was a rush to bye these things and eventualythe production cant met the demand of the population
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TheDiplomat View Drop Down
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Posts: 1988 		  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 11:38

It is an important feeling for a man not to fear for losing his job.I agree..Thats what I like aout the soviet union.very few unemployed people.

but what about this remark uttered by a worker in order to describe the system of the soviet union?

''They pretented to pay us,and we pretented to work.''
ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!

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