So, its may 1941 and you are the Fuhrer of Germany
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: Alternative History
Forum Discription: Discussion of Unorthodox Historical Theories & Approaches
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31413
Printed Date: 24-Apr-2024 at 23:38
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Topic: So, its may 1941 and you are the Fuhrer of Germany
Posted By: Alcebiades
Subject: So, its may 1941 and you are the Fuhrer of Germany
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2012 at 13:42
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How do you go on to capitalize on your initial victories and win the
war? Your western flank is secure, as you crushed the French militarily,
and the governments of Spain and Portugal are very friendly towards
you. Holland and Belgium have submitted without much fighting. To the
north, Great Britain is still a nuisance, but you know they lack the
strenght to launch a continental invasion by themselves. To the East,
you control Poland and the adjacent slavic states. Further East lies the
might of the Soviet Union, and you have a non-agression pact with them. What do you do next if you are the man calling the shots? |
Replies:
Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2012 at 13:54
I'd arrest myself 
Sorry, Alcebiades, I didn't mean to be a throll, I just couldn't resist . Welcome to AE, btw, and have a great time! ------------- |
Posted By: Alcebiades
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2012 at 14:31
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Belive it or not I´ve been a lurker here for over 5 years, I primarily post at the History board of Gamefaqs and they often link to this place. Dont know why just now I created an account though, I´m 26 and I´ve been hooked on history since I was 6 years old. I´m an amateur historian though, I wanted to study history in college but ended up settling for law in order to pay my bills. History is more like a hobby, but I think I read more history books than law books, including all the classics such as Herodotus, Thucydides, Edward Gibbon, Eric Hobsbawn etc.... Im a Brazillian who speaks good english so I´m restricted to read what can be found in english or portuguese. |
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2012 at 14:54
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Get the Russians and Japanese to attack America but ensure Germany remains neutral. Then jump in and attack the last country still standing
------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2012 at 15:02
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Probably going to have to attack the Soviet Union as two mutually exclusive, and expansive totalatarian systems cannot co exist that close to each other.
But, the USSR would not be attacked with the goal of total political and cultural dominance. Rather, there would be no atrocities against any civilians. Genuine and real alternative governments (of suitable pro German persuasion) would be established in Belarus, Ukraine, the baltics etc.
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Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2012 at 17:25
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I wouldn't attack the USSR right now, it's a country of ginourmous resources, and under a totalitarian regime that uses those to the max they are virtually unbeatable. I'd support the Japanese, and wait untill they get very strong and overrun China, then with them surround USSR from the both sides and hit at the same time - even a beghemot cannot take easily a on double rake. I'd plan my technology better, to suit the poor Russian infrastructure, and take the attack in the summer, so my tanks don't sink in the mud due to lack of roads around Kursk.
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Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2012 at 17:39
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I do not take operational command away from my armed forces.
------------- What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture. |
Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2012 at 17:41
Well, I'm glad for having you here, bro! Life makes us make compromises, but it cannot take away our hobbies - and true amateurs are frequently as knowledgeable as professionals, they are "lovers" /amo=love/ of their hobby, and not afraid for their professional status, about which the professionals are, so they are free to speak their mind - hence, they make great conversationalists.Portuguese is one of my languages on a list to learn one day, primarily for reading poetry - it's one of the most musical and beautiful languages ever, and, accidentally, Brazil is one of my dream countries that I hope to see one day... But this is besides the OP here, so I'll stop. ------------- |
Posted By: Alcebiades
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2012 at 11:11
| Nice, if you have any questions about portuguese literature or just Brasil in general feel free to PM me. Not selling my fish here, but this is a great time to visit Brasil. We´re not as fashionable as China or India, but we are growing just as much as them and I´d dare say that the average brazilian lives better than the average Indian or Chinese. I can definatly point you on the right direction if you ever come down. |
Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2012 at 12:37
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Thank you, bro, you can be sure that I'll use your most generous offer.
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Posted By: Toltec
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2012 at 00:42
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A being as I've already promised the people lebansraum in the east, not invading Russia would be a bit of a backdown. As Russia is building arms faster than me and everyday I delay they are comparatively stronger. I guess invading Russia is the only option. Most likely it will work if I attack early enough, only winter can stop me. Lets hope the British don;t invade Greece and delay the invasion for a few weeks...... ------------- Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out? http://historyplanet.wordpress.com - History Planet Website <br / |
Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2012 at 04:06
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Well, I think Germany lost mainly because it attacked Russia at this time and got sandwiched between the West and Russia, no one can take this for long. Russia's backwardness worked against the Germans, not for them - again I'll bring the tanks are Kursk, stuck in the mud' Russia can weather much due to sheer manpower, and the traditional lack of care of the Russian military man about the human cost. Keeping a peace with Stalin at the time, and support the Japanese so I can surround Russia - this is what I'd do.
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Posted By: Rossef
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2012 at 18:00
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.................................................................Clean up incompotent military staffs and let compotent generals and economists to mechanized the army. Vast effort to secure at least non-hostile relationship with Americans, and secure business-relation with the Communists. Govern Europe to achieve economic prospeity an win back (at least not getting hated) by the locals. .................................................................................................................................................................. This post was in direct violation of the rule on conduct #5 and 6: "... 5. Rude insults, defamatory remarks, offensive images,
cursing, .... so it was corrected by me DQ ------------- |
Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2012 at 18:21
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Rossef, I'd reccomend you to read the rules of the forum http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6512&FID=45&PR=3&PID=116423#116423 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6512&FID=45&PR=3&PID=116423#116423 and redo your last post, otherwise I'll have to erase some of it. No hate speech, nationalist innuendo, and foul language are accepted here, even in an Alternative History thread. I'll give you half on hour to redo your post, and if not changed, I'll do it for you. Welcome to the forum! ------------- |
Posted By: Rossef
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2012 at 20:08
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Not sure what you mean. I don't support Nazism or ideology of racial purity. However, it would be politically unacceptable to just release the Jews that the Nazi Party rounded up prior to WWII. That would cause political and moral chaos, which would threaten German regime. The news would be released, but not until the world is ready and the regime secured. |
Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2012 at 20:20
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I mean that - your first and last sentence were in violation with the rules here - especially the last one, because EU is nothing like a Nazy system, and Nazism was never intending to make a union of free democratic countries that help each other; Nazism was a gruesome shauvinistic-imperialistic ideology, that destroyed what they conquer, and planned to make out of the conquered people slaves, not citizens; and had no capacity to build anything like EU. To make a parallel between Nazi Germany and modern EU is uncorrect, to say the least; and at it's worse it can be seen as pro-Nazi propaganda. I think that the member who made the thread wanted us to concentrate on pure military moves, not on the worse and most inhumane actions of Nazi Germany, actions that are to be forever denounced. This thread can go out of course really fast if we are not careful. ------------- |
Posted By: Rossef
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2012 at 20:35
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Alright. I was saying Nazi Germany could have become more like EU if they didn't went overboard with their fanatical ideologies as they had military and economic means to achieve European unity. German military could had different chain of command and maybe prolonged the wars a little longer. I do see your concern... it's noted. Still, it would have been futile in the long-term
scheme of things. To quote
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Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2012 at 21:04
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I see, you would make a Nazi Germany with a human face ...but the very nature of Nazism was totalitarian, and even if they didn't go fanatic and anti-Semitic, in the best version they would make something like the USSR in it's best days /not the Stalin days/. EU is based on equality of democratic countries, and West Germany was one of the 6 initial partners who started the EU, but this was post-Nazi Germany. Totalitarian systems like Nazism and communism cannot create democratic structures that are against their very basis ideas. If Nazism could be human, it wouldn't be Nazism to start with, and if Hitler could have been say, Theodor Heuss, he wouldn't be Hitler. ------------- |
Posted By: Rossef
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2012 at 21:18
| I was thinking more like the Chinese regime model instead of EU's democracy, but something like that I suppose. |
Posted By: Sylla1
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2012 at 22:32
Back to the OP, this was the status of WW2 by the late May 1941: - the land Balkan campaign, Operations 25 (Yugoslavia) & Marita (Greece) had finished (with the Hungarian & Bulgarian help) and Operation Merkur (Crete) was ongoing; - the Luftwaffe and the RAF were bombing each others' homeland, -- The Blitz was contained in the UK, -- The RAF was bombing some German industrial centers; - The nominally neutral US was progressively involved in the Battle of the Atlantic; -- The Black May for the U-boats, losing their three top aces; -- The Bismarck was sunk; -- The US destroyer Niblack had reportedly (possibly mistakenly) attacked a German U-boat, - A British attack to eastern Cyrenaica (Brevity) was beaten by the forces of Rommel (Skorpion); - The rebellion of Rashid Ali was being crushed in Iraq by the British; -- The French (Vichy) Syria allowed the Axis air forces to back the Iraqi rebellion; - The last Italian forces were crushed at East Africa; - The Reichminister Rudolf Hess had "escaped" to the UK; - 75% of the German overseas imports came from the USSR; -- The Soviet-Japanese neutrality pact had been signed; -- There was an immense concentration of German forces in the East (already some 120 divisions); -- Enthusiastically backed by Finland & Romania; -- Russian defenses were being moved from the Stalin Line to the Molotov Line; -- The Polish resistance began operation N (sabotage); -- Ghettos & concentration camps were already flourishing all along the occupied Europe; -- Aktion 14f13, the "special treatment" (elimination) of unfit concentration camp prisoners began; - From the Franco-Thai War, the Japanese had expanded their influence to both Indochina & Thailand; - The IJA was fiercely attacking Shanxi (NW China). Contrary to common misconception and after reviewing the contemporary weather conditions, Col. David Glantz concluded that Barbarossa was not feasible previous to late June as historically happened, in spite of the Balkan campaign. ------------- Any history is as good as the evidence it is based on There are no human races |
Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2012 at 22:54
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That's right, it will fit better in the Alternative History Sub-forum, so if there aren't any objections I'm going to move it there.
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Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2012 at 22:56
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That Wolf of mine says do it. ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2012 at 23:01
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Done.
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Posted By: Don Quixote
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2012 at 23:08
Thank you for this detailed and wide-scoped summary of the situation at the time, Sylla1 .------------- |
Posted By: Sylla1
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2012 at 02:46
Back to the OP, time was still working against the III Reich, even without the Soviet Union; the British Empire controlled like one fifth of the population of the world, more than half billion people; along WW2 the UK alone mobilized some 6,500,000 men, and the Empire as a whole some 12,000,000; the European Axis had a greater industrial capacity (like 50% more steel produced) byt such advantage was vastly overcompensated by the US producing already backing Britain; its full involvement in the war was just a matter of time. Not to mention the help of other colonial empires (especially the French) and the resources from neutral nations (inaccessible for the European Axis). And of course, the Soviet Union (in spite of any diplomacy, still the natural enemy of the Nazism) was a proverbial Damocles' Sword perennially at the back of the Reich. The radicalization of the war, the harsh German rule over the conquered populations and the brutal persecution of the Jewish and Slavic populations had already made any possibility of a negotiated peace extremely unlikely. ------------- Any history is as good as the evidence it is based on There are no human races |