Irish are Really the Sons of Mil
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ancient Mediterranean and Europe
Forum Discription: Greece, Macedon, Rome and other cultures such as Celtic and Germanic tribes
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34224
Printed Date: 20-May-2024 at 07:08
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Topic: Irish are Really the Sons of Mil
Posted By: Don Quixote
Subject: Irish are Really the Sons of Mil
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2013 at 18:22
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Irish are not close descendants of the Celts, but are closest to the Basqies "...One of the oldest texts composed in Ireland is the Leabhar Gabhla, the Book of Invasions. It tells a semi-mythical history of the waves of people who settled in Ireland in earliest time. It says the first settlers to arrive in Ireland were a small dark race called the Fir Bolg, followed by a magical super-race called the Tuatha de Danaan (the people of the goddess Dana). Most interestingly, the book says that the group which then came to Ireland and fully established itself as rulers of the island were the Milesians - the sons of Mil, the soldier from Spain. Modern DNA research has actually confirmed that the Irish are close genetic relatives of the people of northern Spain...". http://www.sott.net/article/263587-DNA-shows-Irish-people-have-more-complex-origins-than-previously-thought - http://www.sott.net/article/263587-DNA-shows-Irish-people-have-more-complex-origins-than-previously-thought |
Replies:
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2013 at 03:37
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Irish are also NaDeNaJ=nadenay=Divine genuine!Exellent! |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2013 at 04:58
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It seems this combines facts with fiction and wishfull thinking. Of course are the irish close related with other western people. The main Y-DNA is R1b. The reason herefor is not sure. But most likely is, that it spread from a refugium in SW-Europe, where some human populations escaped to, during the LGM. From here the repopulated western Europe. It is hard to believe, that the Irish did know about that far days. There are several invasions to Ireland recorded. The first was those of Cessair, who came around the deluge. 300 years later came the second wave under Partholon, both from Spain. Both were descendents of Noah. they were followed by the people of nemed from Scythia, then the Fir Bolg and the Tuatha de danann. The last invasion is those of the Milesians from Spain. And of course let us not forget the Fomori. It should be clear, that, if we want to combine a historical event with the deluge, it can only happen at the end of the LGM, when the glaciers melted away. It would be remarkable, if the medieval irish would remember those times. More likely is, that medieval scholars invented these biblical relations. Nemed should arrive around 2000 BC from Scythia. Their name is already celtic. But their people died or left and ireland was deserted for long years. The Fir Bolg followed. Some connect them with the Belgae. But the belgae didn't arrive in britain before the 2nd century BC and in ireland they arrived even later. Short after them arrived the Tuatha de danann, who were descendend of the nemeds. O'Reilly identifies them as Dumnonii. Well, the last wave were the Milesians. They came from Spain, but their origin lay far back in Scythia and Egypt. That's what the chronics want to make us believe. If the Irish people would descent from them, the q-celtic would have come very late to Ireland. Archaeological records have not a single evidence for this. Who the Milesians were is hard to say. There was a spanish unit of the roman army in Britain. maybe some left to ireland. But maybe it is simply invented. So it is true, that irish people are related with western people, but not especially with basques, but with all. These people came during the neolithicum. Celtic speaking people came later and not as mass migrations. It is difficult to find them by DNA research, because they as well came from mainly R1b areas. Celts are as well not a genetical group, but a linguistic or cultural group. Such people can't be identified with DNA tests. |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2013 at 06:48
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We can call approach above "Roman" approach.Hi Beorna!
 ("Divide et impera" approach) |
Posted By: Windemere
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2013 at 11:47
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Well, although I believe that although the predominant tribal descent of the modern Irish is Celtic {probably from Iberia), since very early medieval times there's been a significant admixture of Viking and Anglo-Saxon-Norman. ------------- Windemere |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2013 at 02:09
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I have talked about Vasku (basque) in the north of Iberian Peninsula and Osku (Uskaya in ancient Mesopotamian sources) in the south of Caucasian Iberia in this thread: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28131 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28131 According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1mfhind - Celtic creation myth a man named Glas, the eponymous ancestor of the Gaels, migrated from Egypt and settled in the west of the Caspian sea, modern Gilan (Gelas or Gelae in the ancient sources), several generations later, his descendants were invaded by Scythians, probably in the eighth and seventh century BC, their leader named Agnoman died on the Caspian Sea and his son Lamfhind took leadership of his people to the Iberian Peninsula. There are several historical evidences which prove this migration, like Celtic statue menhirs:  ------------- 
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Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2013 at 06:20
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a propos about mouthless https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSKCAuTjGqywoMGMH_O0z2x52VFhQmZcOz8TkJEZE6DVFlrlCQbtA  |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2013 at 06:52
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Man named Glas:
http://www.eudict.com/?lang=croeng&word=glas - http://www.eudict.com/?lang=croeng&word=glas
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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2013 at 07:06
| Uska=narrow Vasku=sounds like personal name Vasko....Willl try all in Origins. |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2013 at 09:33
| Let us talk about science, please! |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2013 at 10:21
I found a map here: http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/08/2011/statue-menhirs-found-in-a-sardinian-wall - Statue menhirs found in a Sardinian wall  -------------
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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2013 at 10:34
| Sorry language is out of science as i can see! |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2013 at 11:12
No, linguistic is not out of science. But just because two terms in two areas far away from each sound similar, they don*t have to be related. I am from near Hannover, but it has neither to do with Han Chinese nor with the god Hanuman. |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2013 at 11:19
Both of them were sentences once that describe the same syllables.Hadrian has the same Ha as both of words above.But thats my final commentar.Regards beorna!
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Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2013 at 11:31
megalith cultures in western and middle europe are older than 3200 BC |
Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2013 at 22:27
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I'm afraid not. According to scientists, the Irish are a mixture of people from the UK, France and the Celts. The Celts apparently had their origins on the Iberian Peninsula, Migrated North then West until they reached Ireland and Wales. I think it was about 600AD that the Irish started settling in Scotland, mixing with the existing Picts.
See J.P. Mallorys book, "The Origins of the Irish". |
Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2013 at 22:34
| Further to my last post-The Book of Invasions or Lebor Gabala-has been dismissed as a collection of myths. Notwithstanding the fact that a person known as Mil Espania, Milesius or Mil Soldier of Spain is mentioned in historic texts, there is no evidence of him or his sons being in Ireland. |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2013 at 11:28
I know these kind of thesis, with an western, iberian origin of the Celts. But till now it is strongly in contrast with the history of indo-europeans. So the region where the Celts evolved is eastern France, southern Germany and Switzerland. From there it spread to the Iberian peninsula. Celtiberian cultures start on the Iberian peninsula in the 6th century, maybe even later. Hard to believe, that they migrated then back to Gaul and from there to Ireland or that they used the direct way across the sea. Celts came from Gaul via Britannia to Ireland. The inhabitants of Ireland are mainly descendents from older, western people. Celts as invaders were rare, but their culture strong enough to celtizise the island. |
Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2013 at 19:26
| Sorry, I can't agree. We'll leave it at that. |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2013 at 07:14
| You don't have to agree. But it is a history forum, so why don't you bring your arguments? |
Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2013 at 19:56
| beorna: There is a good article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts. You may also care to read J.P. Mallorys Book "The Origins of the Irish". Barry Cunliffe is also worth reading. There are so many scientists who now say that the Celts entered Ireland between about 500BCE and 100 CE, that the evidence really is overwhelming. It's not feasible that Ireland remained unoccupied until the Celts arrived, and there is archeological evidence that points to occupation by people from England and Europe, mainly in the form of weapons and personal items, but also in the construction of homes. Some may have migrated by land bridge, but it seems that the majority of the earliest migration may have been by sea. I haven't read anything authoritative about possible origins of Miletius, whether he was Celtic, Spanish or Egyptian, but I could agree that he actually existed. As for the Book of Invasions-give me a break, it's a book of fairy tales. (Read Wars of the Irish Kings by David Willis McCullough). |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2013 at 08:47
The problem with the Celts is, that we have no data before the 5th century and that reliable informations are much younger. Celts are the carriers of the La-Tene-culture, which evolved from the western hallstatt. The hallstatt is differentiated into a western and a eastern part. The eastern part is or evolved to Illyric. So it is as well not sure whether we can already call the people of the western hallstatt celts or if they were not indoeuropeans who evolved into Celts. That*s why I would support any thesis which lets the Celts be much older than 600 BC. We should as well not expect, that Celts from the eastern France or germany went directly to Ireland. So a Celtic migration to Britain must be older than one to Ireland. The oldest evidence in Britain for celts is probably the Arras culture from the 5th century.
Of course was Ireland not unoccupied before the Celts. Allthough genetic data is problematically, it seems to be allowed, to connect the pre-celtic inhabitants of Ireland with populations in western gaul and on the Iberian peninsula and of course with pre-celtic populations in Britain.
Yes, I agree. It is widely a book of mythic stories and biblical fiction. |
Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2013 at 20:41
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beorna: "The problem with the Celts is, that we have no data before the 5th century and that reliable informations are much younger. Celts are the carriers of the La-Tene-culture, which evolved from the western Hallstatt. The Hallstatt is differentiated into a western and a eastern part. The eastern part is or evolved to Illyric. So it is as well not sure whether we can already call the people of the western Hallstatt Celts or if they were not Indo Europeans who evolved into Celts. That*s why I would support any thesis which lets the Celts be much older than 600 BC.
We should as well not expect, that Celts from the eastern France or Germany went directly to Ireland. So a Celtic migration to Britain must be older than one to Ireland. The oldest evidence in Britain for Celts is probably the Arras culture from the 5th century." I agree with you in that I would also like to see evidence of Celtic existence prior to 600BC. They didn't just appear in a puff of smoke! I would also like to see more evidence of the Celtic origins, although experts say that they originated on the Iberian Peninsula, they share many similarities with Eastern Europeans. |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2013 at 08:44
The problem is, what is a Celt. usually this has to be answered by a linguistic definition. But linguistic evidence is missing for the early times and if we get written sources about the Celts it is often not contemporarily and first of all second hand knowledge. Well, "experts say....", this is so not correct. Only a minority of experts, especially Cunliffe suppose a western origin of Celts, based e.g. on research like those by Koch about the tartessian inscriptions, which Koch interpretates as Celtic. But this is widely rejected. |
Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2013 at 20:12
Yes, I agree. After years of research and discussion, it seems that no really satisfactory answer to the origins of the Celts has been produced. But the majority still prefer the Iberian Peninsula as the "birthplace" of the Celts. |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2013 at 03:15
There is widely satisfying theory about the origins of the Celts. And the knowledge about other people in that eras is not better.
Well, that is simply not correct. |
Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2013 at 07:03
I don't have sufficient knowledge to argue with scientists, but I tend to agree with you. |
Posted By: mojobadshah
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2014 at 18:00
| Pretty much every generation that made its way into Ireland according to myth came out of Scythia. Even Mil came out of Scythia according to the myth. But there is physical evidence to corroborate a Scythian-Celtic connection. The fact that the Irish were so adamant that they came out of Scythia, and the Scots, and the Saxons, and the Swedes must mean that there was at least a cultural connection to the Scythians. |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2014 at 18:16
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The greeks divided the barbarian lands north of them into a western keltike and an eastern skythia.The peoplein the middle between those regions were celtoscythians. That was the simple view of the greeks. Even long after the first classification of these kind, and long after it was obvious, that the people in the barbaria were more heterogenous than just celts and scythians, greek scholars used either the term keltoi or skythai for germanics. When medieval scholar use these terminology, terms like skythia don't mean Scythians, but just people from the middle or eastern europe. Historians, archaeologists, linguists, they all studied Celzs and germanics. No serious scientist would ever classify Celts or germanics as Scythians. |
Posted By: mojobadshah
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2014 at 18:29
| If they're wearing the same clothes, using the same weapons, and their art is Scythian then their must have been a connection. |
Posted By: mojobadshah
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2014 at 18:36
| And Scythia was a real place. All those people refer to it. The Goths were called Getae and Dacian and these were Scythian people. Snorri describes Odin's journey out is Asasaland "Asia" and speaks of Turkik lands nearby e.g Turkmenistan. The dacians bordered Scythia. |
Posted By: mojobadshah
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2014 at 18:37
| Sweden is derived from Swithiod or Scythia... |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2014 at 18:37
Yes, IF! But Celts and Germanics are clearly different to Scythians. |
Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2014 at 19:45
I tend to agree with you. I've always suspected that the Celtic migration was from east to west but I've been over-ruled by people far more knowledgeable on the topic. It seems to me that far too little research has been done in the Pontic Steppe area and its people. The fact that no evidence has been found yet does not mean that it isn't there. ------------- |
Posted By: mojobadshah
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2014 at 20:06
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It seems like there is a question as to whether there is physical evidence of a Scythian-Celtic connection. Is what I've been reading about Scythian forms of clothing, Scythian styled weaponry, and Scythian artforms found in Celtic areas and Scandinavia false? I would not doubt that the Scythians were in Europe. They traveled as far east as Japan. The Iranians in general traveled as far south as Cambodia and Sri Lanka, discovered Australia, and may have even made their way over to the New World in the 3rd century BCE if the Hushein story checks out. |
Posted By: mojobadshah
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2014 at 20:08
| correction: 3rd century CE |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2014 at 04:21
There are cimmero-scythian raids known to Middle europe and we know, that trading connections weren't local in that far days, but already widespread. With such trading foreign styles became known, like the scythian animal style in art. But that is something different than a great scythian migration or that celts and saxons were Scythians. There is also great western and mediterranian e.g. etruscan influence on Celts, which is not making Celts Etruscans. |
Posted By: mojobadshah
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2014 at 12:44
I'm not saying the Celts are Iranian. The Celts speak Celtic languages and the Iranians speak Iranian languages. The Iranians who migrated to Europe became the aristocracy. Clovis called himself a Sicambri "Scythian." The Queen of England, and all the Presidents of the U.S.A. except for maybe Obama, their line can be traced back to the Scythians. I don't find it hard to believe their were migrations into Europe including Ireland that left an effect that is lasting to today. |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2014 at 13:51
But shouldn't such an Iranian aristocracy leave some traces? Shouldn't there be a remarkable difference between an iranian aristocratical culture and its findings and those of the common people? Do you have any evidence for your theory? Not Clovis called himself a Scythian, but Gregor of Tours used the term Sicambri. But why do you translate Sicambri as Scythian? The Queen of England traces her line back to the Scythians? I am able to trace my noble ancestors far back in time and I even share ancestors with the queen. I can tell you, that there is no Scythian among them, who can be proven. And I strongly doubt, that the US presidents can trace their origins back to the Scythians. |
Posted By: mojobadshah
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2014 at 14:20
The Plantagenets were a junior branch of the House of Anjou whose senior branch was the House of Vere whose ancestry was jointly Pictish and Merovingian descending from the ancient Grail House of Scythia. The Sicambri were Scythians. |
Posted By: mojobadshah
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2014 at 14:27
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The Salian Franks, a Germanic speaking people, traced their ancestry to the Sicambri, a clan of Cimmerians, via the Carolingians and Merovigians (cf. Merlin “Born from the Sea”). Clovis (466-511 CE) the Merovingian was responsible for having united the Frankish empire. He was the first Christian king of France, and during his baptism he was referred to as a Sicambri. |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2014 at 15:40
The de Veres can't trace their origins far back than Aubrey who died around 1110 and they were probably Normans. The Anjous can only trace their origins back till Ingelger, who lived in the 9th century. A Tertullus was named as his father, but first in a source from the 12th century. Their family origins is not connected with the merovingians. And besides this, the merovingians have no Scythian origin. I would like to see your evidence for it! At least, the Sigambri appear a several times in ancient sources, as germanics. I would like to see as well your evidence for a Scythian origin. |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2014 at 15:52
No, Gregor only wrote, "proud Sugambri". Whether Clovis, who died one generation before gregor was born, called himself so is unknown. The Sugambri disappeared in the 1st century CE. They were settled left of the Rhine by the Romans after they were defeated. Salians are first mentioned in 357 CE, Franks were first known in 291 CE. Hard to construct any relation between Sugambri and Salii. Merovingian traditions show as well connections with North Sea germanic people, but not with the steppe. |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2014 at 04:12
Not that I believed you, but I googled some Presidents's ancestry cos i was curious. I looked e.g. for Reagan, Bush, Carter, Nixon. The Reagans are the only family as far as I could see, who could maybe claim a long family tradition, if they are really related with the Uí Riagáin. The rest can trace its origins sometimes back till the 16th century. Washington, if the family tree I found is correct, can claim a famous origin via the english de Washington |
Posted By: mojobadshah
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2014 at 07:30
In Roman and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merovingian - Merovingian times, it was a custom to declare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panegyrics - panegyrics . These poetic declarations were held for fun or propaganda to entertain guests and please rulers. Those panegyrics played an important role in the transmission of culture. One of the ritual customs of these poetic declarations is the use of archaic names for contemporary things. Romans were often called Trojans, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salian_Franks - Salian Franks were called Sicambri. An example of this custom is remembered by the 6th century historian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_of_Tours - Gregory of Tours (II, 31), who states that the Merovingian Frankish leader http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_I - Clovis I , on the occasion of his baptism into the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic - Catholic faith, was addressed as a Sicamber by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Remigius - Saint Remigius , the officiating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_of_Rheims - bishop of Rheims . At the crucial moment of Clovis' baptism, Remigius declared, "Now you must bend down your head, you proud Sicamber. Honour what you have burnt. Burn what you have honoured." It is likely that this recalled a link between the Sicambri and the Salian Franks, who were Clovis' people. More examples of Salians being called Sicamber can be found in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panegyrici_Latini - Panegyrici Latini , http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Life_of_King_Sigismund&action=edit&redlink=1 - Life of King Sigismund , http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Life_of_King_Dagobert&action=edit&redlink=1 - Life of King Dagobert and other old texts. |
Posted By: mojobadshah
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2014 at 07:38
|
In Roman and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merovingian - Merovingian times, it was a custom to declare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panegyrics - panegyrics . These poetic declarations were held for fun or propaganda to entertain guests and please rulers. Those panegyrics played an important role in the transmission of culture. One of the ritual customs of these poetic declarations is the use of archaic names for contemporary things. Romans were often called Trojans, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salian_Franks - Salian Franks were called Sicambri. An example of this custom is remembered by the 6th century historian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_of_Tours - Gregory of Tours (II, 31), who states that the Merovingian Frankish leader http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_I - Clovis I , on the occasion of his baptism into the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic - Catholic faith, was addressed as a Sicamber by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Remigius - Saint Remigius , the officiating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_of_Rheims - bishop of Rheims . At the crucial moment of Clovis' baptism, Remigius declared, "Now you must bend down your head, you proud Sicamber. Honour what you have burnt. Burn what you have honoured." It is likely that this recalled a link between the Sicambri and the Salian Franks, who were Clovis' people. More examples of Salians being called Sicamber can be found in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panegyrici_Latini - Panegyrici Latini , http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Life_of_King_Sigismund&action=edit&redlink=1 - Life of King Sigismund , http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Life_of_King_Dagobert&action=edit&redlink=1 - Life of King Dagobert and other old texts. |
Posted By: mojobadshah
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2014 at 07:39
| The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolingian - Carolingian kings of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks - Franks traced http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merovingian - Merovingian ancestry to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples - Germanic tribe of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicambri - Sicambri . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_of_Tours - Gregory of Tours documents in his History of the Franks that when http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_I - Clovis was baptised, he was referred to as a Sicamber with the words "Mitis depone colla, Sicamber, adora quod incendisti, incendi quod adorasti."'. The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicle_of_Fredegar - Chronicle of Fredegar in turn reveals that the Franks believed the Sicambri to be a tribe of Scythian or Cimmerian descent, who had changed their name to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks - Franks in honour of their chieftain Franco in 11 BC. |
Posted By: mojobadshah
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2014 at 07:41
| http://wakeup-world.com/2011/07/04/are-all-but-one-us-presidents-related/ |
Posted By: mojobadshah
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2014 at 07:42
| http://www.whenthenewsstops.org/2012/08/girl-traces-us-presidents-family-tree.html |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2014 at 07:55
The greeks said, noble is who has ancestors, a father or a grandfather, who was known. Greeks and Romans had a long history, while the germanic and celtic nations had no historiography and didn't know much about their history despite sagas. But these sagas contain a lot of fiction, interpretation and falsification. A good example is the Nibelung saga. The Burgundians were destroyed by Huns, but not by Huns of Attila, but by Roman troops of Hunnic origin under Aetius. The Burgundians were as well not visiting Attila, but were destroyed in Gaul. Several people in these saga weren't contemporary and maybe some like Siegfried even fiction. Or look at the Artus myth. An Artus did never exist, but there are several warlords who could have been the real Artus or maybe the mythical Arthus is a mix of all. When the barbarians learned about the mediterranian historiography, they tried to adopt it, like the Romans claimed descendents from the Troans. The Franks have several myths and even the Saxons are during the medieval said to be the rests of the army of Alexander. That is as true as the descendence of some early English dynasties from Wotan or the descendence of the merovingians from a Bistea Neptuni Minotaurus similis. The origins of the franks lay in the dark. So it is possible that the merovingians were descendents of Sugambrian nobility, which is well-known during the times of Augustus. But that's the point. Gregor was educated in these old historiography. So it is very likely, that he named Clovis as Sugambr, because he knew, that during the times of Cesar and Augustus the Sugambri were famous. It is not at all proven, that Remigius used that title. And as i wrote above, a relation between Sugambri and franki seems to be unlikely, cos the Sugambri disappeared from history long before the appearence of the Franks. |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2014 at 08:47
But as you see, even Barak obama!  I have learned several things in the internet. One thing is, that I do not trust genealogies I haven't verified by myself. I am doing family research too and I once found a great family tree of an progenitrix. This tree related here with persian, babylonian, assyrian, makedonian and jewish kings, it even made these progenetrix (and so me) a descendent of pharao necho II. When I tried to verify these tree I very quickly found, that there were, to be handsome, some faults in it. Sometimes a child was added to the wrong father or mother or if a generation or parents weren't know, they were invented. It was a very smart done family tree, but a faked one. I do not know the family research of these young girl. So I don't want to claim she faked it, even not that she made mistakes. But if you can't link the tree here, so that I or others can verify it, I am sceptical. What I concede is, that if you go back in time and use the male and female lines, you can get a lot of people as ancestors. especially if you have anoble person, even if it is just a single one, the chance to be related withlots of nobles is great. I told you above, I share ancestors with the queen, too. The farer you go back in time, the more famous people one can find. E.g. can I trace a line back to Hugo Capet, my 35th greatg-randfather. Hugo Capet is a 4th great-grandson of Imma of Schwaben, who belongs to the Agilolfingers. The Agilolfingers are related with the lethinge, kings of the Lombards. I am as well related with henry I of france, my 33rd great-grandfather. Via him I am related with emperors like Leo Vi and Basileos I (or maybe Michael III  for insider!), via him I am as well with the above mentione Ingelger, the first of the Anjou. In Ireland I am related with Loisig Mac Morda, Donnchad mac Domnaill Remair, Brian Boruma, and tadg mac cathal. I have Charlemagne a several times in my tree, all around the 40th great-grandfather. I have as well Louis IV L'Outremer as 35th great-grandfather. Via him I am related with Alfred the Great, who himself is said to be the 7th grat-grandson of Bertha, a daughter of Charibert I, himself the great-son of Clovis. Clovis wife is a Burgundian, descendent of Gundiok, probably the son of Gundahar of Burgundy. Well, I could go on for hours. And if the young girl is right I share the same ancestor with the US presidents, John Lackland, my 26th great-grandfather.26th great-grandfather means, that John Lackland is 1 of 268.435.456 theoretically grandparents in that generation (if I calculated correct). Just imagine how many others could claim descendence of him, too, if the would knew about their ancestry? |
Posted By: Windemere
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2014 at 11:11
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Thanks for all of the above posts.
There are probably a great many people throughout the world who descend from Charlemagne, Hugh Capet, Brian Boru, Alfred the Great.( Anyone who descends from King John of England (John Lackland) automatically has a descent from Alfred the Great). These people likely have innumerable descendants. But being able to trace the descent is impressive. Hugh Capet's agnatic (male) line is still extant, in the person of the Bourbons and the Braganzas. Brian Boru's agnatic line is also extant, in the person of the Barons Inchiquin. I believe that Eudes the Insane of Vermandois was the last agnatic descendant of Charlemagne. I believe that the Bertha, daughter of Charibert, mentioned above, is Bertha (Bigfoot), the mother of Charlemagne. So this gives Charlemagne a descent from Clovis, and thus connects the Carolingians to the Merovingians. I've found Genealogics.org to be a very useful and dependable genealogy site for tracing noble ancestors and descendants. I've only found one mistake in it, in a German noble family, and it isn't a serious one. In a few places, it is questionable. (It uses very questionable evidence in listing descendants of Henry VIII of England, who may not have any extant descendants at all). But in the main, it's a useful and dependable site.
------------- Windemere |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2014 at 11:51
I allways joke, find one, get all. 
Didn't know that.
Charlemagne's mother is bertha, daughter of heribert de laon. His father is unknown, but his mother was Bertrada, the daughter of Hugobert, seneshal for the merovingians. The Bertha, who was the daughter of Childerich I and Ingoberga, married Aethelberht of Kent. As far as I know was Charlemagne not related with the Merovingians or at least it can't be proven. |
Posted By: Windemere
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2014 at 12:26
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that is true. Bertha Bigfoot, the mother of Charlemagne, was the daughter of Charibert (Heribert) of Laon, but there is no known descent for him from the Merovingians. So the Carlingians and the Merovingians do not connect, after all.
The Bertha mentioned above (the daughter of Childeric and Ingoberga) is a different individual, who apparently does have a Merovingian descent. Thanks for your help. ------------- Windemere |
Posted By: mojobadshah
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2014 at 17:39
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Haven't you seen the King Arthur movie where he's a Sarmation? Also might be worth reading "From Scythia to Camelot." And Celtic god Lugh's weapon is a fiery spear from Persia. Also, the House of Anjou were incorporated into the Grail legend of Parzival as the lineage of Fisher Kings known as Gahumert, Gandin, Percival and his brother Feirefiz. Gahmuert was a corruption of the name Gayomaretan, the first mortal in Zoroastrianism. |
Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2014 at 20:32
As you say,myth! In his book "The Origins of the Irish" J.P.Mallory contends that, essentially, the first Irish came from England and Western Europe, probably France. The Celtic wave took off in Ireland without signs of invasion. It was the Irish who took the Gaelic Culture to Scotland, along with Christianity. There is no evidence of Saxon or Swedish intervention, but, much later in history, there is proof of Viking settlements, probably Danish, I think. ------------- |
Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2014 at 20:37
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Further to my last post, there is much academic argument as to whether or not Mil Espana, or Miletius or his sons ever visited Ireland, although there seems to be some consensus that he did live about the time of Ptomely II. I have not seen any evidence of him having been Scythian, although that's what the myths say. Do you have any references about this? ------------- |
Posted By: mojobadshah
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2014 at 20:56
| Mil means soldier from L. Miletus. He is as just as much a myth as his Scythian origins. But that's still cool. |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2014 at 02:29
I saw the movie. But that what it is, a movie. It is based on a roman commander Lucius Artorius Castus, chief of a sarmatian unit of the Roman army in the late 2nd century. The Artus of the saga mainly fought against the saxons, which was 200 years later. But that's what I said above. The mythical Artus can be a conglomerate of several persons.
Wolfram of Eschenbach probably invented these story in the late 12th or early 13th century, in its first part based on the Parzival of Chretien de Troyes. But the oriental journey is as it seems an invention of Eschenbach. There are a lot of stories, lots of myths, e.g. that the merovingians are descendents of Jesus via Maria Magdalena. Well, a lot of fiction and phantasy. |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2014 at 02:40
Mil espaine is the name, in the latin version miles Hispaniae, which means "soldier from Spain". But Hispaniae is not necessarily Spain. We have such example from Germanic sagas, where there is as well an Hispana, but that has nothing to do with Spain, but with a north German pagus called Haspengau. There is as well a name Pannonia, which is mxed with the Balkanic Pannonia, but is a North Sea isle called Baunonia. |
Posted By: mojobadshah
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2014 at 07:34
Percival was based on the Persian Barzu-nama "Book of Knights. Lancelot comes from Alan of Lot. He had Alanic or Scythian ancestry. we're talking about Scythian culture among the Celts and there appears to have been a significant amount. |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2014 at 09:56
| What shall I say? Any serious scientist who is supporting this? |
Posted By: mojobadshah
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2014 at 10:27
Unless you have a problem with the authors of "From Scythia to Camelot", yes. |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2014 at 10:43
I meant historians and archaeologists or linguists. But of course Littleton is a anthropologist and PhD, but when i see, that he dealt in his later years with Ufos and occult things, then I am not sure. Malcor is a supporter of the Artorius Casticus-theory. I spoke about it above. Parts of the mythical Artus may be from these Artorius Casticus. But this excludes the reported fights against the saxons. These Artus is a late fifth or early sixth century person, not one of the 2nd. And we have to keep in mind, that geoffrey of monmouth wrote in the 12th century, so 1000 years after Casticus and 700 years after the saxon invasion. His Artus legend is not necessarily just based on one story and stories like the grail are not based on him, but on Chretien de troyes or Eschenbach.. It may be influenced by christian mythical legends, but as well by legends from the orient or persia.We have to keep in mind, that this was as well the era of crusades and the grail was a famous theme in those days. |
Posted By: mojobadshah
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2014 at 11:00
I'm no expert linguist but his thesis does appear to check out linguistically. The name Alan comes from the Alans who were Scythians.
|
Posted By: mojobadshah
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2014 at 11:06
| The Arthurian lore is related to the Nart Sagas of the Ossetians who are descendants of the Alans. |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2014 at 11:16
The Alans weren't Scythians, maybe Sarmatians. What they were is an indo-iranian ethnos. Some groups went to gaul and settled there. That is correct. But that's all. |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2014 at 11:19
I don't know the nart sagas. But Arthur is first of all a romano-celtic king. One should search first in the near, then maybe in the distance. |
Posted By: CedricEmrys
Date Posted: 22-Feb-2018 at 12:13
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The people who call themselves the “Irish” but they are not actually “Irish”, the true irish are actually the modern Scottish people. The Scotti people originally inhabited Eirelann, and then raided the Pictland(Scotland), the Scotti were very war-like. Since the Romans never invaded Eirelann they were pretty much still the same as the ancient celts of Britain before the Romans came. The Britons(Romanized British celts) were slightly more “civilized” although still fierce, they were also christian by that time and the Scotti, who were not, relished batte. So after long explaination of why the Scotti were war-like, they invaded the Cymry a lot, never taking them over. They invaded Pictland, settled, called it Scotsland, and stayed there. The scotti in Eirelann were subject to the same Saxon raids as the Britons and then became a mixed culture who called them self the Irish. Later in history they Danes infiltrated Ireland while the O’Neills were trying to quell rebellions while they were the High Kings of all of Ireland. The Basque were a settlement of Celtic people, unlike the Celtiberians who mixed with the native inhabitants of spain, they stayed apart and their Celtic culture morphed into the Basques we know today. Long story short, the original Celts or Eirelann came from Britanny, not Basque country ------------- Buaidh no bàs |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 08-Apr-2019 at 16:36
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Where does the legend of Scotia, the Egyptian princess, fit into this? ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2019 at 06:07
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Scot(i)a is apparently in the Milesian line. Not sure where she comes from. Skadi? Clito? Scathach? Hatshepsut? Yseut? (Iscuit "shield/shoulder"?) Or it might only be a medieval fabrication eponym of the Scots since Scot(i)a doesn't appear by that name before 12th century? Or an anthropomorphisation of scoithin "little flower"? There have been more than one waves of immigrants/invaders/settlers in Irish history according to their traditions. Nin mac Piel ... or sometime between 2368 & 2068? Bith & Birren, Cesara 2957 or ... bc Partholons son of Sera (Hebrew/Greek) 2679 or 2068-2018 & 1988-1738 Fomorians (maritime/"Phoenician") unknown when came, 1738? 1708-1492 Nemedians (related/Scythian) 2349 or 1708-1492 Fir Bolg (maritime/Nemedian/Greek/Thracian/servile) 1934-1897 or 1514-1477 or 1492-1456 Fir Domnan Fir Gailioin Tuatha de Danaan (sea/sky/Greek/Athenian/Scandinavian/Scots/gods) 1897-1700 or 1477-1287 or 1456/1213-1016 Milesians/Gaelic, Crimson/Red Branch (Egyptian/Thracian/Scyths/Spanish/Miletus/Magog) 1700/1698-1031 or 1287-794 or 1076-1016-569 bc Milesian (Jewish/Egyptian) 585-569 bc - ad 76/80-513-843-879 Goidelic 76/80-448/458? "Dravidians" (7th group of invaders in some). (and later Normans, Vikings, English). The order of ones before the last couple/few is different in different sources, but the dates are in order (though two or three different dates systems may confuse). British also has Plant Llyr and Plant Don. I think Irish have at least two or more traces of these, many might be Milesian but some might be Danaan or other, and some might be mixed. There are seemingly different types in the Irish population. Possibly the 4/5 provinces/kingdoms each match a different group? There must be some Atlantean blood from visitors from Atlantis (South America), and one of the 7 invasions might be Atlanteans. Iber & Celtus the 2 sons of Hercules. Irish is Indo-European. P-Celtic and Q-Celtic may be different waves. The homeland of the Indoeuropean family is not certain. Iberians and Basques and Greeks and Egyptians and Indo are all Mediterranean. "1 Hunters (1) 2 Farmers (2) 3 Siberian." (3) "1 Neolithic/Mediterranean (Sergi) (2) 2 Alpine (Ripley) (3) 3 Nordic." (4) Not sure which of the 72 nations of Genesis 10 the Irish might match or be from, but they seem to probably be Japhethite. Once i thought the 7 Japhethite names seemed to match the 7 Irish invasions. Although i no longer think they do match there might still be a match of one or some. Noah - Nuada/Nudd? Nemed? 0 | Japheth/Diphath - Dagda? Dis Pater? Jobath? |-- Gomer - Fomors? Fir Domnan? Tea-mur? 1 | |- Ashkenaz - Angus? Sera? | |- Riphath/Diphath - Partholons? Dis Pater? Bith? 1/2 | '- Togarmah - Armenon? Fir Domnan? Tea-mur? Dobar? Ogma? 1/3 |- Magog/Gog - MacOc? Mabon? Ogma? FirGaileon? Fir-Bolg? Scot? 2 |- Madai - Mide? Nemed? 3 |-- Javan/Juuin | |- Elishah - Eri/Irish? Milesius? Liethali? Leinster? | |- Tarshish - Tara? | |- Kittim - Celts? British? Cruithne? | '- Dodanim - Druids? Tuatha de Danaan? "Dravidians"? 4/7 |- Tubal - Hebrei? Turones? Buile? Ulaid? FirBolg? Partholon? Tuatha? 5 |- Meshech - Milesian? Meath? 6 '- Tiras - Irish? Tara? Irial? "Dravidian"? 7 ( www.irishtype3dna.org .) ------------- NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone. |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2019 at 13:49
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Scotia was supposed to leave Egypt at the end of the "Old Kingdom" with a large group of followers. They were escaping the drought that existed for 20 plus years. This was considered just a myth, until 2 Egyptian ships of the right era, were found in the mud of the upper Thames. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2019 at 03:01
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That is interesting, and combined with other evidence like blue faience beads found in vicinity of Stonehenge, etc it leaves little doubt that there were contacts between Egypt and British isles in ancient times. But there would need to be more research in Egyptian records/remains and/or British/Irish records/remains to prove who/when the contacts were. Likewise need more evidence of who or where Scot(i)a comes from. The ships might or might not be connected with the Scot(i)a story/tradition, and Scot(i)a might or might not have be one of the persons involved with the event/story. The ships by themselves don't answer that. Not sure if i myself might be able to find more evidence on this but it is intriguing to know. End of the Old Kingdom would be time of exodus (Moses 6th & 12th dynasty). Drought might be connected with Joseph (3rd-4th dynasty) or other later one. Wonder if the name is connected with the Hyksos "shepherd kings"? Some connect Scots with Scythians whose name is considered to be from sku "shepherd". The name Scot is suggested by some to be from ysgthru "to cut" with reference to tatooing. List of Egyptian women/females: Auka, Naunet, Mut, Neith, Iusas, Rat, Tanit, Tefnut, Nut, Isis, Unt, Wosret, Aso, Nephthys, Maat, Hathor, Sekhmet/Sekhet? Bastet, Selket, Taweret/Reret, Nebti "two ladies", Wadjet, Nekhebet, lady Ash/Ashnini/Ha (0), Merneith (1), Rasha (3), Sennebti/Djeseretnebti (3)? Nofret/Nefert (3), Dalukah, Hetephires (4), Rhodopis/Rudidet (4th/5th), Ankhesenpepi (6), Nitocris (6), Hatshepsut/Amensis (12), Sit-hathor-yunet (12), Mereret (12), Hetepi (12), Sebeknofru (12), Tetisheri (18), Tanethap, Aahotep, Nefertari, Hatshepsut (18), Eti/Ari (Punt), Giluhepa, Tuya (18), Tiye (18), Taduhepa, Akhenaten (gender originally doubted, 18), Baalat-nese "mistress of lions" (Amarna), Nefertiti (18), Kiya (18), Neferneferuaten (18), KV 55 (18), Merytaten (18), Smenkhkare (gender allegedly doubted, 18), Mutnodjme, Bint-Anat (19), Sutailja/Shoteraja (19), Tewosret/Thuoris (19), Valley of Queens, Arsinoe (33), Berenice (33), Cleopatra 7 (33), Sara "daughter of Jesus", Hypatia, St Catherine. ------------- NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone. |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2019 at 05:40
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wouldn't let me edit post. Red Clay: can you give anymore details on the 2 boats, and/or on Scot(i)a story details? Are the boats these Ferriby boats in this article https://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/10/world/edward-wright-who-unearthed-ancient-boats-on-england-s-coast-dies-at-82.html ? Just finding difficult to find more in search without more details or names. ------------- NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone. |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2019 at 12:05
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I'll see if I can find the article I read 2 years ago. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2019 at 12:35
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Her name was Scota, I just googled and found much info. Most of it is controversial. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2019 at 22:03
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Was the article one of these which i found in my files? (I did google too but only for the boats which i was more interested in.) A pseudo-Biblical account of the origin of the Gaels as the descendants of the Scythian prince Fénius Farsaid, 1 of 71 chieftains who build Nimrod's Tower (ie the Tower of Babel). His grandson Gaedel Glas "cuts" the Irish tongue from the original 72 languages that arose at the time of the dispersal of the nations. In this book the Gaels undergo a series of trials and tribulations that are clearly modelled on those with which the Israelites are tried in the first five or six books of the Old Testament. Gaedel Glas is married to Scota, the daughter of Pharaoh of Egypt. .... There a man called Bregan builds a tower and the city of Braganza. From the top of the tower his son Íth glimpses Ireland. Lorraine Evans in her compelling book, Kingdom of the Ark, reveals archaeological connections between Egypt and Ireland. Evans argues that the connections between the two distant lands were plausible and there is archaeological evidence to support the theory. In 1937 in North Ferriby, Yorkshire, the remains of an ancient boat were discovered. While thought to be a Viking longship at first, continued excavation produced additional ships, wrecked in a storm. Further investigation showed that the boats were much older than Viking ships and were of a type found in the Mediterranean. It was concluded that these boats originated from 2000 years before the Viking age and were radiocarbon dated to around 1400 to 1350 BC. Evans then makes connections to argue that these boats could originate from Egypt, as the timeframe fits the dating of the faience beads. While investigating the origins of the people of Scotland in the Bower manuscript, the Scotichronicon, she discovers the story of Scota, the Egyptian princess and daughter of a pharaoh who fled from Egypt with her husband Gaythelos with a large following of people who arrive in a fleet of ships. They settled in Scotland for a while amongst the natives, until they were forced to leave and landed in Ireland, where they formed the Scotti, and their kings became the high kings of Ireland. In later centuries, they returned to Scotland, defeating the Picts, and giving Scotland its name. Evans then posits the questions: Was the Tara necklace a gift from the Egyptians to a local chieftain after their arrival? Or was the Tara prince actually Egyptian himself? According to Bower's manuscript, Scota's descendants were the high kings of Ireland. In her quest to discover the true identity of `Scota,' as it was not an Egyptian name, she finds within Bower's manuscript that Scota's father is actually named as being Achencres, a Greek version of an Egyptian name. In the work of Manetho, an Egyptian priest, Evans discovers the translation of the name—the pharaoh Achencres was none other than Akhenaten, who reigned in the correct timeframe of 1350 BC. Evans believes that Scota was Meritaten, eldest daughter of Akhenaten and Nefertiti. The third eldest daughter, Ankhesenpaaten, married her half-brother, King Tutankhamun, son of Akhenaten and his secondary wife, Kiya. The controversial religious shift to the god Aten caused conflict with the Amun priesthood, who reasserted their authority after Akhenaten's reign ended and he disappeared from history. This conflict and the rumored deaths by plague would have been sufficient motivation for the pharaoh's eldest daughter to accept a foreign prince in marriage, rather than being Tut's wife as would have been normal protocol, and to flee from the conflicted country. In the Annals of the Four Masters, dating to 1632-36, Scota's husband is named Eremon, and it is Eremon and Eber who divide the land of Ireland between them, with Eremon in the north and Eber in the south. What is interesting to me about this version is the similarity between the division of Ireland and the division of Egypt itself. Egypt was divided into Upper and Lower Egypt, unified by a central connecting city, Memphis. If we consider the existing myths of Ireland's legends, it, too, was divided to have a central site of unity, known as Mide, the omphalos of Ireland. Within Mide is where the Hill of Tara is situated, as a site of the High Kingship, representing the unity of the land and all of its people. Sadly, it is in the battle for Ireland at Slieve Mish, as recorded in the Lebor Gabala, that Scota meets a tragic end and is killed. After her death in this battle, the war continued on at Tailtinn against the three kings of the Tuatha de Danaan, the husbands of the Goddesses Banba, Fodla, and Eriu: MacCuill, MacCeacht, and MacGreine. The sons of Mil, after prolonged battle, conquered the de Danaans and took the seat of Tara. According to the Bower manuscript, Scota was buried "between Sliab Mis and the sea," and her grave, Fert Scota, is found in a glen located in Glenscota. The name Scota/Scotia/Scotland/Scots/Scottish/Scotch/Scott (Ysgotiaid?) might be from either: Cothraige (Cashel) Votadini/Gododin/Gustodin (compare Godalente, Godeu, Godebog) Attacotti Lady of Astolat/Shallot Iseut/Yseut (Tristan, Snowdon/Windsor) scoithin "little flower" ysgwydwyn "white shield" (ysgodogion?) iscuit/iscuid "shield/shoulder(s)" (ysgotiaid?) ysgodion "inhabitants of the shades/coverts" (ysgodogion?) Ysgotiaid or Ysgodogion "wilds" or "unsettled residences" or "hunting" or "tending flocks"? Kit's Coty house (some sources say the coty is coit "wood") Scathach "shadowy one" (war goddess, Dissethach, Skye) ysgthru "to cut (tatoo)", scothaim "tattooed (warrior)" Constantine/Custennyn/Celestine Polin Esgob? Octa (Jute, Kent) Ocitis/Sketis Goths/Geats (compare God/Gott) Petreius Cotta &/or the Cottae subbranch of Aureli gens Succoth Ashkuz/Ashkenaz Scythian (itself from sku "shepherd") ------------- NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone. |