Print Page | Close Window

Total Democracy?

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: All Empires Community
Forum Name: Ye Olde Tavern Stickies
Forum Discription: The Mother of all stickies
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29565
Printed Date: 28-Apr-2024 at 11:51
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Total Democracy?
Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Subject: Total Democracy?
Date Posted: 11-May-2011 at 19:58
Could total democracy be a benefit to society, or a hindrance which would slow down political and developmental decisions to a very slow pace? 

-------------
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.



Replies:
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 11-May-2011 at 20:18
It would be a benefit, but only when we have reached a sufficient level of technological progress, created free, renewable fuels and eliminated the evils of capitalism and patriotism, thus abolishing war and exploitation of the poor

-------------
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 11-May-2011 at 20:47
Originally posted by Nick1986

It would be a benefit, but only when we have reached a sufficient level of technological progress, created free, renewable fuels and eliminated the evils of capitalism and patriotism, thus abolishing war and exploitation of the poor

Imagine every decision which is made in parliament having to be voted on not just at the end but at various stages of its development. Do you think every process would slow down the workings of a nation's development? Do you see it as a good thing that everything is slowed down, or do you see the slowing down as a burden on society?


-------------
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 11-May-2011 at 20:51
Total democracy is something to be avoided like the plague!

-------------
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 11-May-2011 at 21:11
Originally posted by Nick1986

It would be a benefit, but only when we have reached a sufficient level of technological progress, created free, renewable fuels and eliminated the evils of capitalism and patriotism, thus abolishing war and exploitation of the poor



Ancient Athens, Greece is probably the closet to a pure deomcracy; whereas, the USA is a Republic or representive form of government.

I would start by studying the history of ancient Athens but I am not sure about modern examples.

-------------
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε


Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 11-May-2011 at 21:33
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Could total democracy be a benefit to society, or a hindrance which would slow down political and developmental decisions to a very slow pace? 


It would be mob rule which would be more of a hinderance in my humble opinion.

-------------
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε


Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 11-May-2011 at 21:40
Originally posted by eaglecap

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Could total democracy be a benefit to society, or a hindrance which would slow down political and developmental decisions to a very slow pace? 


It would be mob rule which would be more of a hinderance in my humble opinion.

Can you imagine what power the media would hold under such conditions, with rule by public opinion?


-------------
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 12-May-2011 at 07:56
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising


Originally posted by Nick1986

It would be a benefit, but only when we have reached a sufficient level of technological progress, created free, renewable fuels and eliminated the evils of capitalism and patriotism, thus abolishing war and exploitation of the poor

Imagine every decision which is made in parliament having to be voted on not just at the end but at various stages of its development. Do you think every process would slow down the workings of a nation's development? Do you see it as a good thing that everything is slowed down, or do you see the slowing down as a burden on society?

When we have flying cars, teleporters, spaceships, modernist architecture, equally paid jobs (so everyone can afford to live well and has a function in society) we're sufficiently developed in my view. The powers of the central government must be limited with as much local control as possible in order to prevent totalitarianism: for example, gun control may be beneficial to the big city (to keep them out of the hands of gangsters) but it would be tyrannical if forcibly applied to the small town (where people use them for hunting and target practise). Every law passed by the government should be either obeyed or ignored by local communities (led by democratically elected councils) depending on whether they are in the people's interest or not (with the exception of universally recognised laws preventing killing, stealing, vandalism, assault or rape)

-------------
Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 12-May-2011 at 10:34
I am overwhelmed by your question.  Have you ever functioned in a large group trying to agree on something?  The more people who participate, the longer it takes to get a decision, and the chances of it being a good decision are increased.   Before we go any further with this, we might ask, where are we going in such a hurry? 

By the way folks, our "Republic" is very corrupted.  I don't want to take this thread off track, so I will leave it that. 


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 12-May-2011 at 10:39
Originally posted by Nick1986

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising


Originally posted by Nick1986

It would be a benefit, but only when we have reached a sufficient level of technological progress, created free, renewable fuels and eliminated the evils of capitalism and patriotism, thus abolishing war and exploitation of the poor

Imagine every decision which is made in parliament having to be voted on not just at the end but at various stages of its development. Do you think every process would slow down the workings of a nation's development? Do you see it as a good thing that everything is slowed down, or do you see the slowing down as a burden on society?

When we have flying cars, teleporters, spaceships, modernist architecture, equally paid jobs (so everyone can afford to live well and has a function in society) we're sufficiently developed in my view. The powers of the central government must be limited with as much local control as possible in order to prevent totalitarianism: for example, gun control may be beneficial to the big city (to keep them out of the hands of gangsters) but it would be tyrannical if forcibly applied to the small town (where people use them for hunting and target practise). Every law passed by the government should be either obeyed or ignored by local communities (led by democratically elected councils) depending on whether they are in the people's interest or not (with the exception of universally recognised laws preventing killing, stealing, vandalism, assault or rape)


That is far too much consumption!  It is not sustainable.   Can you pare it down to what a family actually needs, with consideration of what was thought essential 200 years ago? 


Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 12-May-2011 at 11:56
Originally posted by Athena

I am overwhelmed by your question.  Have you ever functioned in a large group trying to agree on something?  The more people who participate, the longer it takes to get a decision, and the chances of it being a good decision are increased.   Before we go any further with this, we might ask, where are we going in such a hurry?

There's a huge difference between large groups taking a long time deliberating on a point hoping to get a good decision for some aspect to be acted on by others, and monumental numbers of people deliberating on every decision on everything before anything can proceed. Any bad decision for example would become so many times worse because of the protracted methodology needed to act upon it once it has been found to be bad. More over, as a single decision may have knock on effects, those effects would need to be deliberated on and acted upon. The question is, as these procedures are so protracted, which do you spend your precious times deliberating on first, the cause or the effect? If you decide on the cause, will the effect become a cause of further effects...etc...? If you choose the effects first, does the cause further effects? If there are multiple effects, do you find your self in an even more difficult deciding on your priorities? Confused 


-------------
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.


Posted By: ralfy
Date Posted: 13-May-2011 at 11:36
Originally posted by eaglecap


Ancient Athens, Greece is probably the closet to a pure deomcracy; whereas, the USA is a Republic or representive form of government.

I would start by studying the history of ancient Athens but I am not sure about modern examples.

Is it the case that only white, male Athenians were allowed to vote?



Posted By: PADDYBOY
Date Posted: 13-May-2011 at 11:41
Originally posted by ralfy

 
Is it the case that only white, male Athenians were allowed to vote?


True. Even Spartan women had more say than Athenian women.


Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 13-May-2011 at 11:49
Originally posted by PADDYBOY

Originally posted by ralfy

 
Is it the case that only white, male Athenians were allowed to vote?


True. Even Spartan women had more say than Athenian women.

Then the Athenians had a meritocracy not a democracy. So much for it being the cradle of democracy. 


-------------
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 13-May-2011 at 12:37
Originally posted by Nick1986

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising


Originally posted by Nick1986

It would be a benefit, but only when we have reached a sufficient level of technological progress, created free, renewable fuels and eliminated the evils of capitalism and patriotism, thus abolishing war and exploitation of the poor

Imagine every decision which is made in parliament having to be voted on not just at the end but at various stages of its development. Do you think every process would slow down the workings of a nation's development? Do you see it as a good thing that everything is slowed down, or do you see the slowing down as a burden on society?

When we have flying cars, teleporters, spaceships, modernist architecture, equally paid jobs (so everyone can afford to live well and has a function in society) we're sufficiently developed in my view. The powers of the central government must be limited with as much local control as possible in order to prevent totalitarianism: for example, gun control may be beneficial to the big city (to keep them out of the hands of gangsters) but it would be tyrannical if forcibly applied to the small town (where people use them for hunting and target practise). Every law passed by the government should be either obeyed or ignored by local communities (led by democratically elected councils) depending on whether they are in the people's interest or not (with the exception of universally recognised laws preventing killing, stealing, vandalism, assault or rape)


      Before I start first you have to choose about the pills:blue you stay inside,or red,you try to see what the matrix is! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te6qG4yn-Ps - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te6qG4yn-Ps
As ideology,all those ideas above, have started anarchy creators!Non violent but dangerous in time they existed.Marks preached that "communism" would come in technology advanced countries!Allusion of
mass delusion!All those have neglected basic animal part of human being:Animal societies are hierarchy,
subordinated  from  the  top  downward!In  animal  society,guardian of order is chemistry,smelt of alpha
mail/female!Biggest concentration,closest "contact"!Therefore we are overdosed with sex all around us.
First civilizations and last have shared main goals,system would have been preserved out of rational logic
and sense!It is not about technology but who would control supercomputer of tomorrow,Nick It was that why,all societies, had not enough freedom and security for their members!Look Western World today:National Interest,Globalization,Global Warming,...etc.Instead of I/Me,alpha units push in front,our collective interests,as main goals of their nations!Can not predict will we improve our DNA in future but this way leads only toward nests of Ant Queen or Queen bees society!

  


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 13-May-2011 at 19:50
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Originally posted by Athena

I am overwhelmed by your question.  Have you ever functioned in a large group trying to agree on something?  The more people who participate, the longer it takes to get a decision, and the chances of it being a good decision are increased.   Before we go any further with this, we might ask, where are we going in such a hurry?

There's a huge difference between large groups taking a long time deliberating on a point hoping to get a good decision for some aspect to be acted on by others, and monumental numbers of people deliberating on every decision on everything before anything can proceed. Any bad decision for example would become so many times worse because of the protracted methodology needed to act upon it once it has been found to be bad. More over, as a single decision may have knock on effects, those effects would need to be deliberated on and acted upon. The question is, as these procedures are so protracted, which do you spend your precious times deliberating on first, the cause or the effect? If you decide on the cause, will the effect become a cause of further effects...etc...? If you choose the effects first, does the cause further effects? If there are multiple effects, do you find your self in an even more difficult deciding on your priorities? Confused 


I hope others get the point I am struggling to make.

I remember when the receptionist knew everything and could answer all the questions, and everything was managed on a more personal level.   That was before developing the Prussian bureaucratic model to the point we have developed it today.   Now the bureaucracy above us crushes individual liberty and power, but this was not always so.   We made personal decisions based on our interaction with human beings and shared values, which contrast sharply with today's amorality and decisions based on what is written in the policy that defines every detail of our jobs.   Until this change in our reality is understood, it is rather futile to discuss democracy.  
 

I am history.    I am old and so are my friends old and we going crazy with the cold, impersonal, "professional" human interactions that reduce us to powerlessness.   No longer is the receptionist  thinking about the person s/he is speaking with.  No, s/he is thinking about the procedure s/he is to follow.  Trying to engage with this person, trying to resolve a problem with this person, could not be worse if this person were a computer.   S/he has nothing like the power of past service providers, and neither do those seeking service.   Everyone is so unaware of the power they have lost, as though human beings were always so powerless.  And it makes me really nuts that we think the US is defending democracy around the world, when those folks have far more personal power than we do. 

Excuse me, you do not have the paper work that is required to proceed from here.   Be sure when you come back you have the proper identification and your paper work is done correctly. 


Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 13-May-2011 at 20:18
Originally posted by Athena

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Originally posted by Athena

I am overwhelmed by your question.  Have you ever functioned in a large group trying to agree on something?  The more people who participate, the longer it takes to get a decision, and the chances of it being a good decision are increased.   Before we go any further with this, we might ask, where are we going in such a hurry?

There's a huge difference between large groups taking a long time deliberating on a point hoping to get a good decision for some aspect to be acted on by others, and monumental numbers of people deliberating on every decision on everything before anything can proceed. Any bad decision for example would become so many times worse because of the protracted methodology needed to act upon it once it has been found to be bad. More over, as a single decision may have knock on effects, those effects would need to be deliberated on and acted upon. The question is, as these procedures are so protracted, which do you spend your precious times deliberating on first, the cause or the effect? If you decide on the cause, will the effect become a cause of further effects...etc...? If you choose the effects first, does the cause further effects? If there are multiple effects, do you find your self in an even more difficult deciding on your priorities? Confused 


I hope others get the point I am struggling to make.

I remember when the receptionist knew everything and could answer all the questions, and everything was managed on a more personal level.   That was before developing the Prussian bureaucratic model to the point we have developed it today.   Now the bureaucracy above us crushes individual liberty and power, but this was not always so.   We made personal decisions based on our interaction with human beings and shared values, which contrast sharply with today's amorality and decisions based on what is written in the policy that defines every detail of our jobs.   Until this change in our reality is understood, it is rather futile to discuss democracy.  
 

I am history.    I am old and so are my friends old and we going crazy with the cold, impersonal, "professional" human interactions that reduce us to powerlessness.   No longer is the receptionist  thinking about the person s/he is speaking with.  No, s/he is thinking about the procedure s/he is to follow.  Trying to engage with this person, trying to resolve a problem with this person, could not be worse if this person were a computer.   S/he has nothing like the power of past service providers, and neither do those seeking service.   Everyone is so unaware of the power they have lost, as though human beings were always so powerless.  And it makes me really nuts that we think the US is defending democracy around the world, when those folks have far more personal power than we do. 

Excuse me, you do not have the paper work that is required to proceed from here.   Be sure when you come back you have the proper identification and your paper work is done correctly. 

I know what you mean, though I still know receptionists whose eyes are not glazed over when they see you. My point is that even though philosophically speaking total democracy sounds like utopia, pragmatically things would be crushed under the burden of decision making continuously rolling forward at an artificially slow pace. Even on your holiday you would be beset by this crush of decision making which would make it almost impossible to find and time for relaxation.


-------------
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 15-May-2011 at 17:51
I do not understand how people who believe it is their job to please me, would ruin my vacation?  However, someone who would not allow me to board public transportation without the proper ID and who could not make an independent decision, surely could ruin a vacation.  

Why the concern for making fast decisions?  Where are we going in such a hurry? 

What does complete democracy mean to you?   To me it doesn't mean no authority, because that would be a problem, but it does mean limited authority.   The janitor does not make dental decisions that a dentist makes, because this is not his field of expertise, but neither does the dentist drag people out of their homes for dental care.   Even in a democracy jobs must be delegated, but a mayor is not given the right to create new taxes when a budget short fall means either increasing revenue or cutting services.  It is great to be a mayor when times are good, but it has to really suck when times a bad.   I don't attend the political meetings I should be attending, and have my doubts about people having voting rights when they do not attend the meetings.   Knowing how few people actually attend the meetings, I don't think too much participation is a real threat to our democracy.    


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 15-May-2011 at 18:47
Untenable at this point.... the historical record reveals that total democracy is an illusion. And the concept of it is still being bought into 7500 years later. As a species it is.... and has been demonstrated innumerable time in every era.... the inherent genetic predisposition for men to rule over and even tyrannize their fellows.
 
Is it right? fair? Depends on who's winning.Wink


-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: Michael Collins
Date Posted: 15-May-2011 at 18:59
Democracy is a nothing. Benevolent dictatorship would most likely be a lot better than most democracies at any given time.  You'd think the poor fellow would vote for his interests, alas, he is easily conned.

Absolute Monarchy based on Patriotism and loyalty to the country, and the individual culture of the single nation, that's my political philosophy. There may yet come a day. Today, I suffer the inverse. Democracy & Globalization ... Cry


-------------
Is í labhairt a dteanga an moladh is mó is féidir linn a thabhairt dár namhaid.


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 19-May-2011 at 10:12
Democracy is so much more than government. It is a set of principles by which people live.  However, this set of principles must be taught, because people can not live by them if they do not know them.  Since we stopped teaching them, people don't know what they are, and the democracy we had is about to become a forgotten memory.  


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 19-May-2011 at 15:36
The world changes, people change with it.  Prioritys and principles change appropriate to those changes.  It starts to lead back to that wonderful question that we used to get in Ethics 101.  Is an honest person in a dishonest society, maladjusted?

-------------
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2011 at 08:15
In a total democracy are minority interests more likely to be overlooked?

-------------
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2011 at 11:38
Not if they can be taxed.Big smile

-------------
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2011 at 11:48
Al Capone was very undemocratic person in history as we knew it.Big smileTotal what is this all about?As could be seen above,lubricators as Total moves our world on!!!


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2011 at 12:08
I thought I would bring this up, might inspire some folks to join in.  A total or "pure Democracy" doesn't work.  A pure form of either Democracy or Communism doesn't exist.  Total Democracy is usually followed by Total Anarchy, which eventually leads to a new form of government, something that wasn't lost on Mao. 

-------------
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2011 at 22:23
It is an evil... ficitious..... mythology that has caused much pain and loss....this idea of total democracy.

-------------
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: HerodAntipas
Date Posted: 16-Jun-2011 at 22:31
When I first learned about Athenian-style democracy (which, provided the franchise were extended beyond freeborn males, is something close to "total democracy") I was assured by my teacher that it couldn't happen because our modern states are too populous. We can't all gather in the same place to discuss the issues of the day and formulate policy like they could in Athens, a small "fact-to-face" society. Of course advances in technology have swept this objection aside. Thanks to the internet, it's now conceivable that we really could create a society where the "general public" gets to vote on every single policy. Government by referendum, if you like. But I find this a little scary.

I find it scary because, as TheAlaniDragonRising has intimated, this would create a society where there is no difference between public opinion and government policy, and in such a society I find it hard to see how minority rights could be guaranteed or protected. It also destroys any concept of expertise (although in fairness it's not clear how we can attribute much expertise to the career politicians of the real world either!) And, since Athens is really the only thing like a "test case" we have, someone ought to point out that Athenian government policy was crazily erratic, that poor Athenian government triggered the entirely needless Peloponnesian War, and that poor Athenian government further led to Athens losing the Peloponnesian War (which, on paper, they should never have lost).

Something like a republic is better - we basically appoint an oligarchy to govern us, and if we don't like what they do we can kick them in the ballots come election time. It's not perfect, but I'll take it over mob rule.


-------------

******************************

"Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecclesiastes.


Posted By: ralfy
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2011 at 05:46
Total democracy has hardly existed. Likely, we focus more on forms of representative democracy, with government eventually working for or with the financial elite.



Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2011 at 14:05
Originally posted by ralfy

Total democracy has hardly existed. Likely, we focus more on forms of representative democracy, with government eventually working for or with the financial elite.


I'm not too sure total democracy has been put into practice or a good idea for anyone to do so.


-------------
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.


Posted By: Karalem
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2011 at 15:01
Democracy could in theory only be achieved in a completely computerized society, with cameras watching every step, and one stable legislature. Otherwise anyone who takes office officially or through lobbying will be controlling manufacture and distribution. Since economy of one country is dependent on world economy, there is little place for nationalism without war. The less ambiguity the more chance for democracy. I don't get why people set apart democracy and totalitarianism. Democracy can be as totalitarian as any other system.



Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com