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Brief History of Yugoslavia

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Modern History
Forum Discription: World History from 1918 to the 21st century.
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Topic: Brief History of Yugoslavia
Posted By: Jay.
Subject: Brief History of Yugoslavia
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2005 at 16:15

The Yugoslavia which emerged from World War II was a six republic federation. From north-west to south east, the political entities were Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia.

At various times during the past millennium, the country know known as Yugoslavia, and its surrounding countries, straddled the borders of three faith groups: Islam, Orthodox Christianity, and Roman Catholicism. Various sources give conflicting stories of the area's past. The following is our initial attempt at describing the history of Yugoslavia. Although this data came from usually reliable sources, we are uncertain about its reliability. We will attempt to improve this in the near future:

- Prior to 6th century CE: Kosovo and the surrounding area were occupied by the Illyrian people, who became present-day Albanians. 
- 6th & 7th centuries CE: The Serbs arrived in Kosovo and the surrounding area.
- 12 & 13th century: Rastko (1174-1236 CE) created the first Serbian national church. After a brief alliance with Rome, the church became part of Orthodox Christianity.
- 14th century: The Ottoman Turks conquered what is now Yugoslavia at the Battle of Kosovo in the Field of Blackbirds in 1389 CE. Serbian Prince Lazar could have avoided the conflict by agreeing to pay tribute to Murad I, the Turkish Sultan. However, Lazar and his army rejected this option. They swore the Kosovo Covenant. This committed them to fight to the death of the last man rather than submit to control from a foreign power. Islam was introduced by the Turks during their occupation.
- 15th century: Muslim influence was extended to Bosnia-Herzegovina. Islam expanded accordingly.
- 16th century: Slovenia and Croatia came under the influence of Austria. Roman Catholicism was introduced. Thousands of Serbs were forcibly relocated to the Croatian border with Bosnia.
- 19th century: After Russia defeated the Turks, Serbia was granted independence. But Kosovo and Macedonia remained under the control of the Turks. The Austro-Hungarians got control of Bosnia-Herzegovina and retained Croatia and Slovenia.
- Pre-World War II: With the disintegration of the Austro-Hungarian empire, the collapse of the Ottoman empire, and the conclusion of World War I, Yugoslavia became a kingdom under King Alexander. His dictatorship included Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia. A fascist separatist movement, the Ustase, was established by the Croats to promote their independence.
- World War II: The Nazis over-ran Yugoslavia. The country was partitioned. The fascist Ustashe (Croatians; primarily Roman Catholics) established a puppet Nazi state, which included Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. Large numbers of Serbian Orthodox believers, Jews and Roma (Gypsies) were exterminated. The killings were perpetrated by the Nazis, the Ustashe, and occasionally by the Bosnian Muslims.  The 21st division of the German Waffen SS was recruited almost entirely from ethnic Albanians. "In the winter of 1944-45 it carried out the last ethnic cleansing exercise of the war. It did this in Kosovo, against the Serbs." 3 During the war, Jews were relatively safe in Bosnia. The Bosnian Serbs largely protected them from the Holocaust. A civil war followed World War II; as many as 1 million Yugoslavs were killed.
- 1945 to 1980: Joseph Tito unified the 6 republics into a communist dictatorship, independent of Russia. He was able to suppress religious and cultural rivalries among the Roman Catholics, Serbian Orthodox and Muslims during his lifetime. But, as noted in the quotation at the start of this essay, no concerted attempt was made by the political or religious leaders to settle centuries-old religious hatreds. An opportunity was missed that might have avoided (or reduced) ethnic cleansing and genocide during the 1990's.

Tito angered the Serbs by granting autonomy to the north-eastern province of Vojvodina and the southern province of Kosovo in 1974.

- 1980's: Tito died in 1980. In 1987, while investigating allegations that the minority Serbs in Kosovo were being attacked by the ethnic Albanian majority, Slobodan Milosevic had promised his fellow Serbs that "No one will ever beat you again." Milosevic quickly became a Serbian hero, and was able to force changes to the Yugoslav constitution through its Parliament in 1989. 2 This terminated the autonomous status of the provinces of Vojvodina (in the north) and Kosovo (in the south). Milosevic "removed Kosovo's autonomy, established direct Serbian rule over the province, expelled the Albanians from the Kosovo parliament, the state bureaucracy, and state owned industries, and closed the state-run school system and most of the medical system to them." The Albanians in Kosovo became a majority with few rights in their own country. Leading Kosovo intellectual, Ibrahim Rogova, promoted a nonviolent approach to resolve the system of Apartheid under which they were persecuted.
- 1990's: The unravelling of Yugoslavia accellerated.
- 1990: The north-west province of Slovenia voted the Communist party out of office. Slovenia won its independence from the rest of Yugoslavia in 1991.
- 1991: Croatia made a bid for independence. Croats and Serbs started a civil war. The U.N. assisted in establishing a cease-fire, starting in 1992.
- 1991: Macedonia declared independence. It was admitted to the UN under a provisional name in 1993, and was recognized by the U.S. and Russia in 1994.
- 1992: Bosnia declared independence. A civil war among the Croats, Serbs and Muslims erupted. The world was horrified by new images of starving prisoners in concentration camps. The civilian population was heavily targeted by armies on all sides. Hans Küng and Karl-Josef Kuschel commented: "Similarly, there is no doubt that the Catholic and Orthodox churches in particular have identified themselves all too much with their own political leadership in the most recent controversies and not made a commitment for peace openly, opportunely and energetically." 1
- 1995: The Dayton Accord, brokered by the U.S., established a fragile peace in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Representatives from Kosovo were excluded from the talks. It probably would not have been possible to get the principal parties in the Bosnian conflict to the Dayton bargaining table if Kosovo was on the agenda. The conflicts in Kosovo was not discussed; "Rugova's nonviolent strategy lost its credibility." 2
- 1996-7: Following the Dayton Accord, many ethnic Albanians in Kosovo decided that their nonviolent approach was getting nowhere. The Kosovo Liberation Army began a guerrilla campaign.
1998: The situation had become critical. The Serb army destroyed several villages in Kosovo in order to evaluate Western reaction. The West responded with "rhetoric and...meetings," 2  but no credible threats. The Yugoslavian government then escalated the conflict.

Yugoslavia has been gradually disintegrating since the death of Tito. The country lost much of its territory and population during the 1990's as Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia and Bosnia-Herzegovina achieved independence. As of 1999-APR, Yugoslavia consists of only four provinces: Vojvodina, Serbia, Montenegro and Kosovo. Montenegro has a large degree of local autonomy. The government and Serbian people of Yugoslavia are totally opposed to losing any more territory to independence or autonomy movements. This has recently led to a massive civil war in Kosovo, and a (currently) lower-scale program of ethnic cleansing in Vojavadina.

Quote:

"...the peace negotiations between the Orthodox [Christian] Serbs, the Catholic Croats and the Muslim Bosnians had collapsed again. And there is no doubt that the religions that are so involved here had neglected in the period of more than forty years since the Second World War to engage in mourning, honestly confess the crimes which had been committed by all sides in the course of the centuries, and ask one another for mutual forgiveness....I think there can be no peace among the nations without peace among the religions!" Hans Küng and Karl-Josef Kuschel, commenting in 1993 on conflict within the former Yugoslavia. 1




Replies:
Posted By: Jay.
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2005 at 16:16

Maps of the Balkans, Yugoslavia and Kosovo:

balkans.gif (26150 bytes)

yugo.gif (23757 bytes) koso.gif (21613 bytes)



Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2005 at 16:47
The Ottoman info is pretty flawed though.  At the battle of Kosovo Polje only Serbia - a kingdom with no formal king - had been subjected to vassalage to the turks.  The Bosnian king himself had declared himself king of serbia around that time and there were two kings himself and the serbian prince.  The Bosnian kingdom did not fall until 1463 and its captial city not until 1525. Furthermore, Croatia which had been a part of the Hungarian kingdom did not fall untill around that time either. That is more like the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries as opposed to serbia in the fourteenth.  Serbia is not the only part of jugoslavija

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Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2005 at 18:03
For additional info and a slightly different view, especially on 20th century Yugoslavia, see this older thread:

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4364&PN=3 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4364&PN= 3

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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2005 at 18:09
I'd agree with most of what was written here, except one part related to the holocaust.

Jews were certainly not safe in Bosnia, more than 80 per cent of Bosnia's Jews were killed. And they were saved by no side in particular as they had fairly equal relations with all people, but as an aside note - 27 of Bosnia and Herzegovina's 34 "Declarations of Righteousness" issued to Bosnian citizens for saving Jews, or Jewish heritage, during the holocaust went to Bosniaks.


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Posted By: Raider
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 04:23

The history of medieval Croatia is completely missing from this scheme.

Originally posted by ill_teknique

The Ottoman info is pretty flawed though.  At the battle of Kosovo Polje only Serbia - a kingdom with no formal king - had been subjected to vassalage to the turks.  The Bosnian king himself had declared himself king of serbia around that time and there were two kings himself and the serbian prince.  The Bosnian kingdom did not fall until 1463 and its captial city not until 1525. Furthermore, Croatia which had been a part of the Hungarian kingdom did not fall untill around that time either. That is more like the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries as opposed to serbia in the fourteenth.  Serbia is not the only part of jugoslavija
More accurately Croatia was part of the Hungarian realm, but not the kingdom.



Posted By: Jay.
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 18:52
Originally posted by ill_teknique

.  Serbia is not the only part of jugoslavija


You're saying I didn't mention any other regions of Yugoslavia, but Serbia?


Posted By: Achilles
Date Posted: 18-Dec-2005 at 20:12
you also forgot the mass murder of thousands of Ethnic-Germans(Danube-Schwabians) in the area by Tito and his Government after World War 2

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Der Erste hat den Tod,
Der Zweite hat die Not,
Der Dritte erst hat Brot.

Fur immer frei und ungeteilt
-always free and undivided-



Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 18-Dec-2005 at 20:28
Originally posted by Jay.

Originally posted by ill_teknique

.  Serbia is not the only part of jugoslavija


You're saying I didn't mention any other regions of Yugoslavia, but Serbia?


im saying they are the only part that fell in the 14th ct. bosnia was an independent kingdom that did not fall until 1463


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Posted By: Mohamed
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2005 at 21:08

 

As Jay wrote Quote:

"At various times during the past millennium, the country know known as Yugoslavia, and its surrounding countries, straddled the borders of three faith groups: Islam, Orthodox Christianity, and Roman Catholicism. "

Quote:

"...religious identity has been present constantly in the antagonisms that have fragmented the Balkans for centuries - setting neighbor against neighbor, Muslims against Orthodox Christians, and Orthodox Christians against Western Christians..." 20

 

I too would like to build on the facts of these religious in Yugoslavia:

Yougoslavia's problems in the 1990's were due to the conflicts between  three faiths: the Orthodox Cristians who were known as the Serbs, the Roman Catholics who were known as the Croats, and the Muslim Bosnians.

Bosnians, were converted in large groups by the Ottoman Empire. Albania also largly Muslim populated country. Bosnia's mass conversion was a bit of a mystery. Bosnia was a country that was dedicated to the religion of Christianity, even a church that was out of the reach of Catholic and Orthodox Churches was created in Bosnia in the 11th century. The religion was a little unstable when the 15th century raid of the Ottoman's occured.The Ottomans were not interested into converting the Christian people that they governed into Muslims. Scholars dismissed the facts that the migration of Muslims to Bosnia after the Turks raided it could have had an influence on it.  Later, the Turks found out that there was very little travel there at all. The conversion was due to the Bosnians who already converted to Islam spreading the faith to other Bosnians. The conversion was very steady because from the years 1468-1469, the Cristians were outnumbering the Muslims by more than 115-20 to 1. But the Muslim faith kept on growing. In the year 1485 the number of muslims were swelling greatly, but the Cristians were still outnumbering them 2 to 1. The muslim faith kept on growing untill the 1600's were Bosnia was a country the mostly populated by Muslims.

The Serbs were introduced to Christianity shortly after they traveled to the Balkans (which is a geographical term for the area of south-eastern Europe). This conversion happened before an event called the Great Schism. The Great Schism caused the Cristian Church to split in to two divisions: The Latin speaking Roman Catholics and the Greek-speaking Eastern Orthodox. With the splitting of this great religion was the splitting of the Serbs. Some converted to the church of the Eastern Orthodox, and some converted to the church of the Roman Catholics. Saint Sava who in the 13th century was the first Archbishop of Serbia, and was also the brother of the first serbian King: Stefan Prvovencani, helped to establish the Eastern Orthodox Church as an independant church on the year 1219. Their current language is: Serbian, and Church Slavonic. The current population of Serbs is about 15 million.

The Roman Catholics in Yugoslavia also had a large population, almost 7 500 000 catholics. The were mainly Croats, Solvenes,  Hungarians,and Albanians. They were once one with the Eastern Orthodox Church, but the separated due to the Great Schism. The Roman Catholic Church in Yugoslavia had 8 archbishoprics, 13 bishoprics, 2702 parishes, 182 monasteries, 415 convents, 4,100 priests, 1,400 monks, and 6,600 nuns.

These three religions had a major impact on the history of Yugoslavia. They will leave and imprint on the Balkans.

 



Posted By: the Bulgarian
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 04:41

What were the relations between Mislim and Christian Bosnians back then? Before the country was 100 % Muslim how did Christian Bosnians accept their compatriots' conversion? In Bulgaria Muslimised Bulgarians (Pomaks) were mistrusted and still live pretty much isolated. Some Bulgarians perhaps even tend to view them as traitors, but this is not justified, because in Bulgaria the conversion to Islam was forceful. So how were things in Bosnia?



Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 05:02

Bulgarian so why didnt  others  converted?Greeks,bulgarians, serbs, armenians but only a small minority of  bulgarians? what type of forcefully conversion is this? It let main part of  population to live his  old religion, and  only forcefully convert a minority.

By the way, when  main conversion is happening ottomans were ruling bosnia, I dont think christians  had much voice, against this conversions.

 



Posted By: the Bulgarian
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 05:17
The others didn't convert, because the Ottomans didn't force them to. And they didn't force them to, because it wouldn't be profitable. Muslims had very little taxes, Christians - a lot. If everybody becomes Muslim who is going to pay taxes? The Ottomans needed only a small number of Pomaks to divide the Bulgarians. Divide and conquer, as they say. But the Bosnians for some reason decided to convert voluntarily and the Ottomans couldn't deny them that, although it wasn't much for their benefit. The Bulgarians simply turned out better Christians than the Bosnians. They held on to their religion no matter the hardship. Many people were executed in the Rhodope mountains (where the Pomaks live) for not wanting to convert.


Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 05:32

bulgarian ottomans  had different tactics for divide and conquerer thing, and  It  is not conversion, they had mostly mass exiled the rebellions.Specialy Turkish rebellions. They had already orthodox church at their hand, and  this muslim bulgarians not have enough number or power to divide bulgarian  nation. If their aim was this, they should convert  more bulgarians.

 

most of bosnians and albanians converted, but not even a minority of bulgarians didnt converted  by  peacifully? is this sensible?

I  think, Instead of finding a reason for their  so-called guilty like "yeah they converted, but they were forced to it. So they are innocent", You should accept them as Muslim bulgarians. Convertion is not a guilt. If your people dont accept this, a most weird asimilation would happen, This bulgarian  muslims would be turkified, at a bulgarian ruled country.

And If I am not wrong, already some of them call themself as Turk. You should learn something from albanians, I dont think any  muslim albanian refuse christian ones, and I dont know much albanian who call themself as greek.(most probably If you call them as greek, you would just get a punch)

.



Posted By: the Bulgarian
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 05:53

Mortaza, my knowledge on this matter by far excedes yours. A man is a product of his upbringing. You tend to view the Ottomans as peacefull rulers, and have begun to prove me this even before I've said otherwise. I'm not accusing them of anything. I don't care how the Pomaks were converted. It hapened 600 years ago.

But you said something very true. Sometimes it's hard for Bulgarians to except their Muslim compatriots and they are becoming increasingly Turkified. I'm speaking for those in the Rhodope mountains. They are pretty isolated there. The ones in Southwestern Bulgaria live among the Christian Bulgarians and are slowly converting to Christianity once more. I think there's a dangerous process going on in the Rhodopes. I've heard all sorts of stories about radical islamist missionaries preaching there. Most people really don't know what's going on in there. The state should really do something about the integration of these people, it's a shame how Bulgarians are being devided.



Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 06:05

again you are talking about "The ones in Southwestern Bulgaria live among the Christian Bulgarians and are slowly converting to Christianity once more."

you  should accept them with  their religion.  Converting christianity should not be a sign of integration.

 

 



Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 14:07
Originally posted by Mortaza

again you are talking about "The ones in Southwestern Bulgaria live among the Christian Bulgarians and are slowly converting to Christianity once more."

you  should accept them with  their religion.  Converting christianity should not be a sign of integration.


I agree with Mortaza.

Bulgarian, Islamic associations in Bosnia and Herzegovina have formed significant partnerships with other associations in the Balkans - the Bosniak National Council of Serbia, Islam Montenegro, Croatian Bosniak Association, Bulgarian Islamic Congress, etc.

I remember an expose they did on OBN about Islamic life in Bulgaria and the picture they painted was one of expansion, so much so that the Bulgarian government is trying to counter the speed at which Islam is expanding - especially in the capital city, Sofia.

Sofia's main mosque is one of my favorites in the Balkans. I just love the colors - there's nothing red, or anything like this, in Bosnia.




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Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 14:52
"Prior to 6th century CE: Kosovo and the surrounding area were occupied by the Illyrian people, who became present-day Albanians. ".....Albanians are not Illyrian

The Albanian racism towards the neighbours is based on historical falsifications
Stanford University

Vitomir Dolinski: An interview with the persecuted albanian academic prof. Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich

The Albanian racism towards the neighbours is based on historical falsifications

VD: - You are regarded as a unique, albanian Mandela, but also as a political prisoner-record holder on the Balkan. For the insufficiently informed, at the beginning, tell us briefly about this?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - In former Yugoslavia I was sentenced two years strict imprisonment, allegedly for propaganda against the socialism and the “brotherhood and unity”. After I served the punishment to the last day in the jail Idrizovo, wishing to escape to the Soviet Union I got stuck in Albania with which the USSR exactly those days severed its diplomatic relations. After the ten-year internment I was arrested by the albanian authorities and sentenced 43 years of a most monstrous imprisonment, again allegedly for antigovernment propaganda, in possession of some revolver without license, preparing to escape and for insulting the investigator. Thus, in total I am sentenced 45 years, of which 37 for antigovernment propaganda, with which I think that I am the most heavily sentenced political prisoner on the Balkan and maybe I am a unique world record holder. Actually, if it wasn’t for the (political) changes in Albania I would probably have still been in jail today. To this sentence needs to be added the severed marriage in Yugoslavia, in which fortunately I didn’t have any children and also the second marriage, in Albania, in which I had two children. During the whole time of my incarceration, not only that I wasn’t allowed to see my children, but I didn’t even know if they were alive. No one was allowed to visit me, or to give me a piece of bread. Not even the other prisoners. Those who did that were punished and the poet Gani Shkudra, who came to see me, not only that they didn’t allow him to see me, but in front of the jail, on the spot, they arrested him and sentenced him with 10 years imprisonment, allegedly for political propaganda. The only transgression attributed to him in the accusation is recorded as: “he had gone to the jail Burel to see the public enemy Kaplan Resuli and brought him bread”. While I was languishing in the infamous jail Burel, ten times they skinned me alive, literally, wanting from me to abandon my yugoslavian (montenegrin) citizenship, the yugoslavian (montenegrin) nationality, my ideals, even my children. They were forcing me to declare myself an Albanian, not only as citizen, but in nationality (ethnicity). Several times they attempted to liquidate me, even after I was released from jail, three times they have attempted to assassinate me – twice in Tirana and once in Geneva. The Albanians themselves, not only my friends, but even the others who were antagonistic towards me, while I was in my jail cells, pronounced me an albanian Mandela. Even my most open adversary, the albanian writer Ismail Kadare, those days, the beginning of the nineties, in his attempts to befriend the european circles and Amnesty International who were involved in my freeing, did not shirk from naming me a martyr and a hero of Albania..... more on the link below.

http://www.stanford.edu/~cakarz/articles/KaplanResuli-englis h.pdf

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When your heart is empty,your
mind is worth nothing.
anonimus


Posted By: the Bulgarian
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 15:20
Originally posted by Mortaza

again you are talking about "The ones in Southwestern Bulgaria live among the Christian Bulgarians and are slowly converting to Christianity once more."

you  should accept them with  their religion.  Converting christianity should not be a sign of integration.

 

 

I'm not saying that they are being assimilated by force. It's simply a logycal process - when very little Muslims live among numerous Christians they slowly get assimilated. In mixed marriages when a Muslim woman marries a Christian man the children are Christian. I have two friends with Muslim mothers, one of them is 50% Turkish,  from his mother's side. And as for the Rhodopes, I'm expressing  concern, not because these people aren't Christians (I'm an atheist), but because by living in isolation they are becoming hostile to the rest of the Bulgarians. They begin feeling closer to Turks than to Bulgarians. And I think it's a shame that Bulgarians turn against other Bulgarians, we are the same blood.

P.S. I thought you Communists didn't care about religion, Mortaza. 



Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 02:55

Bulgarian, I am not communist. Lol, Infact my  Turkish friends call me as fundementalist. and I care religion more than everything.

Infact what I am saying is  totally different, I am not saying you have forcefully asimilating minorities, Infact Bulgaria is most tolerant country  in  balkain against minorities.

There is a problem at balkain, for them,(and  us)  If someone change his  religion, he is no more accepted as member of nation. It  is not different at turkey, greece or another  country.when  we are accepting greek  or armenian muslims or pomaks as one of us, we sent turkish christians to  greece.

Telling this  muslim bulgarians converting back just mean(acording to me), they  are turning their nation back, this is what I understand. Sorry for misunderstanding.

For  Turks, interestingly they are loyal  to bulgarians. They dont care much to joining with  Turkey.

 

 

 



Posted By: the Bulgarian
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 03:19

Originally posted by Mortaza

Bulgarian, I am not communist. Lol, Infact my  Turkish friends call me as fundementalist. and I care religion more than everything.

Sorry, I've mistaken you with Kotumeyil.

Originally posted by Mortaza

For  Turks, interestingly they are loyal  to bulgarians. They dont care much to joining with  Turkey.

Noone is speaking of border changes here, but of spiritual and national cohesion. The Pomaks are in noman's land, especially in the past, because the Turks didn't trust these new Muslims too much either. They called them dionme (turned, converted). They weren't trusted neither from the Bulgarians, neither from the Turks. The Bulgarians suspected them of allying with the Turks on the basis of their common faith, the Turks suspected them of double games with the Bulgarians on the basis of their common ethnicity. But today there's no doubt that Pomaks are genuiune Muslims and in my opinion are more excepted by Turks and other Muslims. And what's this about Christian Turks? Never heard of such a thing in Turkey. Please, do tell.



Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 03:32

There were christian Karaman Turks at middle anatolia, at population exchange, they were sent to greece.

 



Posted By: the Bulgarian
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 03:34
How did they become Christians and how many of them were there?


Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 05:34

Karamanlides are a Turkish-speaking ethnic group that are of Orthodox Christian faith.

They numbered seveal hundred thousand and lived in the Karaman region of Turkey (in the Central Anatolia) and their origin is rather obscure: they could be either Orthodox Greeks that adopted Turkish language or Turks that converted to Christianity. They wrote the Turkish language with the Greek alphabet.

In the population exchanges between Greece and Turkey (1923), Turkey and Greece decided to exchange population based on religion, rather than on language, so all Muslims of Greece were deported to Turkey, while all Orthodox Christians of Turkey were deported to Greece.

Following this treaty, Greek-speaking Muslims (such as the Epirus and Cretan Muslims) were sent to Turkey and all Turkish-speaking Christians (including the Karamanlides) were sent to Greece.

The Karamanlides had no easy time in their new country, as they did not speak Greek, and during the dictatorship of Ioannis Metaxas, usage of Turkish in public was forbidden.

Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karamanlides - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karamanlides "
 
 

The Karamanlis were Orthodox Christian Turks who came from central Turkey, and many of them were deported to Greece after the World War I.

In 1924 Papa Eftim started to conduct the liturgy in Turkish, and quickly won support in the new Turkish Republic formed after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. They claimed that the Ecumenical Patriarcate of Constantinople was ethnically centered and favored the Greek population. Being excomunicated, Eftim called a Turkish ecclesial congress that elected him Patriarch in 1924. However most of the Turks Orthodox in Turkey and Greece remained affiliated with the (Greek) Ecumenical Patriarcate of Constantinople. A notable exception is the Turkish Orthodox community in USA, where 20 churches organised the Turkish Orthodox Church in America in 1966, under the Archbishop Civet Kristof (an African-American physician Christopher M. Cragg), but the 1980's diminished drastically. Currently there are three churches in Istanbul and about 500 followers, most of them Karamanli and Gagauz Turks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karamanli_Turkish_Orthodox_Church - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karamanli_Turkish_Orthodox_Chur ch

couldnt  find much knowledge,  their number is unknow.(they  were counted as  christian, not turk). Most  probably converted at selcuk times.
 
 
I heard  they even helped independence  war, but this didnt help them much. 
 
 


Posted By: Jay.
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 11:59

Ottomans didn't FORCE Bosnians to convert to Islam..But, since back then Bosnians (Serbs, Croats) were very poor the Ottomans offered them: food, drinks, land, etc to convert. Most families didn't have enough food to feed their children, so they had to accept.



Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 12:02


Yes, the most powerful state in the Balkans at the time couldn't feed its own people.

Gazi Husrev-bey took years to defeat the remnants of the Bosnian Kingdom. We outlasted Greece and Serbia by more than a century.

And the skeletal remains from this area (see Kulin thread) showed Bosnians were healthy, relative free from disease, and had long life expectancies for the time.


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Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 12:27
Mila i'm gonna give you some free advice-Learn day by day... In 1459 Mohammed II put an end to the sovereignty of these two rulers. Servia was formally incorporated into the Turkish Empire and was divided into pashalics. Many Servian families were destroyed, many others fled to Hungary, some 200,000 persons were dragged away as slaves. The Servian Patriarchate of Ipek was also suppressed, and the Servian Church was placed under the control of the Groeco-Bulgarian Patriarchate of Schrida. In 1557 the Patriarchate of Ipek was reestablished, and remained independent until its second suppression in 1766....http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13732a.htm
"We outlasted Ghttp://www.allempires.com/reece and Serbia by more than a century."
Maybe a decade!
-I'm interesting of your point of view about arraving Islam in Bosnia and how it started?


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When your heart is empty,your
mind is worth nothing.
anonimus


Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 12:30
Serbia fell in 1389, Bosnia fell in 1463 - the last remnants of the Bosnian kingdom were not conquered until 1525.

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Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 12:56
-1389 was battle on Kosovo polje
-1402 Turks lost against Mongols
-1459 Mehmed took Serbian despotovina
-1463 Bosna

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When your heart is empty,your
mind is worth nothing.
anonimus


Posted By: Jay.
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 15:53
Originally posted by Mila



Yes, the most powerful state in the Balkans at the time couldn't feed its own people.

Gazi Husrev-bey took years to defeat the remnants of the Bosnian Kingdom. We outlasted Greece and Serbia by more than a century.

And the skeletal remains from this area (see Kulin thread) showed Bosnians were healthy, relative free from disease, and had long life expectancies for the time.


No, they didn't. The poor parts of the Serbian State.. Especially in the north where Turkey was near.


Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 15:58
Okay, so northern Serbia was poor...?

What does that have to do with the independent Bosnian Kingdom and our conversion to Islam?


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Posted By: Jay.
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 16:21

Serbs were converted to Islam in those parts.



Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 16:24
Originally posted by Mila

Okay, so northern Serbia was poor...?

What does that have to do with the independent Bosnian Kingdom and our conversion to Islam?


Not our,your conversion. To notice that i don't have nothing against other religiones(i'm a poor religion educated). All i'm saying,is that with all changing wich made poeple in Bosnia the picture we have today. Once again Mrs.Mila something from catholic encyclopedia...
Population

According to the census of 22 April 1895, Bosnia has 1,361,868 inhabitants and Herzegovina 229,168, giving a total population of 1,591,036. The number of persons to the square mile is small (about 80), less than that in any of the other Austrian crown provinces excepting Salzburg (about 70). This average does not vary much in the six districts (five in Bosnia, one in Herzegovina). The number of persons to the square mile in these districts is as follows: Doljna Tuzla, 106; Banjaluka, 96; Bihac, 91; Serajevo, 73, Mostar (Herzegovina), 65, Travnik, 62. There are 5,388 settlements, of which only 11 have more than 5,000 inhabitants, while 4,689 contain less 500 persons. Excluding some 30,000 Albanians living in the south-east, the Jews who emigrated in earlier times from Spain, a few Osmanli Turks, the merchants, officials. and Austrian troops, the rest of the population (about 98 per cent) belong to the southern Slavonic people, the Serbs. Although one in race, the people form in religious beliefs three sharply separated divisions: the Mohammedans, about 550,000 persons (35 per cent), Greek Schismatics, about 674,000 persons (43 per cent), and Catholics, about 334,000 persons (21.3 per cent). The last mentioned are chiefly peasants. The Mohammedans form the mass of the population in the region called the Krajina in the north-west, in the district of Serajevo and in the south-eastern part of the territory; the Greek Schismatics preponderate in the district of Banjaluka. The Catholics of the Latin Rite exceed the other two denominations only in the district of Travnik and in northern Herzegovina. There are in addition 8,000 Jews and 4,000 Protestants. Divided according to occupation 85 per cent of the population are farmers or wine-cultivators (1,385,291). There are 5,833 large estates, the owners of which are chiefly Mohammedans, 88,970 cultivators of land not their own (kmeten), 88,867 free peasants who own the land they till, and 22,625 peasants who own farming-land and also cultivate the land of others. The population of the towns is small.


-------------
When your heart is empty,your
mind is worth nothing.
anonimus


Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 16:29
Same nation(98%) with three diferent religiones,we wasn't able to control outsides influences wich pushes us to war.......shame on us.

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When your heart is empty,your
mind is worth nothing.
anonimus


Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 16:54

I thought that the Bosnians were Bogomils and got repressed by other Christian churches because of that. That was surely a factor in the conversion. Are there any Bogomils left today?



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Posted By: Jay.
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 16:56
Dje ste braco sloveni


Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 17:19
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

I thought that the Bosnians were Bogomils and got repressed by other Christian churches because of that. That was surely a factor in the conversion. Are there any Bogomils left today?


Bogomils no longer exist by my knoledge. Here some info...The Miroslav's Gospel, the most valuable and the oldest manuscript written in Serbian in the Cyrillic script, date from the last quarter of the 12th century.(about 1190 A.D.) Confirmation of this dating is also found in words written by one of the scribes on the last page of the manuscript:"I, sinful disciple Gligorije... have inscribed in gold these Gospel for the celebrated prince Miroslav, son of Zavida..."

Prince Miroslav, brother of Grand Zhupan Stefan Nemanja, was the ruler of Hum, an area that largely coincides with the territory of present-day Herzegovina. He may have commissioned this manuscript at the time of his endowment of St. Peter’ s church on the Lim River, but no information or even legend exists about how or when the Gospel was taken from Hum to Chilandari monastery on Mt. Athos. One possibility is that Nemanja brought it with him when he founded Chilandari.

It is the earliest and most beautiful manuscript with rich coloured illustrations written in Serbian in Cyrillic script. The Gospel had been preserved in the library of Hilandar Monastery on the Holy Mountains, Athon (Greece). During the previous two centuries, the Gospel changed several times its place until it was kept in the National Museum of Belgrade.
About Bogomils even in present days exists oposit opinion between all three nation in Bosnia.

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When your heart is empty,your
mind is worth nothing.
anonimus


Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 17:22
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

I thought that the Bosnians were Bogomils and got repressed by other Christian churches because of that. That was surely a factor in the conversion. Are there any Bogomils left today?



Bosnia and Herzegovina was an independent Kingdom at the time of the Ottoman Empire and a vast majority of the population was Bogumil, with the exception of a staunch Roman Catholic minority and newly conquered areas of Serbia in the east, where there were Orthodox Christians.

These two believe Bosnia belongs to Serbia, so when they say Serbs, or northern Serbia, they're actually referring to Bosnia.

That's the kind of s--t we have to deal with every day.

Sorry if it confused you.


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Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 17:33
Put some pruf darling. Once again Bogumils are not the nation its some kind of religion. We didn't exept Christianity for a long period.

In Perugia, February 24th., 1252

In his letter, Johannes, the archbishop of Dubrovnik (archiepiscopus Ragusinus), mentions Serbian Bosnia: "regnum Seruilie, quod est Bosgna" i.e. "Serbian kingdom of Bosnia". ("Regnum" must have loosely meant kingdom in that time for, Bosnia was then a "banovina".)

"...tria regna, videlicet regnum Zachlomie, regnum Seruilie, quod est Bosgna et regnum Tribunie. Et regnum Zachulmie extenditur vsque ad prouinciam Spalatensem, regnum Seruilie extenditur vsque ad prouinciam Collocensem, regnum Tribunie extenditur vsque ad prouinciam Dirachinam."

From: "Bullarium Ragusium", 401-402

True can only help us not harm us,so don't be afraid.

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When your heart is empty,your
mind is worth nothing.
anonimus


Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 17:37
Encyclopedia Britannica
1. The first recorded mention of Bosnia was written during this period by the Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus, who described "Bosona" as a district in "baptized Serbia."

2. TVRTKO KOTROMANIC (b. c. 1338--d. 1391), probably the greatest ruler of Bosnia, ruling as Bosnian ban (provincial lord, subservient to the king of Hungary) from 1353 and king of the Serbs and Bosnia from 1377.

3. The Ottoman Turks invaded Bosnia in 1386, and after many battles it became a Turkish province in 1463. Hum held out longer under rulers who styled themselves herceg ("duke") of St. Sava--a name recalled today in Herzegovina.

"Sorry if it confused you."

-------------
When your heart is empty,your
mind is worth nothing.
anonimus


Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 17:47
The same arguement, I'm not surprised.

I'll just re-post what I posted before.

Originally posted by Mila

As an aside, though...

Nationality was rarely referenced in these letters written by Bosnian nobility and aristocracy. When it was referenced, Croatian and Serbian were referenced roughly equally and only once each in the sense of nationality (all other references were to language). For example, the same Stejpan Kotromanic you say claimed he was Serbian also told the Pope he spoke Croatian. But both are overshadowed by "Dalmatian" and "Slavic", which were the most common terms used to reference nationality - especially in legal or otherwise official texts.

"One can tally ethnic traits of medieval Bosnian rulers and find either Croat or Serb characteristics in the list. However, such simplistic approach is dated and discarded: there is no sign that population of pre-Ottoman Bosnia and Herzegovina, whichever social stratum, had developed Croatian or Serbian ethnic consciousness even in a medieval sense of the word."
- Franz Miklosic, Monumenta Srbica


And add that it was quite common for Roman and Byzantine authorities to refer to us as either Croatia or Serbia.

The people of Bosnia and Herzegovina, however, did no such thing until the Kotromanic dynasty, when Bosnia conquered a portion of western Serbia.

At this point Kotromanic declared himself the King of Bosnia, and of the Serbs, and of the Croats.

What you engraved on a tombstone centuries later, or what outsiders say about us, doesn't really matter to me.

We've decided, with significant historical proof, that we are not Serbian. We have no interest in being Serbian and, given the evidence, feel we never really were.

You can claim we are all we like. It doesn't raise our dead from the graves and it doesn't give you the right to claim our land. If, as you believe, we are Serbs - you should be ashamed for what you've done to your "Serbian" brothers. Not on an online chat room posting irrelevent bits of s--t from God know's where.

The tombstone for Mother Theresa in Mitrovica says she was a Serb, the one in her birthplace says she was Albanian.

Go bother Kosovar Albanians and try to steal their history first.

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Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 17:54
De Originibus Slavicis, 1745, Joan Christofori de Jordan

In his study of the Slavs (De Originibus Slavicis, 1745), Joan Christofori de Jordan, one of the founders of Slavistics in Germania, believes that early German sources, namely Einhard (e.g. Sorabos, quae natio magnam Dalmatiae partem obtinere dicitur), offer important information as to Serbia-Bosnia's western borders. According to Christofori, all the historical evidence strongly suggests that Serbi-Bosnia's western border ran along the Una and Sava rivers, centered at Srb, an ancient stronghold on the Una River.

"DAI" I hope you know what is that,is the strongest pruf. History is not just sunday hoby.

If you need more...ring

-------------
When your heart is empty,your
mind is worth nothing.
anonimus


Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 17:59
Okay, Surbel. Lets make-believe.

I'm a Serb. All Slovenians, Croatians, and Bosnians are Serbs.

However, we don't like our Serbian brothers in Serbia proper much.

We humbly request you all f--k off and leave us alone. We wish to move forwards, towards Europe - not backwards, towards the Byzantine Empire.

We even built funny Orthodox Churches called Catholic Cathedrals and Muslim Mosques, hoping you'd take the hint.

It is our ancestors who settled this land, not the ancestors of Belgraders. So please respect this wish from your fellow Serbs.

Goodbye.

And this will be my last post to you, ever. Hope you still have a life worth living without someone to play with you.


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Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2006 at 18:19
Someone just can't handle the true. I'm not stealing anything,my mother was born in SFR of Bosna and Herzegovina. I have beautiful pice of land there. In what you belive today is your own decision i can only suport you nothing else. But with your temper you just showing everybody on what cind of intelectual level you are and that is your problem not mine. With that same temper we felt into war.
For others(exept Mrs.Mila)....
Illyria Sacrum, Daniele Farlati
Illyria Sacrum is a massive eight-volume history of the Church in Illyria prepared in the 18th and 19th centuries by three Italian Jesuits, Filipo Riceputi, Daniele Farlati and Jacobo Coleti. Illyria Sacrum is based on some 300 volumes of raw source materials collected over a twenty-year period. The first volume was published in 1751 and the eighth in 1819.

Historically speaking, Farlati writes, there are two Serbias. One Serbia is Primorje or Maritime Serbia. The other Serbia is Zagorje or Interior Serbia. Zagorje is made up of two parts, Bosnia and Rascia/Raska (partes Serbliae). Bosnia (pars Serbliae), Farlati writes, like Raska, is a Serb land, an original and integral part of Zagorja or Interior Serbia.


-------------
When your heart is empty,your
mind is worth nothing.
anonimus



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