Why does Serbia hold onto Montenegro?
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Category: Scholarly Pursuits
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URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4499
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Topic: Why does Serbia hold onto Montenegro?
Posted By: strategos
Subject: Why does Serbia hold onto Montenegro?
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2005 at 01:04
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In the country of Serbia and Montenegro, I noticed that the bigger population by alot are ther Serbians, and I was wondering why does Serbia stay with Montenegro? i was thinking because Montenegro has important position on a coast, and Serbia would not have this otherwise? ------------- http://theforgotten.org/intro.html |
Replies:
Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2005 at 02:13
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Its also historical and mainly economical, Without Montenegro Serbia loses a coast and a very popular tourist attraction. Historically, most of Serbia's history has surrounded Montenegro, even Milosovich comes from a Montenegrin tribe. While they have always been two different entities(Zeta was never really united with Serbia), the two's characteristics are very close to eachother. Today, most actual Montenegrins declare themselves Serbs, while the minority(Albs and Bosniaks and a few Montenegrins) declare themselves minority or Montenegrins. Its 50% right now, but it will likley stay. Culturally though, IMO, most Montenegrin have a culture every akin to Northern Albanians. People in Montenegro follow nearly the same Blood Feud stuff that is practiced in northern Albania. And on many occasions, mentions by italians were made that most of the merchants in the costal area were Albanian. ------------- |
Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 18:08
First of all, that tourist incomes thing...that's a joke-we could do just fine without it. Second-they r Serbs-all the prominent montenegrins declared (and still do) as serbs...And yes, they share some (illyrian) customs with albanian, but their main traits r slavic-and they consider themselves as a part of slavic world.milosevic, Popovic, Petrovic, Boskovic,Milojevic, Jovanovic, Perovic,and many more surnames r montenegrin-i suggest u find a phonebook of belgrade and search this names (40000-60000 of jovanovic's alone!).Most of serbs have some near or distant ancestry in montenegro (including me)... I would like that they remain with us...Why? Read a bit of history-we can't be separated.
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 18:18
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I won't get into the historical debate, it's kind of irrelevent. I really don't know why Serbia holds on to Montenegro. Most Montenegrins, with the exception of a few minority enclaves in the Sandzak, want indepenence. Polls have shown as much as 90+ per cent support in some regions, with an overall, republic-wide average above 60 per cent. Most Serbs believe they're supporting Montenegro and, despite it's tourism industry, economic data seems to support this. I think they just hold on to it because they can. Why does Russia hold on to Belarus? Why is it so slow to let go of its neighbors? It doesn't really serve any dramatic purpose...? ------------- |
Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 19:15
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I have read places that Montenegrins are as such Austrians and (Greek) Cypriots are to Germany and Greece. They have a distinct national spirit but still view themselves as Greeks or Germans. I have heard it is the same with Montenegrins/Serbs. |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 04:10
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Maybe the old flawed belief that landlocked countries can never be as prosperous. Considering the existence of Switzerland, ist easy to be sceptical, there again, Switzerland hasn't gotten medival on its neighbours in recent memory so... -------------  Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 05:29
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I prefere that they stay with us...And we're not holding on to them-infact many Serbs want an indep. Serbia...it's not one-sided.However-u can't really distinguish ''serbian'' from ''montenegrin'' surnames-we're heavily mixed-but the old montenegrins thought of themselves as serbs-they didn't think of serbo-mont. marriages as of a 'mixed' ones.Their cultural heritage is unsurprisingly serbian. The whole issue is not that easy-suppose 60% of them votes for indep-what will those 40% do?Btw, their goverment is saying that actually only 115000 votes )out of 600000) is enough-meaning from 50% of all voters 50% has to vote for it 90%-maybe in areas where mostly Muslims live... And what tourism ?Most of the tourists r from serbia!! The whole thing is a cover up of that mobster Djukanovic-he's wanted by the Italian police-he can't go anywhere abroad-some pm... |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 05:35
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Warm water ports are still essential economically, otherwise you have to use other nations' ports which automatically puts you on the back foot, as any trade or political disputes could cut you off. As well as that, you have to pay premium rates and extra transportation on top of the strategic disadvantage (oil tankers etc). ------------- |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 05:48
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Serbia is closer to a seaport than Switzerland is AFAIK, plus they have
the Danube (though Switzerland has the Rhine up to Basel).
------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 06:01
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I don't think Switzerland and Serbia being compared in that way is very pragmatic, given the geopolitical circumstances of the two nations. If Switzerland has a dispute with Germany, Italy or France, it is highly unlikely that their trade would be blockaded, but Serbia and the Balkans is antoher story, not every part of the world is as stable as C Europe. ------------- |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 06:09
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True, and Serbia hasn't exactly helped in that department, which was part of my initial comment.
------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 09:20
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To give wright to vote you must concerne even people who was born there and still have the land(house,familiy...) and now they are in Serbia and some one can call them self Serbian or Montenegrian,but their interest is to have one not two passports. Ocasenly,my father was born on that fictional border,people call him Serbian,Montenegrian. We have a land there and my interest is to not separate or makes borders between same nation. Eventualy we all are going in EU where borders allmost don't exist. But for EU is much easyer to negotiate with smaller countries then with bigger one. ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Ahmed The Fighter
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 10:39
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Many reasons make Serbia hold onto Montenegro as the members wrote above but I think the main reason is the relationship between the people in the area,The Montenegrins claim they are slav. it is not like other cases(Bosnia,Macedonia,Croatia and other) it is an issue between same people settled in different two regions.
------------- "May the eyes of cowards never sleep" Khalid Bin Walid 
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Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 11:03
You are wright in one way,but if i might to complete you: -Montenegrins in the past call themself-Serbs -Today many others(even from outside) interests spreading in the country -Bosnia was the same case too,but three diferent religons,a few diferent geopolitical interest made the problam wich Bosnia and Herzegivina is faceing today. Look this link below where you can see that. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02694a.htm ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 12:29
are you trying to imply that Bosnians called themselves Serbs? |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 12:59
Not only that, teknique. That we actually are Serbs. 
But let them play, seriously. I haven't responded to one of his posts in a long time and I don't intend to. Komnenos is the only one with a brain I've ever met who believes it. It just drives me crazy. You have a wealth of information, covering centuries, linking Bosnia to either Hungary, Croatia, or independence. Then you have one passage from a King where he says his language is Serbian - the same King who also said his language was Croatian (twice) and said HE was Bosnian. And from that little, tiny, fragment of "Serbianness" they ignore the overall, CLEARLY Western history. ------------- |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 13:09
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He is... but other opinions suggest that they rather felt Croat or just Bosnian.
------------- 
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 13:17
Bla bla bla,always the same. I told you many many times,you can be what ever you want,but you can't change to history. I was born in "Bratsvo i jedinstvo" and i still have friends between Bosniaks,Croats..... Bosniaks like nation and language never exist until 1991 or if someone have the proof,please be my guest...show it. ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 13:35
"Bla bla bla,always the same. I told you many many times..." that Evlija Celebi wrote in the 1600s
that the Slavs of Bosnia called themselves Bosniaks and the Ottomans called their language
"Bosnjacki". http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:EJvqZ66XwM0J:www.seep.ceu.hu/issue22/dimitrovova.pdf+origin+bosniak&hl=en - http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:EJvqZ66XwM0J:www.seep.c eu.hu/issue22/dimitrovova.pdf+origin+bosniak&hl=en ------------- |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 13:52
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Bosna is teritorial,regional... term. In Vojvodina live ..... Vojvodians? In Kosovo.................Kosovars? In Herzegovina ........Herzegovians? In Slavonia................Slavonians? In Krajina........ &nb sp; Kraijanainais??? And apart of that,what cind of link is that  So,for you every one who doesn't call him self Bosniak in the Bosna he is crazy?? See the link and you must convert alot of people http://www.geocities.com/savindan/BHetnicka.htm ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 13:59
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It's not often I feel so much more educated than those around me that just interacting with them is annoying. I pity Einstein. Firstly, the map on your link is wrong. You lost much of western Bosnia in the Croat offensive in 1995:  Secondly, a map 10 years following a genocidal war is hardly an accurate way to depict the ethnic composition of a country along historical lines. You can't say Germany had no Jews because it had fewer in 1945 than in 1925. An ethnic map predating the genocide:  It's also interesting to note the green and white (no majority) districts combined account for well over 80 per cent of Bosnia's population. 
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Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 14:14
What you not understand? Can you stop avoiding,and answer on my questions chica? And give us a link of your source! ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 18:50
volim te mila Looks like we have another resident cetnik aboard allempires again - next step is for him to dedicate a whole topic on how we are "poturceni srbi" |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 19:14
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ill_tecnique relaja te un pocito,take some pills. Move on,you are
liveing in the past not me. If a fact disturbed you,don't watch
it,like in a past time. If you know that you are right,why you become so nervose? I didn't ensalt you not even once,but you did me few times. I accept that. It's not your fault if you had read just some books. Your time is comming,but start with bonton first. ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 04:50
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"Bla bla bla,always the same. I told you many many times..." that Evlija Celebi wrote in the 1600s that the Slavs of Bosnia called themselves Bosniaks and the Ottomans called their language "Bosnjacki". I dont know langauge but bosniak was a word used by ottomans, Infact some of bosniak devsirhmes named as Bosnak .... Paşa. For exp: Boşnak Cafer Paşa also one of mosque name is Boşnak Ahmed Paşa Mosque, at Baghdat. http://www.irakturkleri.com/iraktaki_turk_mimari_eserleri_bagdad.html - http://www.irakturkleri.com/iraktaki_turk_mimari_eserleri_ba gdad.html I dont think, any bosniak have relation with Iraq after 1900. At Akhisar,(a town at Anatolia), there is a pazar named Boşnak Mustafa Efendi Hanı. http://www.akhisar.bel.tr/mambo/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=36 - http://www.akhisar.bel.tr/mambo/index.php?option=com_content &task=view&id=12&Itemid=36
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fficePosted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 04:50
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So, Mila, I haven't got any brains-well as long as you've got some-we know that some of your arguments at earlier threads r heavily argumented with historically certifiable data, and that u would never write a single thing from speculative sources Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyregenitus(X century) wrote that Bosnians r Serbs.His writings r among best sources available of balkans in his time.The term Bosniak started mainly aprox. 800 years ago due to bogumil question. About that turkish traveler-how can anyone with any reason at all consider his work as a reference?Montenegrins called themselves Bosniaks in the 17th century???FHS, they were the most determined to fight turks and absolutely despised all converts calling them poturice!!Anyway, I found this about celebija: ''Evliya Celebi" "...Evliya possessed a vivid imagination, occasionally mixing fact and fantasy; he described places he could not possibly have visited..." Copyright © 1994-2002 Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 04:59
| so can you tell me how, a mosque at bagdat named as bosniak? |
Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 05:13
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What the ....I feel like i'm listening to a politician who is talking about the economy of Nigeria when u ask him what is his next step in labour politics... Mortaza, I really want to answer your question, it's just that i don't know what is it about. |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 05:34
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Bosniaks like nation and language never exist until 1991 or if someone have the proof,please be my guest...show it. Acording to our friend, bosniak thing is new, but Infact their ancestors also called as bosniak. They called themself as bosniak. In ottomans, mosque names are mainly name of financer of mosque. our large mosques named like this, Süleymaniye, Selimiye. So most probably this Boşnak Ahmed Paşa financed this mosque, and his name was given to mosque. It looks like even people at baghdat know what is bosniak. But unfortunately, serbs dont know.
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Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 06:29
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 06:31
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 06:32
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In Perugia, February 24th., 1252 From: "Bullarium Ragusium", 401-402------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 06:33
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 07:37
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Mortaza,Serbs call them self Montenegrins(if they are from Montenegro) I dont excatly what do you mean, but I dont know, baghdat have any common thing with bosnia. Remember that lands are slav lands,IIRC Belgrad is a bulgarin word. I am not talking about times before ottoman, have no knowledge about this, but ottomans know difference between a serb and bosniak. and far before 1991, there were a bosniak nation. I dont know when slav nation divided , but saying bosnians are serbs is complately nonsense, their source is one, but they are two different nation. but well, afterall all of us comes from adam.
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Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 08:18
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Halo Mortaza. You are mixing a lots of things here. My nick is Sur-bel......white dawn Belgrad or Beograd...white town Bulgars they were Slavenized. I'm not shore what cind of knowledge you have? Difference was only in religion. Chatolics...become Croats Muslims .........Bosniaks not Bosnians(this is a regional term or geografical) You can see on this link too: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02694a.htm I never use a Serbian sources so no one can tell me something against that. Today if someone call him self a Bosniak he is a Bosniak for me too,it would be complete nonsence to call him otherwise. But past we can't change even if someone trying to,so he could feel more comfortable! ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 12:21
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Constantine was an foreigner who said a small part of Bosnia was inhabited by Serbs. Meanwhile, the Romans described us as Dalmatians. The Italians and Hungarians described us as Croats. Some Albanians said we too were Illyrians. Many Serbian historians said we weren't Slavs at all, but are actually Turks. As far as I'm concerned, foreigners can call us whatever they please - it does not reflect what we have considered ourselves.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovi na "One can tally ethnic traits of medieval Bosnian rulers and find either Croat or Serb characteristics in the list. However, such simplistic approach is dated and discarded: there is no sign that the population of pre-Ottoman Bosnia and Herzegovina, whichever social stratum, had developed Croatian or Serbian ethnic consciousness even in a medieval sense of the word." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Miklosich - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Miklosich ------------- |
Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 12:45
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First of all-I'm aware(and i said so ) that bosniaks started refering to themselves as bosniaks aprox 800 years ago.nevertheless, your(certain amount of at least) serbian ancestry is undisputed-what about these names of spahija's from 19th century:Rascic, Tadic,Ljubic, etc? Second, that link u gave earlier isn't the brightest example of reliability...(forgot to tell u) |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 12:51
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Just re-read the bolded part of my last post to answer your questions.
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Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 12:55
First of all- tell me what has this got do with anything?Your proofs r very superficial.And you didn't pay much attention to what i wrote about their name-which was attested many centuries before your mosques were built.this is not about their name, it's about their origin...Can u imagine an American who says that he's British?Still, most of Caucasian Americans (in USA and Canada) r of british ancestry. We refere to them as Bosniaks all the time-we don't call them 'serbs'.if u read some history, u would know i'm right. I think surbel was right about the language-there is no bosniak language.
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 13:05
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Well the Slavs settled Bosnia before the Serbs and Croats even arrived, Socrates. Secondly, even those Slavs that arrived in later waves and settled Croatia and Serbia could hardly be called "Croats" or "Serbs" in a modern sense. The independent Bosnian kingdom was consolidated at roughly the same time as their states were. The defining characteristics of what makes Croats and Serbs different did not develop until the schism in Christianity, and the Bosnian Church developed at more or less the same time - and certainly carried a separate Bosnian identity into the Ottoman Empire. Lastly, the genetic tests they conducted have shown that Bosniaks are largely indigenous to the Balkans anyway - with a relatively small level of the Slavic genes. More importantly, the tests showed there is a genetic difference between Bosniaks, Bosnian Croats, and Bosnian Serbs that could not have developed only during the Ottoman Empire. This means our people intermarried relatively infrequently during these formative years.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks#Genetic_analysis_of_indigenousness - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks#Genetic_analysis_of_in digenousness ------------- |
Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 13:07
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What?The medieval thing? I think wikipedia has a point there-those were stormy times-and it's when bosniak identity developed...btw, i found this in a book by Corovic- he claims your origins were serbian, though Btw, historical works by Constantine Porphyrogenitus r counted as reliable... |
Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 13:11
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I knew that. |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 13:15
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Then how can you say we're Serbs? It's just so blatantly wrong. You gave the example of an American saying his ancestry is not British, when for a large section of the population the ancestry is from Britain. That example doesn't hold up. By saying Bosniaks and/or Croats are Serbs, you're actually saying: Americans are descendant from Australians. Serbs are not the first group - Slavs were. You can say Bosniaks, Croats, and Serbs are all desendant from Slavs - but you can't say Bosniaks and Serbs are descendant from Croats, or Bosniaks and Croats are descendant from Serbs. It's just primitive common sense. And considering the length of our journey out of Africa, we broke apart into separate nations at more or less exactly the same time. ------------- |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 13:35
Encyclopedia Britannica1. The first recorded mention of Bosnia was written during this period by the Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus, who described "Bosona" as a district in "baptized Serbia."2. TVRTKO KOTROMANIC (b. c. 1338--d. 1391), probably the greatest ruler of Bosnia, ruling as Bosnian ban (provincial lord, subservient to the king of Hungary) from 1353 and king of the Serbs and Bosnia from 1377. 3. The Ottoman Turks invaded Bosnia in 1386, and after many battles it became a Turkish province in 1463. Hum held out longer under rulers who styled themselves herceg ("duke") of St. Sava--a name recalled today in Herzegovina. The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1917Bosnia and HerzegovinaPopulation "Excluding some 30,000 Albanians living in the south-east, the Jews
who emigrated in earlier times from Spain, a few Osmanli Turks, the merchants,
officials. and Austrian troops, the rest of the population (about 98
per cent) belong to the southern Slavonic people, the Serbs. Although one in
race, the people form in religious beliefs three sharply separated divisions:
the Mohammedans, about 550,000 persons (35 per cent), Greek Schismatics, about
674,000 persons (43 per cent), and Catholics, about 334,000 persons (21.3 per
cent). The last mentioned are chiefly peasants." De Originibus Slavicis, 1745, Joan Christofori de JordanIllyria Sacrum, Daniele FarlatiIllyria Sacrum is a massive eight-volume history of the Church in Illyria prepared in the 18th and 19th centuries by three Italian Jesuits, Filipo Riceputi, Daniele Farlati and Jacobo Coleti. Illyria Sacrum is based on some 300 volumes of raw source materials collected over a twenty-year period. The first volume was published in 1751 and the eighth in 1819.Historically speaking, Farlati writes, there are two Serbias. One Serbia is Primorje or Maritime Serbia. The other Serbia is Zagorje or Interior Serbia. Zagorje is made up of two parts, Bosnia and Rascia/Raska (partes Serbliae). Bosnia (pars Serbliae), Farlati writes, like Raska, is a Serb land, an original and integral part of Zagorja or Interior Serbia. Mila your knowledge is.....  You read something what was a Tito politic.. We can be shore that only Croats and Bulgars arrived on this peninsula like already Slavinazed Avars,their culture is like ours today and language too,only diferents is in dialekt but we can understand each other more or less. In Istra we can find today Slavs toponims wich dates many centuries before...river Rasa. Sofia was before Serdica... Croats and Bulgars use the some names of their own ancestors(Tuga,Vuga...) The problems on this land is with religons. This land was on the middle between Roma and Byzant interests. After 1054 when churches were divided. Vatikan suport the chatolics. When Turks arrived,they had their interest too. All sources we have,even from the East(Byzant-Porfirogenet DAI) And from the West (Roma-many Popes),Reinhard,Illyria Sacrum, Daniele Farlati . Maps of Europe
------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 14:26
It's almost comical. I have to bookmark my posts so I can just copy
them and re-paste them every time you bring up the same arguements. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovi na Anyhow, it was fun for a time but now it's just annoying - so I'm out of this thread. Xox Good luck. I can't wait until you start saying the Ottoman Empire was a Serbian empire too. Tvrtko conquered you,
get over it.------------- |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 14:48
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And here is his original letter on this link,not some woodoo s... He put before his name STEFAN i hope you know what is that. Quote""in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1377" title="1377 - 1377 he was crowned King of Serbia and Bosnia and the Seaside and the Western Lands in a Franciscan monastery in Mile, in the city of Visoko near Sarajevo."" Thats not true,origialy is like this:" in 1377 he was crowned King of Serbs and Bosnia and the Seaside.....You can see in his letters. You can see the map of that period on this forum: Historical pictures and Maps gallery: When was Louis I of HungarySouth East Europe before the rule of Louis the I
King ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 14:50
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Link to the letter didn't appear http://members.tripod.com/cafehome/povkotromanica/tvrtko.htm ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 14:53
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After Mighty Dusan ,country felt apart.
------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 15:35
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Always the same. You can run but you can't hide And stop avoiding the true,we live in 2006 ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 20:36
shhhh Mila just come to terms we are serbs\  it's laughable that people still fall prey to the bs propaganda . that is the true reason why tensions prevail in the region |
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 20:39
Wait did you even for a minute take that antiquated Catholic Encyclopedia as an authority on Bosnian history or do you just pick and choose the sources that will carry on your point further no matter how wrong the sources used are? |
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 20:40
I did not insult you - the only way you can feel insulted by the word cetnik is if you feel yourself as one. |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 21:31
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Just check the letters don't avoid the history. You can run but you can't hide. You are a Bosniak today,i agree with you. I posted a primary sources for each period: DAI, LPD, Encyclopedia Britannica,The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1917, De Originibus Slavicis, 1745, Joan Christofori de Jordan, Illyria Sacrum, Daniele Farlati Maps of Europe, Einhard, His original letters(Kotromanic) After this sources you only can say: """"the sources that will carry on your point further no matter how wrong the sources used are? Jajaja every f...g one is wrong,the hole history was wrong and make some bad things to your nation because it didn't mention the "Great state of Bosniaks" Show me some woodoo magic man. Only you have is a wikipedia Evlija Celebija by Karl May: "The lonely sailor" Wake up accept the history so you can have the future,or don't bother at all and go play on the backyard streeball. ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 09:04
postamble()
------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 15:02
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Western border of Serbia According to Christofori and most historians, all the historical evidence strongly suggests that Serbi-Bosnia's western border ran along the Una and Sava rivers, centered at Srb, an ancient stronhold on the Una River. Croatian historiography Within Croatian Historiography there is a strong agreement that Croatia's eastern border ran along the Una and Sava rivers: The following published works of major croat historian illustrate this effectively: Klaić, Nada. Povijest Hrvata u ranom srednjem vijeku, Zagreb 1975.: Pokušaj ujedinjavanja panonskih Slavena http://www.geocities.com/hrvatskapovijest/img/07.gif - www.geocities.com/hrvatsk...img/07.gif Raukar, Tomislav.: Hrvatska u doba kneza Trpimira (sredina IX. st.) http://www.geocities.com/hrvatskapovijest/img/08.gif - www.geocities.com/hrvatsk...img/08.gif Klaić, Nada. Povijest Hrvata u ranom srednjem vijeku, Zagreb 1975.: Hrvatska i Slavonija za Tomislava http://www.geocities.com/hrvatskapovijest/img/09.gif - www.geocities.com/hrvatsk...img/09.gif Klaić, Nada. Povijest Hrvata u ranom srednjem vijeku, Zagreb 1975.: Dolazak Arpadovića http://www.geocities.com/hrvatskapovijest/img/10.gif - www.geocities.com/hrvatsk...img/10.gif Hard to accept,but thats history if you like it or not and that goes to your comrad Mila too. ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 18:50
| Ti si opicen u glavu |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 19:09
Turkoglu,yo te quiero mucho. No puedo vivir sin ti. Tell me your surname so i can tell you,who was your grandfather  We have some very very old books. I can help you. ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 19:50
Onaj turcin sto ti je uzeo srbiju |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 20:02
But you sad that you are Bosniak,what happend now you become a Turk?And remember something,you didn't take me nothing. But what did you take you must live with it. ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 20:05
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I never told you what I was and you're assuming cetnik
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Posted By: Jay.
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 22:37
Ill_Teknique, you're calling him a cetnik?  Why can't you admit that your ancesstors were Sirbi!! How can you even call yourself a Turk? Turks converted your ancesstors who were once Serbs...and btw, don't ever say "cetnik" again, capiche? ------------- Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava Only Unity Can Save the Serb |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 22:38
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He is half Turkish. We weren't Serbs. And Surbel quite obviously is a Cetnik. |
Posted By: Jay.
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 22:47
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Funny how you can't admit it.. Then how did Bosniaks really arrive in that terrioty? They fell from the sky? ------------- Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava Only Unity Can Save the Serb |
Posted By: Jay.
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 22:47
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And Surbel is just a proud Serbian. ------------- Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava Only Unity Can Save the Serb |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 23:03
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We didn't fall from the sky. The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs" title="Slavs - Slavs ...settling in what is now Bosnia, Herzegovina, and the surrounding lands. The Serbs and Croats came in a second wave, settling in the lands surrounding Bosnia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Bosnia_and_Herzego vina Bosniaks are a Southeast European ethnic group descended from South Slavic converts to Islam, that lived in Bosnian Kingdom (they called themselves Good Bosnians, in old Bosnian: "Dobri Bošnjani"). They are named after http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_%28region%29" title="Bosnia (region) - Bosnia , the largest and most significant historical region of modern http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina" title="Bosnia and Herzegovina - Bosnia and Herzegovina . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks I think that's clear enough. I can keep posting again and again if that's what you people need? |
Posted By: YuGo
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 23:43
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That's wrong. Bosniaks were made up by Serbian-Muslim leader Alija Izetbegovic! Mila there is no point in replying to Surbel! No matter how much you have to backup what you say, he will always deny it.. And it's the Same for Surbel! You can give her links to 100 websites about how Bosniaks are not a real nation, but she will just end up acting like a bigger Bosniak! so.. play nicely kids! |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 23:50
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Careful. You could end up like the Croats in Busovaca. Try to play both sides and get killed by both. |
Posted By: YuGo
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 00:18
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fine... Surbel I agree with you 100% You see you can't even be neutral with these turks! Nothing is good enough for them! |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 00:20
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Hahaha. That's it. When the war starts again, the FIRST place I'm going is Teslic. That beautiful new church is coming down. |
Posted By: YuGo
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 00:25
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Bring it on! Me and my Cetnik brothers will be bombing your ass back to Turkey by the time you step one foot in Teslic! Hehehe. I love being a Cetnik! |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 00:31
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Hehehe. You make the worst cetnik ever. I don't think you have a single grain of hatred in your body for anyone - I envy it.
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Posted By: YuGo
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 00:44
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You on the other hand, do make a pretty good Balija.. even if it isn't my intention you will probably take that as a complement! |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 05:50
I don't call them Turks,cous for a few morons who belive their politicians i'm not gonna change. I still have a good friends who are today Bosniaks and i know them for a loooong time(from a childhood). 1992,1993 I was in a refugees camps where were all the muslims. I help them and today many of them are in a diferent places(Australia,Canada,USA....) thats make me a real "cetnik ha". But when i put some proof that Bosniak like nation didn't exist before 1991 i become a cetnik. In a SFRJ didn't came out not even one book about that (Bosniak nation) and we know all how much TITO loves the muslims. Some things will never change and thats the way that we can't stop the influences from outside,wich doesn't bring us nothing good only more wars and pain. ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 11:30
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what is so important at 1991, how these guys became bosniak instead of serb?
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 11:36
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The simple answer is that we didn't, Mortaza. It's very clear that we
were known as Bosniaks at least as far back as the Ottoman Empire and
what's really funny is that it was actually Bosnian Croats and Bosnian
Serbs who only recently invented their nationalities. http://www.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/kosovo/9606.html">  |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 11:39
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No one sad,that these guys was before Serbs. I sad that Bosniaks like nation or langauge didn't exist before 1991. I never sad that Mila or someone else was yesterday Serb and today Bosniak. Religions take a big role in this problem. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02694a.htm See the link and if you have some other questions be my guest,i will try to answer all of them. ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 11:39
I just want to quote this so I can keep it. |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 11:40
One smart and two stupids you sad. Belived or not it will be the same. ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 11:50
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Before second world war in Yugoslavia we had minority such as Turks,Albans,Germans.... other muslims(Slav) they had to decide what they are (posible was only Croat or Serb). Then politic made a big mistake,cous alot of muslims decide to declare them self as Croats,because of earlyer war between Otomans and Serbs,ofcourse Muslims in Serbia suport the Otomans.Because of that Ustashi propaganda anect the Bosnia in second war,explanation was that there are Croats. Muslims in Bosnia become a big aliance with NDH led by Ante Pavelic and his fascist regim. ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: YuGo
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 12:30
I was joking. Don't take much offence to what I had said. I didn't read half of your posts, and this whole topic doesn't interest me at all. Does it even matter if they weren't called Bosniaks before 91'.. now they are, we have to live with that. I don't see the point why either of you spend so much time fighting about something you both feel so strongly about... when in the end no one changes their mind and says "eh! your right Bosniaks never did exist!" or " I was a fool not to believe you, Bosniaks DO exist!" LOL you know? lol. last post in this thread. |
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 12:33
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I am a Bosanac. On my moms side i have turkish ancestry and do not see why I should hide it or be ashamed of it. I consider my self a Bosanac not a Turk. And no we were never srbi its just some orthodox seljaci in the 19th began thinking they are serbs because they share a common religion.
And if you are a real serb you will not be offended by the term cetnik because you are not one
I have plenty serbian friends here that will attest to that. ------------- |
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 12:34
i use that as my nickname on myspace ------------- |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 12:58
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From your moms side,is that the only one? ""Seljaci began thinking they are Serbs"" Why not Vietnamese??? Or Russians,they are orthodox too,or Bulgars??? ""I consider my self a Bosanac not a Turk."" If you decler that you are African,thats fine by me too. You can be whatever you want,Bosniak,Turk,African.... just don't be a lier! ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 13:06
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i dont get it ------------- |
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 13:08
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there is a difference between pride and ultranationalism ------------- |
Posted By: Jay.
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 13:53
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I don't think you understand the meaning of ultranationalism.. Extreme nationalism, especially when opposed to international cooperation.. Has he done anything of that nature? No ..... ------------- Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava Only Unity Can Save the Serb |
Posted By: strategos
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 19:32
| Perhaps bosnians are nto serbians, and serbians are not bosnians. Maybe you all come from a distinct slavic common ancestors, and bosnian and serbian evolved differently. So to claim one is from the other probly is not accurate. |
Posted By: RomiosArktos
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 19:45
| The history of the two regions,Serbia and Bosnia is not quite the same especially after the Ottoman conquest.So their different history is something that can seperate the Bosnians and the Serbs.There is also another point,not all Muslims of Bosnia are of slavic origin.Yet, they may speak the same language(is it so?) but in terms of religion or historical memories they are seperate people. |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 20:46
Separate in religion only! Not even one other thing(big majority) Still some old books exists,where they are corect dates what parts of country take the muslim religion. Religion came forcely,law taxes,to protect kids,cous turks was only taken christin kids for Janicaris,even Mehmed Pasha Sokolovic came from a little vilage near Visegrad. He put his brother Orthodox priest to be the head of Serbian Orthodox Church in Kosovo. He build a bridge in Visegrad to remaind him on that. AustroHungaria anect Bosnia and Herzegovina 1908,but even before had big influence and was present there with army. Cous of their influence,a lot of muslims and orthodox belivers change a religion in chatolic. We have complet lists of counting 1835,19855... and we can see how numbers did change-but only in religion. Todays muslims in Bosnia,they were a little more worthet to Turks then others. Decleracion of AustroHungaria by 1902 all chatolics slavs become Croats. In Herzegovina over night were divided the hole families. ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 20:59
Roma (Gypsies) in Bosnia and Herzegovina are typically Muslim and they would be the only Islamic group clearly separated from the rest of the population as a whole. There are areas where Slavs mixed more with people from other areas of the Ottoman Empire, like Mostar - but the overall impact of this has been shown to be fairly small. Bosniaks have an average of about 45% Slavic genes, and a large portion of the rest made up of genes distinctive to the Balkans (ie "Illyrian"). Serbs have an average of 35% and Croats 45%. There are regions where this rises significantly - for example, Dalmatia and Herzegovina, where Croats both have in the high 70%'s of Slavic genes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks#Genetic_analysis_of_indigenousness - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks#Genetic_analysis_of_in digenousness Bosnian and Croatian are the same languages but Bosnian has a vocabulary infused with words from other languages. Bosnians say "mahala" for neighborhood, for example, and use near English names for months (Novembar, Decembar, etc.). Both Bosnian and Croatian are written with the Latin script and we use the J emphasis which Serbs don't use. Vrijeme (Bos/Cro) instead of Vreme (Ser), Svijet instead of Svet, etc. All Muslims in Bosnia speak the same language, yes. |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 21:09
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Here's something fun for you, Romios. A demonstration courtesy of Saban and Selma. http://www.zippyvideos.com/5028383143353476/serb-bos/">  |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 21:19
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Because of Vuk Karadzic Serb Lingual Reformator,he made a language what is today known. In south slavic group exist three diferent dialekts: -Kajkavski lovenia,North West Croatia-Cakavski:Central and west Croatia(from origin Croatian language) In todays schools they use three diferent dialekts and trying to mixed them. -Stokavski:It's diveded in another three diferent dialekts: ~ Ekavica lavonia,Vojvodina,central Serbia~ Ijekavica:Bosna,Herzegovina,south west Serbia,Montenegro ~ Ikavica almatia,LikaVuk Karadzic for the first time(Mila even doesn't know that) use the letter "J" before that was "JOT" like Russians. Todays Russians easyer can reed our old books,better then us. ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2006 at 23:51
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Coming into this thread having little knowledge of the ethnic
differences in the Balkans excluding religion. I have to say that the
Bosniak (? Bosniak is the ethnic group of people who live in Bosnia
yes?) arguement is much better than the Serbian one. I have been convinced that the Bosnians are not nor were ever Serbs. EDIT: What does cetnik mean? |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 23-Jan-2006 at 00:00
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A Cetnik is a Serbian Royalist, Omar. Officially they want to return
the Serbian monarchy to power but were defeated during the Second World
War by the Partisans, who were also overwhelmingly Serbian, who instead
established a socialist state. However, much like Nazi no longer refers to a national socialist, these days Cetnik has entirely different meanings. All of those Serbs who were charged and/or convicted of war crimes and genocide during the wars in Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Kosovo called themselves and were known by their victims as Cetniks. So, for most people, that's what the term now means - a fascist Serbian nationalist who supports the genocide either by openly praising it or denying it ever took place. It's different from being a Serbian nationalist, which usually refers to someone who loves everything Serbian more than anything else but not at the expense of others. The two terms, however, are switched quite often. The Croatian equivalent is Ustasa although their war criminals during the 1992-1995 war very rarely referred to themselves as such. There is no Bosnian equivalent - people will just say terrorist, fundamentalist, extremist, and any of the other terms commonly used for other Muslim nationalists. |
Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 23-Jan-2006 at 04:10
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Those guys from the 90's weren't chetniks-just used it as a front cover.And the Croatian ustasha is used widely among croats - i have a chance too see their channels-and they say that chetnik's were the serbian ustasha's Posto teqnique moze, mogu i ja: reci kugla! |
Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 23-Jan-2006 at 04:18
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And what do u know about history of balcans?Do u know that r languages r the same?I think u're supporting them because they're muslims...in fact i'm 100% sure that u are.What book about Serbia or Bosnia and their history have u ever read?I'm sure I know more of your country then you know of mine( or bosnia)... |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 23-Jan-2006 at 04:29
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Still some old books exists,where they are corect dates what parts of country take the muslim religion. Religion came forcely,law taxes,to protect kids,cous turks was only taken christin kids for Janicaris,even Mehmed Pasha Sokolovic came from a little vilage near Visegrad. You are talking rubish, bosniaks as taken devsirhmes even they were muslim.(with bosniak wishes) So this christian kid thing is not true. even Mehmed Pasha Sokolovic came from a little vilage near Visegrad. He put his brother Orthodox priest to be the head of Serbian Orthodox Church in Kosovo. so he know, his family and his race. That discussion is stupid, no nation happened one day. why should bosniaks should do. |
Posted By: RomiosArktos
Date Posted: 23-Jan-2006 at 05:54
No,Mila,I meant whether the Muslim Bosnians and the Serbs in Bosnia or Serbia speak the same language.Can a Bosnian understand a Serb native speaker and vice versa? All Muslims in Bosnia are not probably of Slavic origin.To me seems logical that there were Muslims from all over the empire attracted to Bosnia,since it was a military frontier for the Otomans.These people did not probably leave their place after the collapse of the Ottoman Caliphate. |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 23-Jan-2006 at 06:52
Your posting is rubish. To put some oppinion on the table,you must know at least something. Everything i wrote is true. Before 2nd world war in Bosnia and Herzegovina there were two nations and three diferent religion or maby is something to hard to understand for you. We sad,that people carrying their religion in the bag. Before didn't exist nation with name Bosniaks!!! Cous country has the other region too if you don't know that is HERZEGOVINA. In Serbia muslims after 1991 start to call them self Bosniaks They were never born,never lived,their roots are not fron Bosnia. But it was harder for them to accept the reality that they are Serbs with muslim religion instead they became Bosniaks to feel more comfortable. But that wasn't the case in Montenegro,there live muslims too. But you not gonna hear them say "i'm a Bosniak" The same surname as maine has a lot of doctors in Sarajevo Hospitals and they are comming from the same area as me! ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 23-Jan-2006 at 07:13
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ah forget it, wasting my time, no bosniak built mosque at baghdat after ww2. It is cristal clear, bosniaks were calling themself as bosniaks, even place like baghdat.
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