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Origins of the Afghans

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ancient Mesopotamia, Near East and Greater Iran
Forum Discription: Babylon, Egypt, Persia and other civilizations of the Near East from ancient times to 600s AD
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Topic: Origins of the Afghans
Posted By: Afghanan
Subject: Origins of the Afghans
Date Posted: 19-Jun-2005 at 14:27

Origins of the Afghans

Today Afghanistan is a nation of many different ethnic groups (Pashtuns, Uzbeks, Tajiks, Hazaras, Turkmen, etc), and all their citizens referred today as Afghans.   The country was carved out of the imperial thrust of two gat super powers, Czarist/Bolshevik Russia to the North, and British India to the south and east.

Historically, the term has been applied to the ethnic group known today as the Pashtuns (also known as Pakhtuns, Pathans).  The word Pashtun and the word Afghan are used interchangeably throughout history.

The Origin of the Word Afghan

H.W. Bellew's Mountaineers Theory:

The name Albania, it seems clear was given to the country by the Romans.  Albania means "mountainous country", and its inhabitants were called Albani, "mountaineers" ...the Latin Alban is apparently the source of the Armenian Alwan, which is their name for these Albani.  The Armenian Alwan, Alvan or Alban, though ordinarily pronounced indifferently, is written in the Amrenian character with letters which, being transliterated, read as Aghvan or Aghwan; and this word, pronounced Alvan, etc. in Armenia, in the colloquial dialect of their eastern neighbors is changed to Aoghan, Avghan, and Afghan.

Horsemen Theory:

The Sanskrit word Ashva-kan, which means horsemen (Ashva is similar to Aspa, which both mean horse in Iranian tongues).  The word Ashvakayan was used by the Hindu Historian Panini in his book Ashtadyai (Ustadyai in Persian form) back around the 5th century BC.  It has also appeared in other records in different forms:

Sanskrit - Ashva-ka
Panini - Ashvakayan
Ancient Temple inscription - Avakan
Brahta - Samhita - Avagan
Ferdousi's Shahnama - Avagan
King Shapur III records - Abgan/Apkan
Sassanian Records - Abgan
Hiuen Tsang - Apokien

The Ashvakan were known as horsemen, and were described as living presently exactly where Afghans are found today, and were known for their horse-breeding, nomadic, and also trading culture.  This nomadic/horsemen culture was also mentioned by the other appelation of the Afghans, the Pakhtuns.  The word Avagan is similar to the way Afghans pronounce this word.  Pakhtuns/Afghans call themselves "Awghans/Avghans" and not Afghans. 

Pakhtun-Afghan Relationship

As I have said before, Pashtun and Afghan are used interchangeably.  This nomadic/horsemen culture was also witnessed by Herodotus in the country he knew as Paktyke.   The country of Paktykae (in Greek, "Y" is pronounced with "U" and hence we get Paktuka) was mentioned by Herodotus.  Afghans today mention the border regions around Afghanistan and today's Pakistan as Pukhtunkhwa

Herodotus mentioned their country in the vicinity of Gandhara, which is not today's Kandahar, but the Kabul-Jalalabad-Peshawar Valley area.
 
Herodotus says in Book 3:102:
 
 "...these (Paktuans) live to the north and in the direction of the north wind as compared with the remaining Indians, and their way of life is almost the same as that of the Baktrians (Paktra/Bactria)...they are the most warlike..."

He also earlier states that they made a portion of the Persian army:
 
Book 3:93 - "From Paktuike and the Armenians...the sum drawn was 400 talents.  This was the 13th satrapy."

In other quotes, he mentions other nomadic tribesmen with intriguing names that are very similar to Afghan tribes today.  One of them mentioned are the Aspasi.  Again, the word "Aspa" is used here.  Modern scholars link this tribe to the Yosufzai.  It is common among Afghans to call this tribe "Esepsi" and not Arabic/Persianized Yosufzai. 

Muslim and other Classical Sources:

Al Biruni's Tarikh al Hind (referring to the period around 1000 AD) mentions 'rebellious' Afghans as 'Hindus', but he himself never trekked into the tribal lands, but only passed by them.  The first Muslim references to Afghans are to be found in the Hudud al Alam of 982AD (372 H).  That speaks of a village in Gardez as being inhabited by Afghans.  It also speaks of a King in "Ninhar" which is obviously Ningrahar (Eastern Afghan province),  who shows a public display of conversion to Islam, even though he has over 30 wives which were described as "Muslim, Afghan, and Hindu" Wives.  The distinction between Muslim, Hindu, and Afghan is very intriguing.  Because this shows that that they were not considered Muslim, nor Hindu, but rather something else.  Afghans today are very superstitous and believe in spirits, demons, and witches as they had before the emergence of Islam.
 
Al-Utbi, the Ghaznavid chronicler says that recruitment for his army was answered by Afghans and the 'Khalaj' (Khalji/Ghalji).  According to him, he enlisted "thousands."  With these armies he twice defeated the Hindushahi King Jaipal in Laghman and Ningrahar, and drove him out of the upper Kabul valley, capturing immense treasures and nearly 200 elephants.  His impact into India was largely in part due to levies raised from Afghan tribes, whose homes were so close to Ghazni, and his enlistment of thousands of Afghans and Ghalji was also partly because of his own memory that in his time so many of his own tribal followers were motivated to embrace Islam.  Another reason for the conversion might also be the proximity of Ghazni to the Afghan frontier. Al Utbi further sites that Afghans and Ghalji made a part of Mahmuds army and was sent on his expedition to Balkh.  

The Afghans also created quite a few dynasties in India, including the Khilji, Sori, Lodhi dynasties.

Who Are the Afghans?

There are many theories as to the origins of the Afghans.  One of them traces them to Semitic origins, while others trace them to Aryans.  The real truth behind their origins is not that cut and clear.  The region known as Afghanistan has been invaded by countless hordes of Central Asian nomads, each of them leaving their impact in the region, and on its peoples.  I will delve a little into their origins as traced by classical and modern scholars.

Jewish/Semitic Origins Theory

This classical theory is based on Niamatulla's Makhzan-i-Afghani and Hamdulla Mustaufi's Tarikh-i-Guzida: one of Prophet Ibrahim's descendents, Talut (or Saul) had two sons, one of whom was named Irmiya or Jeremia. Irmiya had a son named Afghan, who is supposed to have given the name to the Afghan people. Tareekh-e-Sher Shahi states that Bakht Nasr who invaded Jerusalem and destroyed it, expelled Jewish tribes, including sons of Afghan, from their homeland. During the days of the Babylonian captivity when the Jews were scattered, one of the tribes settled in the Hari Rud area of modern (south) Afghanistan. Pathan legend states that they accepted Islam during the time of the Prophet when a group of their kinsmen (Jews) living in Arabia sent word to them that the true Prophet of God as prophesied in their scriptures had appeared in Mecca. The Afghans, the story goes, sent a delegation to Arabia headed by one Imraul Qais who met the Prophet, embraced Islam, came back and converted the entire tribe to the new religion. The Prophet was so pleased with Qais that he gave him the name of Abdur Rashid, called him Malik (king) and Pehtan (keel or rudder of a ship) for showing his people the path of Islam.

This theory was propagated by Jewish scholars, but most modern scholars reject this was created by Afghans to explain their forgotten pagan past.  The only tribe of Afghans that have some similarity to Jews are the Apridi tribes of the Khyber region.  Apridi has a name that is very similar to the "Aparutae"  Aparu, being the regional name for Hebrews in ancient times.  This tribe was mentioned by Herodotus as well.  If there were any lost Israelite tribes in Afghanistan, they would soon be swept under the wind by massive migrations by Central Asian nomads from the steppes, most prominent of all the Sakae.

Pakhtuns/Afghan Language and their Relationship with the Saka

My understanding is that Afghans are descendants of not only Scythians (most likely Amurgian Scythes from Ferghana Valley) who invaded the region in their prominent years, but actually descendants of Sakae nomads who entered the region BEFORE the Aryans arrived on the scene.  The Scythians were the original settlers of Paktra/Bactria.  This was concluded by French and Russian archaeologists in the early 20th century after they found Scythian relics buried in Bactria that were dated older than the Persian.  Its also been cited by the Iran Chamber Society:
 
"The original population of Bactria were largely Scythian. Apparently the Aryans who came over and took control, formed a military aristocracy over a technologically less developed people - as was the case with early Greeks, Romans and Gauls."

This also explains their language as well.  Pashto is considered and eastern Iranian languags, most eastern Iranian languages are spoken in the Hindu Kush/Pamir mountain ranges.  This range was occupied by Scythians who migrated south from Ferghana.  One characteristic of Eastern Iranian languages is their replacing of the letter "D" with the letter "L."

Here are some simple examples:

Farsi - Padar (Father)
Pashto - Pilar

Farsi - Didan (To see)
Pashto - Lidal

Farsi - Diwaneh (Crazy)
Pashto - Liwaneh

The Scythian rulers of Gandhara are known from their coins (numismatic evidence) as having the exact same habit.

In ancient Kharoshti inscriptions:

"Spalagadama" (spada=army, ga diminutive, dama=leader, cf. Latin dominus);
"Spala Hura" (spada=army, ahura=spirit, god, cf. Ahuramazda);
"Chastana" (cf. Pashto chashtan, Pakhtu tsakhtan=master, husband).

Being an Eastern Iranian langauge, Pashto has similarities with ancient Bactrian language, as well as other easter Iranian languages.  It is in my belief that Afghans are descendants of Ancient Scythians, who have settled and been superimposed by other Scythian tribes, as well as the Hephtalites/White Huns (who make up the tribal confederacy of the Ghaljay Afghans).  After the Arab, Turk, and Mongol invasions of Afghans in the last millenia, today many Afghans are a mix of many different peoples that perfectly reflect their lands, being at the crossroads of many great civilizations. 

Finally, if one is not satisfied as to whether the Afghans are descendants of the Saka/Scythians, one only has to ask an Afghan what does "Saka" mean in Pashto, and they will tell you, a blood brother.



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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak



Replies:
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 19-Jun-2005 at 15:13
Very interesting read, thank you.

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Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 19-Jun-2005 at 15:31

No problem.  I have more information on the Hephtalites as well, and their relationship with the Afghan tribe of Ghaljay.  Check this section soon.



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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak


Posted By: Rakhsh
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2005 at 21:35
There is no Afghan it is all Iran..... yeah baby yeah

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Never under estimate the predictablity of stupidity! - Bullet Tooth Tony


Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 17:03

Originally posted by Rakhsh

There is no Afghan it is all Iran..... yeah baby yeah

Your speaking to one right now. 



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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 17:43

Originally posted by Rakhsh

There is no Afghan it is all Iran..... yeah baby yeah

lol? I don't quite understand what you mean by this.



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Posted By: Rakhsh
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 18:51
I mean that Afghanistan is a construct, they are the same as Iranians, it did not exist till 100 or so years ago. I have no problems with Afghani's I have met heaps who speak afrsi or who say they are Persians or Iranians, but by their accent I can tell their Afghani's.... Other Iranians make fun of them and point it out and are even racist, the way I see it we are brothers and the same, So I always defend them. But maybe these are the few who feel they are Iranians dunno maybe your an Afghani and not Iranian then.

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Never under estimate the predictablity of stupidity! - Bullet Tooth Tony


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 18:54
I agree on the prejudice and how disgraceful and wrong it is, but I am not sure about what you're saying about Afghan, I think Afghanan explained a while ago that it is word derived from Pakhton. (?)

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Posted By: Rakhsh
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 19:17

 either way we are still all brothers from one family, just different mothers and fathers

to Quote a movie (forgot the name) "Hay my brother from a different mother!"



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Never under estimate the predictablity of stupidity! - Bullet Tooth Tony


Posted By: PrznKonectoid
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 20:51
Yeah I think the division between Afghan and Iranian, between us makes us weaker. Just imagine if we were one nation, as we were in the beginning of history.

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Want to know more on ancient Iran?
http://www.parsaworld.com - http://www.parsaworld.com
or join our forums
FORUM


Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 21:02

Its just a little misunderstanding I guess. 

BTW, I have plenty of Iranian friends (2 Muslim ones, and 3 Bahai ones).  We all get along pretty great.  I love to speak Farsi with them and learn the dialectical differences, and different slangs.

The real difference between Farsi and Afghan Farsi (Dari) is just the way we say our words.  For example, listen to this Afghan Song and I'll let you find the differences:

http://media.putfile.com/Ehsan-Aman---Khoda-Haffez - http://media.putfile.com/Ehsan-Aman---Khoda-Haffez

 

 

 



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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak


Posted By: oslonor
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 02:38
Originally posted by Afghanan

Its just a little misunderstanding I guess. 

BTW, I have plenty of Iranian friends (2 Muslim ones, and 3 Bahai ones).  We all get along pretty great.  I love to speak Farsi with them and learn the dialectical differences, and different slangs.

The real difference between Farsi and Afghan Farsi (Dari) is just the way we say our words.  For example, listen to this Afghan Song and I'll let you find the differences:

http://media.putfile.com/Ehsan-Aman---Khoda-Haffez - http://media.putfile.com/Ehsan-Aman---Khoda-Haffez

 


you are welcome to post on Afghani section in our Aryan Forum



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Posted By: PrznKonectoid
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 01:12

Yeah, it sucks, all these "borders were drawn up by colonial powers or by civil wars in the modern era. I mean Iran, some areas of Tajikistan, Most Afghanis, and Kurds should really be one Aryan nation. The Arabs have their pan-Arab, pan-Islamic movement, the turks have their pan-Turks movement and so on. Iranians have become so distanced from eachother due to alien customs and alien religions.



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Want to know more on ancient Iran?
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 08:44
I think dari was in use in Eastern Iran too, Ferdowsi wrote the Shahnameh originally in Dari (correct me if I am wrong). 

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Posted By: PrznKonectoid
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 10:16
I think Ferdowsi drew from both Dari and Farsi. The reason was he was looking for Iranian words, when one did not have an Iranian (becuz it had been replaced by arabic) he looked to the other language to substitute in a word. He supposedly wrote the Shahnameh with almost no Arabic.

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Want to know more on ancient Iran?
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 22:56
First off, Dari, Farsi, and Tajiki are the same language. Dari and Farsi are synonmous and "Tajiki" is a Soviet invention. They use "Dari," exclusively, in Afghanistan for political reasons. For the most part, the ruling Pashtun ethnic group are very anti-Persian, and see any promotion of the Persian language or ethnicity as being traitorous.


Posted By: Rakhsh
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 06:07
ohh why is that?

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Never under estimate the predictablity of stupidity! - Bullet Tooth Tony


Posted By: Behi
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 06:13
Farsi???? Do u like Arabic name of ur language???
please use true one " PARSI "

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Posted By: Jhangora
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 06:25
Nice post Afghanan.One thing isn't clear to me though.U urself say that today's Afghanistan is composed of many ethnicities.R u interested in knowing our views on the origin of Afghanistan or of the Pashtoons.

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Jai Badri Vishal


Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 09:48

Originally posted by DFront21

First off, Dari, Farsi, and Tajiki are the same language. Dari and Farsi are synonmous and "Tajiki" is a Soviet invention. They use "Dari," exclusively, in Afghanistan for political reasons. For the most part, the ruling Pashtun ethnic group are very anti-Persian, and see any promotion of the Persian language or ethnicity as being traitorous.

Dari, Farsi, and Tajiki are not EXACTLY the same language.  I have heard all three spoken.  There is a distinct dialectical difference, but the way it is written is EXACTLY the same (if all 3 are written in Perso-Arabic script).  Furthermore, Tajiki also refers to languages that are not Farsi, ie. the Eastern Iranian languages of Shugni, Ishkeshmi, Sangleci, Munji, etc.  These languages are also called "Pamiri" and the people are sometimes referred to as "Mountain Tajik/Kohistani Tajik."

I also disagree that the ruling Pashtun ethnic group, throughout history, has ever been against Persian.  From the country's founder - Ahmad Shah Abdali (who wrote Persian poetry and Pashto poetry), to the latest leader Karzai, are very fluent in Persian.  Ahmad Shah Abdali sent his sons to be taught by Persians, and his son changed the capital from Kandahar (predominantly Pashto speaking to Kabul which is predominantly Farsi speaking). 

Pashto was made an official language of the Afghan state in the 20th century.

The only leader of anti-Persian repute was Mullah Omar and the Taliban who sided in favor of Pashto to be the language of his army and government officers and who switched the capital back temporarily to Kandahar.

The problem in Afghanistan between Farsi and Pashto stems from Afghan government's lack of standard curriculum in different provinces.  Farsi and Pashto are BOTH official languages of the state.  The problem lies that each province does not have proper or adequate teachers to teach either.

For instance, in Kandahar, Pashto is the medium for teaching and Farsi is also taught, but not with the same emphasis as Pashto.  When a Kandahari goes to University in Kabul, his understanding of Farsi is lacking and he would then complain, but with no resolution.

In Badakhshan or Kabul for instance, Farsi is the medium for teaching, but the students do get some remedial instruction in Pashto that they never apply and complain as to why they even have to learn it.  There is also a lack of Pashto teachers in Afghanistan.

All major cities in Afghanistan, the universal language is Farsi, although today the government is more concerned with the intrusion of English into both Farsi and Pashto.  Karzais gov't is going to fine businesses who do not change their signs and slogans back to Farsi and Pashto.



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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak


Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 09:50

Originally posted by katulakatula

Nice post Afghanan.One thing isn't clear to me though.U urself say that today's Afghanistan is composed of many ethnicities.R u interested in knowing our views on the origin of Afghanistan or of the Pashtoons.

My basis was from a historical standpoint on the word Afghan, and its origins.  The national term "Afghan" refers to all citizens of the country.



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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak


Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 09:51

Originally posted by Land of Aryan

Farsi???? Do u like Arabic name of ur language???
please use true one " PARSI "

Ironically, Pashtuns are the only ones in the country who refer to the language as Parsi.



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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak


Posted By: Rakhsh
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 21:25
interesting, what does parsi or farsi matter?

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Never under estimate the predictablity of stupidity! - Bullet Tooth Tony


Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 19:57

I believe Farsi is the Arab corruption of Parsi (the original language).   Arabs do not have a "P" in their alphabet.

 



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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak


Posted By: AFG-PaShTuN
Date Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 00:02

THnak you heaps dear!

 

It was a great read!



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Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 23-Jan-2006 at 23:25
No Problem.

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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak


Posted By: cyrus
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 07:52
Thank you Afghanan,

This is what I think:

Pashtuns have political power where as Parsi speaking people dont, they have been singled out for the last 100 years and therfore Pashtun language has grown rapidly, one the reasons is Pakistan.

From the other side, there was a survey on BBC asking Iranians, Afghans and Tajiks if they like the Parsi triangle and the only people who didnt want it was Pashtun in Afghanistan, Tajiks and Iranians wanted it and Dari speaking ones as well but not Pashtu speaking.

Why is that ?



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Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 09:18

Cyrus,

The first problem with Pashtuns and Parsi is that Pashto is a different language from Parsi.   If there was to be a Parsi literary/linguistic triangle it could threaten the native Pashto speaking populations of Afghanistan. 

The other problem Pashto speakers have with Farsi-speaking people is that a Pashtun is willing to learn Parsi, but Parsis are not willing to learn Pashto (because there was no need to), even though the founder of nation was Pashtun.  Ahmad Shah Abdali, the founder of the Durrani empire and Afghanistan was bilingual in both Farsi and Pashto.  The governments of Afghanistan were to enlist Pashto as a medium of higher education after King Amanullah Khans royal decree, and it was promoted for a time.  Unfortunately, the Soviet Invasion had stopped all plans of development and this has hurt the language more than anything.

In the meantime, in Pakistan where the war in Afghanistan did not destroy their infrastructure , the giant influx of Afghan refugees also helped a revival of Pashto literature, arts, and music there.

During the Civil War, the different factions were split on ethnic lines and language again became a hot issue.   The Pashtun factions blamed the Tajik factions of getting assistance from the Russians, India, and Iran while they received assistance from Pakistan, and Arab countries.  Today, whenever the issue of language arises, it is a contentious issue among all Afghans because Pashtuns do not want to see their language marginalized and many Uzbek or Persian speaking people do not want to speak the language of the people whom they fought during the Civil War.

I hope that explains some of the difficulties of language in Afghanistan to you.



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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak


Posted By: cyrus
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 16:20

Thank you many times my friend.

One question: I read that Pashtun is classified as Eastern Irani language.
What are your thoughts about this and what does this classification based on ?
I have many Pashtun friends and there are many common words in Pashtun with Parsi, Does it mean Pashtun is just another dialect or it was existed way before Parsi ?

Thank you.





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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 18:37

It means they have the same root. IE that they separated from each other and evolved indepentently some three thousand years ago.



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Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 20:35
Originally posted by cyrus

Thank you many times my friend.

One question: I read that Pashtun is classified as Eastern Irani language.
What are your thoughts about this and what does this classification based on ?
I have many Pashtun friends and there are many common words in Pashtun with Parsi, Does it mean Pashtun is just another dialect or it was existed way before Parsi ?

Thank you.

Cyrus thank you for your reply. 

First thing we should understand is that Iranian language does not necessarily mean Persian.  Eastern Iranian is a language group that has existed alongside Western Iranian for over a millenia.  The most famous Eastern Iranian language was Bactrian, the language of Bactria.  Parsi and Bactrian both had the same root and were cousins to each other.  When the Arab invasion insued, the Arabs adopted Persian culture and spoke Farsi, while Bactrian was fast being replaced throughout Central Asia by the adopted language of the Arab conquerors.  Some related languages of Bactrian, (which were isolated from Bactrian proper for an untold amount of time), evolved into languages we call Eastern Iranian.

These languages include - Pashto/Pakhto, Roshani/Rokhani, Bartangi, Yidgha-Munji, Sanglechi/Ishkashmi, Wakhi, Bartangi, etc.  Most of these languages are spoken in small pockets throughout the Pamir mountains, witih Pashto being the most prevalent of all.



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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak


Posted By: Miller
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 21:26
Pashtu is closest to Avestan and Dari (spoken by zoroastrians in Yazd and not to be confused by what Persian is called in Afghanistan) read about it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_languages - here


Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 06:51
I heard there's a Pashtoon tribe called Sarban-is it true? One of the Byzantine emperors once called Serbs-Sarbani...maybe there's a distant connection... 


Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 00:55

Sarban, Bitan, Ghurghusht, were supposedly the 3 sons of Qais, a characater that was in the Makhzani Afghani, which is supposed to be the geneology and origin of the Afghans written by Nematullah , a court scribe of the Moghal Emperor Jahangir around 1612.  This and other books like "Khulasat'ul Ansab" were written by descendants of Afghans in India who most likely did not have a good grasping of Pashto.  Most of these books were written in Persian actually.

The 3 sons of Qais were supposedly the patriarchs of the Pashtun tribes.  Sarban had a son named Sharkbun , who then had 2 or 3 sons (depending on which tribe you ask) and they gave rise to such tribes as : Popalzai (Sons of Popal), Alekozais (Sons of Alek), Barakzais, Achakzais, Sadozais/Durranis, etc.

Sarbans other son, Kharshbun, gave rise to tribes like Yusufzais, Ghoriakhels, Mohmands, etc.

There is much more tribes and it would take me very long to go through all of them so I'll leave it at that.

I would take the tribal geneologies with a grain of salt.



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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak


Posted By: Socrates
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 06:14
Thanks for the info...


Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 09:55
Originally posted by Afghanan

Sarban, Bitan, Ghurghusht, were supposedly the 3 sons of Qais, a characater that was in the Makhzani Afghani, which is supposed to be the geneology and origin of the Afghans written by Nematullah , a court scribe of the Moghal Emperor Jahangir around 1612.  This and other books like "Khulasat'ul Ansab" were written by descendants of Afghans in India who most likely did not have a good grasping of Pashto.  Most of these books were written in Persian actually.

The 3 sons of Qais were supposedly the patriarchs of the Pashtun tribes.  Sarban had a son named Sharkbun , who then had 2 or 3 sons (depending on which tribe you ask) and they gave rise to such tribes as : Popalzai (Sons of Popal), Alekozais (Sons of Alek), Barakzais, Achakzais, Sadozais/Durranis, etc.

Sarbans other son, Kharshbun, gave rise to tribes like Yusufzais, Ghoriakhels, Mohmands, etc.

There is much more tribes and it would take me very long to go through all of them so I'll leave it at that.

I would take the tribal geneologies with a grain of salt.

Nematullah, was a story teller at best not a historian or geneologist



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Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 18:34

afghans come from many different ethnicities, but mostly they are of iranian stock:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_people

Pashtun

Main article: Pashtun

Pashtun or Pakhtun, are a warlike, fierce, and independent people that reside mainly in southern and eastern Afghanistan and western Pakistan. Considerable pockets also exist throughout other parts of Afghanistan. Smaller groups of Pashtuns are also found in Iran and India as well. Pashtun culture is ancient and much of it is yet to be recorded in contemporary times. There are many conflicting theories, some contemporary, some ancient, about the origins of the Pashtun people, both among historians and the Pashtun themselves. Most scholars agree that the Pashtuns are of Iranian stock and speak an eastern Iranian language. According to the writer W.K. Frazier Tyler writing in his book Afghanistan, "The word Afghan… first appears in history in the Hudud-al-Alam, a work by an unknown Arab geographer who wrote in 982 AD." Until the advent of the modern Afghan state in the 18th century, the word Afghan had been synonymous with Pashtun.

Tajik

Main article: Tajiks

The Tajiks are amongst the oldest inhabitants of the region, and can trace their roots back to the original Iranian peoples that settled Central-Asia in ancient times, such as the Bactrians, Sogdians, and Parthians, as well as Persians who fled to Central-Asia during Arab Islamic expansion. The Tajiks also comprise the majority population of Tajikistan and are found in large numbers in Uzbekistan and Iran as well as the western Pakistan and Xinjiang province of China. A related group in Afghanistan known as the Farsiwan are often affiliated with the Tajiks, but are generally of the Shia sect and are mostly distinct from the Hazaras as the Farsiwans are a Mediterrean people and are basically almost identical to the Persians of Iran. Tajiks are, by contrast, considered the Persians of Central Asia.

Hazara

Main article: Hazara

Historically, the Hazara seem to have Turkic-Mongolian origins, but with some Caucasoid admixture from surrounding groups. Linguistically though the Hazara speak Dari, but their variant is interspersed with more Mongolian words, but this is also the case with many Turkic languages such as Uzbek. It may simply be the case that the Hazara are of Uighur Turkic origin as many Turks accompanied the Mongol armies or arrived in the region long before the Mongols. It is however commonly believed by many Afghans that the Hazara are descendants of Genghis Khan's army, which marched into the area during the 12th century. Proponents of this view hold that many of the Mongol soldiers and their family members settled in the area and remained there after the Mongol empire dissolved in the 13th century, converting to Islam and adopting local customs. The theory regarding a more Turkic origin for the Hazara has equal validity and the relatively small number of actual Mongols in comparison to Turks makes it more likely that the Hazara are descendents of Turkic invaders who were Persianized over time. Unlike most Afghans the Hazara are Shia, which has often set them apart from their neighbors.

Uzbek

Main article: Uzbek

The Uzbeks are the main Turkic people of Afghanistan and are found mainly in the northern regions of the country. Most likely the Uzbeks migrated with a wave of Turkic invaders and intermingled with local Iranian tribes over time to become the ethnic group they are today. By the 1500s the Uzbeks had settled throughout Central Asia and reached Afghanistan following the conquests of Muhammad Shibani. Most Uzbeks are Sunni Muslim and are closely related to the Turkmen who also can be found in Afghanistan.

Turkmen

Main article: Turkmen people

The Turkmen are the smaller Turkic group who can also be found in neighoring Turkmenistan. Largely Sunni Muslim, their origins are very similar to that of the Uzbeks.

Baluch

Main article: Baloch

The Baluch are another Iranian ethnic group that numbers around 200,000 in Afghanistan. The main Baloch areas located in Balochistan province in Pakistan and Sistan and Baluchistan province of Iran. Many also live in southern Afghanistan. They are most likely an offshoot of the Kurds and reached Afghanistan sometime between 1000 and 1300 BCE. Mainly pastoral and desert dwellers, the Baluch are also Sunni Muslim.

Nuristani

Main article: Nuristani

The Nuristani are an Indo-Iranian people, representing a third branch of independent of the Iranian and Indo-Aryan groups, who live in isolated regions of northeastern Afghanistan. Better known historically as the Kafirs of what was once known as Kafiristan (now called Nuristan), they were forcibly converted to Islam during the rule of "Iron" Amir Abdur Rahman and their country was renamed "Nuristan" or "Land of Light" as in the light of Islam. Many Nuristanis believe that they are the descendents of Alexander's Greeks, but there is a lack of genetic evidence for this and they are more than likely an isolated pocket of early Aryan invaders. They are largely Sunni Muslim.



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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: kingofmazanderan
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 16:01

 

Just imagin it brothers if Afghanistan and turkmenistan kazakhstan and Uzbeckistan were back with iran.  That would make Iran one of the largest countries on the planet.  Or at least in the top ten i think.   Other countries with Indo Aryan people are Turkey and i guess thats all i can think of for now. 



Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 17:12
i will make a new thread about iranian people in asia.

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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 15:00

Here is some more information about the Sassanian inscription of the word Afghan:

 

"...Some ancestors of the durrani and yousafzai tribes were men of the sassani courts. The "Shah Nama" of Firdausi as follows:

The mighty soldiers had gathered round the castle,
Armed with golden cudgels and golden helmets,
Their commander was karen kawgan,
Lead by the valiant general, awgan

When kaikhusro saw the battle of Turks
In which the sun shone no more on earth,
He glanced at awa and samkanian
Two pugnacious lions of the battlefield

Awa was Samkanian's son, and these tow persons were heroes of the era of Kaikhusro who are mentioned in the great battle with Afrasiab."

 

More Information located by clicking here: 

http://www.afghanan.net/pashto/pashtunwali/afghan.htm - http://www.afghanan.net/pashto/pashtunwali/afghan.htm

 

--

 

Can anybody back up these claims from the Sassanian scripts?  I want to test its validity.

 



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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak


Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 17:15
it is said that afghans are the purest ancient iranians left. not sure if that is true or not.

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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 17:20
i guess thats what every iranian(iranic) group claims eh.   Afghanan ror, you know the flag during the time of Daud's time with the eagle.  I believe it was the divine bird of King Yama.  Im not entirely sure, but could anyone kindly elaborate more.


Posted By: Gharanai
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 17:46

First of all my congrats to Dear brother Afghanan on posting such and informative and detailed article.
It really is a great work and is one which has to be appreciated.

Afterwards!
Dear Rakhsh,
I really don't know if you are just kidding or you don't realy have a detailed knowledge about history.
The words you used in your post were really with no background and prove if you have any please do let me know.
You said:

Originally posted by Rakhsh

I mean that Afghanistan is a construct, they are the same as Iranians, it did not exist till 100 or so years ago.

I would like to let you know (in case you are not familier), before writing something you better know what you are saying; the country Afghanistan become in to existence in the year 1747 AD which is (259) years from now and you are saying that it did'nt exixt till 100 years ago, I can't do anything else but laughing on this point.
You better check the map of the http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9491&PN=1 - Durrani Empire and tell me the boundries of it.

Beside that I would like to add one more thing that the Afghans has better than most others, that is they have never been occupied, who ever as come to this land has tasted the real taste of war, a good example of it could be Alexander the Great, the person who defeated the mighty Persian Empire but check out what he said about Afghans.

I guess you have got my points and I also know that I have gone a bit harsh (to me it is) but if my words has hurt anyone, I am extreamly sorry for it but the fact can not be changed.

One more thing that I would like to clearify to all members of All Empires that the word Afghani doesn't show that a person is from Afghanistan but it is the Code for Currency of Afghanistan and national(s) of Afghanistan is/are called Afghan(s); if anyone has any doubt regarding this claim please refere to this site http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/af.html - Click Here .
So please do consider this fact in future.



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Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 17:55

afghanistan was part of thhe persian empire when alexander invaded. infact, when the king lost in the west, he went to afghanistan, gather up another army of afghans, and lost again.

but the iranians in afghanistan fought a kind of "guerilla" warfare against alexander.

either way, it doesnt matter whether afghanistan was part of iran or not, (actually, when the british took it it was iranian), afghans are iranians, as well as tajiks.

the iranian nations do not need to become one country again, but a union of nations.



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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: Gharanai
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 18:19
Originally posted by prsn41ife

 afghans are iranians, as well as tajiks.

I don't think so, you may say they were a part of Iran but you may never say Afghans are Iranians, because Iranians have their custom and Afghans (Pashtuns) have their own, each has his own country, each has different languages, different looks, diiferent attitude and different rules and regulations. So I really don't think if you could say the are Iranians.



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Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 18:25

no, not afghans are iranian as in from iran, i mean an iranic people.



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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: Gharanai
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 18:36
Then wouldn't it be best to write the right word in the first place?

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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 18:41

Originally posted by prsn41ife

it is said that afghans are the purest ancient iranians left. not sure if that is true or not.

I would say Gorani Kurds, there are still Zaroastrians among them and their language is very close to Sassanid Pahlavi.



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Posted By: Perspolis
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 05:49
Paktoons hate to loose their power in afghanistan, so they prevent from united Aryans country and act like our enemies. Sorry my dear pashtuns but it is a fact.


Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 06:22
afghans are Turks Tribes by new pan-turkist researchs

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Anfører


Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 06:29
A turk guy was caliming about 65% of afghanistan's populatin is turk( turkmen, uzbek, hazara,aymak) and other such as tajiks and pashtuns turk Persianized tribes. 

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Anfører


Posted By: Gharanai
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 06:47

Originally posted by sirius99

A turk guy was caliming about 65% of afghanistan's populatin is turk( turkmen, uzbek, hazara,aymak) and other such as tajiks and pashtuns turk Persianized tribes. 

Dear I think you have got it totaly vice-versa, the percentage of Pashtuns in Afghanistan is around 60-65% the rest are the turkmen, uzbek, hazara,aymak, baluch, pashahe and others.



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Posted By: merced12
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 06:59
Originally posted by Gharanai

Originally posted by sirius99

A turk guy was caliming about 65% of afghanistan's populatin is turk( turkmen, uzbek, hazara,aymak) and other such as tajiks and pashtuns turk Persianized tribes. 

Dear I think you have good it totaly vice-versa, the percentage of Pashtuns in Afghanistan is around 60-65% the rest are the turkmen, uzbek, hazara,aymak, baluch, pashahe and others.

who is he caliming %65 afg. turk.please show message



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http://www.turks.org.uk/ - http://www.turks.org.uk/
16th century world;
Ottomans all Roman orients
Safavids in Persia
Babur in india
`azerbaycan bayragini karabagdan asacagim``


Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 23:42

There has NEVER been a proper census done in Afghanistan. 

Also, some ethnic groups adopt language and customs of another and its very hard to pinpoint who is who.

Pashtun = Pashtuns who are spread in every corner of Afghanistan.  After 200 years, many of them in major cities speak Persian better than local Farsi speakers.

Tajik = Many Tajiks have mixed with Hazaras, Pashtuns, and Uzbeks, some adopting their language and habits as well.  Many Tajiks are very good Buzkashi players and play this game better than the Turkic/Uzbek peoples.

Hazaras = Their Mongol and Turkic pasts do not resemble their Shiite and Persian customs.  Their language is also Persian, but with some Mongol/Turkic admixture and accent.

And finally the Nuristani.  They spoke their own Dardic language and now most of them speak Pashto.



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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak


Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 23:43
Originally posted by Afghanan

Here is some more information about the Sassanian inscription of the word Afghan:

 

"...Some ancestors of the durrani and yousafzai tribes were men of the sassani courts. The "Shah Nama" of Firdausi as follows:

The mighty soldiers had gathered round the castle,
Armed with golden cudgels and golden helmets,
Their commander was karen kawgan,
Lead by the valiant general, awgan

When kaikhusro saw the battle of Turks
In which the sun shone no more on earth,
He glanced at awa and samkanian
Two pugnacious lions of the battlefield

Awa was Samkanian's son, and these tow persons were heroes of the era of Kaikhusro who are mentioned in the great battle with Afrasiab."

 

More Information located by clicking here: 

http://www.afghanan.net/pashto/pashtunwali/afghan.htm - http://www.afghanan.net/pashto/pashtunwali/afghan.htm

 

--

 

Can anybody back up these claims from the Sassanian scripts?  I want to test its validity.

 

I'm still waiting for some help on this. 



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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak


Posted By: oslonor
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 06:00
The difference between Afghanistan and Iran is Afghanistan is ancient Persia which has kept its indepedence and Iran or Persia has fallen into turkish hands. Also to explain that some people in Iran imagine that because Afghans and Iranians speak Persian or Dari then  Afghans and Iranians are brothers or the same people with the same culture. That is not actually the case for many Iranians. Those Iranians who are from Tehran, Isfahan or Azerbaijan, they do not share the same culture with Afghans. The reason  is those Iranians have a turkish culture from Caucasus and Afghans have an ancient  culture from central asia. This is very clear to an afghan by just talking a few minutes to an Iranian from Tehran. They only share the same language but with different culture and history. One is related to the history of Caucasus and the other is related to the history of central asia. To read more about it please visit my blog on.

The Rise of Afghan Empire
http://afghanempire.blogspot.com


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Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 13:20
Originally posted by oslonor

The difference between Afghanistan and Iran is Afghanistan is ancient Persia which has kept its indepedence and Iran or Persia has fallen into turkish hands. Also to explain that some people in Iran imagine that because Afghans and Iranians speak Persian or Dari then  Afghans and Iranians are brothers or the same people with the same culture. That is not actually the case for many Iranians. Those Iranians who are from Tehran, Isfahan or Azerbaijan, they do not share the same culture with Afghans. The reason  is those Iranians have a turkish culture from Caucasus and Afghans have an ancient  culture from central asia. This is very clear to an afghan by just talking a few minutes to an Iranian from Tehran. They only share the same language but with different culture and history. One is related to the history of Caucasus and the other is related to the history of central asia. To read more about it please visit my blog on.

The Rise of Afghan Empire
http://afghanempire.blogspot.com


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Anfører


Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 13:21



humorous Idea.


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Anfører


Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 13:48

this guys doesnt know what he is talking about.

the culture of the caucuses and central asia is heavily influenced by iranian culture, not the other way around.

oslonor is pretty crazy



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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: Behi
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 14:36
@Oslonor:
How long did you live in Tehran??
Have you ever vist Iran???


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Posted By: Gharanai
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 14:51

Originally posted by oslonor

The difference between Afghanistan and Iran is Afghanistan is ancient Persia which has kept its indepedence and Iran or Persia has fallen into turkish hands. Also to explain that some people in Iran imagine that because Afghans and Iranians speak Persian or Dari then  Afghans and Iranians are brothers or the same people with the same culture. That is not actually the case for many Iranians. Those Iranians who are from Tehran, Isfahan or Azerbaijan, they do not share the same culture with Afghans. The reason  is those Iranians have a turkish culture from Caucasus and Afghans have an ancient  culture from central asia. This is very clear to an afghan by just talking a few minutes to an Iranian from Tehran. They only share the same language but with different culture and history. One is related to the history of Caucasus and the other is related to the history of central asia. To read more about it please visit my blog on.

The Rise of Afghan Empire
http://afghanempire.blogspot.com

Dear oslonor,
That was a very nice reply along with some informative link, thanks alot for sharing the link.



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Posted By: oslonor
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 15:15
Originally posted by Land of Aryan

@Oslonor:
How long did you live in Tehran??
Have you ever vist Iran???


I have viisted central asia. My wife is Persian and knows about Iran. Many of my posts are written by her. My arguments are very simple. If you visit Tehran and Baku and Herat and then somebody asks you how did Tehran look like? Was Tehran similar to Baku or Herat? You will say that Tehran was similar to Baku and not Herat. That is the difference between a culture of Caucasus and a culture from Central Asia. Baku is caucasus and Herat is central asian culture. I think everybody agrees with it. But other parts of Iran have a central asian culture such as Khorasan, Fars, Lorestan etc. If you live in Tehran and have the culture of Tehran then your culture is a turkish culture.


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Posted By: Gharanai
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 15:29

Originally posted by sirius99




humorous Idea.

I think that's the best way to upward the number of your posts, by just saying  .



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Posted By: oslonor
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 15:33
Originally posted by prsn41ife

this guys doesnt know what he is talking about.

the culture of the caucuses and central asia is heavily influenced by iranian culture, not the other way around.

oslonor is pretty crazy



This is a very general statement. You can not claim that the culture of Khorasan is the same as the culture of Azerbaijan.


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Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 15:38

i dont think oslonor realizes that teh culture celebrated in central asia and the caucusus is actually iranian.

he probably thinks its afghan.

oslonor, afghanistan was part of iran for a very long time, afghan culture is the same as iranian culture. we speak the same language, have the same celebrations, had the same religions, etc....

the iranian empires didnt even originate in afghanistan, but in modern day iran. and the ancient iranian empires of sogdia and bactria were located in north central asia, not in afghanistan.

trust me, turkic nations have more iranian culture in them then we have turkic culture.  iran is not a turkic nation, its an iranian nation, we just have a large turkic population.

infact, my theory is that azari's are actually turkified iranic peoples, and this is supported by facts. 

if you combine the total iranic population of iran to the total turkic population (for this example, including azari's since they are now turkic although not origionally) iranic people are the majority.

 



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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 15:41
Originally posted by oslonor

Originally posted by prsn41ife

this guys doesnt know what he is talking about.

the culture of the caucuses and central asia is heavily influenced by iranian culture, not the other way around.

oslonor is pretty crazy



This is a very general statement. You can not claim that the culture of Khorasan is the same as the culture of Azerbaijan.

the culture of the republic of azerbaijan is now a mixture of iranian, russian and turkish.

the russians, in an attempt to balkanise iran, instilled these differences that we now see today.  azaris and iranians have always been close, the part taken by russia was made to think that we are different when historically, the azari people are just as iranian as me or zagros, or aryan.



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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: oslonor
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 15:47
Originally posted by prsn41ife

i dont think oslonor realizes that teh culture celebrated in central asia and the caucusus is actually iranian.

he probably thinks its afghan.

oslonor, afghanistan was part of iran for a very long time, afghan culture is the same as iranian culture. we speak the same language, have the same celebrations, had the same religions, etc....

the iranian empires didnt even originate in afghanistan, but in modern day iran. and the ancient iranian empires of sogdia and bactria were located in north central asia, not in afghanistan.

trust me, turkic nations have more iranian culture in them then we have turkic culture.  iran is not a turkic nation, its an iranian nation, we just have a large turkic population.

infact, my theory is that azari's are actually turkified iranic peoples, and this is supported by facts. 

if you combine the total iranic population of iran to the total turkic population (for this example, including azari's since they are now turkic although not origionally) iranic people are the majority.

 


You are making very general statements. Many events has happened since ancient times. Iran had Saffavids and Qajar dynasties if not talking about the current turkish Islamic Republic today. Some parts of Iran have central asian culture. Other parts of Iran such as Tehran, Isfahan and Azerbaijan have a turkish culture from Caucasus. Making general statements about ancient history does not explain today's Iran. It is very clear that Azerbaijan's culture is very different form Khorasan culture. Any Iranian can tell you that. Are you saying that is not the case? I am talking about Iran's Azerbaijan.


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Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 17:13

botht the safavids and the qajars preserved and even enhanced iranian culture. they adopted all aspects of iranian culture.

infact they became so iranian that they called iran persia, and called themselves kings of persia.

oslonor, you dont know anything about iran, especially by saying that iran is a turkish islamic republic or that isfahan and the other cities have a turkish culture.

are you anti turk or something? thats what it seems like, it seems like you blame everything on turks.



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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 19:15

Mohtaram Aghaeh Prsn4life, Oslonor and Gharanai,

Thanks for your replies but please keep them in discussion about Origins of Afghans and not Pan-Iranism.  There is plenty of topics on Pan-Iranism elsewhere.

 

 



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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak


Posted By: oslonor
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 20:19
Originally posted by Afghanan

Mohtaram Aghaeh Prsn4life, Oslonor and Gharanai,

Thanks for your replies but please keep them in discussion about Origins of Afghans and not Pan-Iranism.  There is plenty of topics on Pan-Iranism elsewhere.



We are trying to make the distinction between Afghanistan and IRan. This would explain what is Afghan culture.


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Posted By: oslonor
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 20:21
Originally posted by prsn41ife

botht the safavids and the qajars preserved and even enhanced iranian culture. they adopted all aspects of iranian culture.

infact they became so iranian that they called iran persia, and called themselves kings of persia.

oslonor, you dont know anything about iran, especially by saying that iran is a turkish islamic republic or that isfahan and the other cities have a turkish culture.

are you anti turk or something? thats what it seems like, it seems like you blame everything on turks.



I am sorry but Afghans are saying the same thing. Afghans are saying that their culture is not the same as  some Iranian from Tehran. Just ask some afghans on this  forum. Please discuss the issues and do not label people anti-turk or this or that. Tehran is similar to Baku than to Herat. Everybody agrees on that.


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Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 20:29
Originally posted by Afghanan

Mohtaram Aghaeh Prsn4life, Oslonor and Gharanai,

Thanks for your replies but please keep them in discussion about Origins of Afghans and not Pan-Iranism.  There is plenty of topics on Pan-Iranism elsewhere.

 

 

there is nothing about pan iranism in this thread.

and pan iranism is not only for iranians from iran, there are afghan pan iranists, tajik pan iranists, kurdish pan iranists, etc...

@ oslonor: i want you to tell me in what ways iran is not culturally attached to afghanistan.

Regarding the topic, afghans are just another iranic tribe, am i not correct?

sorry for my ignorance, but i would also like to know more about the origion of afghans.



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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 20:52

Majority of Iranians are genetically and culturally distinct from Afghans.

 



Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 20:58

which type of iranian are you talking about? many different ethnicities make up iran.

 



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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: oslonor
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 21:34
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

Majority of Iranians are genetically and culturally distinct from Afghans.

 

Yes. There are different ethnic groups in Iran. Some are related to Afghans and some are not.

http://oslonor.proboards60.com/index.cgi?board=af&action=display&thread=1132222702 - This is Persian Afghan Phenotypes click here:

Also culturally Khorasan, Lorestan Fars etc do have a central asian culture similar to Afghans. Other parts of Iran such as Tehran, Isfahan and Azerbaijan have turkish culture from Caucasus.


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Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 21:40
answer my question, tell me in which ways they are different from the iranic peoples of central asia.

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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: oslonor
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 21:42
Originally posted by prsn41ife

Originally posted by Afghanan

Mohtaram Aghaeh Prsn4life, Oslonor and Gharanai,

Thanks for your replies but please keep them in discussion about Origins of Afghans and not Pan-Iranism.  There is plenty of topics on Pan-Iranism elsewhere.

there is nothing about pan iranism in this thread.

and pan iranism is not only for iranians from iran, there are afghan pan iranists, tajik pan iranists, kurdish pan iranists, etc...

@ oslonor: i want you to tell me in what ways iran is not culturally attached to afghanistan.

Regarding the topic, afghans are just another iranic tribe, am i not correct?

sorry for my ignorance, but i would also like to know more about the origion of afghans.



If you listen to what Afghans say, then you will understand the difference. 


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Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 21:44

why cant you just tell me? maybe its because you are pulling this stuff out of your a$$?



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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: oslonor
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 21:46
Originally posted by prsn41ife

why cant you just tell me? maybe its because you are pulling this stuff out of your a$$?



Actually Afghans agreed with me.


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Posted By: Iranian41ife
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 21:53

they havent been to iran have the?

i want you to tell me how the culture of eastern iran differs with the culture of the rest of the iranic world.

enlighten me, i dont care if the other afghans agree with you or not, i just want to know for my own personally knowledge. i waiting....

oslonor, you are a pan iranist, its obvious.  let me tell you the same thing that i tell the pan turks. its a dillusional dream. pans are dangerous, you need to not think the way you do. we are any better than any other race, our cultures are just as mixed as other peoples cultures.

get your dreams of iranic empires out of your head, it will never happen in the modern world.  instead of your imperialistic dream for the iranic race, just try to make our countries better and more united, like the EU.



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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2006 at 11:05
topic re-opened at Afghanan's request.

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Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2006 at 21:19
Thank you Zagros, maybe next thing to do is to delete all the non-discussion posts that wasted a few pages? 

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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak


Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2006 at 00:50

I just wonder about some connections of the Pahtuns with Huns (present day Uyghur or other Turkic people). The following is some linguistic analysis. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Afghan and Aqhon (The people who built Eftalit empire, the name of which is very popular among Uyghur Turks to add at the end of male name)  

Eftalit and abdal (one of the Tura tribes according to the chinese chronicals)

Huar and Avar (also one of the Tura tribes)

Tura tribes were the descendants of Huns according to Chinese chronicals, including Uyghur, Oghuz etc.  

Pushtu people call themselves Pahtun, and the place as Pahtunhua.

Pahta is cotton in Uyghur, which is related to white colour. Pahthun can be changed as Pahtun. Then can we find relation between Pahtun and Aqhun?

Saka means real brother in Pahtun. There were many places in Uyghur region which are called as Ikkisaq (Two Saks), Oghusaq (Oghuz sak), Toqquzaq (nine saks) etc.

Lastly, Many pahtun people add Khan at the end of their names, which was characteristics of Huns or also present day Uyghur and other Turkic peoples.

 



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Either make a history or become a history.


Posted By: Sharrukin
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2006 at 04:11

Afghan and Aqhon (The people who built Eftalit empire, the name of which is very popular among Uyghur Turks to add at the end of male name)

The name "Aqhon" probably has no bearing on the Ephthalites.  In the west, the Ephthalites were also called "White Huns" which looks like a transliteration on "Aqhon".    In the east they were called Hayathelites by the Persians, Ye-tai by the Chinese, and simply Hunas by the Indians, but no eastern source called them "White Huns".  The personal name "Aqhon" must therefore have another etymology.

Eftalit and abdal (one of the Tura tribes according to the chinese chronicals)

Again, the Chinese called them Ye-tai.

Huar and Avar (also one of the Tura tribes)

The Chinese called the eastern "Avars" the Ruruan.  As for them being Turkic, the evidence suggest that they were Mongolic of speech, not Turkic.

Tura tribes were the descendants of Huns according to Chinese chronicals, including Uyghur, Oghuz etc.

The real "Tura" tribes were Iranic-speaking, not Turkic-speaking.  "Tura" or "Turan" is merely a borrowing from Persian sources for "eurasian nomad", which during the time of the earliest Iranian history were Iranic-speaking nomads. 

Pushtu people call themselves Pahtun, and the place as Pahtunhua.

Pahta is cotton in Uyghur, which is related to white colour. Pahthun can be changed as Pahtun. Then can we find relation between Pahtun and Aqhun?

No.  We actually have a correlation between "Pahtun" and the name of an ancient Afghani mountain tribe known to classical Greek historians as the Pactyans.  There were first attested by Herodotus about 430 BC.  This would be more than 200 years before the Hun expansion from Mongolia, and 1000 years before the Gok-Turk expansion.

Saka means real brother in Pahtun. There were many places in Uyghur region which are called as Ikkisaq (Two Saks), Oghusaq (Oghuz sak), Toqquzaq (nine saks) etc.

The ancient Saka language was an Iranian language.

Lastly, Many pahtun people add Khan at the end of their names, which was characteristics of Huns or also present day Uyghur and other Turkic peoples.

The name "khan" is a word that has been adapted by many peoples of different backgrounds.  Its use may have been an indication of ethnic origin at one time, but because it spread so far and wide, other peoples have adopted its use.  The Rajputs of western India make much use of it themselves.

Incidently, the Huns (Xiongu) didn't use this title, they used the title "shan-yu".  The earliest known people to have made use of the title "khan" were the Ruruan, and they were Mongolic-speaking.



Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2006 at 06:59
Originally posted by Sharrukin

Afghan and Aqhon (The people who built Eftalit empire, the name of which is very popular among Uyghur Turks to add at the end of male name)

The name "Aqhon" probably has no bearing on the Ephthalites.  In the west, the Ephthalites were also called "White Huns" which looks like a transliteration on "Aqhon".    In the east they were called Hayathelites by the Persians, Ye-tai by the Chinese, and simply Hunas by the Indians, but no eastern source called them "White Huns".  The personal name "Aqhon" must therefore have another etymology.

According to Tuoba Wei history in the 4th century AD, Ye tai were related with Yue chi (or Rou zhi or Tohar), though were included in the Tiele tribes. Surely, it was the mixure of Yue chi and Hunnic tribes. While Huihu (Uyghur) were the main body of the Tiele tribes,  Uyghurs and Yetai should have close relationship.

White hun (Aq hun) is still in commonly used as designation in the names of Uyghurs, then this should help us to find some relations.

Eftalit and abdal (one of the Tura tribes according to the chinese chronicals)

Again, the Chinese called them Ye-tai.

Again one of the Tiele tribes.

Huar and Avar (also one of the Tura tribes)

The Chinese called the eastern "Avars" the Ruruan.  As for them being Turkic, the evidence suggest that they were Mongolic of speech, not Turkic.

Rouran or Juanjuan were recorded as the descendants of the Huns, though the ruling class might be from eastern hu (proto Tungustic), as they absorbed large number of Hun or Tiele tribes, according to the Tuoba Wei history texts. 

Tura tribes were the descendants of Huns according to Chinese chronicals, including Uyghur, Oghuz etc.

The real "Tura" tribes were Iranic-speaking, not Turkic-speaking.  "Tura" or "Turan" is merely a borrowing from Persian sources for "eurasian nomad", which during the time of the earliest Iranian history were Iranic-speaking nomads. 

Might be, but they were the main body of the Turkic people. Or we can say that Turkic people emerged after absorbing almost all of the eastern iranic tribes and Hunnic tribes.

Pushtu people call themselves Pahtun, and the place as Pahtunhua.

Pahta is cotton in Uyghur, which is related to white colour. Pahthun can be changed as Pahtun. Then can we find relation between Pahtun and Aqhun?

No.  We actually have a correlation between "Pahtun" and the name of an ancient Afghani mountain tribe known to classical Greek historians as the Pactyans.  There were first attested by Herodotus about 430 BC.  This would be more than 200 years before the Hun expansion from Mongolia, and 1000 years before the Gok-Turk expansion.

Greek name and the current self calling should be examined further.

Saka means real brother in Pahtun. There were many places in Uyghur region which are called as Ikkisaq (Two Saks), Oghusaq (Oghuz sak), Toqquzaq (nine saks) etc.

The ancient Saka language was an Iranian language.

No, it's not iranian. but it might be eastern iranic.  

Lastly, Many pahtun people add Khan at the end of their names, which was characteristics of Huns or also present day Uyghur and other Turkic peoples.

The name "khan" is a word that has been adapted by many peoples of different backgrounds.  Its use may have been an indication of ethnic origin at one time, but because it spread so far and wide, other peoples have adopted its use.  The Rajputs of western India make much use of it themselves.

Incidently, the Huns (Xiongu) didn't use this title, they used the title "shan-yu".  The earliest known people to have made use of the title "khan" were the Ruruan, and they were Mongolic-speaking.

What I mean wasn't the early Huns. Actually it was "Chan Yu" in Chinese, "Tengriqut" in Turkic. 

It's only probable that Rouruans used this term first, but it's sure this term became more popular after the Turkic rulings. 

 



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Either make a history or become a history.


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2006 at 07:19
No problems,  I will get rid of the rest later.

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