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Where can I get resources about Khorasani

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ethnic History of Central Asia
Forum Discription: Discussions about the ethnic origins of Central Asian peoples. All topics related to ethnicity should go here.
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3551
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Topic: Where can I get resources about Khorasani
Posted By: Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai
Subject: Where can I get resources about Khorasani
Date Posted: 23-May-2005 at 08:45
They are a different Turkic group compared to Turkmens or Azeri Turks, right?



Replies:
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 23-May-2005 at 09:52
more I look into such posts, it comes to the stale joke which went something like "did the chicken come out of the egg or the egg out of the chicken"   ... easily applied to the indo-persian group / turkic altay group......

I believe no, their origin is the Seljuk Turks and the Safavid Turks


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 23-May-2005 at 09:54

http://www.ethnologue.com/14/show_language.asp?code=KMZ - KHORASANI TURKISH: a language of Iran :

Population: 400,000 possibly (1977 Doerfer). 
Region: Northeast Iran, in the northern part of Khorasan Province, especially northwest of Mashhad. West dialect in Bojnurd region; north dialect in Quchan region (probably the largest), south dialect around Soltanabad near Sabzevar. 
Alternate names: QUCHANI
Dialects: WEST QUCHANI (NORTHWEST QUCHANI), NORTH QUCHANI (NORTHEAST QUCHANI), SOUTH QUCHANI.
Classification: Altaic, Turkic, Southern, Turkish.
Comments: Midway linguistically between Azerbaijani and Turkmen, but not a dialect of either. Oghuz-Uzbek in Uzbekistan is reported to be a dialect of this. Bilingualism in Farsi. Not a literary language, but the government broadcasts in Quchani. Different from Khorasani, a local Persian dialect in Khorasan. Muslim.



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Posted By: Alparslan
Date Posted: 24-May-2005 at 02:38

Originally posted by Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai

They are a different Turkic group compared to Turkmens or Azeri Turks, right?

No. Especially the Turkmens of Anatolia still get the heritage of Khorasan. They call themselves sometimes as "Khorasan Erenleri", "Khorasan Alp Erenleri"..... They are Alevis of Turkey.

Some of the Azeri Turks belong to the Turkmens who have returned from Anatolia to Azerbaijan after clashes with Ottoman Turks around 16th century. But there were other Turkic groups also from Oghuzs sttled in Azerbaijan before these events of course.



Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 24-May-2005 at 08:47

Turkmens also live in the north of Khorasan but at least linguistically they differ from Khorasani Turks.



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Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 24-May-2005 at 09:33

Dear All,

   Hi there. Hope you're doing Fine. Well, I'm a Turkmen from Turkmenistan. 'Behtarin arezoo ha ham khedmate aghaye Shahmiri; Turke aziz!!!' As it turns out, something's wrong with our history. I just wanted to mention this:

   Well, when you talk about Turkmens, you refer to people living in Turkmenistan, China, Uzbekistan, Kyrgizestan, Kazakstan and north east of Iran (Golestan Province). They've got cat-like eye; it shows they are pur Turk. Now why pure Turk? You know real Turks used to live in Mongolia. And they had pulled eyes like a cat. Anyhow, Turkmen Turkish  (Oghuz Turk) is the south-western branch of Turkish languages; including Anatolia Turkish and Azeri Turkish.

   About Khorasani Turks; because I've seen lots of them; well, linguistically, they differ from Anatolia or Azeri Turkish; but really close to Turkmen language. But, anyhow, if you ask a Turkmen like me; I'll tell you that Khorasani Turks' languages is really like ours; but closer to Uzbek. Especially in the structure of verbs. Let me tell you and example: 'You go' is said as' gedasan' in Uzbek, 'kiteyin' or 'kiteyim' in Turkmen and 'gedasan' in Khorasani Turks' language.. Star is said as' Ulduz in Uzbek', 'Yildiz' in Turkmen and 'ulduz in Khorasani Turks' language. A lot more can be said like that.

   By the way, the people who are called Turkmens in Anatolia are not really Turkmens. I don't it myself why they're called Turkmen; because they haven't got pulled eyes like Turkmens. Even the accent is different.

   Azeris are not of Yellow Great Rag as Turkmens, Kazaks, Kyrgizes, Uzbeks and Mongols are (in fact, they are all relatives). They were of persian elements to whome Turkish languages was compelled by Seljuk Turkmens (they were Oghuz, you know all).

 

   Take good care and just take it eays.

 

Kind regards,

Iltirish



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 24-May-2005 at 09:50

Dear All,

   Hi there. Well, this is my second messeage in this forum. I just wanted to tell you this:

   If you want to point to a place where Turkish dialects differents become really obvious, it should be Caspian Sea. On the east coast, you've got Oghuz (Turkmen) Turkish (considered as a dialect), Uzbek dialect (not considered as a dialect; a mitxure of Oghuz and Kiptchak with borrowings from Mongolian accents); Kazak and Kyrgiz Turkish which are both of Kiptchak Turkish (considered as a dialect).  The above-named accents are really alike. Now, you might say they've got differents. But, those differents are mostly on the pronounciation of words and not in basic verbs.

   On the west coast, you've got Anatolia Turkish and Azeri( none of them as a dialect; both are sub families of Oghuz Turkish belonged to Turkmens). They are close to each other. Now, if you ask a Turk who knows his language very good, almost with no Persian element, he would say Anatolian and Azeri are really different. But, yet, they are more similar to each other than Turkish accents found on the other side of the Sea.

   There's another different. Anatolian and Azeris are not pure Turk; because they're like Persians. But Turks on the right side of the Sea have the charachteristics of real Turks. The most important one is their eyes which are like a cat's eyes. Next, they've got big cheeks. And a lot more. I can simply say that people living on the wrong side of the Caspian Sea are not pure Turks.

   Take good care and just take it easy.

 

Kind regards,

Iltirish



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 24-May-2005 at 11:09

Best wishes for you too but I'm not a Turk!

Turkmens are one of the rare nations in the world who have preserved their ancient culture very well, there are many things which show they are pure Turks for example whenas other Turkic peoples and also Iranians have mostly Islamic Arabic names, most of Turkmens have beautiful Turkish names such as Maral (Red deer),  Elmira (Devoted to the tribe), Alma (Apple), Alish (Flame), Ayda (In the moon), Ayla (Halo around the moon), Tiram (Great lady), Solmaz (Unfading), Narin (Shining), Sanaz (Rare), ... (those are not my girlfriends! )

 



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-May-2005 at 11:45

No. Especially the Turkmens of Anatolia still get the heritage of Khorasan. They call themselves sometimes as "Khorasan Erenleri", "Khorasan Alp Erenleri"..... They are Alevis of Turkey.

Some of the Azeri Turks belong to the Turkmens who have returned from Anatolia to Azerbaijan after clashes with Ottoman Turks around 16th century. But there were other Turkic groups also from Oghuzs sttled in Azerbaijan before these events of course.

That is absolutely correct. My grandpa's father used to be called a "Horasan alpereni" as my grandpa tells me...

  Turkmens are one of the rare nations in the world who have preserved their ancient culture very well, there are many things which show they are pure Turks for example whenas other Turkic peoples and also Iranians have mostly Islamic Arabic names, most of Turkmens have beautiful Turkish names such as Maral (Red deer),  Elmira (Devoted to the tribe), Alma (Apple), Alish (Flame), Ayda (In the moon), Ayla (Halo around the moon), Tiram (Great lady), Solmaz (Unfading), Narin (Shining), Sanaz (Rare), ... (those are not my girlfriends! )

These names are also oftenly used in Turkey, but some of them are out of use now.

And gok toruk, nice to discuss with another Turkmen brother here. But your ideas are wrong in some points. Being a mongoloid doesnt make you a pure Turk, but it means that some of your ancestors were definately mixed with mongoloids. There is no such term as pure Turkish, like other nations dont have such terms too. None of use are pure members of a pure race, this is rediculous. Since the ancient times, a Kipchak Turks are generally blondes, Eastern Turks are generally Mongoloids, and Anatolian Turks are Turanoid, or caucasoid. If Turks have had entered to Africa sometime in history, today, we would have negroid Turks all over Africa. Your Turkness isnt defined according to your race/look etc., but your very common ethnical ancestry and culture.

The western side of caspian sea cannot be identified as a wrong place, like the eastern part of it cannot be called the right place. There is no right/wrong place for a Turk, and this is what makes you a Turk. The rightest place for us is the most suitable place to settle, and adopt as a new homeland. So this is why most of our ancestors have chosen anatolia as their new (maybe not new) homelands. And today, the right place for us is Anatolia, not Mongolian steppes. Because even those places cannot be called our original homelands...



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Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 24-May-2005 at 12:43

A bit out of topic, but what are the Alevites? Are they a religious sect or a different national group?

 



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-May-2005 at 13:18
Originally posted by Yiannis

A bit out of topic, but what are the Alevites? Are they a religious sect or a different national group?

A religious sect. Alevis are mostly Turkmens, and an important number of Kurds.



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Posted By: Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai
Date Posted: 24-May-2005 at 22:00

Thank for all informations above.

My concern to Khorasan and its Turkic people is because that part of my ancestors were (probably) originated from Oghuz Turks' Kalach(Kharchi,Kharachin,Kharchai,etc) of Khorasan area. They were Kharchin soldiers served in Mongol troops and eventually became Mongols while mixing with other tribes such as Uriangkhai, Kipachak, Khitan, Naiman, Tumed in Mongolia steppes. However, don't like other ancient Turkic tribes such as Naiman, Kereit, Kangli, Karluk, ect. It seems hard to find Kalachi tribe/clan among present-day turkic groups.

And... what's the meaning of their name Quchani?

 



Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 25-May-2005 at 01:24

I think Kharachi (Black tent) is the Turkish name for Gypsies, isn't it?

what's the meaning of their name Quchani?

Land of Ram, I think.



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Posted By: Alparslan
Date Posted: 25-May-2005 at 01:35
Originally posted by Yiannis

A bit out of topic, but what are the Alevites? Are they a religious sect or a different national group?

Around % 90 of the Alevites are Turkomans. Rest is Kurdish but I think they are Kurdified Turkish tribes. Kurds are most predominantly Sunni Muslims. On the other hand Turkoman Alevits can be considered as Shia. Alevit Turkomans were the founders of Safavids. The shia sect has been shaped especially after this event.  That's why there is a huge difference between Shia and Anatolian Alevites shaped during time. Anatolian Alevites are very modern, carrying still old Turkish rituals ......



Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 26-May-2005 at 13:18

Dear Oghuz Oghlu,

   Hi there. Thank you very very much for your concern. You know, as it turns out, you've made a misconception. Listen, when I was talking about 'right' side, I meant the right direction. And they use in every day English, 'wrong side' in contrast to the right direction. You see I didn't mean you were not a Turk.

   But, what seems amusing to me is that you might not know that original Turks've got the face I described the way back. Now, Kiptchaks were Blondes, you say? Just look at all those Kazaks and Kyrgizes. They are Kiptchaks. Turks are not Mongol and Mongols are not Turks; they're just like cousins. Both of them dates back to Mongolian Steppes, our former 'Yurt'. Now why people in Turkey don't have charachteristics of a Turk& Mongol tribe? Because they've mixed with Europeans. In history, all over, it's believed (even by you) that your fathers were Oghuzes (Turkmens). Now, how come a man from Turkmenistan (he's one of your brothers and the way to you background, hmm?) have got cat-like eyes, but a man from Turkey (his brother) doesn't?

   You're right. There's no pure Turk. But by the word 'pure', I meant the face of an original Turk. Alright? There's nothing to make you confused.

   Again, I remind you Turks& Mongolians' origin is Mongolian Steppes. By the way, still, a great part of Oghuzes live in Mongolia. They're of the part of Oghuzes that didn't leave 'Otoken'. They've got Mongolian face and it's not because of living there; that's because of their origin. 


   Take good care and just take it easy.

 

Sincerely,

Iltirish



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 26-May-2005 at 13:26

Dear Cyrus,

   Hi there. How's it going? Fine, I'd hope. Thanks to leave me a message. You were right. I've always wondered why Iranian Turks've got names in Iranian or Arabic. Now, no way to be rude to Iranian names or something; I just wanted to mention they've got their names unused. Take good care and just take it easy.

 

Kind regards,

Iltirish

 

P.S: Some of my favourite names:

Kartal, Temir Tayli, Ak Oyli, Yaghi Basan, Aytan, Shaylan, etc.



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai
Date Posted: 26-May-2005 at 22:57
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I think Kharachi (Black tent) is the Turkish name for Gypsies, isn't it?

In fact, I'm also confused for the exact meaning of my tribename Kharchin. There're mainly three explanations for it:

Some scholars believe Mongol's Kharchin tribe were mainly originated from Karachi clan of Oghuz turks in Khorsan area, and as I know, Kara in Turkic means Black or powerful, and Chi seems mean river or water, so, Karchin seems mean black river, and for Turko-Mongol groups, it was very popular to name themselvse with a river or mountain name.

There're also other sholars who urged that Kipchaks were the most important ancestral origin of the Kharchins, and according to "History of Yuan", yuann shi, Mongols called Kipchak Kharchin because Kipchak could product a kind of very nice blackhorse milk wine, and Hara means Black in Mongolian too, and chi was used to refer those people who engage in some kind of work. so Kharchin means those kipchaks who make black horse milk wine.

There're also a different explanation is base on another origin of the Kharchin, it's the Uriankhai who were the guards of Chinggis Khan and his family, so some thought Kharchin Means guards.

And, I remebered a Kharchai tatar friend ever told me that Chai means tea, I don't if it's a russian word, so Kharchai mean the tatars who drink black tea.  it's bit same to the explanation of black horse milk wine.

 



Posted By: Hushyar
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 00:57

Originally posted by Yiannis


what are the Alevites? Are they a religious sect or a different national group?

Alavits generally considered as those who follow alavism,and mostly live in Turkey.Most of them are Anatolian turkomans and the rest are kurds(mostly zaza speaking).They themselves claim their number is between 10 to 30 millin.

Alavism first appeared as a branch of shi'ism and sufism but as time passed ,they formed a distintive style of religion /sect.

Originally posted by Alparslan


On the other hand Turkoman Alevits can be considered as Shia

Not exactly,Alavism had been originated from shiism but it could not be considered as shiism.
Originally posted by Alparslan


Alevit Turkomans were the founders of Safavids.

Correct form is this:Alavits were one of the groups that helped to found safavid dynasty.

Originally posted by Alparslan


The shia sect has been shaped especially after this event

Completely wrong.Shiism has existed from early years of Islam,Doctorine of twelvers that became official religion of Iran after Safavids had been formulated in Sheikh-e-Qomi and Ibn-e-Babevey works in 4 Century AH (10 Century).



Posted By: Hushyar
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 01:04
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I think Kharachi (Black tent) is the Turkish name for Gypsies, isn't it?

In northern iranian kurdistan and in Azarbaijan ,gypsies are called Qarachi,I think it is compsoed of Qara+ Chi(a turkish suffix which is used in persian and kurdish too)



Posted By: Hushyar
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 01:10
Originally posted by Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I think Kharachi (Black tent) is the Turkish name for Gypsies, isn't it?

In fact, I'm also confused for the exact meaning of my tribename Kharchin. There're mainly three explanations for it:

Some scholars believe Mongol's Kharchin tribe were mainly originated from Karachi clan of Oghuz turks in Khorsan area, and as I know, Kara in Turkic means Black or powerful, and Chi seems mean river or water, so, Karchin seems mean black river, and for Turko-Mongol groups, it was very popular to name themselvse with a river or mountain name.

There're also other sholars who urged that Kipchaks were the most important ancestral origin of the Kharchins, and according to "History of Yuan", yuann shi, Mongols called Kipchak Kharchin because Kipchak could product a kind of very nice blackhorse milk wine, and Hara means Black in Mongolian too, and chi was used to refer those people who engage in some kind of work. so Kharchin means those kipchaks who make black horse milk wine.

There're also a different explanation is base on another origin of the Kharchin, it's the Uriankhai who were the guards of Chinggis Khan and his family, so some thought Kharchin Means guards.

And, I remebered a Kharchai tatar friend ever told me that Chai means tea, I don't if it's a russian word, so Kharchai mean the tatars who drink black tea.  it's bit same to the explanation of black horse milk wine.

 

With respect to your knowledge ,I don't think there is any relationship between Gypsies and Kharchin (a Mongoloid Tribe),or oguz turks.

Many of today scholars usually think Gypsies are of Indian origin.

 



Posted By: Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 01:54

In northern iranian kurdistan and in Azarbaijan ,gypsies are called Qarachi,I think it is compsoed of Qara+ Chi(a turkish suffix which is used in persian and kurdish too)

With respect to your knowledge ,I don't think there is any relationship between Gypsies and Kharchin (a Mongoloid Tribe),or oguz turks.

Many of today scholars usually think Gypsies are of Indian origin.

LoL, thank for your messages, very interesting, I ever heard that Karachi city of Pakistan was named followed a fishman whose name was just karachi, perhaps he was a karachi Oghuz, I guess, hehe. however, I really never heard before that Gypsies were called qarachi too, did Gypsies of Iran live in black tents while Turks live in white tents?

Back to the topic of my thread, I really want to know if there're other Khorasan Karachi Oghuz descendants existing in modern Turkic nations, especially in historical Khorasan area, except Kharchai Tatars(a group of Karachi Oghuz fled from their Khorasan homeland to Kipchak steppes by Mongol force led by Chinggis Khan, and they had intermarriage with Kipchak, Bulgar, and others to form the present-day Kharchai Tatars) , I'm relatively familar with Kazakh's tribes, unfornuately, however, although there're many very famous ancient tribes existing in Kazakh nation yet, for example, Naiman, Keriet, Kangli, Karluk, even Kara Kitan, But, I still can't find any clue about Karachi oghuz, who were ever the most important branch of Oghuz Turks. A Hazara friend ever gave a list of Hazara people of Afganistan where is partly the historical Khorasan area too, (i think if I'm not wrong), but i found there're no such a tribe too, while I have noticed that Chahar (one of most important Mongol tribe have a same tribename) and Naiman among them. Anyone can give a tribe list of Turkman, Uzbek, Uighur, Azeri or Turkey Turkish if the memory about their nomadic ancient tribes exist today yet.

Regards.

 



Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 02:51

Ok, I found something in Persian about Garaili and Qarai Turks in Khorasan:

تركهاى گيرايلى خراسان

"گيراى" ويا "گراى" كه در زبان تركى به شكل اسم مذكر بكار مىرود در زبان مغولى به معنى "لايق" و "مناسب" و "شايسته" است. ريشه آن شكل تصغيرى كلمه "كر" تركى به شكل "كر+ئى" است. همچنين "گئراى" كه آن هم نام مذكر است در تركى به معنى "آبى روشن" ويا "آبى آسمانى" است. اشكال مختلف اين نام به صورت "كئرئى"٫ "كيرئى"٫ "كيراى"٫ و "گيراى" در نامهاى طوائف مختلف خلقهاى تركى آذرى٫ تركمن٫ باشقيرد٫ قزاق ٫ همچنين بوره ت و مغول (با پسوند تصغيرى ت به شكل "كئرئ+يت=قريت"٫ "قارائيت") ديده مىشود. گيراى لقب خانهاى تاتار كريمه و داغستان ويا شاهزادگان منسوب به خانهاى شبه جزيره كريمه (در ساحل شمالى درياى سياه٫ واقع در اوكراين) هم بوده است. اين منطقه موطن تركهاى يهودى موسوم به قاراييت ويا قاراييم نيز هست كه محتملا با طوائف گرايلى-قارايى پيوندهايى دارند. ( بسيارى٫ قاراييت-قاراييم ها را از اخلاف تركهاى خزر شمرده اند. سايت زير٫ سايت مربوط به تركهاى يهودى قارائيت-قارائيم جهان است: http://www.turkiye.net/sota/karaim.html - http://www.turkiye.net/sota/karaim.html )

از طوائف امروزى ترك ساكن در استان خراسان٫ ريشه نام طائفه "گرايلى" (در شمال خراسان) به طور قطع و نيز نام طائفه ديگر "قراى" (قارايى) (در تربت حيدريه) محتملا ٫ همين كلمه است. (در ميان قزاقهاى قزاقستان در قرون وسطى طائفه اى كه در نام خود هر دو كلمه را يكجا دارد٫ بنام قارا گيراى وجود داشته است). برخى از ملىگرايان افراطى فارس سعى در ساختن شناسنامه جعلى براى گرايلى نيز كرده اند و ريشه آن را از "گريه ليلى" دانسته اند. !!!! همين همه فارس انگاران٫ در نبود مراكز تركى شناسى در ايران و محروم بودن تركهاى ايران از خواندن و نوشتن و آشنايى با زبان و فرهنگ و تاريخ و تبار خود٫ نام ايل "افشار" تركى را هم از افشردن فارسى٫ "بيات" تركى-مغولى را از بيت عربى٫ "آغاجرى=آغاج ارى" تركى را آقايى كه جر مىزند .... شمرده اند.

تركهاى قرايى خراسان

در تربت حيدريه استان خراسان طائفه اى از تركهاى آذرى بنام قرائى زندگى مىكنند. مسئله رابطه اين طائفه كه اقلا از قرن 18 در آن ناحيه ساكن است با طائفه تركى ديگرى بنام قاراس ويا قارايى در دشت قبچاق (قرن 13) هنوز محل مباحثه است. طائفه ترك آذرى قرايى مانند ديگر طوائف ترك ايران فرشهاى نفيسى مىبافند كه بنام خودشان٫ قرايى نيز معروف است (حتى بلوچها هم شروع به بافتن فرشهايى با اين نام كرده اند).

"قارا" ويا "قاراجا" (به رسم الخط فارسى "قرا" ٫ "قراجه"٫در تركى معانى بسيارى دارد. سياه يكى از آنهاست. قارا (معادل خاراى مغولى) در تركى باستان رنگى است كه به عنوان كد شمال بكار مىرفته است مثل قاراخانيان يعنىخانان شمال٫ (همچنين قراختايى ها)٫ قارا دنيز يعنى درياى سياه كه در شمال قرار دارد (در مقابل آق دنيز٫ مديترانه كه در جنوب قرار دارد). در نام شاهان و سلاطين ترك كلمه قارا (قرا ) به معنى قوى و نيرومند است. مثل قاراملك٫ قاراجوق و غيره. فرشهاى مشهور طايفه قرايى خراسان هم به سبب انتساب به اين طائفه ترك و همچنين به سبب مقاوم بودنشان قرايى ناميده مىشوند. همچنين در مقابل رده و رتبه دون و پايين٫ قارا رتبه ى بلند و مرتبه بالا را مىرساند. مانند قارا خان٫ قارا اوردو٫ قارا دون ٫ قاراپاپاق٫ قاراگؤزلو. و يكى از آخرين معانى قارا توده انبوه٫ متراكم و بىشمار است. مانند قارا قويونلو ها كه اتحاديه اقوام بىشمار تركى در مقابل آق قويونلو ها (با تعداد اندك قبائل) بوده اند. همچنين سركرده و بگ هايى كه تبعه شان كم شمار بود بيشتر لقب آق داشته اند تا قارا. در نامهاى جغرافيايى مانند قاراداغ٫ قاراجاداغ٫ قاراباغ٫ قارا سو٫ قاراتپه و غيره هم قارا نه به معنى سياه بلكه به معنى انبوه و متراكم است.

 



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Posted By: Alparslan
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 04:02
Originally posted by gok_toruk

 Again, I remind you Turks& Mongolians' origin is Mongolian Steppes. By the way, still, a great part of Oghuzes live in Mongolia. They're of the part of Oghuzes that didn't leave 'Otoken'. They've got Mongolian face and it's not because of living there; that's because of their origin.

It is not known that the origine of Turk & Mongols was in Mongolian steppe or not. The capital of Gokturuks was in Otuken and in Mongolia. But on the other hand the Khazars were forming the west edge of the empire at the Black Sea coast!!! What about Huns? They were fighting in France before Gokturuk. You cannot fix the Turks in only Mongolia.  

They have certainly different origines. Turks and Mongols are mixture of Chinese like nomads and Caucosoid like nomads. Turks are predominantly Caucosoid but Mongols are predominantly Chinese. They have mixed somewhere in steppes.

Dear gok turuk, you cannot neglect the fact that Mongolians have influenced the Turks deeply with Genghis Kagan.

Note: I gave just seen a documentary in National Geographic showing that there is a genetic relations between an Amazon Sarmatian warrior who lived 2.500 years ego in north of Black Sea and a Mongolian (most probably ethnically Turk) girl in Mongolia.

You may even not find a place of origin since it seems like there was a mixture during thousands of years. Cat like eye cannot be a sign of being Turk. What do you mean by cat-like eye? Like this?

  

Or like this?

or like this?

Or this one....

 



Posted By: Hushyar
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 09:19

Originally posted by Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai


LoL, thank for your messages, very interesting, I ever heard that Karachi city of Pakistan was named followed a fishman whose name was just karachi, perhaps he was a karachi Oghuz, I guess, hehe. however, I really never heard before that Gypsies were called qarachi too, did Gypsies of Iran live in black tents while Turks live in white tents

Does Qarachi means those who live in black tent in Turkic languages?
I just thought that it means those who do black or bad things because Gypsies are hated by local peoples.and No Gypsies I saw, used Millitary or camping tent and they were not black!!!!.

About the second part of your message I am sorry because I have no special knowledge about This subject.I hope other forumers would help you.I just read and will learn.



Posted By: Hushyar
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 09:20

Dear Cyrus:
Is This Mehran Bahari's article?He is not considered a reasonable and trustable source.
BTW because I don't know anything about Turks and Turkic languages so I can not judge about this article.

and one more question?(sorry not related to topic)

our sweet discussion in two years ago about iron and scythian,is realy disapeared?!!!completely


 



Posted By: Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 09:28

Thanks, Cyrus, but I can't understand Persian, even my computer can't support this language, but I really hope to know what it wrote about Karachi. Did it mention that Karachi was one of Oghuz tribes, did it mention its tribal origins? and any Karachi leaders were mentioned in this article?  had the karachi some sub-tribes? where did they live except Khorasan?



Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 10:52

Welcome Back Hushyar!

Is This Mehran Bahari's article?He is not considered a reasonable and trustable source.

I just found it http://azadtribun.com/557.htm - here , I don't know the author!

our sweet discussion in two years ago about iron and scythian,is realy disapeared?!!!completely

Many thing happened in our forum during your long absence, in fact our old forum was lost!

Thanks, Cyrus, but I can't understand Persian, even my computer can't support this language, but I really hope to know what it wrote about Karachi. Did it mention that Karachi was one of Oghuz tribes, did it mention its tribal origins? and any Karachi leaders were mentioned in this article?  had the karachi some sub-tribes? where did they live except Khorasan?

It doesn't talk about Karachis but as I said about Garaili and Qarai Turks in Khorasan, the first one seems to be related to Jews! and the second one is an Azeri tribe.



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Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 11:31

Dear Alp Arslan,

   Hi there. Wish you all the best.

   Well, Khazars and Hunes dates back to Mongolian Steppes. They just made their way to Europe by fighting differenet nations. It's documentified that Hunes had wars with Germans. Right. But this does not mean they were European. Just look at all those famous books about Turks & Mongols. Why books? I see in my everyday life that all Turks on the right side of the river've got cat-like eye. Not because of all Mongols. Let me tell you this. In ancient times, whenever a foreigner stepped to Mongolia, he wasn't able to identify who was a Turk and who was a Mongol. Now, Mongolian influence? Mongolians were so small in population that even in the time of Chengiz Kan, a great part of his army was consisted of Turks. Alright, let's imagine this small population'd influence on Turkish tribes. Even if all of Mongols'd tried to marry Turks or something, they couldn't make all Turks look Mongolian. But, you see all Turks on the right side of the Sea've got Mongolian face.

   My ancestors, before 5th one, used to live in Kazakstan. My ancestors, before 9th one, used to live in Mongolian Steppes. We've got stories, telling us that no facial difference was found between a Turk and Mongol. For instance, Kyrgizes used to live far in north. Almost no reltionship, they had, even with Turks. Let alone for Mongols. But still, they've got cat-like eyes.

   I just want you to go for the details about Turks & Mongols. It's proved that their origin's somewhere in Altai and near Tianshan.

   Turks & Mongols are not Chinese; Chinese people are not Turkish and Mongolian. Now, chinese story is different. Almost 22000 years ago, a big tribe was living in Mongolia. When southern Mongolia get dry and turned into Gobbi Desert, a part of that tribe went to China and became the ancestors of Chinese people. Now, why the language is different? Because they've left Mongolia in an early time. That's it.

   Turks & Mongols are so simillar. Did you know that Turk Kakan classified Kyrgizes as Mongols, but they are one of the most early Turks. Or, on the other hand, Karaeits were considered as Turks, but they're not Turk, they are Mongol, you know that? Mate, it's proved that Turks' origin is Mongolia, right? You believe in that, don't you? How come a Mongol who lives in Mongolia have got cat-like eye, but a Turk who lives there also, doesn't? Even Mongols know that Turks are their brothers. I've got many Mongol friends. My uncle went back to Mongolia.

   My dear Alp Arslan, people living in Turkey (who don't look like Mongolian) are not the only Turks you may find in the world. All people (except Tajiks) living on the right side of the sea are Turks. The first place when Turks migrated after living Mongolia was Central Asian Turkistan. It was not Turkey. So, you'll find people speaking in a Turkish which is more simillar to ancient Turkish, looking to a Turk of ancient Times, and acting in a culture which's originated from Turks ancient culture.

   No way to be rude to you. Kendini igi bak.

 

Kind regards,

Iltirish

  

  



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 11:35

Dear Cyrus,

   Hi there. Hope your'e doing fine. Well, I'm not sure if 'karayli's are the same as 'Karachi's; but I wanted to mention this:

   There's a Turkmen tribe (by Turkmen, I mean Turkmenistan, North Eastern Iran, Afghanistan, and Central Asian countries; not a Tukey Turkmen) named' Keray' or ' kerey' (you may hear that with this pronounciation: 'Gerey'). They used to be in Chenghis Kan's army. So, they're called Mongolian Turkmens. There's a Kazak tribe, also, with the same name. They were also used to be in Chenghiz Kan's army. I don't know if this could be a help; but a piece of information. Take good care and take it easy.

 

Sincerely,

Iltirish



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 11:46

Dear All,

   Hi there. Hope you're doing fine.

   One thing I'll say for these things is that we've got two different issues for the word 'mongolian':

1- All people having cat-like eyes are classified as Mongolian; not because Mongols were their ancetors. Just because their origin's Mongolia. People like, Turkmenistan Turkmens, Kazaks, Kyrgizes, Uzbeks, Mongols themselves, Chinese, Tungus and a lot more are Mongolian.

2- The people living today in Mongolia and consisted of different tribes. Now, there's a point. Why there were called Mongols? Because, the tribe who used lead them was called Mongol? Of course no. After Chenghiz Kan gathered all tribes living Mongolia to make a nation-wide empire, they had a 'Kurultay' (parliment). In this 'kurultay', they decided to pick up a name for themselves. And the name was 'Mongol': (something close to) 'conqueror). And they'd got a small mixture of Turkish tribes. But most of the tribes were Mongolian.

   Anyhow, I've got a post another message; so that's about it for the time being. Take good care and just take it easy.

 

Kind regards,

Iltirish



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 11:50

Dear All,

   Hi there. How's it going? Fine, I'd hope. Well, as it turns out, I should remind you of something; especially to Alp Arslan:

I'm 'Gok Toruk'; not 'Gok Turk'. 'Toruk' is derived from the verb 'Toremek' which means 'to be born'. Take good care and take it easy.

 

Kind regards,

Iltirish



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 21:59
Originally posted by gok_toruk

Dear Cyrus,

   Hi there. Hope your'e doing fine. Well, I'm not sure if 'karayli's are the same as 'Karachi's; but I wanted to mention this:

   There's a Turkmen tribe (by Turkmen, I mean Turkmenistan, North Eastern Iran, Afghanistan, and Central Asian countries; not a Tukey Turkmen) named' Keray' or ' kerey' (you may hear that with this pronounciation: 'Gerey'). They used to be in Chenghis Kan's army. So, they're called Mongolian Turkmens. There's a Kazak tribe, also, with the same name. They were also used to be in Chenghiz Kan's army. I don't know if this could be a help; but a piece of information. Take good care and take it easy.

Sincerely,

Iltirish

 

I guess you were talking about Kereit tribe, who was one of the largest one in western Mongolia during the time of Chinggis Khaan. Usually, people believe that Kereit, Naiman, Merkit, Ongud, Uriankhai, Tumad were Turkic groups in Mongol steppes or Siberian forest, while Tatar, Kitan, Buryat, Oirad, Bargud were Mongolic groups, and all of those tribes were eventually unified with Chinggis Khaan's Mongols to form the present-day Mongol people. I'm agree that Mongols and Turks are cousin that, not only because proto-mongol groups and proto-turk group probably share a common ancestor many many thousand years ago, but also because modern mongol nation was descentants of both ancient Mongolic and Turkic tribes.

And somethings very interesting here, I believe most people of the former Keriet tribe in Mongol steppes were absorbed into Mongol nation after Chinggis Khaan defeated and conquered them, but Chinggis Khaan, of course, couldn't allow his greatest enemy continue to exist as a whole tribe in his new-born empire, so, you can't find out any Kereit tribe among present-day Mongols except some individuals and family claim they were descended from Kereit tribe. However, those Kereit who served in Mongol army and immgrated into Turkistan or Central asia, although couldn't be larger than those who leave in Mongolia, I believe. however, you even can find out Kereit tribe among mostly Turkic nations in today's central asia, such as Kazakh, Kirgiz, Turkmen. On the other hand, most resource mentioned that Karachi was one of the largest Oghuz tribes in ancient time, I guess today's Oghuz desendants, like Turkmen, Azeri, Turkey Turkish should have much blood descended directly from them, but you would probably fail to find out Karachi tribe among those Turkic nations today.  More interesting, you perhaps never imagine that a very small groups of the Khorasan Karachi served in Mongol army immgrated back to Mongol steppes and keep their tribename there until modern days.

Regards.

 



Posted By: Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai
Date Posted: 27-May-2005 at 22:09


It doesn't talk about Karachis but as I said about Garaili and Qarai Turks in Khorasan, the first one seems to be related to Jews! and the second one is an Azeri tribe.

I guess it should be an article about Kereit/Kerei tribe but not Karachi. Thanks anyway. I don't know if Azeri have also such a tribe named Kerei/Qarai today like Kazakh, Kirgiz, Turkmen, etc.

And... do you ever read this persian history work " http://www.spongobongo.com/rwj.htm#Jami' at-tawarikh. - Jami' at-tawarikh " by Rashid ad-Din? I know there're a chapter of "Oghuz and its relatives", in which Uighur, Kangli, Kipchak, Karluk, Karachi were recorded detailedly, but I don't get this book yet.

 

 



Posted By: perdon
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 00:00
Originally posted by gok_toruk

Dear All,

   Hi there. Hope you're doing fine.

   One thing I'll say for these things is that we've got two different issues for the word 'mongolian':

1- All people having cat-like eyes are classified as Mongolian; not because Mongols were their ancetors. Just because their origin's Mongolia. People like, Turkmenistan Turkmens, Kazaks, Kyrgizes, Uzbeks, Mongols themselves, Chinese, Tungus and a lot more are Mongolian.

2- The people living today in Mongolia and consisted of different tribes. Now, there's a point. Why there were called Mongols? Because, the tribe who used lead them was called Mongol? Of course no. After Chenghiz Kan gathered all tribes living Mongolia to make a nation-wide empire, they had a 'Kurultay' (parliment). In this 'kurultay', they decided to pick up a name for themselves. And the name was 'Mongol': (something close to) 'conqueror). And they'd got a small mixture of Turkish tribes. But most of the tribes were Mongolian.

   Anyhow, I've got a post another message; so that's about it for the time being. Take good care and just take it easy.

 

Kind regards,

Iltirish

Aziz karedishim,Xush kelibsiz.

 TurkmenistanDan  Qayer'dan kelgan ?

I am so sorry I cannot agree with you ,acording to Chinese documents in the Han dynasty ,Hun are not mogolian ,at least don't look like chinese .and  do you know about the caucasian mummy fund in Tarim basin in UYghur region of china ,those mummy dates back to more tnan 2 thousand years ,and tarim basin  is very close to Mogolia ,why isn't  possibale for Toruk look like european ?  Turuk in central asia are not mogolian but you can say  we are asian ,yes ,kazakh and kyrgiz look very like mogolian ,but still some of them have green eyes ,and in my whole life in O'zbekistan ,I have never seen an O'zbek has slanted eyes ,or as what you said "cat like "eyes .(funny that how can a cat has slanted eyes ,wow ,in turkmenstan ,Chigis han 's army even slep with cats and made cats look like mogolian ,I mean cats have slanted eyes ), 

  the mogolian feature of central asian mostly comes from Chingishan's decendents ,I think !

  but I also believe turk in mogolia after hun has both caucasian and mogolian feature !

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 03:56

Gok_toruk and perdon,

You both misuse the word "mongolian". I see you use the word "Mongolian" as having asian features. But the word you should use instead of "Mongolian" is "Mongoloid". Mongoloid is the name of that race, but Mongolian is the name of a nation. So if you believe Turks were originally slanted eyed, you should say they were "Mongoloid", not Mongolians. Because Turks arent Mongolians, we are a much more different nation...



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Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 13:02

Ghizigh Karintashim, Pedron,

   Sagh bol. Yashs. Yakhshi mi sen?  Well, I've read about those Chinese documentations. You know, in different history books, two different Huns are describes: White Huns and Yellow Huns. Well, yes, White Huns are like Europeanw. The descentents of White Huns, are, Bulgars, for instance. Now, why like Europeans? Because they're a mixture of Huns and Slavs (check the spelling). But, Yellow Huns are described to be Mongoloid (thanks to my dear Oghuz Oghlu  .

   Now, about Yellow hair and Green eyes, in some Kiptchak desent tribes like Kazaks and Kyrgizez, I should say, well... they used to live far in north. When you live in a place where you get snow fall and rain everyday, with a pretty cold temprature, it's really natural for your eyes and hairs to be green and yellow. That's what's happened to Northern Europeans like Finns, Dans and people of Iceland.

   Thanks also for your joke; but by cat-like eye, I mean pulled eyes just as all other Mongoloid. By the way, I was wondering about your words, telling me: 'and in my whole life in O'zbekistan ,I have never seen an O'zbek has slanted eyes ,or as what you said "cat like "eyes'. Man, I've got Uzbek friends with pulled eyes. How come you ignore your quality?

    Men ke yazaning ke de 'sagh bol' diyey men.Sen ke kop saghligh birle ulugh ligh istey men.  

 

Kind regards,

Iltirish



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 13:12

Dear Yungsiyebu,

   Hi there. Hope you're doing fine. Well, thank you very much to revise my piece. Yep, you were right. By the way, one thing I'll say about Azeri people is that they are originally Iranian. They were Iranians that Oghuz Turkish was compelled to them. Even today, in the tongue, you see ancient Iranian words. How do I know? Well, I can speak Farsi.

 

Kind regards,

Iltirish



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 13:23

Dear All,

   Hi there. How's it going? Fine, I'd hope. Well, I'm sick and tired of trying to prove we're not like Europeans (I've tried a thounsand times to ignor my Mongoloid face; but I can't!!! ). Listen, this should my be last message about our 'face's. But a clue to tell you what has happened:

   You know all about Chuvash and Yakut language, hmm? They're classified to be in Altaic group. Right? But they're the third group; the group which has got no similarities to Modern Turkish and Modern Mongolian; because they've left Mongolia in very very early times. One of them lives in NorthEastern Siberia and the othr around the river Volga; Chuvash is more simillar to Mongolian and Yakut is more simillar to Turkish; and they are more simillar to each other. Now, my words is that:

Even though they've left us in ancient times (before christ), still they've both got pulled eyes.

   That's about it for the time being. Dear All, I didn't mean anything. We're all Turks, right? Oghuz Oghlu and Alp Arslan was right. I agree with them, telling us: it's not our face that make us proud; it's our background. I just mentioned the way we looked back. Anyhow, sorry for all those headaches. Take good care and just take it easy.

 

Kind regards,

Iltirish



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 28-May-2005 at 13:27

Benim eziz Oghuz Oghlum ve Alp Arslanim,

   Selam. Sizden cok uzur dilerim; biliyorum ki o sozler sizlere cok eziyet mish; ama indi sizin dilinize yazmishim ke deyim: Hepimiz Turkuz.

 

Yashayiniz,

Iltirish



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: perdon
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2005 at 21:31

Dear all!

Hi there. Hope you're doing fine!(you don't have to say the same words every time ,aren't you tired  

Just a Joke .No any offence to you ,I only joke with my hearty friend ,I take you as my hearty friend !to me  ,really, turkmen is best friend in central asia to O'zbek !!!!

 I am not trying to prove we look like Earupean ,but I think we have caucasian feature !!!! 

very ,importantly ,we have diferent views about eyes ,maybe ,we are talking about the same kind of eyes ,but you think it is pulled eyes ,but I don't think so !

the only pulled eyes in O"zbekistan are korean's eyes(Stalin forced those people to live in O'zbekistan ) ,their eyes are definitly pulled eyes!!

 

 

 

 

 

 



Posted By: perdon
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2005 at 21:39
Originally posted by gok_toruk

 

 

     it's not our face that make us proud; it's our background. 



Posted By: perdon
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2005 at 21:43

very well said !!! you are coooLL!gok Toruk !

one more thing ,what does Turkmen mean? does it mean " men ,toruk "(I am turk),I am curiousabout this !!



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2005 at 12:17

Linguistically the name “Turkmen” as a whole word has no implication in the Modern Turkish Dictionary other than a Turkish clan. As a compound name, it can be divided into two words; Turk and men. The word Turk is used as synonym to the word “Turkic” of the international literary. The word Men means “I”. Figuratively it refers to the braveness. Accordingly the word Turkmen can be explained as: “I am a Turkish man” or “We are Turkish brave men”. Y. J. Diny and K. Kahin supported these explanations, respectively.25, 26 Other scholars have proposed that the element man / men acts as an intensifier and have translated the word as “pure Turk” or “most Turk-like of the Turks”.27

There are certain theories over the development of the term Turkmen:

The Ghaznavids were of servile origin, but their steppe beginnings were speedily overlaid by the Iranian culture and administrative technique which they adopted.28 The Qarakhanids were also influenced at the same way; their elites were quickly assimilated to the traditions of the Iranian-Islamic states.29 The Oghus lived at the southeast coast of Caspian Sea did not influenced by the Persian culture. Therefore, they remained less mingled and pure Turkish blood. So, they called themselves or were called by other groups as a Turkmen.

According to Kashgari, who lived in the 11th century, the word Turkmen means Turkish similar people, which was used by Zulkarneyn (Iskander the great) when he named the powerful Turkic army under the leadership of Shu whom he met after the congruence of Samarqand as Turkmen.30

Other sources considered the name Turkmanend as a precursor of the name Turkmen. Turkmanend is a compound name formed from the word Turk and the Persian word Manend, which means “they are Turks”.31, 32

Ibn al-Kathir and Muhammed Neshri reported that the word Turkmen can be developed from the word Turk and Iman. Iman is Arabic word which means faith and used in the same meaning by the Turks.33 It is reported by Neshri that at the Abbasids period 912 - 913 when the leader Canakhan with his 2 thousands people embraced Islam, they were called Turki iman which is later changed to Turkmen.34, 35

Another word which is supposed to be the predecessor of the name Turkmen is the Arabic word “Turcuman”. This is an Arabic word, means Translator and used by in Turks in the same meaning. In begin it is supposed to be used for those of the Oghus tribes who embraced Islam and acted as a translator for the non-Islam Oghus or other Turkish clans then generalized to include all Oghus people.36, 37

Dequigne believes that the name Turkmen was developed from the name Koman, which was one of the non Oghus Turkish tribes.38

It is doubtful if the name Tukumenk in the Chinese Tung Tin Encyclopedia of 8th century carried the same implication of Turkmen. Almost all the sources date appearance of the name Turkmen to the 10th century. The first nomad communities of Oghus tribes, who embraced Islam in Ordu region at south of the Middle Asia on the frontier of expanding Islam world, were Turkmen or named Turkmen is still the matter of discussion. In the 11th century the name Turkmen was politicized and expanded to cover karluk and Halac communities. The term was later restricted to only the Oghus clans until the 13th century.39

According to the Turkish historian Y. Oztuna, the name Turkmen appeared with conversion of nomad Oghus tribes to Islam. At the end of first half of the 11th century and when all the Oghus people were embraced Islam, the term was used an alternative to Oghus. In the following century, Turkmen seems to have been used for the Oghus people who remained nomad and townsmen were mentioned Oghus. It was during the Mongol period that the name Oghus was finally discontinued. Thereafter, the name Turk had totally replaced Oghus.40

Kafesoglu did not agree with the statement that the name Turkmen is appeared with the Turkish embracement of Islam. This can also be assumed from the descriptions of Turkmen by Kashgarli:39

    “Karluk are a division of Turkmen”
    “they are a clan from the nomad Turks”
    “They differed from the Oghus”
    “They are Turkmen as Oghus”.

It can be concluded that the name Turkmen was first used mainly for the nomads of Oghus, who were the first Oghus people embraced Islam.

Sumer and Boyle claim that the near eastern Muslims gave the name Turkmen to the Oghus.41 The term “Turkmen” appears for the first time in the islamic sources in the 10th century; about 980 AC, the geographer Maqdisi speaking of two strongholds in the province of Isfijab, calls them “frontier posts against the Turkmen”. In the 11th century, it was applied to southwestern Turks; the Oghus and Kipchak, whereas the term Turk is used for the more easterly Turks of the Karluk group. Ghaznavid sources frequently call the incoming Oghus “Turkmen”. In his “Mirror for Princes” Nizam al-Mulk considers the nomad Seljuks with in Iran and the lands to the West as Turkmen.42

In the 11th century, Oghus Turkmen tribes dominated by the Seljuk clan entered the Caucasus region, Mesopotamia and Asia Minor. They defeated Byzantine army, drifted through Iran and into Anatolia. The chieftain Ottoman of Kayi tribe established in the 13th century the sprawling Ottoman Empire that lasted into the 20th century. The other two Turkmen states were the Qara Qoyunlu (Black Sheep) from 1378 until 1469 and the Aq Qoyunlu (White Sheep) from 1387 until 1502.

According to the Encyclopedia Britannica the name Turkmen is a synonym of Oghus which includes all the Turkish (Turkic) population who live to the southwest of Central Asia:43

    1. Turkey
    2. Azerbaijan Republic
    3. Azerbaijan of Iran
    4. Turkmenistan
    5. in other countries:
      a. Afghanistan
      b. Iraq, Syria and other Arab countries
      c. Greece, Cyprus, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Gagavuz, and other European countries.

The worth noting is that with the exception of the Turkmenistan and Afghanistan all the Turkmen communities can easily understand each other.

The Turkish historian Y. Oztuna presents almost the same definition to the name Turkmen. He calls Turkmen Oghus or western Turkish populations:44

    1. Ottomans
    2. Azerbaijan
    3. Turkmen (Turkmenistan)

However, the name Turkmen is used in different meaning by the Turkish populations or their neighbors. At the time being, the name Turkmen is mainly used for the following Turkish peoples:

1. Turkmen of Republic of Turkmenistan.

Turkmenistan is located in Central Asia between Iran and Kazakhstan. The Caspian Sea border Turkmenistan from the west. Its total area is 488,100 km2. The population is estimated 4,254,000 in 1993.

There are stocks of Turkmen in the neighboring countries to Turkmenistan for example, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan, Afghanistan and Tajikistan.

Due to the political conflicts, the Oghus people moved from the northeast a long the Tula River to the region of present Turkmenistan in the 8th and 9th century. They established trading religious and cultural contacts with the Perso - Arabic and Islamic empire at the south. Towards the end of the 10th century, they converted to Islam, and were for the first time referred to as Turkmen. They massively moved toward the south and west. The tribes that remained in Central Asia established themselves in the Transoxiana region in the 11th and 12th century, retained their tribal customs, and came to form the basis of the Turkmen nation.

After dominating Tajikistan and the Uzbek Khanates in 1876, the Russians began their occupation of the Turkmenistan in 1877. After one of the bloodiest campaigns of Russian colonial history, by 1884 they had subdued the Turkmen. In 1899, Turkmenistan became part of the Russian Governor - Generalship of Turkistan, which had been established in Transoxiana in 1867.

In 1916, the Turkmen also took part in general revolt, of Central Asia. As the Russian Revolution and the subsequent Civil War started in 1917, the Turkmen were still suffering from the consequences of the 1916 Revolt.

In the meantime, a Turkmen national movement was developing, and a Provisional Turkmen Congress was set up in Ashkabad. Efforts were made to build a national armed force, but it was immediately suppressed by the Bolsheviks. In 1918, the Provisional Revolutionary Government of Trans-caspia established. This government was hard-pressed, and eventually began impressing Turkmen into its army. This caused widespread desertions to the Bolsheviks. In the summer of 1919, Ashkhabad fell to the Bolsheviks. Some of the Turkmen forces continued to fight the Bolsheviks in the desert, in the Turkmen's version of the Basmachi Revolt.

In 1921 a Turkmen region which was established as part of Soviet Turkistan (Central Asia), but already in 1924, the Soviets started to split up this unit to create national homelands. The first ones to be established were the Uzbek and the Turkmen Soviet Socialist Republics. Turkmen nationalist movements were still operating, with goals of establishing an independent Turkmenistan. Several bloody Turkmen revolts were took place around 1930. The discovery of subversive Turkmen organization, for example, Turkmen Azatlygi (Liberty) Party by the Soviets, brought about large-scale purges and persecution of Turkmen political and cultural leaders. From 1934 to 39 almost a whole generation of intellectuals was liquidated. Purges took place again in 1946 - 1948 and in 1959 over the nationalist Turkmen.

2. Turkmen of Turkey

many groups of people were called Turkmen in Turkey. Their number is higher than in Turkmenistan. They are living in many governorates at the middle and east of the Turkey, for example, Gazianteb, Afyon and Kieshehir. They were nomadic Turkish tribes who firmly attacked to the traditions.

3. The Turkmen of Iran,

They live along the northern border of Iran across Turkmenistan.45 They numbered about 2 millions. Their main cities are Gunbde Kaus, Bender Turkmen and Kalala.

4. The Turkmen of Iraq.

They live mainly at the north and middle of the Iraq. Their number severly underestimated according to them it approximates 2.5 millions. The Turkmen of Iraq are the generations of different Turkish clans, who entered Iraq since thousands of years, for example, Oghus, Kipchak, Azerbaijanian and Mongols. The term Turkmen for the Iraqi Turks seems to have been created during the discussion of Mosul issue in the third decade of the last century, to isolate the Iraqi Turks from the Turkey. This used as a factor again Turkey during negotiations, to join this oil rich Ottoman province to the newly founded Iraq by Brittan.

5. The Turkmen of Syria.

Long before the Islamic era, the Huns overrun Syria and Iraq (391 - 400 AD). The Turks were founded in large numbers in the Sasanian Iraq and Syria. The Turkmen of Syria appears in the history as an important factor in the Crusade wars during the reign of Seljuk Empire. They founded the Syrian Seljuk (1092 – 1117) and the Atabakian state in Aleppo (1104). Thereafter a large number of Turkmen entered Syria during the Turko-Mongol conquest and Ottoman Turkmen after Malazgirt battle in 1071. In the 3rd decade of the 14th century a short-lived Turkmen principality was founded in the Albistan region by Dulkaderogullari. During the Seljuk reign Turkmen from Yiva, Bayat, Avshar, Begdilli, Doger and Uchkochaklar were established in Syria.



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Posted By: perdon
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2005 at 21:58
Dostim ,Kotta Rahmet !!!!!


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2005 at 06:58

Originally posted by perdon

Dostim ,Kotta Rahmet !!!!!

Saً olasin kardasim...



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Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 09:37

Dear Perdon and Oghuz Oghlu (kizigh Qarin tash larim),

   Hi there. Hope you're doing fine. Well, sorry for this a little bit too late reply. You know, I had lots of businesses to attend  related to my course in university. Anyhow, thanks for your concern. Well, all those comments out there are notified in different books; but all of them are not acceptable; cause you see for example some people think that Turkmen is derived as Turk + Iman; now you know All that Iman is an Arabic word.

    As for me as a Turkmen and as a person whose mother tongue is Turkmen, I would say that 'men' is just an intensifier. So, it just focuses on the Turkish element in their culuture.

    By the way,  you know there are differenet Oghuz groups in the world. They were devided in the time of Seljuklis. A part went to Anatolia to make Osmanli Devleti. And a part stayed in Northern Turkmenistan and Kazakstan. Then, they migrated to Turkmenistan and NorthEastern Iran to be called Turkmens. 
   Now that we've got two groups of Turkish people in different sides of Sea, I would mention something:

   You know, we're all of the Turk Great Rag, no matter to which tribe we belong, how we look like, or any accent we've taken. But the fact is that, on the west side of the Sea, you'll find almost all of the people az Oghuz. They are Turkiye lisand Azerbaijan lis. But, on the right side, people from different tribes have come to be a mixture of all Turkish tribes. I'm talking about the nations. Now, you'll find some tribes that last a long time ago. But, people living in Turkmenistan are not all Oghuzes. Also, in Uzbekistan. Uzbeks were Turks and Mongols who took the name of Uzbek Kan. I even know about Kiptchaks that changed their name to Uzbek after changing their ways of life. Or, Kazaks,  they were different Turkish and Mongolian Tribes with a leader who lead them to gain lots of places. Kazak means something like 'free', independent. I'm an Oghuz, but, my ancestors used to live in Kazakstan. Even my mother is a Kiptchak, although I call myself an Oghuz (just simply because my father is an Oghuz).

   Not to give you a headache again, but no matter to which tribe we belong, we are Turks. That's what gives us honor. Take good care and just take it easy.

 

Kind regards,

Iltirish



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 09:40

Dear Oghuz Oghlu,

   Hi there. Well, I supposed you were Turkiye li. But as it turns out in your profile, it's written you're from Uzbekistan. Uzbekistan bolsang, Qa yer ten kelken?  



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 09:53

Qiziq Perdon,

   Yakhsi mi sen? Sening bir messeging, ikinji page te mish tigh; men oni korkemey tim. Indi korip te, sen ke qarshichiliq yazkey men. 

   Uzbek ler te bizim ing yaqin gharin tash larimiz tir lar. Indi, yalghiz Uzbek ya ta Turkmen demekey li.  Kazak lar birle Kyrghiz lar ta bizim Gharnitash larimiz tir lar. Biz, ne yerte erken seyik, bir birimiz ke yartim etmeli yik. Qiziq Perdon, kop qwantim, kop begentim. Sagh bol. Sagh ligh ta bol .



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 11:43
Originally posted by gok_toruk

Qiziq Perdon,

   Yakhsi mi sen? Sening bir messeging, ikinji page te mish tigh; men oni korkemey tim. Indi korip te, sen ke qarshichiliq yazkey men. 

   Uzbek ler te bizim ing yaqin gharin tash larimiz tir lar. Indi, yalghiz Uzbek ya ta Turkmen demekey li.  Kazak lar birle Kyrghiz lar ta bizim Gharnitash larimiz tir lar. Biz, ne yerte erken seyik, bir birimiz ke yartim etmeli yik. Qiziq Perdon, kop qwantim, kop begentim. Sagh bol. Sagh ligh ta bol .

I am glad that I have easily understood your sentences. Turkmen is the easiest Turkic dialect for us after Azerî.

And no, gizigh garindashim, I am not from Uzbekistan, but I wanted to change my flag with another Turkic flag. Does the flag really matter?



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Posted By: Alparslan
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2005 at 13:38
Originally posted by gok_toruk

Dear Oghuz Oghlu,

   Hi there. Well, I supposed you were Turkiye li. But as it turns out in your profile, it's written you're from Uzbekistan. Uzbekistan bolsang, Qa yer ten kelken?  

We are not saying Türkiyeli. It is only Türk.

Saygi ve Sevgiler Goktoruk



Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 09:21

Dear Oghuz Oghlu,

   Hi there. Best wishesh and respect. Well, yeah, Turkmen is really close to Istanbuli Turkchesi. I'm, too, really glad you can easily communicate with your other turk brothers. You know, the structure is the same in all Turkish accents. It's just the dialect which differes from a nation to another. Now, as the last line (the Turkmen equvalent of 'kendini iyi  bak'), kentingi igi baq!!!



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 09:25

Dear Alp Arslan, the brother,

   Hi there. How's it going? Fine, I'd hope. Yeah, sorry for the misconception. I'd better use Turk brothers, instead of Turkiye li brothers. Thanks also for your 'saygi lar ve sevgiler', the same here. Take good care and just take it easy .



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Cengiz Kagan
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2005 at 20:42
Originally posted by Oguzoglu

Originally posted by gok_toruk

Qiziq Perdon,

   Yakhsi mi sen? Sening bir messeging, ikinji page te mish tigh; men oni korkemey tim. Indi korip te, sen ke qarshichiliq yazkey men. 

   Uzbek ler te bizim ing yaqin gharin tash larimiz tir lar. Indi, yalghiz Uzbek ya ta Turkmen demekey li.  Kazak lar birle Kyrghiz lar ta bizim Gharnitash larimiz tir lar. Biz, ne yerte erken seyik, bir birimiz ke yartim etmeli yik. Qiziq Perdon, kop qwantim, kop begentim. Sagh bol. Sagh ligh ta bol .

I am glad that I have easily understood your sentences. Turkmen is the easiest Turkic dialect for us after Azerî.

And no, gizigh garindashim, I am not from Uzbekistan, but I wanted to change my flag with another Turkic flag. Does the flag really matter?




Your right

I'm from Turkey and I have a Turkmenian flag. It really doesn't matter as long it's a Turkic flag.




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TANRI TURKU KORUSUN


Posted By: Aygucu Tonyukuk
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2005 at 20:56

For Turks, there is no difference between Ankara, Askabat, Alma-At‎, Kasghar and so on. We are all brothers and from same origin.

I saw a mistake above. The nearest Turkic dialect to Istanbul Turkish is Gagauz Turkish. But with some afford, you can understand and speak easily in Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan even Kazakh and Kyrg‎z Turkish.

I'm also Turkmen. I'm a Bayat from my father, Avshar from my mother.



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Turkish History Forum
www.turktarihi.net


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 07-Jul-2005 at 03:32

Dear Aygucu Tonyukuk,

   Hi there. Best wishesh and respect. Well, thank you very much or your concern. It doesn't need me to confirm your words; simply because it's correct. Take good care and take it easy.

 

Yashayin,

Iltirish



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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.


Posted By: Aygucu Tonyukuk
Date Posted: 07-Jul-2005 at 10:35

فltirish Bek,

I want to thank you for your good words.
Rahmat.



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Turkish History Forum
www.turktarihi.net


Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 05:45
Dear Aygucu Tonyukuk,
   Hi there. Well, sorry for this a little bit too late reply. Not good words; but correct!!!

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Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.



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