The Knights Templar
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: Alternative History
Forum Discription: Discussion of Unorthodox Historical Theories & Approaches
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=30339
Printed Date: 25-Apr-2024 at 15:03
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: The Knights Templar
Posted By: kut_throat
Subject: The Knights Templar
Date Posted: 03-Oct-2011 at 00:24
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I have been doing some independent research on the Knights Templar after getting into them through books and movies. This Guild intriged me, so I have been following the history of the Templar Knights. Through my research I have found that there may be evidance that a small handfull of Knights who escaped the arrestes with some of the secrets and/or treasures either to Scotland or Scandinavia, as well as merging with other franternities such as the Free Masons. But there are some therories that I have come up with after digging around and reading many different articiles of the history of The Knights Templar. One thing that I have found to be very odd is that both Pope Clement and King Phillip both died within a year after the arrests of a very large amount Knights. I haven't been able to find any evidence to to back this up but I believe that the Knights Templar had a handful of assassin's that were similar today mercinaries. I wonder if those who escaped persicution ended up being the ones who murdered those responsible for disbanding the Templar Knights. But did the Templar Knights have assassins in their ranks? And did the Knights make it to Amercia with the Scandinavians who ventured to America? What do you think?
(Sorry for the misspellings)
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Replies:
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 07-Oct-2011 at 20:39
Highly unlikely. If the Templars did colonise America Columbus would have found an advanced society with iron weapons rather than Indians who lived very much the same as they did during the Stone Age
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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 07-Oct-2011 at 21:05
Agreed. That's been a nice to go to.. catch can as will.... theory that just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Given the readily available options for the order that were not only closer to home (Spain in particular where mainstream agrees they were rolled into other orders and or Switzerland etc.) but even under guise; would have supported their continued now forced clandestine activities and their command and control of their wealth and economic enterprises.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 09-Oct-2011 at 12:49
A tidbit. http://www.heritagedaily.com/2011/10/royston-cave-%E2%80%93-a-knight-templar-mystery-of-history/ - http://www.heritagedaily.com/2011/10/royston-cave-%E2%80%93-a-knight-templar-mystery-of-history/
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 09-Oct-2011 at 20:47
That's where my dad lives. He took me to that cave when i was a small child. The dates being 1550 rather than 1350 makes sense. Perhaps they were left by an early visitor?
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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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Posted By: claymore
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2011 at 17:30
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STORY GOES THAT THE TEMPLERS DID GET TO AMERICA. BUT DID NOT SURVIVE LONG AS TO MAKE AN IMPACT TEMPLER WRITINGS ARE ON GRAVE STONES IN NORTH AMERICA
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Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2011 at 20:56
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It was not impossible for them sail west given the tech.....but probable? Given the alternatives? No. Sail westward into the unknown and you lose what's left of your power and influence in an already well established hierarchy of feudalism and the perks and privileges associated with it. Better to be assimilated into orders that remained within the acceptable order of the day and exert your influence clandestinely. Not to mention continue to exert control of the aforementioned without the risk associated. That comes later as a result of a myriad of reasons associated with medieval international realpolitik.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Posted By: unclefred
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2011 at 12:28
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Agreed CV, it makes absolutely no sense for them to sail off into the unknown. For what reason, to set up banking institutions for the stone age tribes? Certainly the available history supports what you pointed out.
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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2011 at 14:01
Will western governments do the same with modern way Templer Knights,green money loaners,bankers as Philip IV and Pope Clement?
http://www.mygen.com/users/bruce/myths.html - http://www.mygen.com/users/bruce/myths.html
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/templars.html - http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/templars.html
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Posted By: claymore
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2011 at 15:36
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i dont disagree whith everything you all say, but if legend is true the templers were hiding something ,if so what better place than america at that time.
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Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2011 at 15:51
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The obvious. Iow. Which is to say any vault in any church...monastery.... castle fortification.....etc. in Spain or elsewhere. Where convenience allows for it's security and control by the order representatives. And which they could more easily physically identify or confirm it's existence or audit it's value without having to travel 3000 miles to the west. Common sense dictates that a massive amount of physical monetary wealth could not easily be accessed hidden in some cave in the Appalachia for usage on the continent of Europe.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2011 at 19:46
I don't buy it either. The templars could, and did, find shelter in neutral countries and remote areas, including England, Portugal, and parts of eastern Germany
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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2011 at 00:22
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try eastern European countries including Russia!They are on one of Baltic countries flag.
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Posted By: claymore
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2011 at 15:29
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hopfully someday we will find out if they did or didn't i will keep an open mind,logic is not always the answer. how many times has history told us this was more logical only to find out different years later
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Posted By: Chookie
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2011 at 15:43
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis
It was not impossible for them sail west given the tech.....but probable? Given the alternatives? No. |
Agreed as farv as it goes.
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis
Sail westward into the unknown and you lose what's left of your power and influence in an already well established hierarchy of feudalism and the perks and privileges associated with it. |
But it wasn't unknown. Despite what we read in the history books, the existence of "lands across the sea" was well known to fishermen and sailors. The Portuguese had been fishing the Grand Banks for centuries, the Norse had been in Greenland for centuries and had explored Vinland, Helluland and Markland. It's possible there were some Templar-type people along on Prince Henry Sinclair's expedition in 1398.....
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For money you did what guns could not do.........
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Posted By: claymore
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2011 at 15:54
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were the sinclair family nights templer or a just a story
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Posted By: Karalem
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2011 at 15:56
btw, how comes Columbus expected to find Indians on the other side. He must have known that the world was a globe. Copernicus was born in 1473, 19 years before the discovery, and his works appeared after the date.
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Posted By: claymore
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2011 at 16:17
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never new columbus expected to find indians as such had he been a viking he would have , they got there first drawing on a grave in norway with indian like apearence
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Posted By: Karalem
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2011 at 16:31
He expected to find Indians from India as the story goes. One reason for the expedition was to find a shorter route to India. So he took for granted that he was sailing round the globe.
Native Americans dont particulary look like Indians, although for a European at that time someone with exotic looks could be put into one bag.
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Posted By: Karalem
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2011 at 16:38
Vikings were often capers working for governments and merchants, that is when they were no busy attacking them. Never heard they could have been ex-Templars in their alternative incarnation. its worth considering.
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Posted By: claymore
Date Posted: 16-Oct-2011 at 08:13
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one thing i always wonderd , when history started talking about templers not sure on that date, could they have taken the form of a relegious order from another culture ,romans and ancient egypt being example
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Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 16-Oct-2011 at 10:02
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who did like to talk about ancestors as usurers and extortioners?But knights that have fought for religious causes will!Maybe I am right or wrong?!?One of the Pope's was pirate first as it have been known by us?!?
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Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 16-Oct-2011 at 12:12
Originally posted by Chookie
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis
It was not impossible for them sail west given the tech.....but probable? Given the alternatives? No. |
Agreed as far as it goes.
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis
Sail westward into the unknown and you lose what's left of your power and influence in an already well established hierarchy of feudalism and the perks and privileges associated with it. |
But it wasn't unknown. Despite what we read in the history books, the existence of "lands across the sea" was well known to fishermen and sailors. The Portuguese had been fishing the Grand Banks for centuries, the Norse had been in Greenland for centuries and had explored Vinland, Helluland and Markland. It's possible there were some Templar-type people along on Prince Henry Sinclair's expedition in 1398.....
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I'm not arguing with the possibility of it Chookie nor am I denying the earlier voyages and attempts at colonization. What I question is whether or not it would have been practical for the order to have done so. And maintained their ongoing activities, under the guise of other orders, with the primary mechanism of their control...ie. wealth and associated records of banking..copies of letters of credit etc.. 3000 miles west. I doubt it highly. What oft is forgotten is that by decree properties in many cases not in France were transferred to the order of St. John for control and accumulation of wealth and distribution. Well as noted above many Templars ended up in the Hospitallers, if not the Order of Christ. Common sense then again supports the conclusion that the order now under the control of their brother orders leadership in the main will do what I have previously suggested. As for Sinclair's alleged voyage...it remains just that at this point. Alleged. Personally, I'd like to believe it. But I need more then what I have studied from Forster and the Zeno brothers. Or the carvings at the chapel. Otoh their claim to have Templar connections etc...is much more credible. First where is the historical proofs and or verification and or disclosure by the Prince? there are none. Understandable if secrecy was a primary consideration but it still weakens the case. Secondly if they were Templars why testify against brother Templars as has been pointed out by Rails unless it again was for the sake non-disambiguation and or disinformation. Great conspiracist stuff and like all good ones, probably has many elemental of yet unproven or disclosed fact. As I noted I am all for the Sinclairs and a undiscovered explanation.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Posted By: claymore
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2011 at 12:47
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has it been proved that there is a link between the templers and modern freemasons
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Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2011 at 15:54
Depends on your belief in the veracity of the sources and claimants.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
|
Posted By: Chookie
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2011 at 16:45
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis
Originally posted by Chookie
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis
It was not impossible for them sail west given the tech.....but probable? Given the alternatives? No. |
Agreed as far as it goes.
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis
Sail westward into the unknown and you lose what's left of your power and influence in an already well established hierarchy of feudalism and the perks and privileges associated with it. |
But it wasn't unknown. Despite what we read in the history books, the existence of "lands across the sea" was well known to fishermen and sailors. The Portuguese had been fishing the Grand Banks for centuries, the Norse had been in Greenland for centuries and had explored Vinland, Helluland and Markland. It's possible there were some Templar-type people along on Prince Henry Sinclair's expedition in 1398.....
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I'm not arguing with the possibility of it Chookie nor am I denying the earlier voyages and attempts at colonization. What I question is whether or not it would have been practical for the order to have done so. And maintained their ongoing activities, under the guise of other orders, with the primary mechanism of their control...ie. wealth and associated records of banking..copies of letters of credit etc.. 3000 miles west. I doubt it highly. What oft is forgotten is that by decree properties in many cases not in France were transferred to the order of St. John for control and accumulation of wealth and distribution. Well as noted above many Templars ended up in the Hospitallers, if not the Order of Christ. Common sense then again supports the conclusion that the order now under the control of their brother orders leadership in the main will do what I have previously suggested. As for Sinclair's alleged voyage...it remains just that at this point. Alleged. Personally, I'd like to believe it. But I need more then what I have studied from Forster and the Zeno brothers. Or the carvings at the chapel. Otoh their claim to have Templar connections etc...is much more credible. First where is the historical proofs and or verification and or disclosure by the Prince? there are none. Understandable if secrecy was a primary consideration but it still weakens the case. Secondly if they were Templars why testify against brother Templars as has been pointed out by Rails unless it again was for the sake non-disambiguation and or disinformation. Great conspiracist stuff and like all good ones, probably has many elemental of yet unproven or disclosed fact. As I noted I am all for the Sinclairs and a undiscovered explanation.
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On the point of the bolded passage, I don't disagree - in fact I don't see any point in moving a banking system to a place where the concept of money was pretty much non-existent. The point I was trying to make is that not all the Templars were involved in the business - it would have reserved to the more senior members of the order.
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For money you did what guns could not do.........
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Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2011 at 18:27
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True and fair enough and on that note FYI for all........... http://www.middle-ages.org.uk/knights-templar-banking.htm - http://www.middle-ages.org.uk/knights-templar-banking.htm http://www.liquidtravel.org/maritime-activities-of-the-knights-templar.html - http://www.liquidtravel.org/maritime-activities-of-the-knights-templar.html http://www.essays.cc/free_essays/c4/cay78.shtml - http://www.essays.cc/free_essays/c4/cay78.shtml
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2011 at 19:08
Originally posted by claymore
has it been proved that there is a link between the templersand modern freemasons |
Highly likely. Freemasonry originated in Scotland, a place where Templars were known to reside. Some claim they built Rosslyn chapel
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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!
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Posted By: claymore
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2011 at 12:21
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what i don t get is ,why not start over in places round the world where they were welcome ,those who escaped the bloodbath went to countries which were safe havens ,they had done so well at banking ect everything went underground after that or did they still think they were in danger
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Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2011 at 20:16
They did and they did.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
S. T. Friedman
Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
|
Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 08-Feb-2014 at 19:42
Originally posted by Nick1986
I don't buy it either. The templars could, and did, find shelter in neutral countries and remote areas, including England, Portugal, and parts of eastern Germany |
You're quite correct.
Portugal and Scotland were indeed two countries where the Templars could seek refuge.
It is of interest to note that some of the Masonic Lodges with the highest degrees and the most ancient rites are in England.
I have no doubt that the Templars survived, albeit in much smaller numbers, and probably exist today under the guise of Masonry or something similar.
The English organisation, "The Knights Templar" are NOT the descendants of the original Templars, and should not be so confused.
It would be interesting if the Templars, in which ever coat they now travel, did reveal themselves.
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2014 at 17:00
It seems the so called family name "Sinclair" is but a bastardized version of the real name which was, as I remember, actually Saint Claire/St. Clair, etc.! "Sin" and "St", who would have thunk it?
And there also exists information stating that the Templars controlled great tracts of land in what is now Greece, Albania, etc. acting as the agents of the King of Spain. This occurred during the so called "Frankish Kingdoms" in the area, and even during the invasions and occupation of the area by the Ottoman Turks.
Ron
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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2014 at 19:11
Originally posted by opuslola
It seems the so called family name "Sinclair" is but a bastardized version of the real name which was, as I remember, actually Saint Claire/St. Clair, etc.! "Sin" and "St", who would have thunk it?
And there also exists information stating that the Templars controlled great tracts of land in what is now Greece, Albania, etc. acting as the agents of the King of Spain. This occurred during the so called "Frankish Kingdoms" in the area, and even during the invasions and occupation of the area by the Ottoman Turks.
Ron |
Interestingly, the Family name Sinclair, is said to come from Caithness, the northern most region of Scotland-about as far away from Europe as one could get in those days.
Also, the English (?) family name St. John is usually pronounced Sinjun-curious!
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