Did mind the USA funding the Nazi war effort and providing war machines for it.

2nd time, oh yes the USA funded the German war effort in WW1 as well.

Both times just sat back got rich from both sides whilst they died.

How honourable.

Now that WAS an anti american statement, however being anti american does not make it untrue.

 

On my last trip to Europe, it's been a few years, but I had an opportunity to visit Normandy.  I'm not going to get into a big thing about wether or not what you've stated is true or not.

 

It isn't anti American, it's nonsense.  I would like to hear you state the same things, standing where I stood, looking at the thousands of white crosses most of them American.  Men who never came home.  Just so folks like you wouldn't have to speak German.

 

My Grandfather was a Marine, 4th Brigade,  1st Marine Expeditionary Force, 1918.  He was at Chateau Thiery/ Belleau Wood.  They were not "Untrained" they were untested.  His Co. went into the battle with 180+.  He was one of three that survived the fight.  Yes it was late in the war, but I don't think it mattered much to the 175 or so men in his company who didn't survive.  But I would bet it mattered a whole lot to the French whose butts the Marines saved when the Germans overran the French positions.

My Father was not in Europe in WWII, he was in the Pacific theater. 

 

As to the US sitting back and getting rich, first there were folks on both sides who profitted from the war.

The amount of treasure the US spent on the war, would, in todays money, be in the trillions.  Just the amount spent on the Manhatten project alone, would have been finacially beyond any other country.

Lend Lease to Brittain and Russia was in the Billions, much of it never repaid.

 

Being anti American has always been a popular indoor sport, I don't mind, as long as you get the reality right. 

The guys under the white crosses never say anything, so I don't know how they feel about it.

 

  

 

I am getting tired of this.  Provide credible sources, and while your at it, see if you could get the Russians to pay the US back for the 80,000 trucks and god knows what else and how much we sent them.

I wonder if they ever think about the thousands of non Russian Merchant Seamen who died getting the stuff to them.

 

 

Of course, the UK and France were attacked, /in their treaty that Hitler broke, a broken treaty is a political attack/ and US was attacked before it entered the war. It was clear that Hittler will gobble up everything in Europe, and attack the UK and France physically too. So declaring war on Germany was an act of defence; and it could have been done earlier, during the Sudeten Crisis, instead of the politics of apeasment, and most probably then the Germans themselves would have get rid of Hitler, and WWII could be avoided. A country enters a war when it's personally threatened, and US did this in time when it was attacked; before this it wasn't threatened and didn't have the reason to do so.

 

Chemberlain sold the Check people to the Germans /the Munich Agreement/ and sat on his hands, while Nazies overran half Europe. France sold itself little later, directly, that's why they had Vichy, that was shamefully collaborating in hunting down the French Jews. The Bulgarian Tzar Boris begged England for help, and was refused such, while the Germans were about to occupy Bulgaria; so Bulgaria was forced to become a passive ally in order not to be smashed.

 

If it makes you feel better that US is a bad egg among noble others, go ahead. I can't do that, sorry. There is no nobleness in politics, in any politics, of any county, only interests /which is just darwinian, everyone is primarily interested in his/hers own survival/. Nobleness is found only in the souls of soldiers who died, for their country or other, and lost their chances to stay here and talk nice talks about who is what and why, drinking a cup ot something.

That is not exactly true. The Russians were beating the Germans on the Eastern Front only because the rest of the Allies were beating them on the Western, and Southern ones, and in the Pacific. And what avout the US help to Russia in weapons and money?

 

The US was instrumental in winning WWII, and Churchil knew that; here an eyewitness I can trust.

I am away on a little history trip today, ( im so excited!!!!).

Let me explain my comments in another thread when i get back.

Azita

 

I don't know about the atmosphere in Australia, I do know "Dugout Doug." wasn't very popular there.

However, my father's Squadron, I forget the designations, their nickname was "Island Hoppers", would pull into Christ Church NZ.  He said it was the closest thing to "Home Leave".  From Dad, "You always felt like you had just stepped out of a war and into a church supper.  They couldn't do enough to please you, or seemed like it.  For some reason, you always felt welcome there".

 

 

 

There are more than a few historians that look at WWI and II, the Korean Conflict and  the Cold War, as one continuous conflict, ending only with the collapse of the Soviet Union.

 

Azita, if you want a more ground level approach to the American psyche during the period 1918 to 1941, read "The Time Between Wars".   I forget the author's name but if you Google it should pop up. 

To fully understand much of what we are speaking of, you have to look at the political atmosphere in the US ca 1900 to 1915-16.  Also, remember that the US was not yet the industrial powerhouse it turned into during WWII.  A debtor nation before 1917-18?  I don't know about that one, hard to believe, knowing what I know about our resources at the time.  But I do know one thing, in 1941 Admiral Yamamoto got it right when he said "I fear all we have done is to wake a sleeping giant, and fill him with a terrible resolve".

 

To give you an idea of the raw industrial power of the US at that time, when the War Dept started planning for wartime production, it was estimated that it would take until 1965 to reach maximum mobilization.  That was the year I graduated from HS.

That means that when the war ended, the US was still 20 years from maxing out it's manpower and industrial might. Just a little staggering, when you think about it.

 

 

 

     

The Pacific theatre was Japan vs. US. 

The allies did not beat anyone on the Western front until near the end of the war

Most of WW2, in Europe, was Germany vs. Russia. Most of the German soldiers died battling against Russians.

The most critical campaign was Operation Barbarossa. The Russians, aided by a harsh winter, beat the Germans without any help. Did you send 80,000 trucks for the Battle of Stalingrad? When exactly did you send substantial aid? 

The way I see it, when the Russians started to receive US aid, tables were already turned and the Russian war industry could already produce more weaponry than the Nazis.... 

 

It has nothing to do with the Way You See It.  Recorded History and fact go against everything you've posted.

In forum speak, your "Half Assing" it.  Google some of your ideas before you come on here.  We deal in facts and real history, not Nationalistic BS, or anti American bs, based on a distorted and biased view of History.

If you had, you would know the when and what, and you would know about things like the "Murmansk Run" and you wouldn't be making a fool of yourself.

 

 

 

 

For the Persian Corridor. See: http://www.history.army.mil/books/70-7_09.htm - .

I knew the MM officer that docked the first convoy in Yiddish.  They thought of everything, except someone who spoke Russian.   Jerome[Jerry] Kaplan was the officer on deck and heard someone on the dock swear in Yiddish, which he spoke fluently.  He docked the entire convoy in Yiddish.  And yes, it was, as he described it, "A special kind of hell".  He made several convoys after. 

 

 

 

http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Production/Russia/Lend-Lease.htm

Moreover, during Operation Barbarossa, which was the MOST CRITICAL campaign of WW2, since a Soviet defeat would mean a total collapse of the Eastern Front and the end of war in Europe, the USSR had zero aid from the West.

Nope, I am not Anti-American at all. That's Red clay's nationalistic instincts coming alive... 

Nope, I am not Anti-American at all. That's Red clay's nationalistic instincts coming alive... 

 

I was addressing the thread in general.  Trust me, if my "nationalistic instincts" had anything to do with it, you'd be googling for History forums.

 

I've seen those numbers, I wanted you to find them yourself.  Good history is factual and researched well. 

 

BTW- of the 14,800 planes the US sent, roughly 10,000 were Bell Aircobra Fighter/Ground support planes.  And the 80,000 trucks were an actual figure not my own construct.

 

Consider also that the US was arming and equipping it's own forces as well.  Esp. in the early days of the war.  Prior to 1941 the US Army was rated 16th in the world, the Navy was rated 6th.  We had a lot of catching up to do for our own forces.  

On the Soviet side, what they did with their vital facilities, moving them to the other side of the Urals, out of Nazi Bomber range, and still be able to produce 30,000 T 34's was an absolutely staggering effort.  Stalin drew on every resource available to him for that move, including the inventor of the production line, Henry Ford, and the genius behind the Liberty ships, Henry J Kaiser.

 

Both fronts were critical.  The Nazis had pulled troops from the Western Atlantic Seawall to bolster the Eastern front.  That was the main reason for some of the D Day landings being less contested than Omaha. 

 

I have often wondered if there was an effort on the part of some in the Nazi Hierarchy to deliberately advise Hitler to ignore his time lines and proved military common sense in opening the Russian front, and inexplicably declare war on the US.

 

Materially, Germany itself wasn't ready for the war.  They started the war with less than 100 hundred U Boats, and the list goes on.  The next time you see a documentary on WWII, pay attention to the extensive reliance of the Nazis on Horses to pull Artillery and supply wagons.  They were fighting a modern war, with the technology left over from the last war.  At the same time, they were experimenting with Rockets and jets.  It never made sense to me, unless there was a core of folks who didn't want the Nazis to succeed, and pushed AH to move before they were ready.

 

 

 

 

Those that will criticize the US will do so regardless if this thread is closed.  The way I see it, the more factual history we post on this, the more upset the naysayers will get.

 

 

 

 

Yup there's always that. Otoh...there's also a line where the 'hope as a technique' is no longer an effective option simply because of the inability of the troublemaker to intellectually accept any thing other then garbage they spew. Hence the anti Semite Palestinian supporter, couching his phraseology to ensure no one knows he really supports terrorist groups and their efforts to murder innocent Israeli's. Or there's the 'south shall rise again shitheads' whose bigotry remains couched in their attempts to justify states rights and slavery.

 

 

In the end your right Red; your a hard headed American Yankee. But I am hard ass man of the high lonesome lonesome... the llano and the coulee...and mountains and desert dawns that take your breath away. And there isn't much difference.

 

So as a Mod I'm watching this thread. And that's not to say you aint. I also am reluctant to close it. I'd like to see something reasonably accurate and informative from it.

 

 

I detest anti-americanism, wannabe crybaby, slick, feigned intellectualists who have forgotten conviently the treasure and blood this nation has given in their defense. F*ckers make me wanna puke. But if we going play then last play as objectively to the 1st as we can and standards allow.

 

What makes this place different whether personal ideologies amongst members or staff clash.

 

But until the line is crossed, as far as I'm concerned, then the snake gets to keep his head. When it is... off goes the goddamn head. As I've noted elsewhere MM...I know when that is. So don't presume to believe I don't or it wont happen.

 

Why I got them green stars. Iow. Make and voice your complaints and or comments... you intelligent to do it without crossing the line that indicates you take it internally pm...you always have been...here and yon. We ain't bashing ya for that. Participate on this thread or dont. Dont make a little red apple to me. Because bl...whether you and I detest them.... until they cross ......they safe.

 

But until ya get them stars, don't worry about whether those that have them; ain't watching and moding when it's necessary.

 

Not in your Mos as a duty requirement. And they are.

 

 

And TITAN let me give ya some unofficial friendly advice.....watch closely how you phrase your counter responses and posts; to opinions not shared or rejection of your rhetoric. Cause if ya don't.....well you already know what will happen. Because frankly, I don't care about your fanaticism or your unwillingness to accept intellectual, objective, analysis, commentary and proofs offered.

 

 

 

Just means ya a fanatic not a historian. 

 

 

 

But you damn sure better be respectful to your fellow members and staff or your ass is gone.

 

 

Period.

 

 

 

Why exactly can't you respond to this simple claim=fact? During the first two critical years of  WW2 (1939-1941), who was the one who stopped Germany? 

Have you ever thought your idea that you saved the world might be exaggerated? Yes you helped us but then again the French helped you with your independence...

It's good to see the whole history not only the parts that make you feel superior or proud. 

Why exactly can't you respond to this simple claim=fact? During the first two critical years of  WW2 (1939-1941), who was the one who stopped Germany? 

 

 

Britain.  The Brits were the first to stop the Nazis.  The Battle of Britain.  The inability to win the Air War over Britain, caused ol'Adolph to cancel OP. Sealion, the Invasion of Britain.  He was more interested in obtaining "living space" for his Reich, meaning the vast Russian steppe.

 

The US didn't officially enter the War until Dec. 1941.  But Lend Lease was in effect much earlier. 

But you are right in a way, invading Russia was Hitler's biggest mistake, and insured the Nazis would ultimately lose the war.

 

However his 2nd biggest mistake was declaring war on the US.  Giving Roosevelt the green light.  I believe the Declaration came 3 days after Pearl Harbor,  by this time, "the sleeping giant" was awake.  It gave Roosevelt everything he needed to put the country into full wartime mobilization.

 

Hitler cut his own throat!  Yes, we also were now fighting a 2 front war, but we had the resources to do this.  So did Russia, however I don't believe either the US and Britain, or the Russians, alone, could have defeated the Nazis.  Without 2 fronts,  It probably would have been a stalemate sit, Leading to a Korean War type "Truce".  Or, the Bomb would have ultimately ended the thing.

 

 

 

 

If you have a problem with any member of staff, take it to PM to me or Cyrus, not on open forum.  Read the CoC please.

 

The battle of Britain was an air battle. The only reason Britain did not fall, was the English channel. That kept the Nazis out, not the air battle! After all, Hitler could not divert all his air force against Britain because he had other fronts too. But even if he had defeated the RAF, his troops could never make it to Britain. The Brits could have mustered at least a million soldiers on the south coasts of England. How could Hitler transfer his army to England? At best he could have been transfering only a few thousand troops per day.... which would have been outnumbered and butchered by huge British armies while British artillery would strike against any German air support. 

Hitler had a hard time conquering Crete which was defended by a small army, and he still lost 5,000 parachuters... How could he possibly conquer Great Britain? 

What the Brits accomplished was merely a considerable damage to the German air force. Britain is an island after all, I was talking about continental Europe. The only army that defeated the Nazis by 1941 was the Red Army.

 

There is a whole lot that could be said about the nonsense being spouted on this thread, but what's the point?  The people spouting it won't change their mind, actual history will remain what it always is and the world will go on, complete with the usual roster of flamers and trolls loudly denying reality or twisting it to their own narrow visions.

I have in this thread and others, been accused of being unable to admit I'm wrong,  Not true.  MM I admit you were right.

 

 

 

 

At last, I am not alone here....

Moreover, way before the U.S. got involved, this is what crushed the Nazis....

With worse weapons and worse training, the Red Army had only one advantage: They outnumbered the Germans. Stalin could muster huge armies that were sacrificed just to delay the German advance, until the harsh Russian winter could finish them off, with the aid of Siberian troops that were trained to fight in severe cold weather.   

Numbers don't lie. The Russians lost more soldiers than any other nation that was involved in WW2. 

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