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tjadams
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Topic: Was Custer a war criminal? Posted: 03-Dec-2011 at 02:01 |
The US policy was to subdue the Indian by any means and if that meant moving them by force off their legal land, then so be it by any means. If it meant wiping out their food supplies forcing them the weaken and starve to death or forced them against their will to live on a policed reservation, then it was done by any means. Any tribe that resisted or held out was pressured by any means necessary to clean the land and make it ready for white settlement. Whole Indian bands were forcibly assimilated in hopes of wiping out their identity by forcing them to become Christian, losing their cultural structure, lose their language, lose their history. Reservation life resulted in high alcoholism for Indians making them docile and easily managed. Genocide is an ugly word that can go down many holes in definition, but ultimately it comes out of one.
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lirelou
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Posted: 02-Dec-2011 at 23:59 |
Considering that the Indian policy of the United States was not their eradication, but rather to remove them from areas adjacent to settlers and eventually assimilate them into American society, I fail to see how the charge of genocide can be maintained, except in so loose a sense as to deny the term and real meaning. Custer was a warrior, and no less bloodthirsty than any of his opponents, whose very society rested upon making war against weaker peoples, and defending against the stronger. Used in the context of the Indian Wars, genocide becomes just another word.
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tjadams
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Posted: 02-Dec-2011 at 19:41 |
Originally posted by Autie
Any ill words of my hero would, at one time, have bothered me a lot. I am such a kinder, gentler Custerphile now. I will be back on this thread Monday, 2 Dec (GAC's Birthday) to post some information on his behalf![Heart Heart](http://www.allempires.com/forum/smileys/smiley27.gif) |
Good to see the personal growth. My man-crush-idol-worship-church-of Thomas Jefferson can withstand the attacks as well. He wasn't perfect, he wasn't always right, but if you follow one of his commandments of "taking things by the smooth handle", debates come out smooth as well.
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Nick1986
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Posted: 02-Dec-2011 at 19:07 |
I've always viewed Custer as a bloodthirsty murderer and willing participant in America's genocide of the Indians. At Little Big Horn he deliberately attacked the village where the women and children were
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Autie
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Posted: 01-Dec-2011 at 21:31 |
Any ill words of my hero would, at one time, have bothered me a lot. I am such a kinder, gentler Custerphile now. I will be back on this thread Monday, 2 Dec (GAC's Birthday) to post some information on his behalf
Edited by Autie - 01-Dec-2011 at 21:32
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“[I have] too much confidence in your zeal, energy, and ability to wish to impose upon you precise orders...” - Terry to Custer
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Ranlaw
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Posted: 21-Nov-2011 at 19:42 |
Custer got what he deserved and to to me he was no hero but no way as bad as that psychopath Sherman
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tjadams
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Posted: 06-Nov-2011 at 09:34 |
Could be true Nick.
Under the cover of war, normal, sanus men can easily crack and do what they normally wouldn't do. Then there are the disturbed ones who in private life see nothing wrong with their life choices and take it to the next, legal level, while wearing a uniform in time of war.
Edited by tjadams - 06-Nov-2011 at 09:34
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Nick1986
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Posted: 05-Nov-2011 at 20:10 |
Some troopers acted like barbarians out West. I've heard Sherman's men (many of whom were ex-Jayhawkers) scalped dead enemies, made necklaces out of their teeth, and cut off the breasts of Indian women
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tjadams
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Posted: 04-Nov-2011 at 22:26 |
It is always simple deduction: be on the winning side. Being on the winning team allows your the wide scope of being a hero of your nation and doing what needed to be done to make your nation safe and secure for the betterment of your people. Being on the winning side makes one's legacy as tough, determined and of valor. Dying young and the way his death has been whitewashed prevents him from being fenced in as a criminal.
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opuslola
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Posted: 28-May-2011 at 19:48 |
Yes, unclefred, it is always hard for someone to place theirselves into another time, and another place!
For some reason, things seem to change!
Regards,
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unclefred
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Posted: 27-May-2011 at 10:36 |
It seems that almost every thread you see on forums these days criticizes him on the basis of atrocities against the poor 'noble savage'. This is completely wrongheaded and it makes me quite cynical concerning the indoctrination kids are getting in public school. I'm not talking about Nick, I know he is just starting discussion.
Edited by unclefred - 27-May-2011 at 10:37
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Cryptic
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Posted: 27-May-2011 at 10:19 |
Originally posted by Nick1986
After the war he was involved in the genocide of the Indians: women were raped, children were butchered and families were driven off their land. He made a peace treaty vowing to leave the Indians alone, only to resume his attacks on their settlements.
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Is there any evidence that Custer or his unit ever committed large scale atrocities against Native Americans? I dont think there is.
The only war crimes that Custer seems guilty of is using Native American civilian hostages as human shields (Washita Creek) to prevent warriors from sniping or attempting to over run his column as he withdrew. The vast magority of the 50 or so Native Americans killed in the actual battle were combatants.
Even at Little Bighorn, Custer's intent was not to kill either Native American civilians or even combatants per se. Rather, his intent was to give a "show of strength" that would intimidate the Cheyenne and Sioux to return to their reservations under cavalry escort.
Yes, Custer's intimidation plan was probably going to involve killing several dozen combatants and a few non combatants (that is the way it usually worked), but Custer never planned a "genocide".
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis
The idea he was an Indian hater and destroyer given the conditions and social characteristics of the desires of the populace at large given the context of the era... won't wash any more today then it did then.
at worse he remains merely a inept tactician on the moring of the Greasy Grass.
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Well said.
Custer is guilty of leading what by 1876 was an inexperienced paramilitary police unit into battle against a determined enemy. Custer's tactics were like IJN planning in the later stages of the war: Very complex and good in theory. On "D-Day" neither Custers troopers as individuals nor his company and platoon commanders had the skills and resolve to carry them out. Custer, however, gave orders as if he was leading a trained, combat experienced regiment in 1864.
Could Jeb Stuarts cavalry won with the same Custer battle plan? Maybe, or maybe not, but they would not have been over run.
Even Custer's orders showed good tactics but poor execution:
-"Attention unskilled and undrilled police unit , we are under fire, out numbered, and in difficult terrain. Nobody panic, nobody break and run and no wild shooting (yeah, right).
-Companies will execute a bounding withdraw while covering each other. Commanders, you must synchronize the actions of your units with each other (uhmm, OK, just like in the book we read once)
-The smaller part of the regiment will respond aggressively. On his own initiative, the commander is going to realize my emergency situation and intent. His unit is going to break out of their weak encirclement, ignore harassing fire and link up with us (not a chance)....
Edited by Cryptic - 27-May-2011 at 11:47
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 27-May-2011 at 03:20 |
Can't start with GA....you must start with the Spanish who paved the way for the enslavement and genocide (as the term is properly identified in modern context) of natives 400 years before he was born.
Ask the Arawaks....but wait we can't...... they no onger exsist. And not because of GAC.
The idea he was an Indian hater and destroyer given the conditions and social characteristics of the desires of the populace at large given the context of the era... won't wash any more today then it did then.
At best he's been a convienent scapegoat for AIM....at worse he remains merely a inept tactician on the moring of the Greasy Grass.
Not to mention the term or identification was not relevent to his time and has an identification of a very short and recent life span....and application in the common parlance.
Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 27-May-2011 at 03:29
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Nick1986
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Posted: 26-May-2011 at 19:33 |
After his death George Armstrong Custer was lionised as a hero. Known for his flashy uniforms, fair hair and red scarves Custer hired journalists during his lifetime to record his actions. Behind the heroic facade, however, Custer was guilty of some terrible acts.
During the Civil War he ordered the hanging of captured Confederate soldiers (until they threatened to do the same to his men). After the war he was involved in the genocide of the Indians: women were raped, children were butchered and families were driven off their land. He made a peace treaty vowing to leave the Indians alone, only to resume his attacks on their settlements.
Eventually, his arrogance caused his downfall: ignoring the advice of his scouts and foolishly leaving the Gatling Guns behind, he attacked the defenceless village at Little Bighorn only to be overwhelmed by Sitting Bull's braves. Viewing this butcher with the contempt he deserved, the Indians refused to scalp his corpse and left it to rot like carrion
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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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