Most scientists think that R1a1 is the haplogroup of indo aryans, that migrated from central asia to south asia (pakistan, afghanistan, India) and Europe(eastern and northern europe)

 

as you can see the in the maps below that the distibution of R1a1 is highest in eastern europe/Russia and northern parts of south asia, but how come its lacking in Iran???

 

the name iran translates to (land of aryans)

 

 

 

 

 

Iranian people (Ossetians (Alans), Iranians (Persians) and Kurds (Medes)) in the Middle East don't have that much R1a.

 

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=The+Eurasian+Heartland-+A+continental+perspective+on+Y-chromosome+diversity&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=71c6c4af87148765&biw=1278&bih=571 - http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=The+Eurasian+Heartland-+A+continental+perspective+on+Y-chromosome+diversity&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=71c6c4af87148765&biw=1278&bih=571

 

Here just 1 example how Turkic peoples carried more R1a to Russia (and India)! I have many other examples...

 

 

German nationalists went it the wrong way, they thought germans were pure aryans, obviously that way is wrong. There is no such thing as a pure race, but aryans as a people did exist. Now who were those people is still a mystery, the only thing we have of them is a language groups of indo european languages and genetic similarity between northern south asians and eastern/northern europeans.

Also, you don't take any mtDNA into your consideration.

 

Hey all people in the world are connected with each other. But Eastern Slavic people are more connected with Indo-Europeans & Finno-Ugrian-Altaic Scandinavians, Finno-Ugrian-Altaic Baltic peoples and Turkic-Altaic peoples in Central Asia than with peoples of (north) India.

Can you give me the distribution of Y-DNA haplogroups of India, Pakistan and Afghanistan?

As I have serveral times in this forum, the path of Iranian migration was from the west of Caspian see and Iranians are related to people of the Caucasus, southeastern Europe and of course Germanic lands.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA ) : The greatest density of Haplogoup I is to be found in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina - Bosnia and Herzegovina 65% : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia - Bosnia 54% ^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Pericic2005-0 - [1]} , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzegovina - Herzegovina 71%. ^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Pericic2005-0 - [1]} Other higher than average densities occur in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus - Caucasus : Darginians of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagestan - Dagestan 58% and Abkhazians 33% ^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Nasidze_Ivan_et_al._2004_205.E2.80.93221-6 - [7]} http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia - Croatia (mainland 38% ^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Pericic2005-0 - [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Barac2003-7 - [8] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Rootsi2004-8 - [9]} , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hvar - Hvar 66% ^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Barac2003-7 - [8]} , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korcula - Korcula 54% ^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Barac2003-7 - [8]} ), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway - Norway 40% ^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Rootsi2004-8 - [9] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Passarino2002-9 - [10]} , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinia - Sardinia 37% ^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Francalacci2003-10 - [11]} 42% ^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Rootsi2004-8 - [9]} , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden - Sweden (North 26% ^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Rootsi2004-8 - [9]} , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotland - Gotland & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4rmland - Värmland 50% ^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Karlsson2006-11 - [12]} ), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark - Denmark 39% ^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Rootsi2004-8 - [9] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Sanchez2003-12 - [13]} , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegro - Montenegro 38% ^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Mirabal2010-13 - [14]} , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany - Germany 38% ^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-14 - [15]} (highest frequency in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Germany - Northern Germany 37.5% ^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Semino2000-5 - [6]} ), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia - Serbia 36% ^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Pericic2005-0 - [1]} ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina - Bosnian Serbs 36% ^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Marjanovic2005-15 - [16]} ), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia - Macedonia 34% ^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Pericic2005-0 - [1]} , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran - Iran : in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehran - Tehran 34%, though in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isfahan - Isfahan only 10%, ^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Nasidze_Ivan_et_al._2004_205.E2.80.93221-6 - [7]} http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland - Iceland 33%, and West http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland - Finland 41%, though the figure drops in East Finland to 20% ^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29#cite_note-Lappalainen2008-16 - [17]} .

Southeastern European (Balkanic), Kurdish and maybe Caucasian haplogroup I2 is older than northwestern European haplogroup I1. This does mean that migration waves of the haplogorup I came from the southeast. And not from northwest, like you said.

 

Haplogroups I2a and J2a are closely related to each other, because both haplogroups are descendants of haplogroup IJ.

 

Of all Y-DNA haplogroups only haplogroup I1 (maybe hg I2 too, but I am not sure) is native to Europe. But the ancestor of this haplogroup is from the Near East / West Asia.

The development of the designation "Aryan" is a history on its own.  It was first used as a national self-designation among the ancient Irano-Afghans.  Among the Hindus it was used in the spiritual sense.  Racial philosophers believed the Ariane or Irano-Afghans to have been peopled by the white race.   Modern philologers falsely hypothosized that all the Indo-Europeans had at one time self-designated themselves Aryan.  This is when the term as a national designation extended from the Irano-Afghans to all Indo-Europeans.       

Proto-Indo-Aryan is a hypothetical language.  Some Indologists have supported the fact that Airyana was the homeland of the Proto-Indo-Iranians.  Airyana is another national designation which only appears in Iranian as the homeland of the Aryans.  The Irano-Afghans stayed in Airyana while those who left evolved into the Indo-Aryans.  Moreover the meaning of the term "Aryan" among the Indics also changed from a national identifier to mean "noble individual."  To say that the term Aryan originated in Sanskrit is not really accurate.  Neither Irano-Afghans or Indics used the form Aryan verbatim.  The Irano-Afghans used Airya and Indics used Arya.  The Parthian form is actually closest in resemblance to the English Aryan, but this is just in resemblance.  The meaning is a bit different.  Finally in actuality the form Arian verbatim appeared in Philmond Hollond's 1601 translation of Pliny the Elder's natural history.  It appears in reference to an Irano-Afghan people or as a substitute for Ariana the land east of Persia. Later in 1844 James Cowles Prichard used the term Aryan to identify both the Irano-Afghans and the Indics under the mistaken belief that Aria (Herat) was equivalent to Skr. Arya/Aria.  

   

All proto-languages are hypothetical languages because they're reconstructions.  Due to the fact that both the Avestan and Vedic people used the term "Aryan" it is likely that it was used in proto-Indo-Iranian and therefore proto-Iranian and proto-Indic.  Your right that the term "Aryan" appears in the Vedas.  But even in the Rig Vedas the oldest portion of the Vedas it started to become used in the spiritual sense.  Only in the Irano-Afghan languages did it continue to be used as a national designation where it is still found in forms like Iran and Aryana.  The form "Aryan" also appears in the Gathas the oldest portion of the Avesta as Airyamna (Yasna 32.1; 33.4; 49.7).  

When I say Irano-Afghan I mean Iranic so that lay readers understand that we are not just talking about the Iranian nationals.  Have you ever had a conversation with a layman about the Iranian or Iranic language subfamily?  Those terms can get quite confusing? Speaking to an Afghan or Tajik they'll be like "but we're not Iranian" or using "Iranic" people will be like "ironic?"  I never said Avestan is the origin of Iranic languages.  I guess what your saying is that the Avestan cognate was pronounced "Irya."  It doesn't really matter the Irano-Afghans and Indics both used forms of "Aryan."  Old Persians used Ariya and Parthians used Aryan -an being a plural case marker.  The reason the Iranians don't usually use Aryan as a linguistic designation is because it would be redundant.  Iranian means Aryan so it would be like saying Aryan twice.  But there are instances of Irano-Aryan as a linguistic designation.  And just because the Indics use Indo-Aryan as a linguistic designation doesn't mean that the Indics called themselves "Aryan."  As you can see it would be just as clear to use Indic for the Indo-Aryan languages collectively.  It really isn't necessary to use Indo-Aryan.  This is the stupidity of philologers and Indian nationalists.  The Indics virtually never did use "Aryan" as a national designation.  It was used in a spiritual sense.  It was only the Irano-Afghans who gave themselves the national self-designation "Aryan" up until present day.  So if anyone should be most justly designated Aryan as a people or language-group it would be the Irano-Afghans.  The reason most people don't call them just Aryan is because it is confusable with the Aryan in the greater Indo-European sense.  But original Aryan is used from time to time.   

Saying that Indo-Aryan is more correct is subjective.  It may be more popularly recognized, but its actually quite misleading.  You could also say that Indic instead of Indo-Aryan distinguishes Aryan languages from non-Indic languages have have the same result.  And I'm a bit confused as to what your saying here.  The naming convention to my knowledge is thus: Proto-Indo-Iranian > Proto-Indo-Aryan > Indo-Aryan not Proto-Indo-Iranian > Proto-Indo-Aryan and non-Proto-Indo-Aryan. 

Originally posted by PakistaniShield I stated Avesthan was not the Proto-Iranic language because Aryan is often wrongly thought of as originating with all the Iranic languages, when only one was found first using it.

I never said that Avestan was a proto-Iranic language.  But "Aryan" is believed to have originated in Proto-Indo-Iranian.  Of course Avestan is the only language first using "Aryan" because its the oldest attested Irano-Afghan language, but Old Persian and Parthian and even Osettic use forms of "Aryan" in the national sense and they developed from Proto-Iranian too.  

Originally posted by PakistaniShield But what is clear is that 'Aryan" nowadays is better used as a linguistic term as the people who first called themselves "aarya" or noble are heavily mixed, plus there's many people of non-'aryan' descent who speak Iranic and Indo-Aryan languages but are not of Indo-Iranic descent.

And this is just totally idiotic.  The Irano-Afghans called themselves Aryans collectively.  Their homeland was called Airyana.  The Indics only used "Aryan" as an adjective.  Nationally they were called Purus or Barattas.   Its like one of the few cases where a people's language is not named after their national epyonym.  The English speak English the Irish speak Irish the Germans speak German, but the Indics speak "noble."  You know what I'm saying?  Your right that nationality and language are two different things.  But the language of the Irano-Afghans (Aryans) is called Iranian or Iranic because their homeland was Iran (Aryana).  

"Aryan" is restricted to the Indo-Iranians and most justly to the latter because Iran means Aryan.  But since WWII it has also come to mean white, a meaning that developed because the Indo-Europeans were thought to be peopled by whites.   

Anyway to expound upon my original answer to the original question.  The idea of the Aryans even as a superior race is not totally unfounded.  The Germans were probably not the root race.  They were not the Proto-Aryans or Proto-Indo-Europeans, but like the rest of the Aryans or Indo-Europeans their descendants.  And the Indo-Europeans otherwise known as Aryans, the proposed R1a1a or maybe J2 or I haplogroup just looking at the Irano-Aryans were very powerful, and underrated at the same time.  For example Zoroaster is said to be the most influential figure who ever lived because it is the root of the West's religious heritage and even Islam, but the average individual has never heard of Zoroaster.  This fact has intellectual potential.  Then there's the fact that the Persians established the world's first world empire Persia, the largest empire ever proportionately and to think that they did this by sheer man and horsepower before there were guns.  Of course this fact was overshadowed by Alexander.  But the Greek Empires and Roman Empires which were Indo-European and very powerful.  Lastly there's the language aspect.  Indo-European is the most widespread language superfamily in the world, English an IE. language being the lingua franca and Spanish the second.  There's nothing mythological or fabricated about this.  

I understand that J and R are different haplotypes, but this doesn't rule out the possibility that the Proto-Indo-European speakers were of mixed haplotypes.  Language travels faster than people.  Or is there anything illogical about this?

Yes and No 

even today some nations are really mixed as Greece, Turkey and Iran. On the other hand some of others not that much, so you can see clearly which haplogroup are they as British or Finns (most of these country are isolated or located on edge of continents) 

  

we can't say that Turks in Anatolia come from J2, just looking up map

because

Looking at the map it looks like Eastern Europe has the highest concentration of R1a1a.  And if the PIE people had R1a1a would that mean that they probably originated somewhere in Eastern Europe?  And if this is the case wouldn't that disprove the Anatolian PIE homeland hypothesis?  On the other hand, the reason I brought up the possible mixed origin of the PIE people is because of a paper I read by Michael Witzel.  If Witzel is right, the fact that Anatolia is a mixed population would make it a likely candidate for the PIE homeland wouldn't it?

Why are you just looking for R1a1a? There are also other IE haplogroup just as R1b or I1(Sweden) and I2(Bosnia)

yeap, you are right

Nice map about the isssue. Even Arabs and Central Asian Turks have own subgroup R

Originally posted by PakistaniShield   Anatolia is also in Europe, amongst the earliest European and Christian civilizations, but because it's Muslim today, it's no longer considered Europe although geographically it is mostly Europe. Anatolia has a mixed population in more recent centuries since the influx of Turko-Mongols, Persians, Arabs and other Semites.

That just can be true for Turko-Mongols, not the others. Since neolitihic period, Anatolia has been home for haplogroups J1-J2  

Is it possible that speakers from each one of these haplgroups R1a1a and J both contributed to the PIE language?

Lastly I have a genetics question.  If my Y-DNA is J does that mean that none of my ancestors have had haplogroup R1a1a?  Because my mom has Southern European DNA, but I don't.

Is it possible that speakers from each one of these haplgroups R1a1a and J both contributed to the PIE language? Lastly I have a genetics question.  If my Y-DNA is J does that mean that none of my ancestors have had haplogroup R1a1a?  Because my mom has Southern European DNA, but I don't.

You can't "contribute" to a language except for loanwords provided they don't grammatically conflict with the language borrowing it.

In response to your genetics question, if you're a male you're Y-chromosome is the same haplogroup passed from the father to the son and on it does not change regardless of race mixing. Only mutation change these haplogroups. If you're a female it's different but both males and females also have the same mtDNA passed from mother to off-spring, unless again a mutation changes it.


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Originally posted by PakistaniShield Originally posted by mojobadshah Is it possible that speakers from each one of these haplgroups R1a1a and J both contributed to the PIE language? Lastly I have a genetics question.  If my Y-DNA is J does that mean that none of my ancestors have had haplogroup R1a1a?  Because my mom has Southern European DNA, but I don't. You can't "contribute" to a language except for loanwords provided they don't grammatically conflict with the language borrowing it.

Do we know that PIE is not a creole like language?

Originally posted by PakistaniShield In response to your genetics question, if you're a male you're Y-chromosome is the same haplogroup passed from the father to the son and on it does not change regardless of race mixing. Only mutation change these haplogroups. If you're a female it's different but both males and females also have the same mtDNA passed from mother to off-spring, unless again a mutation changes it.

If DNA can't trace race mixing then don't you think DNA is kind of limited in identifying the PIE people?