America under Islam
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: Alternative History
Forum Discription: Discussion of Unorthodox Historical Theories & Approaches
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=32943
Printed Date: 29-Apr-2024 at 02:15
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: America under Islam
Posted By: Nick1986
Subject: America under Islam
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2013 at 12:18
 In an alternative history, Christopher Columbus is mocked and dismissed by both the Spanish and Portuguese, so he offers his services to the Turks. The sultan provides Columbus with a ship and promise of reward if he claims the new land for Islam. What would the USA be like today if it was colonised by Muslims rather than the English and Spaniards? Would Europe be more or less advanced, and would America be independent or remain under the caliph's control? ------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Replies:
Posted By: Toltec
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2013 at 10:06
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I guess it would be a lot more peaceful, fewer foreign wars, crime free, less dictatorships genocides and human rights abuses caused around the world, less US backed terrorism worldwide, better food and less fundamentalist religion than now. All in all a big improvement I'd say, start handing out those Korans in schools. ------------- Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out? http://historyplanet.wordpress.com - History Planet Website <br / |
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2013 at 20:21
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Does that mean the Turks would be the superpower of the modern age? With New World gold, they could easily fund further expansionism into Europe, perhaps stretching their boundaries as far as Germany
------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2013 at 20:52
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Natives would have been as equally brutalized and exploited. Mandatory conversions and enslavements ie. mass slavery will occur. Indigenous status if even obtained, would still have led to natives being marginalized, exploited and oppressed by Islam; as evidenced by their earlier actual expansion across North Africa, the greater Middle East and the Iberian penisular. Jizya or dhimma would have been the least of the natives problems. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2013 at 22:17
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Columbus sailing for Islam would not have changed the colonization of North America which, with the obvious exception of Mexico, had been passed up by the Spanish precisely because they viewed it as without the developed subject peoples that their colonization depended upon. So the English, Dutch, French, and Swedish colonists of North America would have left a Protestant North America facing down the Islamic south below the Rio Grande. On the plus side, Latin America would still have Selma Hayak and Shakira, but would still be an economic backwater locked in centuries of solitude.
Oh yes, I forgot to count the Orthodox Russians of the Northwest and Alaska. They would have been with us also. ------------- Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì |
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 13:50
So cowboys and Muslims would fight to conquer the West? Wonder which side would ultimately win? ------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 14:08
The French trappers and various Mountain Men of the 'pays d'en haut and coureurs des bois'... coupled with the pesky redskins of the SW. Particularly the N'de, Dine and the nʉmʉ tekwapʉ .Ya got to remember to keep this chronologically straight.... vaqueros come latter.
------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 14:48
That is an interesting scenario. I can see muslims gaining early footholds in the New World, but they would also face alot of Christian competition from Spain, France, Great Britain etc as soon as they discovered the sailing routes. The routes would be discovered soon as the Spanish, French British would make it a national priority.
That is assuming that the Spanish, Portuguese and others respected Turkish claims. Not only were these nations not inclined to respect Turkish claims, but the Spanish and Portuguese had excellent sailing skills and were far closer geographically to the New World than Turkey.
My guess is that Christian colonies would develop very close to and at the same pace as the Islamic ones. In the long run, the outnumbered and logistically stretched Muslims would hold on to their Carribean Island holdings and the Yucatan Penninsula (easier to defend, more culturally insulated) but the competing Christians would colonize and / or capture most of the other areas.
One interesting spinoff would be Cuba. Would an Islamic Cuba go communist?
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Posted By: Azita
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 15:27
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OK, I confess that this comment is rather provocative, I hope the hard of thinking wont get too excited. The USA was NOT colonised BY Muslims. But it was colonised USING Muslims, Millions of Muslims slaves, from British colonial time to the late 19th century. Azita |
Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 16:07
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It would be a muslim territory and not many people would want to immigrate, including muslims, who also prefer free world. -------------  |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 18:18
Not just the Brits...by definition that would also include Muslim slaves sold, after capture and prior to conversion, by Muslim slave traders in Africa the ME and India. Not to mention the same source servicing the French-Dutch-Spanish and Portuguese. Muslims made some of the greatest of slave traders. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 19:35
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No Rock n' Roll that's for sure... ------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2013 at 00:01
Could you provide some credible sources for those numbers. I'm somewhat familiar with the slave trade, primarily dealing with various regions they came from and social and religious practices. The numbers don't jive with what I have read over the years. Particularly when some of the most active slavers were themselves Islamic, I think you will find the actual number quite low.
------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: Azita
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2013 at 06:57
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What religion would have been predominate in the the Arab-controlled Trans-Saharan region? BUT, the conversion to Islam would have been forced, so I concede that most of the slaves would not have been "true" muslims. The traders that the slavers deal with, many would be Muslims. Muslims were not "supposed " to enslave other Muslims, im sure we all know how strictly the word of Allah is adhered too.......... millions of Muslims to America,? ok as a salve to the usual reaction, tens of thousands out of the millions. hope that makes things better. |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2013 at 09:36
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Azita, if you want something to chew on, look into the evidence of Islamic influence in Pre-Columbian Southeast US. There are several scientists who have been researching this for the last 3-4 years. It was all started by an epigrapher who started looking at place names. Example, Tallahasee. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2013 at 08:58
I thought the four string guitar was a Saracen invention. The backbeat was originally derived from traditional African drumming ------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2013 at 13:39
You're talking about Oud which has generally mellow and relaxed tunes. I don't think an Islamic America would invent something upbeat like Rock n' Roll but then that's my opinion. ------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2013 at 15:04
Interesting topic, but against forum rules to openly discuss. ------------- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2013 at 15:16
In my view, anything can be discussed as long as people remain civil ------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2013 at 15:19
If it was it wouldn't be. This is not a topic dealing with proselytization or extreme nationalism but of a historical alternate version of NA colonization....government...conditions...effects...repercussions and social cultural development....among a few. Iow. old dog don't create that which is not necessary.....if there's a beef ya know the drill.....take it PM. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2013 at 15:37
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Interesting topic, but against forum rules to openly discuss. In my view, anything can be discussed as long as people remain civil [/QUOTE] Not according to posts on this forum by administrators, and the sheer number of people banned or punished for relatively innocuous remarks. The preponderance of evidence is against you on this one. ------------- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2013 at 15:39
Not according to posts on this forum by administrators, and the sheer number of people banned or punished for relatively innocuous remarks. The preponderance of evidence is against you on this one, and Islam is a hot-button topic not amenable to criticism. If you really want to have this as an open discussion, without arbitrary determinations of what is "civil", say so in print, right here, and I'll take you up on it, but remember, History can be a harsh and unforgiving mistress. ------------- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2013 at 16:30
What is an innocuous remark or not; and what is subsequently viewed as a violation, which may or may not be acted on, or in what ever fashion...is not your responsibility to determine. Nor is it yours to determine what is 'civil' for the purpose of determining the aforementioned or in the moderation of the forum at large. You know this. I have been required to restate this on no less then four occasions this week. If this is your concern and you feel there has been an intemperate display and you have specific examples to defend your allegation...then you know the drill. PM the admin-owner is your option. Not open forum. I just stated it above. I wont do it again. For what ever reason you've decided to make it an issue and apparently decided to deliberately disregard my comment. The consequence? Do it again and I'll suspend you for trolling and failing to adhere to staff guidance. As of now your warned. Bl? If your no longer happy with being here then leave...or adhere to the decisions made by staff no matter who or why they were made. But what you wont be allowed to do is challenge the authority of the staff. CV ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2013 at 07:37
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I fully support my associate here. We are trying to secure a civil atmosphere here; and if someone, anyone, is dissatisfied, there is another level one can go to and voice his/her dissatisfaction.
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2013 at 22:18
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Huh? "Millions of Muslim slaves?" Well I do confess that it was Muslim leaders that did confine millions of persons in West Africa under their control and sell them to the highest bidders.
Is that what you had in mind to say? regards, Ron |
Posted By: KongMing
Date Posted: 02-Dec-2013 at 16:10
No Rock'n Roll? THOSE HEATHEN MOHAMMEDANS!!!! [TUBE]p4stSQXgfuY[/TUBE] Go forth and conquer the American Caliphate, dear Emperor!!!
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2014 at 00:57
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Yeah, so I can say anything regarding Islam here?
I doubt it! Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: julian-the-apostate
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2014 at 10:35
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The Spanish gained their rapid foothold in South America mainly because by sheer coincidence the Inca had a myth that their fair skinned creator god would return from the Western ocean bringing the last age of the Inca to an end, so when a few hundred fair skinned Europeans turned up from the West, the Inca didn't put up any resistance, they welcomed the Spanish as returning gods and surrendered their empire and civilisation.
By the time they realised they weren't gods it was too late. Imagine if a few hundred dark skinned, turbaned guys had turned up looking for trouble instead? Do you think the Incan Empire would have been so friendly...? ------------- Carthago delander est |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2014 at 01:00
Maybe? But I doubt it! Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |