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"Slavic settlements in the Balkans"
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HEROI View Drop Down
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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "Slavic settlements in the Balkans"
    Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 13:35


You still to this day have people in greece which speak albanain.The old Arvanites.


Second, Arvanites are descendants of Albanians that moved to Greece very long ago, mixed with locals and considered themselves Greeks. Today, only some elderly speak Arvanitan (which obviously comes from Albanian but evolved differently) since tv has erased all local dialects including Tsakonian, Pontian etc.
 
Arvanites today identify themselves as Greeks and are proud to be Greeks.I am not Doubting that.They ceirtanly are a pillar of the Greek nation.They fought for Greece and its ideals.
But even today their language its not Different from Albanian,it might have it regional dialect but is perfectly understandable,specially for southerness like myself.


[/QUOTE]


Edited by HEROI - 25-Jun-2008 at 13:37
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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 13:29
Originally posted by Vorian

I know that my family has origines from where river Vjosa starts in Greece,and i know that they came from there about 3 or 4 hundred years ago.Always albanian speakers.
 


First of all, without wanting to sound bad, how do you know this? Cause I lose track of my family tree after the fourth generation back.
 
I lose track of my family tree after that time to.But my grandfather told me that his grandfather had told him thats where we come from originaly.He did not mentioned names of the place,but in Albania we come from a village on river Vjosa (sorry i dont know how you call it in Greek) and my predecesors have left with thier decendants only the fact that we originate from where the river starts in Greece.For sme reasons they apear to have imigrated from thereto this place in Albania.




Third, the Greeks of Epirus and the Albanians were mostly sepherds meaning they traveled from mountain to mountain finding good places for their sheep and goats. So, it's natural that you will find Albanians near Ioannina, there were not barbwires in the borders to stop people. That doesn't make the area Albanian though as finding Greeks up in northern Albania didn't make it Greek.
 
Albanians in Ioannina were a majority,thats the difference,thats what history tell us,that what all the acounts of the time tell us.

Byron,Disraeli,Miss Durham and many others called it the capital of Albania.
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Posts: 566 		  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 13:09
I know that my family has origines from where river Vjosa starts in Greece,and i know that they came from there about 3 or 4 hundred years ago.Always albanian speakers.
 


First of all, without wanting to sound bad, how do you know this? Cause I lose track of my family tree after the fourth generation back.

You still to this day have people in greece which speak albanain.The old Arvanites.


Second, Arvanites are descendants of Albanians that moved to Greece very long ago, mixed with locals and considered themselves Greeks. Today, only some elderly speak Arvanitan (which obviously comes from Albanian but evolved differently) since tv has erased all local dialects including Tsakonian, Pontian etc.

Third, the Greeks of Epirus and the Albanians were mostly sepherds meaning they traveled from mountain to mountain finding good places for their sheep and goats. So, it's natural that you will find Albanians near Ioannina, there were not barbwires in the borders to stop people. That doesn't make the area Albanian though as finding Greeks up in northern Albania didn't make it Greek.
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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 12:56

There is Greek-speakers in southern Albnaia today ,is no denyin.Part of my family are Greek-speakers from NARTA in Vlora,today they live in TRIKALLA in Greece,were they have met many old greek people who still speak Albanian as well.

For many centuries this region has belonged to Albanian-Greek speakers,which by the way have always lived peacefully together untill the creation of the Greek state.The origines of which one was there first none is able to say with certainty.But the fact that they have lived together in this region for so many centuries tells us that it belongs to both of this people,which by the way are the same people.
 
As you mentioned above South of that region now is within the administrative borders of GREECE and the north within the administrative borders of Albania.
 
And thats it.It really should be it.
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Posts: 2329 		  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 12:42
Ok Flipper, you reply. I'm too bored to repeat previous posts and quotes...
 
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My view is that Epirus is a geographical area that has been inhabited by different people, majority being Greek and Albanians. Today Epirus is split, with the shouthern  part in Greece populated by Greeks and the Northern part belogs to Albania and a small Greek minority lives there as well.
 
 
 
 
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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2008 at 11:38

Flipper,i am epirotas (in the contex you know them,even though i call myself albanian,not epirotas)

I know that my family has origines from where river Vjosa starts in Greece,and i know that they came from there about 3 or 4 hundred years ago.Always albanian speakers.
 
As i have consumed this topic before i have told you and given you countless of examples where  land as far as Janina where called Albania.
Every coin and document of Skanderbeg,clearly depicts him as king of Albania and Macedonia,and sometimes Epiros,,Albania.
 
The Arberesh of Italy are a living proof of Albanian roots in Epiros,since they still hold teh Skanderbeg flag and speak the Albanian language.
 
Their folk and traditions which survive today speak of their origines from where today is the Greek state,and for the sake of truth we should not deny this.
 
You still to this day have people in greece which speak albanain.The old Arvanites.
 
 
Find me one single acount of the time that speaks about epirur being Greek?Just one.
 
Every single one speaks of all epirus as being albanian.And even further then Epirus. 
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Posts: 884 		  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 20:40
Oh I know that. But I do not think that vranakonti knows/thinks that. I simply wanted to know his perspective as to what tone any discussion on similar subjects can be had.
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Posts: 1800 		  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 19:08
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

Still hasn't answered if he thinks alexander and aristotle were albanian. I think he does believe that but he doesn't want to admit it because then everyone would regard him like that Petro Ivictus guy. To that I say rest assured, most people already do. But it seems some do not even have the character to stand up for what they believe in.
 
I don't understand why this is even a problem or a question that needs to be asked.  Is it not a bit anachronistic to posit that Alexander or Aristotle were anything else but Greek?  They surely were not Persian or Hebrew.  If anything, we may make the distinction that Alexander was the son of Philip of Macedon, so he was a Macedonian Greek in the context of the ancient geographic region that was Macedonia.  Aristotle was from the Chalkidikian peninsula, which was part of greater Greece, and spoke/wrote in the Greek language.  I think it is safe to say that he was Greek as well.
 
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Posts: 884 		  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 18:59
I just can't think of any other reason why he wouldn't want to answer that simple question. When someone asks me something like that I say yes or no and maybe even follow up to an explination as to why.
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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 12:05
No problem... I did not formulate in a good tone eather.


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Posts: 117 		  Quote vranakonti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 11:55

I think that your first reply ,was just a misunderstanding , that’s because you selectively quoted a phrase from my post without considering the general context ,the discussion was about Skanderbeg’s letter and that phrase of mine was strictly related to that letter.But also i  i can’t accept your phrase ,”Ask it to the epirotes”, hence my reaction,because for me that name is only an anachronistic revival more political then historically motivated ,especially when it starts with “North”.

 

Well, they lived in that area so...I don't doubt he called them so. Besides, in a time were heroism is needed you need something to unite people and make them proud to refresh their moral.  I find nothing strange with that at all.

 

Thanks for your answer ,is what  i was asking for,from the beginning .In general,i agree with the contents your last post, not on everything though, but this is not the right thread to discuss about.

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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 08:07
Carp Wolf...Let's not provoke him for no reason mate. Vranakonti is not a P. Inviticus case for sure. 


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Posts: 884 		  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2008 at 17:25
Still hasn't answered if he thinks alexander and aristotle were albanian. I think he does believe that but he doesn't want to admit it because then everyone would regard him like that Petro Ivictus guy. To that I say rest assured, most people already do. But it seems some do not even have the character to stand up for what they believe in.
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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2008 at 09:33
Originally posted by vranakonti

Seems to me that we have also a Greek case here.

Its true we have a lot a complexes dear Flipper like every other balkan nation but not the one of calling ourselves  with handsome ancient names.We don’t call ourselves Epirotes,Illyrians or Dardanians or even Albanians.


Well, that is maybe your case and indeed we shouldn't generalize. You know that there are others that do not act like you.


Originally posted by vranakonti

For us,our 200 old years name Shqipetar is more than enough,and we just laugh when we see  modern Macedonians,fighting with modern Greeks,for a name or the new selfmade Epirotes(the guys in that website) asking for half of our territory.



Whenever you hear Epirotes, you think of people living in your area and call it Northern Epirus. Well, i do not call them exclusivelly so... I'm talking about our side of the border mainly. Also, I do not agree on border changes etc in 2008 or 10 or 20...Don't get me wrong.


Originally posted by vranakonti


However I repeat Skanderbeg,did it,not,me,he was called Epirotarum princep,he personally admitted that all his soldiers were epirotes,even the league of the Albanian lords,later known as Albanian was named The Epirotic league.


Well, they lived in that area so...I don't doubt he called them so. Besides, in a time were heroism is needed you need something to unite people and make them proud to refresh their moral.  I find nothing strange with that at all.


Originally posted by vranakonti

Well I f you have any proof that Skanderbeg,had Greek soldiers and he brought them in his Italian campaign, or that he was Greek,or that the participants of the league were instead Greek nobles,hence the name epirot,then please bring us these evidences,and stop throwing hot air with veiled nationalistic posts.



I have never said skanderberg was Greek nor do i care. It is your national hero.


Originally posted by vranakonti


Epirus have a long history,and it wasn’t exclusively Greek,if you are not able to admit it then sorry in my eyes you are not better than your Macedonian neighbours.


Yes, indeed, i don't disagree with that. What I disagree with is people who say Pyrrhus = Albanian, Molossians = Albanians, Illyrians = Epirotic Greek tribe, Albanians = Turks etc. Do you get me know? I'm against all side claims.


Originally posted by vranakonti

And who is the real Epirote Vasil Bollano(in the photo),the Albanian from Tepelena self-declared Greek 10 years ago and that now is seeking independence for his adoptive village(Himara)?

Ps.Indeed you are paying them for being nothing,because for me people changing their identity for a monthly income of 300 euro,are indeed nothing.



Again, I told you when I say Epirotes i don't exclusively mean those of southern Albania. As for the 300 euros a month it is baseless...They can actually get a Green card and work for more money than that. Would you imply that noone in Albania is "northern Epirote"? What happened to the people of the Greek colonies of the past or those who somehow ended up in your side of the borders? Did they simply dissappear or are the fake "northern epirotes" more than the real ones?


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Posts: 117 		  Quote vranakonti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2008 at 08:36
Originally posted by Flipper

Me too Loled...
Seems that we have one more FYROM case here. I wouldn't like to see the reaction of an Epirotes, reading what you just said but anyway. In any case, since you believe what you say, you seem to spread very bad rumours about other countrymen of yours... You actually say that you can pay them to be anything... Good one. Clap
 

Seems to me that we have also a Greek case here.

Its true we have a lot a complexes dear Flipper like every other balkan nation but not the one of calling ourselves  with handsome ancient names.We don’t call ourselves Epirotes,Illyrians or Dardanians or even Albanians.For us,our 200 old years name Shqipetar is more than enough,and we just laugh when we see  modern Macedonians,fighting with modern Greeks,for a name or the new selfmade Epirotes(the guys in that website) asking for half of our territory.

 

However I repeat Skanderbeg,did it,not,me,he was called Epirotarum princep,he personally admitted that all his soldiers were epirotes,even the league of the Albanian lords,later known as Albanian was named The Epirotic league.Well I f you have any proof that Skanderbeg,had Greek soldiers and he brought them in his Italian campaign, or that he was Greek,or that the participants of the league were instead Greek nobles,hence the name epirot,then please bring us these evidences,and stop throwing hot air with veiled nationalistic posts.

Epirus have a long history,and it wasn’t exclusively Greek,if you are not able to admit it then sorry in my eyes you are not better than your Macedonian neighbours.

 

And who is the real Epirote Vasil Bollano(in the photo),the Albanian from Tepelena self-declared Greek 10 years ago and that now is seeking independence for his adoptive village(Himara)?

Ps.Indeed you are paying them for being nothing,because for me people changing their identity for a monthly income of 300 euro,are indeed nothing.



Edited by vranakonti - 23-Jun-2008 at 08:55
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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2008 at 06:20
Me too Loled...
Seems that we have one more FYROM case here. I wouldn't like to see the reaction of an Epirotes, reading what you just said but anyway. In any case, since you believe what you say, you seem to spread very bad rumours about other countrymen of yours... You actually say that you can pay them to be anything... Good one. Clap


Edited by Flipper - 23-Jun-2008 at 06:23


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I loled.
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Posts: 117 		  Quote vranakonti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2008 at 00:12
Originally posted by Flipper

Originally posted by vranakonti


Not the epirotes fighting with Skanderbeg for sure.You can find the descendents of his soldiers still today,in south Italy,and they speak an call themselves Albanian.



In that sense, the Kurds who fought for Kemal were Turks, the Albanians who fought for the Turks are Turks as well, the Ionian Greeks who fought for the Persians were Persians and the list goes on.

Do not mix Epirotes with southern Albanians and maybe you should ask them yourself what they are: Epirote youth central

They had 2 choices: Be enslaved or fight with a man who cared about the freedom of the area and all its people no matter their ethnic background.
 
 
And the Albanians that fought with Greeks,were Greeks i bet.Ill mix the epirotes with Albanians all day long Flipper,Scandrbeg did,so why shouldn't i?
I already said it and i can repeat it again,in medieval terms,Albanians and epirotes where often the same thing. 
 
I don't have to ask things to people that call themselves Greeks for money.
 
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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 23:49
Originally posted by vranakonti


Not the epirotes fighting with Skanderbeg for sure.You can find the descendents of his soldiers still today,in south Italy,and they speak an call themselves Albanian.



In that sense, the Kurds who fought for Kemal were Turks, the Albanians who fought for the Turks are Turks as well, the Ionian Greeks who fought for the Persians were Persians and the list goes on.

Do not mix Epirotes with southern Albanians and maybe you should ask them yourself what they are: Epirote youth central

They had 2 choices: Be enslaved or fight with a man who cared about the freedom of the area and all its people no matter their ethnic background.


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Posts: 884 		  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 21:54
First off I want to ask again because you seemed to miss it. Were Alexander the Great and Aristotle in your opinion Albanian? Simple question with a simple answer. I don't know why you can't answer it.
 
"Indeed he is saying that his soldiers ancestours fought with Aleksander and not that they are of their same stock.Also he calls his soldiers Albanians or Epirotes,clearly two names describing the same people.Albanians were often called Epirotes,in those times,probably even Greeks in this forun wiil confirm this to you."
 
No he turns to speak about the Epirotes and how they fought with Alexander. Not Albanians.
 
"Not the epirotes fighting with Skanderbeg for sure.You can find the descendents of his soldiers still today,in south Italy,and they speak an call themselves Albanian."

Ok? Your first sentence doesn't make sense. re-write it and then we can discuss.
 
"You used a racist remark,and you did it consciously."

I'd like to see how you can prove that. I said siptare because i thought it was just an alternate spelling of shqiptare. I don't care one way or another if you believe me.
 
"Hunyady can be what ever you wan’t,but Skanderbeg not only fought in Albania but also was an Albanian and that’s why the prince of Taranto called him “Giorgio Albanese” (the Albanian).I told you before Skanderbeg can’t be Greek just because you say so. If you have read it somewhere in hope in some book,just bring here the quote or the author and let discuss, about it.Just a tip i know at least one famous english author(not historian though),that called him Greek,but i doub't you have ever heard about him."
 
I personally don't really care, I just think his alignment with Albania is more due to circumstance then anything else. I don't think I ever denied he was Albanian more so then I denied he was only Albanian. I had read that his mother was Greek whatever that is worth.
 
"First of all none here is talking about you mothers sexual life"
You're the only one that brought it up >_>
 
"unless you are trying to provoke another reaction like the one GoldenBlood had some days ago,however i cordially ask you to choose your words better next time."

I didn't provoke anything. It is simply that some people can not express in words what their mind is thinking and then continuing on this path of inability simply smack the keyboard with big four lettered words. I can not be held accountable for their actions. Only my own. I had some questions I asked I think rather respectfully or at least respectfully where I didn't have any moderators hopping furious about what i had said in any particular shape form etc etc.
 
"But ok lets see again some of those Checenian words."

Thank you. That's all I had wanted.
 
"So man spare me this crap and next time go find smth better,if you wan’t to sustain at least a decent debate."

Keep the attitude to yourself next time.
 
"No it proves nothing,since the one talking is Gjon Muzaka, (John Musachi)an Albanian lord,and also despot of epirus,and he is speaking about his family not Skanderbegs.so that was  just another example of Albania and Epirus used together."
 
Just because Epirus may have been ruled over via Albania does not make it one and the same thing. Just how Transilvania was ruled over from Hungary it does not make it Hungarian.
 
"Spania,Moesia?What are you talking about? "

Was called an example. I thought it was fairly simple.
 
"There’s not an North Albanian citizenship,but an Albanian citizenship.So If they say;born in North Albania,that’s a geographical indication,and again do you know where north Albania is and where is Greece?"

Never said there was...you missed my point again.
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