Partition of Macedonia:

On the explicit order of the newly crowned Greek King Konstantine, the town of Kukush was set on fire. In the villages of the same district 4725 Bulgarian houses were burnt down (Report of the Bulgarian Commission, p. 315). The Bulgarian houses were burnt in the villages of Negovan, Ravna, Bogorod; in the Doyran vilayet 11 villages were burnt, in Demir Hisar - 5 villages were burnt, in Seres district 5 villages were burnt, and in Gevgely region - 15 villages were burnt, etc.

Originally posted by bg_turk Partition of Macedonia: In 1912-1913 the Greek troops entered Aegean Macedonia as conquerors, although their history textbooks spoke about "liberation of Macedonia". These troops undertook a systematic ethnic cleansing of the conquered territories. In this respect, they preceded the Serbian racists in their actions in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Bulgarian people are hardly aware of the way the Greek Army "liberated" Macedonia. In that respect, however, there are international documents testifying that the Greek troops, on their way into Macedonia, were not considered liberators at all. In the face of the Bulgarian population there they saw an alien people, and they behaved as occupiers to it. On the explicit order of the newly crowned Greek King Konstantine, the town of Kukush was set on fire. In the villages of the same district 4725 Bulgarian houses were burnt down (Report of the Bulgarian Commission, p. 315). The Bulgarian houses were burnt in the villages of Negovan, Ravna, Bogorod; in the Doyran vilayet 11 villages were burnt, in Demir Hisar - 5 villages were burnt, in Seres district 5 villages were burnt, and in Gevgely region - 15 villages were burnt, etc. According to the final data of the Commission, the Greeks had set on fire 161 Bulgarian villages with a total of 16,000 houses (see p. 315 of the above mentioned report). The population was subjected to all possible violence in order to proclaim itself Greek. All Regulations of the occupational Greek troops were published in Greek, Turkish and Jewish. Bulgarian language did not exist. The Bulgarian population was compelled to sign declarations claiming it was Greek since ancient times, but called itself ,,Bulgarian" under the influence of the Bulgarian propaganda. Other declarations claimed that up till 1903 all were Greeks but since 1903-1906 they were forced by the Bulgarian commits to claim themselves Bulgarians. Both theses ended with the same declaration that now the liberating Greek Army had come, the population wanted to receive the benevolence of ,,our great Orthodox Greek church". The Greek eusons played the role of ,,apostles" and converted the villagers with the help of the bayonets. As an example can serve the villages in the region of Kostour: Gabresh, Drenoveni, Chernovitsa, Turie, Zagoricheni, Dambeni. In the villages of Breznitsa, Gorno and Doino Nestrame all the village people were put to prison and then where released after having proclaimed themselves Greeks (p. 197). The Muhammadans from the village of Cherveny were also proclaimed Greeks, although they spoke Bulgarian, and not Greek (p. 198). The Greek Army entered Voden in October 18-31. Ten days later the population was told: "Your tongues will be cut off if you speak Bulgarian." The property of the villagers was taken away. The churches and the schools were closed down. The Slavonic inscriptions were erased; the priests were beaten and expelled. All people of public power in the villages of Veshtitsa, Tsrmarinovi, Piskopia, and Arsen were arrested. They were told "if you want to be free, say that you are Greeks" (p. 199). As soon as the Second Balkan War broke out, over 200 Bulgarians from that region - priests, teachers, eminent figures and wealthy people - were arrested and sent to Salonica after assaults. In the beginning of July the whole population was compelled to sign the following declaration: "Threatened by the rebels and under the influence of the Exarchate propaganda, we became Bulgarians. Now we profess the true faith and proclaim our Hellenic nationality." The conduct of the Turkish Army on the territory of Aegean Macedonia was in no way different in its attitude towards the Bulgarians. In its comprehensive report comprising 410 pages, the authoritative international commission established by the Carnegie Endowment for studying the reasons for conducting the Balkan Wars presented ample and incontestable evidence for the ethnic cleansing and assaults done by the Greek Army on the territory of Macedonia which was ,,liberated", by them. Appendix No 51, p. 307 (in the English issue) presents 28 letters sent by Greek soldiers who did their military service in the 19th Regiment of the Seventh Greek Division. These letters were meant to be sent to the soldiers' families but the post was captured and so these letters became evidence for the Commission of Inquiry. Below are given some excerpts from such letters:   Letter No3                                                                                Attn. Mr. Sotir Papanidou                                                                                distr. Itinou, Trikala Reka Nesto, 12 July 1913 Here, in Rondu (Brodi) I took as captives five Bulgarians and a girl from Seres... I killed the girl. And I gouged the eyes of the Bulgarians while they were still alive.                                                                                Sincerely yours, Kosta Letter No5 The Bulgarian border, 11 July 1913 Dear brother Mitso,... we put to fire every Bulgarian village from Seres to the border...                                                                                Jonnah Hristo Tsigaridis Letter No9                                                                                Attn. Mr. Zaharia Kalivanis                                                                                Erfos - Milinotamos - Crates Weput to fire every Bulgarian village we occupied, and we killed all Bulgarians we met.                                                                                S. Z. Kalivanis Letter No11 The Bulgarian border, 12 July 1913 Even the cats could not escape wherever we passed. We put to fire every Bulgarian village on our way.                                                                                Your loving brother: corp. George Letter No13                                                                                Mr. Demetrius Tsigarida Hipati Fitiotis I was given 16 captives to take to the division. And I bought there only two of them. I killed the rest in the darkness.                                                                                Niko Theofilados Letter No15                                                                                Attn. Georgi Karka                                                                                1st Dept. Sanitary Corps                                                                                9th Division Argiroastro - Epir, 12 July 1913 Dear brother Georgi, On the King's orders, we put to fire every Bulgarian village. We rape every Bulgarian woman we meet.                                                                                Regards, Nikos Zarvas Letter No16 14 July 1913                                                                                Mr. Arisidi Tanasia Kampiati,                                                                                Municipality of Antama,                                                                                Trikala, Thessalia ... We put the villages to fire and we kill the Bulgarians - women and children.                                                                                Anastas Patros Letter No23                                                                                Anastas Patros                                                                                Independent Regiment                                                                                of Crates 12th Company Attn. Corp. M. N. Logiadi - Aestroviki - Epir We had a small combat near Strouma with refugees from Kukush and Lahna. Our guns smashed them into pieces on their way (while they were running away - author's note)                                                                                Anastas Patros In conclusion, the International Commission claimed: ,,The documents in the possession of the Commission allow to state that there has been a policy of assimilation of the Bulgarian population in Southern Macedonia. The methods of assimilation and physical extinction have been applied systematically and without any humanness" (p. 186). The final days of the citys of Kukus levelled off by the greeks, its inhabitants ethnically cleansed and exterminated. You can find these letters and much more on the thnic cleansing of Macedonia in the following book (search it on Amazon): A Greek author also studies the ethnic cleansing. The study has provoked an extreme nationalistic backlash in Greece: From Library Journal One rarely encounters a scholarly book as disturbing as this provocative work, a study of ethnicity in the Greek province of Macedonia. It is so controversial that Cambridge University Press, fearing for the safety of its staff in Greece, refused to publish it. Having spent some time with villagers of the region, Karakasidou (anthropology, Queens Coll., CUNY) maintains that Macedonia is not exclusively Greek, as nationalists claim, but is instead a multiethnic, multicultural region experiencing the political and religious upheavals engulfing the rest of the Balkans. Karakasidou's obsession with the truth has brought her death threats, apparently from outraged Greeks. Her powerfully written book is a resounding statement of human courage, reminding readers that there is no substitute for honesty and critical thought. This superb book is highly recommended for all large social science collections.?John Xanthopoulos, Art Inst. of Fort Lauderdale, Fla. Copyright 1997 Reed Business Information, Inc. Book Description Deftly combining archival sources with evocative life histories, Anastasia Karakasidou brings welcome clarity to the contentious debate over ethnic identities and nationalist ideologies in Greek Macedonia. Her vivid and detailed account demonstrates that contrary to official rhetoric, the current people of Greek Macedonia ultimately derive from profoundly diverse ethnic and cultural backgrounds. Throughout the last century, a succession of regional and world conflicts, economic migrations, and shifting state formations has engendered an intricate pattern of population movements and refugee resettlements across the region. Unraveling the complex social, political, and economic processes through which these disparate peoples have become culturally amalgamated within an overarchingly Greek national identity, this book provides an important corrective to the Macedonian picture and an insightful analysis of the often volatile conjunction of ethnicities and nationalisms in the twentieth century. "Combining the thoughtful use of theory with a vivid historical ethnography, this is an important, courageous, and pioneering work which opens up the whole issue of nation-building in northern Greece."--Mark Mazower, University of Sussex

Your opening up a fire under your ass.  Macedonia was a region, not a country. Thrace was split up, you do not see "Thracians" saying their "country" was split. You conquered Kurdistan and are still trying to ethnically cleanse the area.

I am a Bulgarian citizen, and I have no association with Kurdistan, let alone its ... as you put it ... "conquering". 

And you yet have not backed Bulgaria in any such topic, but only turkey. Look at your log in name! You are a turk, and from your posts, clearly pro turkish. Oh I see, you are only pro turkish to some degree, and if any critisism comes up about turkey, you can hide behind that bulgarian flag..

Around 900.000 Turks were either forced to immigrate or massacred by the Greek forces and Bulgarians until WWI, especially after the Balkan wars to create ethnically heterogenious Christian nation states there. Cities like Salonika, Yenishehir (in Greece), Gumulcine, Iskeçe (Kimotini-Xanthi- still Turkish cities), Varna, Kostence, Deliorman, Kýrcaali were Turkish cities by majority just like most of Bosnia and parts of Macedonia. These cities are where ethnic cleansing mainly occured. Balkans were clearly Turkified after 500 years of Turkish rule and the iskan policy of the Ottoman Empire that Turks from Anatolia were settled to the urban regions. Balkans were more Turkish than even some Anatolian regions such as the region around Izmir and Trabzon before that ethnic cleansing. But unfortunately today, no European historian cares about this fact, but they mainly concentrate about the Armenian issue.

The ethnic cleansing of Turks from Bulgaria:

Although Bulgaria declared official independence from Ottoman suzerainty in 1908, the country effectively enjoyed independent freedom of action after its acquisition of autonomous status at the Congress of Berlin in 1878. This success was the result of a botched national uprising in 1876, which was repressed so violently by Ottoman irregular forces that European outrage over stories of Christians being butchered permitted Russia to undertake a war against the Ottoman Empire expressly for creating a Bulgarian national state. Religious antagonisms ran at fever pitch throughout those events. The Bulgarian rebels achieved little beyond staging patriotic rallies in the few villages that they held and massacring their Muslim neighbors. The so-called “Bulgarian Horrors” inflicted on the rebels in putting down their uprising were perpetrated by irregular forces (ba{ýbozuks) mostly recruited from Muslim villagers in the rebellious regions, many of whom lost relatives and friends at the Christian rebels hands or had heard their own horror stories of such events. During the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78, Russian troops conducted a policy of anti-Muslim genocide in Bulgarian-inhabited Balkan territories and Bulgarians, both military volunteers and civilians, frequently acted as their accomplices. By the time that the fighting stopped in March 1878, some 260,000 of those Muslims who had inhabited the lands that ultimately came to comprise modern Bulgaria (i.e., Bulgaria Proper [lands north of the Balkan Mountains but including the Sofia region to their south] and Eastern Rumeli lands south of the Balkan Mountains, including the Plovdiv and Sliven regions]) were killed or had died of maltreatment. Another 500,000 were driven out, becoming refugees in Ottoman Thracian and Anatolian territories. In all, some 17 percent of the fifteen million Muslims who lived in the Bulgarian lands prior to the rebellion and war were dead and 34 percent were expelled permanently.

The Berlin Treaty creating an autonomous Bulgarian Principality included provisions protecting the life and property of the new states Muslim citizens, as did the states highly liberal-democratic constitution written under Russian auspices. Despite those legal constraints, however, local Bulgarian authorities and Bulgarian villagers, animated by inflamed religious ethnonational emotions (combined with land greed), continued to attack and uproot Muslim villagers with the tacit approval of the state government. Such actions reached their culmination in the heightened national feelings surrounding the union of Eastern Rumeli with Bulgaria Proper in 1885, after which concerns over international recognition put a damper on overt anti-Muslim activities. Thereafter, the governing nationalists found ways within the law to subtly reduce the political and social positions of the Muslim minority and to pressure them into emigrating so that their lands and businesses could be expropriated for fellow Christian, Slavic-speaking Bulgarians and the state made more reflective of the ethnonational nation-state ideal.

Land laws were passed placing vacant land into government hands (with monetary compensation paid to the absentee owners, thus providing an incentive for buying off Muslim owners), which then was sold cheaply to desirous peasants (who invariably were Christian Slavic Bulgarians). Courtroom decisions involving cases pitting Christian Bulgarians against Muslims nearly always were decided in favor of the former. Mountains of red tape helped render permanent the illegal expropriation of Muslim properties by Bulgarians during the turmoil of 1877 through 1885, while the Bulgarian-controlled government increasingly encroached on the operations of the Muslims own institutions (especially education, local community councils, and religious courts) in the name of increasing centralized administrative efficiency. A reversion to more blatant anti-Muslim actions accompanied the Bulgarians heightened nationalist fervor during the Balkan Wars of 1912-13, when military operations brought into the state further Thracian territory with a predominantly Turkish-speaking population. Some Muslims were forced to change their Islamic Turco-Arabic names for Christian Slavic ones. By the end of the Balkan Wars, the Muslims presence in Bulgaria's total population had been reduced from the 26 percent that they held in 1878 to 14 percent (with Turkish speakers comprising 10.8 percent of the total population) because of near constant emigration. Higher birth rates among Muslims relative to those among Christian Slavic Bulgarians kept the minority's share of the total population fairly constant at around 13 percent (and at approximately 10 percent for Turkish speakers) into the 1980s.300

Bulgaria's Muslim minority was comprised of various ethniccomponents. The largest was the Turkish speakers, who generally constituted between 75 and 89 percent of the Muslim minority during any given census year between 1887 and 1992.301 They were concentrated in the eastern, northeastern, and southern regions of the state. Pomaks (or Bulgarian-speaking Muslims), who mainly inhabited the central and western Rhodope region in southern Bulgaria, represented the second largest component of the Muslim minority, ranging from 12.8 percent (in 1920, the first year in which Muslim ethnic identity was included in the census) to 14.7 percent in 1992.302 The remaining Muslims were divided among Gypsies (found scattered throughout the state), Tatars (living mostly in Bulgarian Dobrudzha), and Albanians (found in a smattering of urban centers).

You know this topic is going to be closed down, right?

Thats why there are still so many Turks living in Bulgaria? Turks still have a presence in Greek thrace. But were is there any minority presence in turkey? Accept for the millions of kurds?

I am here to express my opinion not to back any country. Yes I am a turk and in Bulgaria I am free to call myself a Turk, unlike in some other countries may I note.

Yes, can we please keep on topic. The topic of this thread is the ethnic cleansing of slavs in Macedonia.

If you want to discuss the situation with the muslims in the Balkans after the Balkan wars, or the situation of the kurds, or the christian minorities in Turkey, please open another thread, I would be glad to contribute.

As I said if you want to discuss kurds open another thread.

Opinion of what? You did not even type any of that, thats all copied and pasted!

I typed parts of it.

Some of it is copied from Macedonian and Bulgarian sources yes.

I do not see why does it needs to get banned?

PS. It would be helpful not to quote the whole preceding article in your replies. Just the parts that you are specifically replying to would be enough. Thanks.

The topic is about the ethnic cleansing of Turks from Rumeli. The Turks, sorry, Muslims of Western Thrace aren't that well behaved at all.

Oh, they behind fine. There not planning on moving, and unlike other governments, greek government does not plan to move them (directly or indirectly)

Well I originally intended the topic to be the ethnic cleansing of slavs from Macedonia only, but we can extend it to all the non-greeks of Macedonia inlcuding Turks. Yet, it must be noted that the ethnic cleansing of the Turkish people is not nerely as dramatic as that of the slavic people since turks were a small minority in the region.

The turkish presence in Macedonia (Ataturk is actually a Macedonian Turk, born in Salonique)was most visible in Salonique/Selanik/Solun/Thesaloniki but after the greek invasion of the city the whole muslim population was eradicated.

When Selanik fell, during the First Balkan War, all of its muslim inhabitants have been cleansed, mosques burned and destroyed and the muslim quaters of the city sacked. Look at a picture of the city in 1900 (under ottoman control) and in 1930 (under greek control) and you will see one crucial difference - the disappearance of all minaretes. Selanik, or Thesaloniki according to greeks and Solun according to Slavs, has been ethnically cleansed of its muslim inhabitants. Only those that managed to catch the last life saving train to Istanbul survived the greek invasion.

Here are some old images of the city:

As you can see, minarettes dominated the skiline of the city, along with its many churches. Selanik used to be a very metropolitan city before the greek invasion. Greeks, Turks, Bulgarians lives mostly peacefully and in coexistence.

Today the only trace of the turkish community is this mosque:

Its minarette is missing.

You need to pick a topic and stop switching subjects. You tell me its about "ethnic cleansing in Macedonia", but perhaps I need to Make a topic of ethnic cleansing of Cyprus, Ethnic cleansing of Eastern anatolia, ethnic cleansing of western turkey, ethnic cleansing of istanbul. WIll you join me in these discussions as well? Should I copy and paste some more junk as you did?

Here is a map of the ethnic composition of the region in 1861:

Two alternative maps of the ethnic composition prior to the Balkan wars:

Serbian point of view:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/86/Macedonia_-_Point_of_View_of_the_Serbs.jpg - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/86/Macedonia_-_Po int_of_View_of_the_Serbs.jpg

Bulgarian point of view:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dd/Macedonia_-_Point_of_View_of_the_Bulgarians.jpg - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dd/Macedonia_-_Po int_of_View_of_the_Bulgarians.jpg

THe region was hottly contested between Serbia and Bulgaria, and while there were some disagreement between the two countries to which nation the slavic population belonged, it is undoubtedly clear that the majority of the population had slavic origins.

Today very few slavs and turks remain.

You must also know greece and bulgaria had a population exchange?

ANd i cannot say this map is very accurate.

Check this site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedoni a

The maps it provides are authentic and from several independent source. Virtually all of them agree with the above map.

Yes, there was an "agreed population" exchange. Bulgaria lost the Second Balkan War and most of the condition on the population exchange were dictated by Greece. After the second balkan war bulgaria was virutally inundated with refugees from Macedonia, which fell to the greeks, and Eastern Thrace, which was taken by Turkey.

My Friend Bulgarian Turk.

Your posts came from the Carnegie Endowment. And you cutting quotes is unfair against of the Commission job, and as Greek I believed was neutral. The Commision speak for Thrace and Macedonia.I am staying in your thread.

Let’s see what was the ethnography of the Macedonia. The terms Aegean, Vardar, Pirin  Macedonia were not exists pro-WWII. The commission speaks for Macedonia and for Greek and Serbian. Is known that the Bulgaria Macedonian part consider as part of Thrace.

The rival claims to Macedonia might be summed up under the following main heads:-

(1) "Historical rights" to the possession of Macedonia, acquired by Simeon the Bulgarian or Douchan the Servian. (Tenth or fourteenth century.)

(2) Resemblance in customs (above all those pertaining to the Fete of New Year's Day-the Slava, claimed by the Servians as the sign of their nationality).

(3) Religion-exarchist or patriarchist.

(4) The spoken language.

[Carnegie Endowment Report, pages 26-27]

At the pages 28-30 we have three statistics that have a known trait. They don’t agree.

BULGARIAN STATISTICS (Mr. Kantchev, 1900)

Turks 499,204

Bulgarians 1,181,336

Greeks 228,702

Albanians 128,711

Wallachians 80,767

Jews 67,840

Gypsies 54,557

Servians 700

Miscellaneous 16,407

Total 2,258,224

SERVIAN STATISTICS (Mr. Gopcevic, 1889) [Recent Servian authorities avoid giving general figures or else, like Mr. Guersine, suggest a total for the Macedonian Slav population which approximates more closely to Mr. Kantchev's figures.]

Turks 231,400

Bulgarians 57,600

Greeks 201,140

Albanians 165,620

Wallachians 69,665

Jews 64,645

Gypsies 28,730

Servians 2,048,320

Miscellaneous 3,500

Total 2,870,620

GREEK STATISTICS (Mr. Delyani, 1904)

(Kosovo vilayet omitted)

Turks 634,017

Bulgarians 332,162

Greeks 652,795

Albanians

Wallachians 25,101

Jews 53,147

Gypsies 8,911

Servians

Miscellaneous 18,685

Total 1,724,818

But what happened before the balkans wars, something that you forget to said.

In early 1890's various Bulgarian groups were organized in the Ottoman empire advocating a more revolutionary program in Macedonia that would result in the Bulgarization of the area. One such group was IMRO (Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization) which was organized around 1893 and whose members included Gotse Deltchev, Damjan Grujev, Pere Tochev, Petar Pop Arsov, and other Bulgarians from Bulgaria and San-Stefano ``Macedonia''. This organization aimed at uniting ``Macedonia'', by any possible means, into a single entity.

In response to this, Macedonians(Greek and Billiteral speakers), with financial help from their kinship in then Greece and also from abroad, organized themselves and tried to protect the Greek-speaking and Bulgar-speaking Greek-Macedonian, and especially those living small villages, from Bulgarian abuses. Wherever this was not possible and especially in areas where Bulgars were the majority, as it was the case in the north and central part of today's FYROM, it was common to have a member of a family declaring himself a Bulgar and another one declaring himself a Greek. Whole Greek villages, when under pressure from Bulgars, used to declare themselves Bulgarian to avoid destruction from the Bulgars.

In the beginning of the 20th century, when the situation got worse, both sides (Greek and Bulgarian) went many times to extremes although one may observe that the Bulgarian side was mainly responsible for that. At the same time the consciousness of the few Serbs living in San-Stefano ``Macedonia'' (in today's FYROM) was also awakened and Serbia got involved into these rivalries as well.

The Balkan Wars erupted because of these rivalries.

The excesses of the Greek army began on July 4 with the first conflict at Kukush (Kilkish). A few days later the excesses of the Bulgarians at Doxato (July 13), Serres (July 11), and Demir-Hissar (July 7) were known and still further inflamed the anger of the Greeks. On July 12 King Constantine announced in a dispatch which reported the slaughter at Demir-Hissar that he "found himself obliged with profound regret to proceed to reprisals." A comparison of dates will show that the Greek "reprisals" had begun some days before the Bulgarian "provocation."

[Carnegie Endowment Report, pages 97]

As you see in a war nobody is an angel. This is the reason that nobody wants nationalistic ideas.  I ll stay in the lesson that mention the report:

The real culprits in this long list of executions, assassinations, drownings, burnings, massacres and atrocities furnished by our report, are not, we repeat, the Balkan peoples. Here pity must conquer indignation. Do not let us condemn the victims. Nor are the European governments the real culprits. They at least tried to amend things and certainly they wished for peace without knowing how to establish it. The true culprits are those who mislead public opinion and take advantage of the people's ignorance to raise disquieting rumors and sound the alarm bell, inciting their country and consequently other countries into enmity. The real culprits are those who by interest or inclination, declaring constantly that war is inevitable, end by making it so, asserting that they are powerless to prevent it. The real culprits are those who sacrifice the general interest to their own personal interest which they so little understand, and who hold up to theircountry a sterile policy of conflict and reprisals. In reality there is no salvation, no way out either for small states or for great countries except by union and conciliation.

[Carnegie Endowment Report, page 19]

We must Keep this in our mind. That any war there are victims and usually innocent victims

It is really a painful topic. The ethnic structure of Ottoman lands were unfortunately very complex and mixed. The Wilson laws, which ordered nations to dominate in lands where they were a majority couldn't work for the middle East and the Balkans because they were simply based on western ideology and ethnic.

Different societies, religious groups have lived together in much Ottoman cities from Bosnia to Iraq. That's why setting definate borders was impossible for any of these nations sharing these lands. This caused minorities and local authorities (such as the "miri" authorities around northern tigris) to conflict each other for ethnical domination, causing ethnic cleansing.

You can't set a definate border for Armenians because they were spread from central Anatolia to Georgia, but most cities (especially ones around euphrates) were multinational as seen in the map. Turks were spread from Macedonia and Albania to Northern Iraq but definate borders were nonexistant.

And in the British map you gave, Kurdish expansion is clearly exaggerated. Eastern lands of the empire were home to Armenians and Turks in general. Kurds were mostly around Tigris (Diyarbakir was the Northern lands, north of it- Harpot was mainly Turkish. East of it was mainly Armenian. the region around Euphrates was known to be mainly Turkish and south is Arabic (around Urfa and Mardin) until 60s when the main Kurdish immigrations to urban areas began to occur. East of Erzurum was mainly Armenian, and south of it too. But the region around Erzurum and Erzincan were a total mix where two societies had no ethnic boundaries at all. Izmir, was a dominantly Rum city until the city was burnt by the Greek army and the population exchanges.

Cities of modern Turkey:

The population of the vilayets of Erzurum and Van are given below:

The total population of the sanjaks of Bayburt, Malazgirt, Muþ, Bitlis, Van was 2,70,000. 365,000 was living under Russian invaded lands. The rest are around 1,710,000

The results of Ottoman official census, patriarch census and Lynch census shows us that,

Armenians- 1,150,000

Turks- 400,000

Nomadic Kurds- 80,000

Zaza and Dimbiliks- 35,000

Sun worshipper and Yezidi- 13,000

Gypsies- 3000

Rum and Jews- 5000

Assyrians- 14,000

And about the city of Diyarbakir in southeastern Turkey near Tigris:

Sanjak of Kharput, northwest of Diyarbakir, Sanjak of Ergani, Sanjak of Siirt:

The populations of ethnics in these cities of Çemiþkezek, Palu, and Siirt are below:

Armenian- 180,000

Turkish- 130,000

Nomadic Kurd- 40,000

Zaza- 2,300

Yezidi- 2000 Chaldean/Assyrian- 8000

These aren't my numbers, but numbers from archieves and Armenian patriarch.

I find at least pathetic to read selective copy/pastes from another nationalistic site  http://www.macedoniainfo.com/macedonia/ - (http://www.macedoniainfo.com/macedonia/ ) and obviously anti-greek, if we keep in mind some of the colorful messages the site has.

For example, "Macedonia is not Greek. The official Greek politics try to erase Bulgarian Macedonian Culture and History from Macedonia. " 

"Greece is an unworthy European Union Member - 26.02.1999"

"Modern "ethnic cleansing" against the macedonian minority of Greece"

In addition to that, the author decided not to post even the source of his copy/pastes, despite the forum policy but i dont wonder why anymore.

If I was on the same one-sided collection of articles i would simply post everything found from the diplomatic documents on Iliden uprising which is really enlightening about the activities of Bulgarian comitates against populations of Macedonia nomatter of ethnicity/religion. One sample of it you can read it here. 

i)

Note by the Imperial Ottoman Embassy in Paris to the French Foreign Office 

Paris, August 10, 1903
Source: French Foreign Office Archives,Turkey-Macedonia, vol 35, p. 230 
 
 
The Bulgarians gathered in large numbers at Kleisoura and its suburbs have occupied the villages of Djivarek in the Kesrie administrative region, have assasinated all the Muslim inhabitants, women and children, and burnt down their houses. They are currently fiercely attacking the remaining villages in the area, were they already captured a big number of inhabitants. Some of these poor people have been burnt alive. The greek and the muslim poulations are terrified after this terrible slaugtering.
 
In the suburbs of Monastir, Bulgarian bandits have burnt 8 barns, in 8 different farms, with all the cereals that had been stored there. These violent attacks, during which the muslim villages in the Resna and Persie regions have been attacked, have terrified the Muslims. In the Ochrida region the postman from Janina has been encyrcled by the Bulgarian bandits and a big number of items belonging to Muslims have been burnt by Bulgarian crooks.

or maybe this one

ii)
From Austrian consul August Kral to the head of the ( Foreign Office Count Agenor von Goluchowski

Monastir, March 11, 1903
Source: Austrian Foreign Office Archives,

Monastir
1903, vol 392

Hochkgeborener Graf, your Highness the Count

The Comitate with unspeakable audacity blackmails economically Bulgarians, Greeks, Wallachs, Christians and Muslims. In case of refusal to pay, the Christians are threatened with murder, and the rich, armed and guarded muslim landowners are threatened with the burning down of their fields. In gathering the money the comitates do not discriminate between the Christians, because, as they assert, their efforts aim to the amendment of the situation of all Christians of Macedonia. The amount of the money requested depends on individual income, but the Comitate is debatable in some special cases. The amount of the contributions varies between 5 and 100 Turkish pounds, some rare times even more. In the Perlepe region, where the Muslims are a minority, each and every Aga has to pay, the same for most Greeks ( i.e. the Wallachs) from Monastiri and the vlach villages, like Gopes, Mollovista, Tirnovo, Krushevo etc. The comitates have won over, often with by the means of threats, a number of families in the above  non-Bulgarian small towns. The comitates need such pied-a-terre in important small towns, that, overmore, being  non-Bulgarian appear less suspect to the Turks.
The continuing and phenomenal in pressure blackmails, have attenuated to the maximum the anxiety of the non-Bulgarian populations, mainly of the Greeks. Fear dominates everywhere. Noone dares to resist. In this state of terror anyone feels the lack of protection to which he is exposed because of the incompetence, the feableness and the corruption of the turkish administration. There is a strong desire for the regularisation of the situation, which is unbearable, and the need for a new, strong government. I have already stated that the population does not want reforms or autonomy, the majority of the Macedonians want nothing more than the fate of Bosnia.

You can go in circles and play the old childish game of "your grandfather killed more than my grandfather" but this really doesnt lead anywhere. Fact is there have been attrocities from all sides but blaming only one and turn a blind eye to the rest makes you lose all credibility.

The only thing i will agree is that the book of Anastasia Karakasidou is a great book for everyone to read.

Perseas I agree with you as about Karakasidou book.

In Greece we had a lot of war as about this book. But when I read  it , I realize that this book was and is against in any nationalistic behavior against of all sides. I ll stay in this

"They were not Slavs all the Slavphones of Macedonia"

[Introduction, page 68, Greek edition]

This quote from her describe many of the origin of the Slavspeakers in Macedonia

And I was wrong for the Bulgarian Turk. Your source was a choosen copy-paste from the  Carnegie Endowment Commision.

Originally posted by RomiosArktos @bg_Turk As far as i remember the Turkish Ottoman army commited  atrocities  in Bulgaria in 1876  and 10.000-12.000 Bulgarians are estimated to have died at that time.Maybe you should speak about them..

Yes, there was a rebellion in Bulgarian in 1876, which failed and the ottoman crackdown on it was especially brutal. It was called the April uprising. I studied it in history, and  I am not mistaken the title of the lesson was "Genocide against the Bulgarian People".

The brutality of the events of 1876 leas to an international outcry against the ottoman empire and were one of the reasons for the Russian intevention in 1878, when Bulgaria gained its independence. As a result of the Russian invasion, the Russian forces almost reached Isanbul, and around a million Turks were uprooted from their homes, hundreds of thousands perished.

The retaliation of the Ottoman state against the April Uprising was indeed brutal, but it did not have as a purpose to eradicate the bulgarian presence , on the other hand the act of ethnic cleansing undertaken by the greek regime in 1913 had as a purpose to assimilate or cleanse the slavic presence in the region:

Source: http://www.macedoniainfo.com/macedonia/cleansing.htm - http://www.macedoniainfo.com/macedonia/cleansing.htm

The effect of these actions were truely catastrophic for the Bulgarians in Macedonia.

Bulgarian refugees in 1913. More than 300,000 Bulgarians fled with the withdrawing Bulgarian army, due to the greek brutalities.

Bulgarian captives at Kilkis:

Dont make here Nacionalist Propaganda

In Macedonia never had greeks that over 1-2 %

In Macedonia Majority were only Albanians and Bulgarians, third majority were Turks but Greeks had very little in Manastir (Bitola)

In Manastir had over 55% albanians , today have 5%

Oh please, the lamest case is that the area was mostly ALBANIAN. Greeks have always had a major presence there, perhaps they were not outright majorities, but way more than 2%. Kosovo had only 2% Albanians as well,

I am not aware of any significant alabanian presence in Aegean Macedonia, but I think Albanians had quite a significant population in Southern Epirus.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4397470.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4397470.stm

NikeBG

absolutly bg_turk mention only the dark side of the Greece   at the Balkan war when:

• forget to mention the Turkish casulties specially in the Andrianopole and Thrace from the Bulgarian Army
• forget to mention the camps that opened with the cover of the Commision.At Salonica the Commission visited one of these camps, and made inquiries of the Islamic Committee, whose business it was to transport the refugees to Anatolia. They were Turkish emigrants. Some of them had left their villages several weeks ago; they came from all parts of Macedonia, from Soundja, Djoumaya-Bala, Nevrocope, Petritche, Razlogue, Tchakova, Demir-Hissar, Osmanie, Berovo, Radovitch. At the beginning of September, when the Commission made its inquiry, about 135,000 emigrants had passed through Salonica since the beginning of the second war. Each steamer starting for Anatolia carried some 2,500 bound for Mersina, Adalia or Iskenderoum.
• Forget to mention the 100.000 Greeks that left from Bulgaria in Macedonia.  While the 80,000 Bulgarian refugees are addressing their supplications to Sir Edward Grey, the telegraphic agency at Athens informs us that 100,000 others, Greeks by nationality, are fleeing from Bulgarian administration.
• He forget to mention the Bulgar Pomaks. Report said :One example of these forced conversions during the Balkan wars has become classic—that of the pomaks by the Bulgarians. The pomaks are a people of Bulgarian mountaineers, converted to Islamism by the Turks centuries ago. To the number of some 400,000 they inhabit the high plateaus of Northern Macedonia.
• And last all the article from him came from a nationalistic Bulgarian side.

The fire, which started in Basmane Quarter, was started by Greeks leaving the city after the victory of the Turkish national independence army.

Ok, if you search the forum for "Smyrna - fire" you'll find previous posts. More or less the Greek point is that Turk irregulars (Chets?) who entered the city first started the fire, under orders and plan from Turkish authorities/army. This is supported also by American missionaries in the city. I'm certain that Turks have a different opinion...

[QUOTE] More or less the Greek point is that Turk irregulars (Chets?) who entered the city first started the fire, under orders and plan from Turkish authorities/army [/QUOTE]

So, that's general Greek opinion about the fire of Izmir.

And the French officials claim that the Turkish authorities weren't to be blamed, and it also makes sense. After the lootings, the richest seaport of Turkey has thus perished. No authorities are suppoused to burn their own seaport, warehouses and stations after they regained the city, right?

 I don't know if i am going to be banned for this, but i really don't care after i have readen that stupinity. If you are not from greece then stop saying bullsh*ts. Do you know that those muslims enter by far easiest in greeks univercities that others Greeks. Do you know that stupit greek law is going against the other people that work harder and write in exams better that those muslims and can't enter the univercity of their choise??? Do you think they are not behaved very well??? What that means ????

Do you know that those muslims pass in the place of people that actually wrote in exams more!!!!. Well if you don't then take your filphy propaganda and begone.

But it depends. Of course a regular "local" wouldn't burn the house, but the invasion army definately would.

I know everything about them, don't worry. I've been to Iskeçe and saw the real picture myself. And please rephrase your statements after you calm down with a better grammer, because I really couldn't get anything from it.

Why would the Greek army burn the city?This is absurd.Besides the greatest part  of the city was inhabited by Greeks.
There are accounts by many neutral eye-witnesses that describe how the fire started,when the Turkish irregulars entered the Armenian quarters.
Perhaps we can start a thread about the destruction of Smyrna,because this is a bit irrelevant to this subject.

 First of all, i don't give a wooden nidle about the history in that topic, I am here to talk about the morden times. And i also believe that turks souldn't really cry about ethic cleansing etc.

 Second  "dude" what in the nice hells of Baator is Iskene????? If you have actually been in Greece i would expect to write the greek name (the true one) of that city.

 Second you know all about them? Oh RLY? When you was last here? In 1963-1974 ????? Let me tell you somethink i have been also in Alexandroupolis, Ksanthi and Komotini. The real picture isn't worst from other areas in the Greek statement. If there is lack in some areas is because of their lazinest. If they want factories to work then i sujest to stop pay the girls there 100 euro per month in order to wear that ungly think on their heads (i really, really don't care how you call it) and with those money in 5 years they will make a good factory. But no they just want to say :" We are muslims. allah will rain food,women and money".

 Also you claim that greek goverment don't tolarate them well? I challenge you to give me an example. But wait a minute they are in greek parliament, right? What about that filphy greek law that let them to enter  easiests in greek univercities?? Didn't you knew that?? If that fair for the other greeks?? And what's the excuse??? They don't know well the greek languadge and they are NOT INTEREST TO ENTER IN UNIVERCITIES. Got it "dude" or you need better grammar to understant it?.

 I enjoy good propagnda because it need skill to turn it down. But filphy and stupit propaganda as your it makes me just furrius....

 I will try to calm down, because if someone suffers here that's my keyboard. I just got furrius by the style: "i have been there once and i know everything" and those HUGE LIES. I never got any respect to people that's says: "i know everythink" and then start to say lies and expect the others to believe them

 It should be mentioned that when the New Turks came to power in Istanbul,it became clear to all non-Muslims  living in Macedonia that their goal was to assimilate these communities by force.Between 1908-1912 the assasination of priests and christian peasants had become a daily routine.The tortures in Thessalonica was also very widespread.There the Turks tortured those that they regarded suspicious,most of the times smashed their toes with clubs or gauged their eyes and things like that.All these things forced the Bulgarians,the Serbs and the Greeks to form the coalition against the Turks.
The Turkish violence between 1908-1912 was targeted against all non-Muslims,especially against christians of Macedonia. 

Why would the Greek army burn the city?

why did greek army burned half of western anatolia? reason should be  same.

Those 2 survived the war but my grandfathers older bro's 5 sons where died during that war, they have even made a song-like poet for one of his brave son (mehmet cavus) wich still my father knows it.

The VMRO ( is the one that published the following Bulgarian newspaper during the Macedonia  and Thrace (Greek terittories ) occupation at WW II

Also  VMRO and the Ohrana help the Germans for the Jews ethnical cleasing as  US consulant Berry  in Constantinople  mention(USNARA,874.4016/68, 25-3-1943)

Why would I write the Greek name of a Turkish city?

This is the real, true picture:

I hope the picture in the rest of Greece 'statement' isn't the same with it.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/greece/ - http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/greece/

Human rights report. Enough?

Why would Turks torture their loyal inhabitants of Salonika? The main majority was Turks before the Balkan wars and the population exchange as we all know. Salonika was a Macedonian origined city, inhabited mostly by Turks and then Jews.

Greeks also burned Afyon, Kutahya, Aydin and most of western Anatolia just like they burned Izmir. And the period we are talking about is later than the Greek claims of ethnic cleansing. Even the Greek president of the invasion time, Venezilos accepted it and apoligized for it.

But as Isocrates said, lets just discuss about the ethnic cleansing of Macedonia, and forget about this debate now.

 You believe that i am an idiot right? You are writting me all those craps and expect me to believe them?

1st) Turkish city in Greece!!!! Oh that must be a new!!! Well ladies and gentell man here is the biggest new in world today. Greece today have also Turkish cities. Look "dude" give me the real (greek) name of the city that you have actually been and leave out those little filphy propaganda tricks. Because if you actually believe that cities that have been rised by greeks are turkish and now are in greek controll then you have a reall nationalist problem. I sujest to go and hear some more patriotic songs..

2nd) If propaganda is forbiten here, then you must be banned and ashamed for that photo that you post here. If you want really to talk and discuss something them you shouldn't post photos that PROOF NOTHING. And what's your problem with that picture? The closed and abadon shop? HA i can show you such shops in every corner of Greece. The middle figer? or the title: safe sex? HAHAHA don't tell me that you go socked? OMG you are a puritanist or a mullah?

3rd) If you haven't notice it we live in 2006 by now not in 1000 AD  or in 600 AD.

 Well, you haven't answer my questions, you show me grap propaganda as usall... Well i waste my time with you. I really hate to speak with people that may still believe that Greece is turkish. Face it we got libarate and we have make more progress that you. Face it, accept it , why because is the truth.

 I am not really pround for my country. But i like it for one of her aspect: That turn her back to puritanish and Hyppocrisy of the muslin theocratic countries and people bahaviour.

 Bann me if i haven't follow a forum law, but you also should consider that propagandist here.

Continue  my post and the Bulgarian efforts of the Ethnical cleansing in Greek Macedonia I want to show photos from the WWII period and specially under the ocuppation from the fascists. The pictures show Slavmacedonians supporters of the Unity Idea of Macedonia (Greek, Serbia) in Bulgaria

Picture from Kastoria (Greek Macedonia). In the picture are Hitler anf Bulgarian king Borida. The people are Slavmacedonians supporters of Bulgarian VMRO

Picture from Monastirion (Vardar Macedonia) in FYROM.

Picture from Scopjie

The Bulgarians  transfered  a lot of public employees in order to change the demographic status in Greek Macedonia. Except the Greeks and Jews also and the billiteral Greeks (Slavphones Greeks) suffered a lot of these actions.

The effort continue and with the collapse of the axon via Commitern (Yugoslav and Bulgarian Communist  Partizans) during Greek civil war.

Where did you get this from?

Xanthi, Komotini, Thesellanoiki, Athens, Pireus and others that I am not able to spell right now.

I am not the one who should be ashamed for that photo.

By the way, if you idn't understand the meaning of the photo, let me clear it. It is a poster placed on the wall of a Turkish mosque in Iskeçe, as you call Ksanthi. It is no propoganda.

In Istanbul, there aren't much Rums left after the happennings of 1955.  In Izmir, there are still Rums around, but not much after the population exchanges between Turkey and Greece.

The number of Greeks left there isn't more than the number of Turks left in Crete and Rhodes after the population exchange. And of course in Midilli, the home of Cemal Pasha, one of the three leaders of CUP.

Never heard of that before.

Wasn't she the Armenian writer who claimed 100 thousand Greeks died in Izmir even an anti-Turkish person like George Horton claims the number of casualties were around 1000-2000? Really reliable.She also claimed two million Armenians suffered from the socalled Armenian genocide when it is proven that even the total Armenian population after the Treaty of Aya Stefanos was around 1,3 million.

Her ideas about Bosnians and the Bosnian genocide aren't more reliable than these.

George Horton and Mark Prentiss wrote about the Greek invaders arming the civilians and sending Turks out of the city, or according to some authors, simply massacring them.I suggest you to read the quotes from Paul Grescovich, the fire chief of the city. It is wrong to quote them all in here, but a small research would help.

Similarly, Aksehir near Konya was also burned by the Greek army. It is known that these cities were rebuilt after the Turkish liberation. That is why Venizelos paid compensation to Turkey in 1923 for the horrific atrocities committed against the Turkish civilians in western Turkey.

A few thinks about your photo. To be that's an abadon old building. The door is locked by a way that means it is abadon for year.... Is it really a mosque? Let that photo show nothing. Also the posters are from movies witch are played in cinema? What your problem with that? You hate movies? Then that's your problem not mine. I still believe that you are a puritanist.

 You really believe that ksanthi is a turkish city!!!!!!!!!!!!! Have you ever read a history book despite some ultra nationalist crap in you country!!!!! Lol Xanthi exit far before the word turk have been spoken in the world. So you are also an ultra Nationalist.

 So until now you show as a photo, that: a) Show and abadon building that may be a random building- you say that it is a mosque b) you say that those posters is an insult to the muslims there!!!!!??????. When you cannot not only understant teir purpose, but obviusly can't understant what they say. - Still you show us that as an insult.

 For those i mock you as an propagantish and i still believe that a moderator should consider your case.

 You still haven't say a word about the stupit greek law that tolarates the muslims student by far better that the others in a range that it is fasist against the non muslin thracian students. Or you want more laws like that one???.

 And one last question from me to you. Banshibanzurk wasn't that pillagers, villains,barbarians, assasins, that follow the turkish army in medieval times and kill, rape, torture and massacre the civilians in the town they conquer? Well you really deserve that name..

ps: Learn to respect art, or you are throm those dudes that sent people to assasin those who dare right something against islam......

This topic is in fact converted to "Greek - turkish relations between 1912-1922". Actually this is very interesting for me!

I think, that when somebody claims/asserds: "I really know what is happened somewhere", is good to show some map of that event (if the event can be mapped, of course).

 I am interrested in the events of The War between Greece and Turkey in 1919-1922 year. For the greek people this war is "The War for the liberating of Mikra Asia", but for the turkish people this war is " The Great War for the liberating of Turkey". I found some maps of this war in internet, and i will show them here:

This is one simplified general map of this war:

In dawn left corner of this map are shown the numbers of the transferred people after the war.

Map of the battle of Dumlupinar - 26 august 1922:

This is one turkish webpage with maps of this war: http://w3.gazi.edu.tr/~ertan/NUTUK/NUTUK20.htm - http://w3.gazi.edu.tr/~ertan/NUTUK/NUTUK20.htm

And this is one greek website with maps and explanations for this war: http://www.fhw.gr/chronos/13/en/general/maps/ - http://www.fhw.gr/chronos/13/en/general/maps/

I do, but this is not funny since I am not kind of the extreme nationalists who like to put porn photos on religious shrines, but some Greek fanatics are. Assimilation policies of Greece are still in progress.

"The government’s refusal to accept the minority’s Turkish identity has ranged from banning civic organizations bearing the adjective “Turkish” in their titles to prosecuting individuals who publicly identified the minority as “Turkish.”Greek courts have outlawed the use of the word "Turkish" to describe the Turkish minority. In November 1987, the Greek High Court affirmed a 1986 decision by the Court of Appeals of Thrace in which the Union of Turkish Teachers of Western Thrace and the Union of Turkish Youth of Komotini were dissolved. The court held that the word "Turkish" referred to citizens of Turkey and could not be used to describe citizens of Greece, and that the use of the word "Turkish" to describe Greek Muslims endangered public order. More recently, in August 1996, Mr. Rasim Hid, a teacher at a minority primary school, was transferred by the state-appointed secretary general of the region from the city of Xanthi to a mountain region of Rodopi for using the term “Turkish school” in a teachers’ meeting. In June 1997, twelve ethnic Turkish teachers were given a suspended sentence of eight months, pending appeal, because they signed a union document that included the term, “Turkish Teachers of Western Thrace.”They had been indicted under Articles 188 (“participating in an association the aims of which are contrary to criminal provisions”) and 192 (“inciting citizens to commit acts of violence upon each other”) of the Greek Penal Code."

Source: http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/greece/ - http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/greece/

This is not the whole issue now. The selection of "muftis" and the religious rights of Turks are still not respected.

The original article, different from the one in the website called "stradigma" in your reply where you presented it as a source, it says:

Article 38:

“All inhabitants...shall be entitled to free exercise, whether in public or private, of any creed, religion or belief, the observance of which shall not be incompatible with public order and good morals.” Article 40 further outlines the right of the Muslim minority to exercise their religion: “In particular, they shall have an equal right to establish, manage and control at their own expense, any charitable, religious and social institutions, any schools and other establishments for instruction and education, with the right to use their own language and to exercise their own religion freely therein.”

In the Treaty of Athens of November 1913, it was allowed muftis to be elected by the Muslim population. Greek Law No. 2345 of 1920, which regulated matters pertaining to the mufti and the vakiflar (private charitable foundations), did so as well. Under Article 6 of Law No. 2345, the muftis were to be elected by the Muslim population after a list of candidates had been approved by both the head mufti, the Ministry of Religious Affairs, and the governor general and/or prefect of the region.

Source: -Human Rights Watch-

But today, the muftis are picked by the Greek government. I wonder what would happen if the patrick of Fener was appointed by Turkey. We also shouldn't forget about the happennings of 1988-89. If you do a little research about the violations of fundemental human rights of ethnic Turks in Western Thrace, you'll find lots of more photos of attacked mosques instead of beautiful grass and clouds of love.

It is understood how much you know about your country. Anyway, it is called the island of "Lesbos".

A hard claim, and a hard resource though. From a website which sells "Turkish denial T-sirts"...

Well, if you dared to quote the rest of the statement, you would easily understand that I said the Armenian writer who claimed about 2 million Armenians suffering from a so called Armenian Genocide when the total Ottoman Armenian population was about 1,290,000. But anyway, fine way of distort my original point.

It shouldn't write the same statement in the treaty to make people realize that burning a couple of towns as a whole is a horrific thing, causing horrifing attrocities.

And the former Greek president of the time, Venizelos apoligized about these attrocities, so no need for further discussions.

bg_turk.........The given photo came from the biggest FYROM  nationalist writer. This man said  that every Bulgarian is Slavmacedonian. Are you agree with him ?

the Bulgarian........actually the Bulgarian Turks opened this thread by bring here some nice and copypaste argyments. And as you see even and Stefov bring us here in order to support the ethnical cleansing in Macedonia . Btw what is your opinion ?   And I need argyments beacuse Carnegie Report has and Greek letters, not only Bulgarian.

and Komotini or Xanthi belongs geogarphically and historically in Thrace. So I think the Greek-Turkish debate (plus the Minor Asia-Anatolia) is not consern the Macedonia

Originally posted by akritas the Bulgarian........actually the Bulgarian Turks opened this thread by bring here some nice and copypaste argyments. And as you see even and Stefov bring us here in order to support the ethnical cleansing in Macedonia . Btw what is your opinion ?

I don't understand your question. What is my opinion about what? Who is this Stefov charachter?

Your opinion as about the hall issue. Ethnic cleansing happened only from Greeks ? What happened and with  the your side ? Because you said For now all the hard facts are against them.

Why are you said much lesser from your side ? The failure of Illinden had led you to believe that the best away of gaining your objectives was the actual war. Ferdinard declared formal indepedence following the 1908 Young Turks Revolution, adopting the Tsar title and as well as coveting Macedonia he looked towrda to taking the grand prize of Constantinople. All these thinks also effected and the Slavmacedonian population against you. Allthese before the 1912.

After all Bulgarians were a majority in Macedonia. When the Bulgarian army came to Macedonia it had to deal with very few Greeks, unlike the Greek army, who had to murder a lot of Bulgarians. We can easily find photos with piles of sculls of Bulgarians murdered by the Greeks, but you can't find photos of mass killings of Greek civilians. There simply weren't many Greeks in Macedonia and that's why we cleansed so few.

But like I said - we should burry the hatchet.

Originally posted by bg_turk Partition of Macedonia: In 1912-1913 the Greek troops entered Aegean Macedonia as conquerors, although their history textbooks spoke about "liberation of Macedonia". These troops undertook a systematic ethnic cleansing of the conquered territories. In this respect, they preceded the Serbian racists in their actions in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Bulgarian people are hardly aware of the way the Greek Army "liberated" Macedonia. In that respect, however, there are international documents testifying that the Greek troops, on their way into Macedonia, were not considered liberators at all. In the face of the Bulgarian population there they saw an alien people, and they behaved as occupiers to it. On the explicit order of the newly crowned Greek King Konstantine, the town of Kukush was set on fire. In the villages of the same district 4725 Bulgarian houses were burnt down (Report of the Bulgarian Commission, p. 315). The Bulgarian houses were burnt in the villages of Negovan, Ravna, Bogorod; in the Doyran vilayet 11 villages were burnt, in Demir Hisar - 5 villages were burnt, in Seres district 5 villages were burnt, and in Gevgely region - 15 villages were burnt, etc. According to the final data of the Commission, the Greeks had set on fire 161 Bulgarian villages with a total of 16,000 houses (see p. 315 of the above mentioned report). The population was subjected to all possible violence in order to proclaim itself Greek. All Regulations of the occupational Greek troops were published in Greek, Turkish and Jewish. Bulgarian language did not exist. The Bulgarian population was compelled to sign declarations claiming it was Greek since ancient times, but called itself ,,Bulgarian" under the influence of the Bulgarian propaganda. Other declarations claimed that up till 1903 all were Greeks but since 1903-1906 they were forced by the Bulgarian commits to claim themselves Bulgarians. Both theses ended with the same declaration that now the liberating Greek Army had come, the population wanted to receive the benevolence of ,,our great Orthodox Greek church". The Greek eusons played the role of ,,apostles" and converted the villagers with the help of the bayonets. As an example can serve the villages in the region of Kostour: Gabresh, Drenoveni, Chernovitsa, Turie, Zagoricheni, Dambeni. In the villages of Breznitsa, Gorno and Doino Nestrame all the village people were put to prison and then where released after having proclaimed themselves Greeks (p. 197). The Muhammadans from the village of Cherveny were also proclaimed Greeks, although they spoke Bulgarian, and not Greek (p. 198). The Greek Army entered Voden in October 18-31. Ten days later the population was told: "Your tongues will be cut off if you speak Bulgarian." The property of the villagers was taken away. The churches and the schools were closed down. The Slavonic inscriptions were erased; the priests were beaten and expelled. All people of public power in the villages of Veshtitsa, Tsrmarinovi, Piskopia, and Arsen were arrested. They were told "if you want to be free, say that you are Greeks" (p. 199). As soon as the Second Balkan War broke out, over 200 Bulgarians from that region - priests, teachers, eminent figures and wealthy people - were arrested and sent to Salonica after assaults. In the beginning of July the whole population was compelled to sign the following declaration: "Threatened by the rebels and under the influence of the Exarchate propaganda, we became Bulgarians. Now we profess the true faith and proclaim our Hellenic nationality." The conduct of the Turkish Army on the territory of Aegean Macedonia was in no way different in its attitude towards the Bulgarians. In its comprehensive report comprising 410 pages, the authoritative international commission established by the Carnegie Endowment for studying the reasons for conducting the Balkan Wars presented ample and incontestable evidence for the ethnic cleansing and assaults done by the Greek Army on the territory of Macedonia which was ,,liberated", by them. Appendix No 51, p. 307 (in the English issue) presents 28 letters sent by Greek soldiers who did their military service in the 19th Regiment of the Seventh Greek Division. These letters were meant to be sent to the soldiers' families but the post was captured and so these letters became evidence for the Commission of Inquiry. Below are given some excerpts from such letters:   Letter No3                     &n bs p;          &n bsp;                     &nbs p;          &n bsp;                Attn. Mr. Sotir Papanidou                     &n bs p;          &n bsp;                     &nbs p;          &n bsp;                distr. Itinou, Trikala Reka Nesto, 12 July 1913 Here, in Rondu (Brodi) I took as captives five Bulgarians and a girl from Seres... I killed the girl. And I gouged the eyes of the Bulgarians while they were still alive.                     &n bs p;          &n bsp;                     &nbs p;          &n bsp;                Sincerely yours, Kosta Letter No5 The Bulgarian border, 11 July 1913 Dear brother Mitso,... we put to fire every Bulgarian village from Seres to the border...                     &n bs p;          &n bsp;                     &nbs p;          &n bsp;                Jonnah Hristo Tsigaridis Letter No9                     &n bs p;          &n bsp;                     &nbs p;          &n bsp;                Attn. Mr. Zaharia Kalivanis                     &n bs p;          &n bsp;                     &nbs p;          &n bsp;                Erfos - Milinotamos - Crates Weput to fire every Bulgarian village we occupied, and we killed all Bulgarians we met.                     &n bs p;          &n bsp;                     &nbs p;          &n bsp;                S. Z. Kalivanis Letter No11 The Bulgarian border, 12 July 1913 Even the cats could not escape wherever we passed. We put to fire every Bulgarian village on our way.                     &n bs p;          &n bsp;                     &nbs p;          &n bsp;                Your loving brother: corp. George Letter No13                     &n bs p;          &n bsp;                     &nbs p;          &n bsp;                Mr. Demetrius Tsigarida Hipati Fitiotis I was given 16 captives to take to the division. And I bought there only two of them. I killed the rest in the darkness.                     &n bs p;          &n bsp;                     &nbs p;          &n bsp;                Niko Theofilados Letter No15                     &n bs p;          &n bsp;                     &nbs p;          &n bsp;                Attn. Georgi Karka                     &n bs p;          &n bsp;                     &nbs p;          &n bsp;                1st Dept. Sanitary Corps                     &n bs p;          &n bsp;                     &nbs p;          &n bsp;                9th Division Argiroastro - Epir, 12 July 1913 Dear brother Georgi, On the King's orders, we put to fire every Bulgarian village. We rape every Bulgarian woman we meet.                     &n bs p;          &n bsp;                     &nbs p;          &n bsp;                Regards, Nikos Zarvas Letter No16 14 July 1913                     &n bs p;          &n bsp;                     &nbs p;          &n bsp;                Mr. Arisidi Tanasia Kampiati,                     &n bs p;          &n bsp;                     &nbs p;          &n bsp;                Municipality of Antama,                     &n bs p;          &n bsp;                     &nbs p;          &n bsp;                Trikala, Thessalia ... We put the villages to fire and we kill the Bulgarians - women and children.                     &n bs p;          &n bsp;                     &nbs p;          &n bsp;                Anastas Patros Letter No23                     &n bs p;          &n bsp;                     &nbs p;          &n bsp;                Anastas Patros                     &n bs p;          &n bsp;                     &nbs p;          &n bsp;                Independent Regiment                     &n bs p;          &n bsp;                     &nbs p;          &n bsp;                of Crates 12th Company Attn. Corp. M. N. Logiadi - Aestroviki - Epir We had a small combat near Strouma with refugees from Kukush and Lahna. Our guns smashed them into pieces on their way (while they were running away - author's note)                     &n bs p;          &n bsp;                     &nbs p;          &n bsp;                Anastas Patros In conclusion, the International Commission claimed: ,,The documents in the possession of the Commission allow to state that there has been a policy of assimilation of the Bulgarian population in Southern Macedonia. The methods of assimilation and physical extinction have been applied systematically and without any humanness" (p. 186). SOURCE: http://knigite.abv.bg/en/am/clean.html - http://knigite.abv.bg/en/am/clean.html The final days of the citys of Kukus levelled off by the greeks, its inhabitants ethnically cleansed and exterminated. You can find these letters and much more on the thnic cleansing of Macedonia in the following book (search it on Amazon): A Greek author also studies the ethnic cleansing. The study has provoked an extreme nationalistic backlash in Greece: From Library Journal One rarely encounters a scholarly book as disturbing as this provocative work, a study of ethnicity in the Greek province of Macedonia. It is so controversial that Cambridge University Press, fearing for the safety of its staff in Greece, refused to publish it. Having spent some time with villagers of the region, Karakasidou (anthropology, Queens Coll., CUNY) maintains that Macedonia is not exclusively Greek, as nationalists claim, but is instead a multiethnic, multicultural region experiencing the political and religious upheavals engulfing the rest of the Balkans. Karakasidou's obsession with the truth has brought her death threats, apparently from outraged Greeks. Her powerfully written book is a resounding statement of human courage, reminding readers that there is no substitute for honesty and critical thought. This superb book is highly recommended for all large social science collections.?John Xanthopoulos, Art Inst. of Fort Lauderdale, Fla. Copyright 1997 Reed Business Information, Inc. Book Description Deftly combining archival sources with evocative life histories, Anastasia Karakasidou brings welcome clarity to the contentious debate over ethnic identities and nationalist ideologies in Greek Macedonia. Her vivid and detailed account demonstrates that contrary to official rhetoric, the current people of Greek Macedonia ultimately derive from profoundly diverse ethnic and cultural backgrounds. Throughout the last century, a succession of regional and world conflicts, economic migrations, and shifting state formations has engendered an intricate pattern of population movements and refugee resettlements across the region. Unraveling the complex social, political, and economic processes through which these disparate peoples have become culturally amalgamated within an overarchingly Greek national identity, this book provides an important corrective to the Macedonian picture and an insightful analysis of the often volatile conjunction of ethnicities and nationalisms in the twentieth century. "Combining the thoughtful use of theory with a vivid historical ethnography, this is an important, courageous, and pioneering work which opens up the whole issue of nation-building in northern Greece."--Mark Mazower, University of Sussex  SOURCES: http://www.macedoniainfo.com/macedonia/ - http://www.macedoniainfo.com/macedonia/

http://www.macedoniainfo.com/macedonia is - http://www.macedoniainfo.com/macedonia is one of those ultra-nationalistic hate Bulgarian websites. Anyone can see it is apparently a greek-hating site having to do nothing with a source that could be called 'an unbiased source'. Only Bulgarian ultra-nationalists such as yourself appear to have them in any value.

[QUOTE] Nationalist.. big word from someone that presents a barn or a abandoned warehouse as a mosque[/QUOTE]

A warehouse with minarets and a dome. That was news. Actually that is a photo took from the historical mosque in the Greek city Nafplio. Sex movies are shown in the mosque since it has been converted into a cinema.

Unfortunately, you are right about yourself.

Well, it contradicts to the article 38 of treaty of Lausanne and the Treaty of Athens of 1913, so Greek justifications aren't better than "cheap" here...

Of course his attitude had to be different than the Turkish side, since he was in the position of invader, and Turks were in the position of liberation. So the one who really needed to apoligize was Venezilos.

They did not commit any attrocities, but if you mean the attrocitities of Greek soldiers, it is wartime and natural for th invading soldiers being attack by the liberation forces.

If you mean the sehitliks of Afyon Karahisar, I don't see anything offensive with building graveyards for the martyrs, people who lost their lives because of the Greek invasion.The Great Offensive began in Afyon, so it is natural that a lot of martyr graveyards and monuments exist in the city.

And these are definately not more provocative than the monuments of Athens and other cites of Pelepponese, Missolonghi etc. The thing ends up in the education of children from the first step, and it is known what kind of nationalistic bombardment the youth of Greece is facing,wearing their "Greek soldier suits" every year in the aniversary of 1829, walking in the streets.

Anyway, if you want to discuss further, go and open a topic about it, because the current topic is: "The ethnic cleansing of Macedonia".

You massacered thousands and call us murderers. The murderer is calling his victim a murderer. You call us terrorists, but haven't presented a single evidance supporting your nonsence. But we can provide an abundance of evidanse about Greek atrocities. When we present this evidanse you either ignore it or call it "one sided" and carry on propagating lies.

How much more evidance do you need?

But like I said before - we should burry the hatchet. 

No one payed any attention to my peace offering.

The cutting-copy paste is the worst argyment regarding to make a conclusion as about the opinion of this commitee.

We both know that this is rubbish. If the Bulgarians were a minority in Macedonia how could they impose the Exarchate to 80 % of the inhabitants. 80 % were Bulgarians and supported both the Exarchate and VMRO. The remaining 20 % were Greeks and no one forced them to join the Exarchate. And as for the terrorists - the Greek government wes sendind organized gangs into Macedonia to terrorize the local Bulgarian populaton and to agitate it for the Megali Idea. But since the Greeks were a minority and these gangs had very little support from the local population (only buy the Greeks) they didn't achieve anything, except sparking a bloody war with the VMRO and the few pro-Serb agents.

The VMRO was not a terrorist organization, but a revolutionary movement from the people, buy the people, for the people. The Greek gangs were terroristic.

All this is true. God knows why we hated each other so much. I don't care who started it. It's time to finally make peace.

P.S. Page 186.